Full Buck Moon Shines This Weekend on Apollo 11 Moon Landing Anniversary

[Roux]

1. I do not know what the moth-like things are. I think I remember something about it from years ago, but I looked online and didn't see anything.

2. Link

And since you seem to like videos, here you go:



3. Link

[HighPlainsGrifter]

1. I do not know what the moth-like things are. I think I remember something about it from years ago, but I looked online and didn't see anything.

This is the kind of thinking we expect from lawyers. No effort at independent investigation. No interest in exploring the mystery. No wonderment. He googled it. In other words, he tried to find someone to tell him what to think. Surely there's an "expert" somewhere willing to explain this improbability, and as soon as an "expert" weighs in, that's the end of the discussion. JSC has been treating "experts" like they're Gods as long as I've known him. That's what happens to lawyers. They stop thinking and get really good at ingesting and regurgitating information. Without a relevant precedent they're lost in the weeds.

My personal opinion of the moths: They are moving under their own power and obviously alive. They might have crawled under a protective cover or something when they're on the launch pad but at that altitude they should not be alive. To my knowledge this is not a pressurized cabin with habitable atmosphere. They should not be alive and roaming around.

[Roux]

Oh don't be absurd. You rely upon experts all the time, and you should.

You get a cavity. What do you do? Do you ask one of your workers to fix it? Of course not, you go to a dentist, an expert in such matters.

You need an oil well drilled. Do you go to the dentist? No, you go to the people with expertise in that area.

[mvscal]

Oh don't be absurd. You rely upon experts all the time, and you should.

You get a cavity. What do you do? Do you ask one of your workers to fix it? Of course not, you go to a dentist, an expert in such matters.

You need an oil well drilled. Do you go to the dentist? No, you go to the people with expertise in that area.

There is a difference between specialists and "experts." "Experts" are typically vaguely or not defined at all and are generally "quoted" anonymously.

[Roux]

In court, ordinary witnesses may only testify as to facts. What they saw, heard, or experienced.

On the other hand, if the court accepts a witness as an expert in a particular area (after evidence is considered as to their expertise), then that witness may give opinion testimony.

There are all sorts of rules on this, but yes, testimony by an expert witness generally is given a greater weight by the court.

[Softball Bat]

1. I do not know what the moth-like things are. I think I remember something about it from years ago, but I looked online and didn't see anything.

2. Link

And since you seem to like videos, here you go:



3. Link

1. Moths are flying around up in "space." Anyone can look at the video and see it.
What has not been seen, ever, is a rocket going from land to space.
Not ever.


2. If you had actually watched the video I posted, you would not have responded by posting the video that you did.

In the video I posted, two lasers were fired simultaneously -- one 14.4 miles away and one 23 miles away.
The two lasers, at greatly differing distances, were simultaneously visible, on the same line, on the horizon.

Mirages are selectively doing that?
Do you really think?

We've entered The Twilight Zone...


3.Your link responding to the Chinese space fakery says the Chinese footage "is consistent with how water behaves in zero gravity, and there is no reason to doubt China’s presence in space."

However, in the video I posted, Don Pettit, who claims he spent a year living on the space station says the opposite.

So what's up?

[Left Seater]

So out of curiosity I watched the 2nd video and as expected it proves nothing.

We don’t know how high the lasers were set up above the ground level. We also don’t know the angle the lasers were set at on the tripods. And while they showed us a map early on of the lake and where they said they would put the lasers, we can’t confirm that is where they are in the final few frames.

Pop likes to talk endlessly about uncut videos and actual prove-able videos, but he ignores those things when posting something he wants to believe in.

Bottom line is, the globe model supports about 95% of observations, while flat earth supports about 5% of observations and requires a huge conspiracy coverup, with not a single deathbed confession.

[Softball Bat]

We don’t know how high the lasers were set up above the ground level.

Both lasers were set at a height of 5 ft.

This information is given at 2:20 and at 2:50 of the video.

[Left Seater]

Wrong. We were told both were set at a certain height, but there is no proof of that. We don't see someone holding a tape measure or yard stick to the laser heights.

Why do you just believe these guys at their word and not anything that would support a globe model?

[Softball Bat]

Wrong. We were told both were set at a certain height, but there is no proof of that. We don't see someone holding a tape measure or yard stick to the laser heights.

I am afraid you are flailing very badly, Lefty.


Real people have done real science here.
They have explained what they have done, they have shown where it was done, they documented it on film, and they then posted it in a public forum.

Two lasers were fired simultaneously -- one 14.4 miles away and one 23 miles away.
The two lasers, at greatly differing distances, were simultaneously visible, on the same line, on the horizon.

This cannot happen if we are on a globe.

It can (and does) happen if we are on a fl@t earth.


Why don't you explain how these two lasers, at greatly differing distances, were simultaneously visible, on the same line, on the horizon?

Give us your theory.

[Roux]

That is explained in my post above.

But I guess if you don't believe in gravity, then the explanation won't be sufficient.

[Softball Bat]

You gave NO explanation for the results we can all see int he video I posted.

You posted a video.
What part of the video am I suppose to notice?
Time stamp?

Or better yet, much better, use your own words to tell us how the results we can all see in the video I posted were manifest if we are living on your globe.

[Roux]

I provided both a link and an article.

If you do not care to be educated, that's on you.

[Ken]

Two lasers were fired simultaneously -- one 14.4 miles away and one 23 miles away.
The two lasers, at greatly differing distances, were simultaneously visible, on the same line, on the horizon.

You remain as one of the lowest life forms by believing in flat earth. You REALLY think the 1st laser was over 14 miles away? And, the 2nd 23 miles away?

As I've said before, I dearly hope you aren't preaching this garbage to children.

[Softball Bat]

You REALLY think the 1st laser was over 14 miles away? And, the 2nd 23 miles away?

They have explained what they have done, they have shown where it was done, they documented it on film, and they then posted it in a public forum.

Since you pooh-pooh it, you must have some evidence, or some anomaly you see in the video that makes you conclude that it the lasers are not 14.4 miles and 23 miles away respectively.

Well... go ahead and tell us.

[Roux]

He's just blinded by his faith.

His interpretation of his preferred translation of his preferred version of his preferred ancient book of myths tells him many things, including the shape of our planet.

And his interpretation of his preferred translation of his preferred version of his preferred ancient book of myths is absolutely, positively, 100% true and accurate.

So he begins with a conclusion, and any facts to the contrary are simply wrong.

There are space balloons that can take you high enough for you to see that the earth is not flat. Should our friend actually go up in such a balloon, however, he would not believe his own eyes. He would convince himself that he was hallucinating, or the Devil was forcing him to see something that wasn't real, or something like that.

[Ken]

You REALLY think the 1st laser was over 14 miles away? And, the 2nd 23 miles away?

They have explained what they have done, they have shown where it was done

Wow... so you're as gullible as you are ignorant. Sure, I could also post a map and drop a couple pins saying this is where I set up an 'experiment'. Fucking idiot. Choke on some kim chi.

[HighPlainsGrifter]

He's just blinded by his faith.

His interpretation of his preferred translation of his preferred version of his preferred ancient book of myths tells him many things, including the shape of our planet.

And his interpretation of his preferred translation of his preferred version of his preferred ancient book of myths is absolutely, positively, 100% true and accurate.

So he begins with a conclusion, and any facts to the contrary are simply wrong.

There are space balloons that can take you high enough for you to see that the earth is not flat. Should our friend actually go up in such a balloon, however, he would not believe his own eyes. He would convince himself that he was hallucinating, or the Devil was forcing him to see something that wasn't real, or something like that.

I think roux is 100% correct with this take.

However, some of poptart's videos raise legitimate questions. Dismissing them out of hand is also a mistake.

[Softball Bat]

Wow... so you're as gullible as you are ignorant. Sure, I could also post a map and drop a couple pins saying this is where I set up an 'experiment'. Fucking idiot. Choke on some kim chi.

Pause the video at 3:35.
It is the view from the Walkers Landing beach looking north, to where the lasers will be -- 14.4 miles away and 23 miles away.


Now look at this picture of Walkers Landing beach looking north...




https://www.coldwellbankerinternational ... nding-road


It is the same place.
And the distances to where the lasers are (Kaslo Point and Schroeder Creek) is easily verifiable.

What is your issue?

Other than... you hate "flat earthers" and we're all dumb and rotten and stuff.


Roux *bumped* this thread, and now none of you (Roux, Ken, Lefty) have produced a damn thing.

[HighPlainsGrifter]

The Aussies living rimward know what's up.

[Left Seater]

You demand an uncut video of a rocket going to space. Yet you accept with no question the statements of these filming the this video because it supports your position.

Again why should we take these people at their word the lasers were 5 feet above the ground and not set at different angles? What did they do to ensure the lasers were perfectly level? What did they do to ensure the were exactly 5 feet off the water surface? Why not put a drone up and show us all exactly where those lasers were and have it fly to the collection point and do it uncut?

But no, you accept it without question when you don’t accept the same from someone with a different view. That says all we need to know about you and “search” for the truth.

[Softball Bat]

Two lasers were fired simultaneously -- one 14.4 miles away and one 23 miles away.
The two lasers, at greatly differing distances, were simultaneously visible, on the same line, on the horizon.

"It's not because water lays basically flat," you say.
"It has to be something else."

What produced the result we see?

Describe your hypothesis.

How is it that this result occurred?

[Roux]

Since you have not bothered to click on the link that I provided, here it is.

Fact check: Laser beam tests done over water are skewed by refraction, don't prove Earth is flat

Isabella Fertel
USA TODAY

The claim: Laser tests show bodies of water are level, which proves the Earth is flat

Scientists have ample evidence to prove the Earth is a sphere. But some social media users claim to have devised an experiment showing the earth is flat.

The post shows a green laser beam projected over a body of water. It also includes a diagram showing how the distance between a straight laser beam and the water below should increase as the beam travels further away from its source as a result of the curve of the Earth.

“Earth is flat. Water at rest does not deviate from level,” claims a Nov. 27 Instagram post (direct link, archive link).

But the claim is false.

Scientists say that the post’s logic is flawed and that laser tests in uncontrolled conditions are not a reliable way to prove the Earth's shape. That’s because environmental factors can cause a laser beam to bend, or refract – especially over water. Furthermore, scientists said that experiments utilizing laser beams in controlled conditions, and on a larger scale than the diagram in the post, actually prove the Earth is curved.

USA TODAY reached out to the user who shared the post for comment.

Laser tests in uncontrolled conditions unreliable due to refraction
The post's logic is fundamentally flawed, according to Oliver Kreylos, a project scientist at University of California, Davis’ Department of Earth and Planetary Sciences.

"’Level’ does not mean ‘flat.’ Level specifically means ‘at a right angle to the direction of down,’” Kreylos said in an email. “On a spherical planet, the direction of down always points – close to – the center of the sphere."

Scientists agree that these kinds of uncontrolled laser tests – especially when conducted over water – are not reliable ways to prove the Earth is flat.

“Lasers, or light in general, behave in odd ways that counter our intuitive understanding that light always travels in straight lines,” Kreylos said.

Various environmental conditions can distort and bend, or refract, the laser beam, according to physicist Jason Steffen.

“Unless you have uniform air composition, uniform humidity, uniform temperature and uniform pressure across the whole length of the instrument, then the laser beam will wiggle,” said Steffen, an associate professor of physics at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas. “When you're over water, the humidity is a bit higher, and so the index of refraction is higher, and it would cause light to bend towards the surface of the Earth.”

Refraction can bend the laser along the Earth’s surface to make it appear that the globe’s radius is much larger than it actually is, or even that the Earth is flat, according to Kreylos.

“If the weather conditions are just right, refraction is so strong in a very thin layer of air above a water surface that a laser beam could in theory travel all the way around the globe,” Kreylos said.

Fact check roundup: Debunking the flawed science behind flat Earth claims

Scale of laser test is too small to show the Earth’s curve
Furthermore, scientists say a laser test at the scale described in the diagram, even in controlled conditions, would not be large enough to prove the Earth is flat.

That’s because the Earth's curvature only drops by about 8 inches per mile, according to David Brown, a professor of physics at North Carolina State University. The diagram in the post describes a laser test over less than a half-mile.

Steffen agreed and said the social media users were thinking "too small."

"If their detectors were spaced every 200 km instead of only 200 meters, they would see the effect that they are showing," said Steffen.

When scientists utilize laser beams over long distances for other purposes, they need to account for the curve of the Earth.

For example, the Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory is a large-scale physics experiment and observatory designed to detect cosmic gravitational waves. The experiment comprises two perpendicular four-kilometer-long vacuum tubes with laser beams running through them.

Because the tubes are so long, the Earth's curvature was a complicating factor when installing them in order for the lasers to function properly, according to the experiment’s website.

“To ensure a perfectly level beam path, the Earth’s curvature was countered by GPS-assisted earth-moving and high-precision concrete work,” the website states. “It wasn’t enough for (the experiment's) civil engineers to smooth a level path and assemble each arm’s tubes in a straight line.”

Fact check: False claim planes flying ‘straight and level’ prove the Earth is flat

Our rating: False

Based on our research, we rate FALSE the claim that laser tests show bodies of water are level, which proves the Earth is flat. Scientists say the claim is built on flawed logic. Scientists agree that laser beam tests in uncontrolled conditions, especially over water, are not a reliable means to prove the Earth's shape due to atmospheric refraction. Furthermore, scientists say the test outlined in the post’s diagram is not at a large enough scale to show the Earth’s curve.

Our fact-check sources:

USA TODAY, Nov. 17, Fact check: Ample evidence the Earth is round and rotating, contrary to persistent social media claims

Oliver Kreylos, Dec. 2, Email exchange with USA TODAY
American Meteorological Society, accessed Dec. 2, Atmospheric refraction

Jason Steffen, Dec. 2, Phone interview with USA TODAY
David Brown, Dec. 2, Email exchange with USA TODAY

Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory, accessed Dec. 2, Ultra-High Vacuum

LIGO, accessed Dec. 2, Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory

[Softball Bat]

The link you posted, as well as the video you posted, do exactly NOTHING to address what is seen in the video I posted.
NOTHING.

Geez...


If we are on your globe, then how is it that TWO lasers, at greatly differing distances, were simultaneously visible, on the same line, on the horizon?

"Refraction" is selective?
Do you really think mirages can selective produce the result we can all see in the video?

Explain in your own word how, on your globe, the result we see in that video is produced.

[Roux]

Poptart, I'm not trying to smack you with this question, I'm genuinely curious.

Were you home schooled?

[Softball Bat]

Never home schooled, and this take, btw, was not at all accurate...

He's just blinded by his faith.

His interpretation of his preferred translation of his preferred version of his preferred ancient book of myths tells him many things, including the shape of our planet.

And his interpretation of his preferred translation of his preferred version of his preferred ancient book of myths is absolutely, positively, 100% true and accurate.

So he begins with a conclusion, and any facts to the contrary are simply wrong.

I've posted about this at least a dozen times, but this narrative keeps coming.

I became a believer in Jesus Christ in 1981.
For 34 years, as a Christian, from 1981 to 2015, I assumed I live on a globe.

In 2015, I began to really examine the evidence for the globe.
I found it to be laffable.

The globe is a joke, dude.
The evidence for the fantastical claims necessary for the globe to be true are simply -----> not there.

I assume the Earth is flat, stationary and enclosed.
This conclusion is based on evidence and common sense.
It also happens to be what is presented in the Bible.

It is evident from your posts that you have never taken the first step to even consider testing your globe to see if it can stand up to scrutiny.
It can't.

Take the first step.

[Roux]

I ask whether you were home schooled because you appear to lack the scientific understanding that my daughters possessed when they were in the 8th grade. And I swear that I'm not trying to smack you with this, it just appears to be the case.

Further, I'll accept what you're saying as true, that your belief is based upon your observations and not your faith. That's good, and it means there is hope for you.

So since you are basing your belief on observations, can you identify something that would be a test? For example, there was a recent visit to Antarctica (that you had an opportunity to do, but declined) where a flat earther realized that a 24 hour sun was impossible under his flat earth theory, and he no longer is a flat earther. “All right, guys, sometimes you are wrong in life,”

So what would it take for you to realize that you are wrong as well? Seeing a 24 hour sun in Antarctica? Seeing hurricanes rotate counter-clockwise in the northern hemisphere while they rotate clockwise in the southern hemisphere? Being unable to see the North Star in the southern hemisphere?

Those things happen when the earth is a globe, but not when it is flat. But perhaps those are not the test you need. What would definitively make you understand the actual shape of our planet? If you went up in a space balloon, or the Blue Origin space shuttle, where you "could see the curvature of Earth", would you believe your own eyes?

You are a man of faith, and although I don't share that specific faith, I nonetheless respect you for it. You think that your God created the earth and the universe. But with your flat earth beliefs, you severely limit His creation and do not give Him the full credit that He deserves.

[Softball Bat]

I asked you this...

If we are on your globe, then how is it that TWO lasers, at greatly differing distances, were simultaneously visible, on the same line, on the horizon?

"Refraction" is selective?
Do you really think mirages can selective produce the result we can all see in the video?

Explain in your own word how, on your globe, the result we see in that video is produced.

And you responded with these two posts...

Poptart, I'm not trying to smack you with this question, I'm genuinely curious.

Were you home schooled?

I ask whether you were home schooled because you appear to lack the scientific understanding that my daughters possessed when they were in the 8th grade. And I swear that I'm not trying to smack you with this, it just appears to be the case.

Further, I'll accept what you're saying as true, that your belief is based upon your observations and not your faith. That's good, and it means there is hope for you.

So since you are basing your belief on observations, can you identify something that would be a test? For example, there was a recent visit to Antarctica (that you had an opportunity to do, but declined) where a flat earther realized that a 24 hour sun was impossible under his flat earth theory, and he no longer is a flat earther. “All right, guys, sometimes you are wrong in life,”

So what would it take for you to realize that you are wrong as well? Seeing a 24 hour sun in Antarctica? Seeing hurricanes rotate counter-clockwise in the northern hemisphere while they rotate clockwise in the southern hemisphere? Being unable to see the North Star in the southern hemisphere?

Those things happen when the earth is a globe, but not when it is flat. But perhaps those are not the test you need. What would definitively make you understand the actual shape of our planet? If you went up in a space balloon, or the Blue Origin space shuttle, where you "could see the curvature of Earth", would you believe your own eyes?

You are a man of faith, and although I don't share that specific faith, I nonetheless respect you for it. You think that your God created the earth and the universe. But with your flat earth beliefs, you severely limit His creation and do not give Him the full credit that He deserves.

lol


You are not interested in science.

You are interested in dogma, authority, and deception.

[Roux]

I already gave you a link that answers your question. I posted the article, and bolded the most important and relevant sentence. You must have missed it so here is just that sentence again.

“When you're over water, the humidity is a bit higher, and so the index of refraction is higher, and it would cause light to bend towards the surface of the Earth.”

[FiatLux]

I already gave you a link that answers your question. I posted the article, and bolded the most important and relevant sentence. You must have missed it so here is just that sentence again.

“When you're over water, the humidity is a bit higher, and so the index of refraction is higher, and it would cause light to bend towards the surface of the Earth.”

'Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. '

Albert Einstein

[Softball Bat]

I already gave you a link that answers your question. I posted the article, and bolded the most important and relevant sentence. You must have missed it so here is just that sentence again.

“When you're over water, the humidity is a bit higher, and so the index of refraction is higher, and it would cause light to bend towards the surface of the Earth.”

We are not talking about ONE laser, and how it might be that a laser is visible at a long distance, at the horizon, over water.

We are talking about TWO lasers simultaneously being fired, from two greatly varying distance, which are seen simultaneously on a line, at the horizon.

What you linked to does not give any possible explanation for this -----> AT ALL.

It is quite simple to explain if the Earth is flat.


At this point, I think you still did not even watch the video in question.

[Roux]

Why do you think refraction wouldn't work on both lasers?

[Softball Bat]

One laser is 14.4 miles away, and the camera is set at a height of 3 ft. This laser is 95 ft under the horizon on the globe model.
The other laser is 23 miles away, and the camera is set at a height of 3 ft. This laser is 285 ft under the horizon on the globe model.

How is it that "refraction" has worked so that two lasers that vary in their depth below the horizon by nearly 200 ft are seen simultaneously on the same line, at the horizon?


Light bulb coming on?

[Left Seater]

A light bulb is certainly coming on that you will ignore any and all things that don’t support a flat earth.

You claim to examine evidence for a globe, yet ignore all things that support a globe model. Facts are you don’t want to examine anything, you made up your mind and bury your head in the sand to avoid easy observations.

[mvscal]

How is it that "refraction" has worked so that two lasers that vary in their depth below the horizon by nearly 200 ft are seen simultaneously on the same line, at the horizon?


Light bulb coming on?

Lasers are light and subject to degradation and refraction. LightAmplificationbyStimulatedEmissionofRadiation.

[Softball Bat]

[Roux]

You don't even have a functional map or model of a flat earth.


I hope you will directly respond to this:

So what would it take for you to realize that you are wrong as well? Seeing a 24 hour sun in Antarctica? Seeing hurricanes rotate counter-clockwise in the northern hemisphere while they rotate clockwise in the southern hemisphere? Being unable to see the North Star in the southern hemisphere?

Those things happen when the earth is a globe, but not when it is flat. But perhaps those are not the test you need. What would definitively make you understand the actual shape of our planet? If you went up in a space balloon, or the Blue Origin space shuttle, where you "could see the curvature of Earth", would you believe your own eyes?

And I'll answer it for myself. What would it take for me to think that I've been wrong regarding the shape of the earth -- if my friend told me that he saw the edge of the earth when he was in Antarctica, and brought back photos. One of my friends has been to Antarctica several times doing geology work. I'm not sure that I'd believe him when he would first say it, but it sure would call the matter into question. And then I'd figure out a way to get definitive proof to the world. That would be HUGE news, plus whoever would show it would get book deals and so on. Maybe I could become his agent or something.

So Poptart, what would make you understand that the world is not flat?

[Softball Bat]

I don't know what the shape of the Earth is.

Your posts in this thread are LOADED with assumptions, faulty conclusions, and faulty questions, based on things you assume to be true, and based on things you assume I think.

So since you are basing your belief on observations, can you identify something that would be a test?

Yes.
It is in this thread.

One laser is 14.4 miles away, and the camera is set at a height of 3 ft. This laser is 95 ft under the horizon on the globe model.
The other laser is 23 miles away, and the camera is set at a height of 3 ft. This laser is 285 ft under the horizon on the globe model.

How is it that "refraction" has worked so that two lasers that vary in their depth below the horizon by nearly 200 ft are seen simultaneously on the same line, at the horizon?

No explanation for this has come from you, Lefty, Ken, mvscal, or anyone else.
Just hand-wavy wanderings, diversions, and the typical (and predictable) insults.

And btw, as is nearly always the case, it is not poptart who *bumped* this thread and sought more discussion on this topic.

You 'tards keep bumping these threads, and it never works out well for you.
It never will.


Your question, "Poptart ,what would it take for you to admit that we live on the globe" is akin to asking a 9 year old what it would take for them to again believe in Santa Claus.

That ship sailed a LONG time ago, friend.
Nearly 10 years ago.

We (me and many others) figured out the ruse a very long time ago, and it wasn't difficult to do.
It starts by opening up your mind to the possibility that your globe is incorrect.

I took the first step.
At that point, it was quite easy to discover how preposterous the globe is.

Most people never take the first step, and that is why it seems completely unfathomable to them that the Earth is anything other than the globe.
That is where you are.


Look into this...

One laser is 14.4 miles away, and the camera is set at a height of 3 ft. This laser is 95 ft under the horizon on the globe model.
The other laser is 23 miles away, and the camera is set at a height of 3 ft. This laser is 285 ft under the horizon on the globe model.

How is it that "refraction" has worked so that two lasers that vary in their depth below the horizon by nearly 200 ft are seen simultaneously on the same line, at the horizon?

Figure out an explanation.

Then when you realize that there is no explanation for it with your globe, start your sincere research into this topic.

Free your mind.
Right now you are a slave.

[The Seer]

https://www.earth.com/news/universe-is- ... cs-crisis/

[Roux]

Your question, "Poptart ,what would it take for you to admit that we live on the globe" is akin to asking a 9 year old what it would take for them to again believe in Santa Claus.

That ship sailed a LONG time ago, friend.
Nearly 10 years ago.

We (me and many others) figured out the ruse a very long time ago, and it wasn't difficult to do.

Well that's bullshit.

If you got in a boat and circumnavigated the earth like Magellan did, you would still deny that our planet is a sphere?

If you traveled to Antarctica and didn't see the supposed edge of the earth, you would still deny that our planet is a sphere?

If you went up into space, and saw this



are you saying that you would not believe your own eyes?