Logic amid chaos - the constitution upheld

[Mister Bushice]

Ooooh look. Representatives of the people who still support their constitutional rights to privacy.

House Votes to Limit Patriot Act Rules

By ANDREW TAYLOR, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - In a slap at President Bush, lawmakers voted Wednesday to block the Justice Department and the FBI from using the Patriot Act to peek at library records and bookstore sales slips.

The House voted 238-187 despite a veto threat from Bush to block the part of the anti-terrorism law that allows the government to investigate the reading habits of terror suspects.

The vote reversed a narrow loss last year by lawmakers concerned about the potential invasion of privacy of innocent library users. They narrowed the proposal this year to permit the government to continue to seek out records of Internet use at libraries.

The vote came as the House debated a $57.5 billion bill covering the departments of Commerce, Justice and State. The Senate has yet to act on the measure, and GOP leaders often drop provisions offensive to Bush during final negotiations.

"This is a tremendous victory that restores important constitutional rights to the American people," said Bernard Sanders, I-Vt., the sponsor of the measure. He said the vote would help "rein in an administration intent on chipping away at the very civil liberties that define us as a nation."

Congress is preparing to extend the Patriot Act, which was passed quickly in the emotional aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Then, Congress included a sunset provision under which 15 of the law's provisions are to expire at the end of this year.

Supporters of rolling back the library and bookstore provision said that the law gives the FBI too much leeway to go on fishing expeditions on people's reading habits and that innocent people could get tagged as potential terrorists based on what they check out from a library.

"If the government suspects someone is looking up how to make atom bombs, go to a court and get a search warrant," said Jerold Nadler, D-N.Y.

Supporters of the Patriot Act countered that the rules on reading records are a potentially useful tool in finding terrorists and argued that the House was voting to make libraries safe havens for them.

"If there are terrorists in libraries studying how to fly planes, how to put together biological weapons, how to put together chemical weapons, nuclear weapons ... we have to have an avenue through the federal court system so that we can stop the attack before it occurs," said Rep. Tom Feeney (news, bio, voting record), R-Fla.

Last year, a similar provision was derailed by a 210-210 tie after several Republicans were pressured to switch votes.

In the meantime, a number of libraries have begun disposing of patrons' records quickly so they won't be available if sought under the law.

Attorney General Alberto Gonzales told Congress in April that the government has never used the provision to obtain library, bookstore, medical or gun sale records.

But when asked whether the administration would agree to exclude library and medical records from the law, Gonzales demurred. "It should not be held against us that we have exercised restraint," he said.

Authorities have gained access to records through voluntary cooperation from librarians, Gonzales and FBI Director Robert Mueller said.

[DrDetroit]

Seems like administrative subpeonas solve this problem rather easily. The DoJ has not sought a single 215 warrant, yet the hand-wringers out there would have you think we were living in the Soviet Union or China.

[Mikey]

Seems like administrative subpeonas solve this problem rather easily. The DoJ has not sought a single 215 warrant, yet the hand-wringers out there would have you think we were living in the Soviet Union or China.

So I guess, by your logic, if they passed a law that allowed the FBI, without a warrant, to come into your home and search your personal belongings, copy your hard drives and then line up you and your family and shoot you, would be OK so long as they hadn't actually done it...yet.

[DrDetroit]

What logic are you referring to? because what I posted certainly doesn't lead to the exaggerated circumstance that you posted.

I pointed out two things:

1) Administrative subpeonas (which are legal and have been used for decades) solve this problem of getting records from third-party sources.

2) Despite the fact that the DoJ has not sought a single 215 "warrant", the lefty hand-wringers would have you think the FBI is dragging people off to jail.

That's it, nothing more or less.

[Variable]

So I guess, by your logic, if they passed a law that allowed the FBI, without a warrant, to come into your home and search your personal belongings, copy your hard drives and then line up you and your family and shoot you, would be OK so long as they hadn't actually done it...yet.

You were fine with your slippery slope argument until you dropped the "line you and your family up and shoot you" line. This is why a lot of people don't take lefties seriously, just so's ya know. :wink:

There's really no need for this provision anyway. I'm sure they already have the ability to look at library records using Carnivore or Echelon or a similar system. They'll just look at the records without a warrant, peg the people they want to watch, and then build a case after the fact. It's the American way!

Detroit, in some instances of the Patriot Act, the "they haven't used it once" argument works for me, but not here. They wouldn't ask for it, knowing that it would piss people off, if they had zero intention of using it.

Edit to add:

When I was in the Navy (collective groan), there was a guy in my department that had that serial killer look. He was one of those odd kids that you could tell got picked on his entire life for being weird, and it wore on him to the point that he all but snapped. When guys used to tease him like they did everyone else, or play good-natured pranks on him like they did everyone else, this guy would flip out and say, "I'll get you all! You'll see! I'll make you all pay!!!" Of course, everyone would just chuckle, thinking he was harmless.

We had those bunks that lifted up and had your locker area for clothes and belongings underneath the mattress area. One day I was walking past his bunk when he had it open and I saw a bunch of books with titles like "How to make bombs from ordinary household items". I immediatly went to the Master-At-Armsshipboard police) and told them that this guy was making threats and had these books.

After talking to the guy and flipping through his books, they said that there was nothing they could do, since they were all library-type books and the guy hadn't actually done anything. Of course, I, as well as everyone else, weren't real happy about that decision. The guy creeped us out and wanted us gone.

Time went by and everyone got to know him a bit better and he ended up just being an odd dude that was fascinated by chemistry. We all wanted him locked up or just plain gone, because he was odd, lashed out and had these books, but it turned out that the guy was harmless.

[Mister Bushice]

Exactly. That's just too much power to give people who seek it.

For example, what if I was a journalist, or writing a thesis, and my topic was terrorism and the use of WMDs? I would instantly become a suspect under this provision, because I would be doing research on all of the above.

This is just an example of the Bush Admin showing its true colors and NOT caring as much about our constitutional rights as he does about pushing his agenda.

[DrDetroit]

Detroit, in some instances of the Patriot Act, the "they haven't used it once" argument works for me, but not here. They wouldn't ask for it, knowing that it would piss people off, if they had zero intention of using it.

It would have been perfectly legitimate had they requested a "warrant." That's the problem with this debate is that the Left refuses to acknowledge the FACT that a 215 warrant is, indeed, a "warrant, that requires court review and authorization.

[Variable]

I think it's more about them wanting the best tools to fight terrorism and hate-type crimes and that this gives them a great tool to do so. I just think it reaches too far.

[DrDetroit]

Exactly. That's just too much power to give people who seek it.

WTF are you blathering about? It still requires court review and approval.

For example, what if I was a journalist, or writing a thesis, and my topic was terrorism and the use of WMDs? I would instantly become a suspect under this provision, because I would be doing research on all of the above.

Most likely not. Nonetheless, however, before they could even seek the record they'd have to get a warrant.

Are you, at all, familiar with the Patriot Act and its provisions?

Or do you just spout the ACLU's propaganda?

This is just an example of the Bush Admin showing its true colors and NOT caring as much about our constitutional rights as he does about pushing his agenda.

How so? Didn't Congress overwhelmingly pass this legislation in the first place?

Doesn't the Patriot Act continue to require warrants to conduct these "searches?"

Yes and yes.

The problem is you. You know nothing about this and yet here you blaming Bush for something which has not changed.

Get a clue.

[DrDetroit]

Especially considering that the FBI, without a warrant, can still subpeona third party financial and medical records.

It's hilarious that the lefties are up in arms about legal search warrants but less concerned for the more invasive, less restrictive administrative subpeonas...

Just goes to show the level of know-nothingness of the Left.

[Mister Bushice]

I think it's more about them wanting the best tools to fight terrorism and hate-type crimes and that this gives them a great tool to do so. I just think it reaches too far.

I agree. Just like local law enforcement has been caught using provisions of the patriot act on alleged "criminals"

Like you said. If they want to keep it that badly, they plan on using it.

[DrDetroit]

Just like local law enforcement has been caught using provisions of the patriot act on alleged "criminals"

Such as???

Link?

[Diogenes]

WASHINGTON - In a slap at President Bush, lawmakers voted Wednesday to block the Justice Department and the FBI from using the Patriot Act to peek at library records and bookstore sales slips.

Exactly what "constitutional right" does the government examining public records violate, BTW?