Fresh Meat for Raiders Fans

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:41 pm

A guy who doesn't think Tim Brown is HoF worthy

What say you? I think 1000 receptions playing with some of the crap QBs the Raiders have had over the last 15 years (with the exception of Gannon) is definitely HoF worthy. But, I also think Art Monk should have been in on the first ballot.

The Assassin · Post by **The Assassin** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 3:03 pm

Funny how an anti Raider site posts this. If fucking Lynn Swann got in then Timmy Brown is a lock. Swann gravytrained a great Steeler team that would of won those Super Bowls without him.

ChargerMike · Post by **ChargerMike** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:22 pm

This clown is FOS.....

Brown has set some lofty numbers in the NFL with 1,094 receptions (third all-time) for 14,934 yards (second all-time), and 100 touchdowns (second all-time). That cannot be disputed. But Brown never distinguished himself as one of the most dominant receivers in the game, which should be the most vital criteria of a Hall of Fame enshrinement.

Naw I guess those numbers don't qualify him for the Hall. :roll:

Fans did not flock to NFL stadiums to catch a glimpse of Brown. Fans never looked at the team schedule and said, "Hey, Tim Brown is coming to town in October, we need to get tickets." If anything, when a fan saw that the Raiders were coming to town they either bought body armor or went on vacation.

Has nothing to do with Brown, simply the criminal element associated with any Raiduh game

Teams did not design defensive packages to slow down the former Notre Dame standout. Brown topped the 100-reception mark only once in his career (104 in 1997) and reached double digits in touchdowns only twice (10 in 1995 and 11 in 2000). Brown's numbers are not even that impressive, instead a mere acknowledgement of his longevity. Browns numbers will seem less impressive in the next number of years as the NFL continues to turn into a pass-happy league where receivers are the beneficiary of rule changes.

When you average out Brown's numbers over 16 years (he played in only one game in 1989 so we won't count that year... The Hater Nation is fair) here is what you get:

Brown's average: 68 receptions, 933 yards, and 6 touchdowns.

Not exactly Hall of Fame numbers. Even his retirement did not garner big news. Instead it was pushed aside with the horse racing agate and buried under NFL stories such as fantasy football, Ricky Williams' weight gain (he must be smoking pot again) and a Steelers fan who was buried in his Rocky Bleier jersey.

Yo genius, how many other WR's played 16 years? That alone is a rare accomplishment.

Somebody send this hack some brain cells, the one he has is lonely.

Joe in PB · Post by **Joe in PB** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:38 pm

But, I also think Art Monk should have been in on the first ballot.

A lot of similarities between Monk and Brown. People tend to remember the last few years of a player who's had a long career more than the rest. And for that reason those last few years are weighted more in evaluations. Personally I think both Brown & Monk should be in the HOF. Brown will make it before Monk (who played in a more run dominated era) IMO.

Oh yeah, Peter King and his opinions carry too much weight. Weight that would be better carried by his shoes.

War Wagon · Post by **War Wagon** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:27 am

Until Otis Taylor gets in, no other WR should even sniff the HOF.

Fuck Tim Brown. Theatrical bitch couldn't carry OT's jock strap

Cueball · Post by **Cueball** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:56 am

Until DF becomes a Jackass, none of those fucksticks belong

Cueball · Post by **Cueball** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:56 am

Wrong forum, you may proceed :?

DallasFanatic · Post by **DallasFanatic** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:35 am

Cueball wrote:Until DF becomes a Jackass, none of those fucksticks belong

Right on Cue.....thanks for the support

Cueball · Post by **Cueball** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:01 pm

I voted for Dan

atomicdad · Post by **atomicdad** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:13 am

don't any of you wingnuts have a life?

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:45 am

War Wagon wrote:Until Otis Taylor gets in, no other WR should even sniff the HOF.

Fuck Tim Brown. Theatrical bitch couldn't carry OT's jock strap

You know.........

Porky Stram is a fucking JOKE compared to John Madden, so save YOUR threatrics, Wagon.

Crime that Porky is in and the great John Madden is not.

Laughable bullsheet.

Tim Brown is a clear-cut HoFamer.

No ifs ands or buts about it.

Ridiculous piece.

........of shit.

Cueball · Post by **Cueball** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:49 am

I changed me vote to DF

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:08 am

Madden can blow smoke up someone's ass all he wants and it's not part of the equation, Paul.

His NUMBERS dwarf Stram's and it ain't even close, my friend.

Hell, it's hard to find more than a handful of NFL coaches who EVER put up what Madden did in his coaching career.

Brilliant, he was.

His career was a tad short.

That's clearly the ONLY reason they can find for not voting him in.

Madden: 103-32-7, seven division titles in ten seasons, one super Bowl championship.

War Wagon · Post by **War Wagon** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:30 am

poptart wrote:
War Wagon wrote:Until Otis Taylor gets in, no other WR should even sniff the HOF.

Fuck Tim Brown. Theatrical bitch couldn't carry OT's jock strap
You know.........

Porky Stram is a fucking JOKE compared to John Madden, so save YOUR threatrics, Wagon.

Porky Stram? Hank was positively svelte compared to Madden.

Crime that Porky is in and the great John Madden is not.

Madden might get in as a broadcaster, but not as a coach, so chin up there fella'.

Tim Brown is a clear-cut HoFamer.

Not until I hear you say that Otis Taylor is as well.

Say it with me..."Otis Taylor is a clear cut HOFamer"...there, I knew you could do that.

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:40 pm

Madden should be in the HOF based on his tv career alone. The guy has been the voice and the face of the NFL for the past 20 years. Add to it his stellar 10-11 year run as a coach and he is a shoe in. I hope they elect him before he is too old to enjoy it or before he dies. BTW, STram got in just 3 years ago? Way to go NFL. Dude should have been in at least 10 years earlier.

Raydah James · Post by **Raydah James** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:26 pm

poptart wrote: Madden: 103-32-7, seven division titles in ten seasons, one super Bowl championship.

The End.

That is a fucking incredible run by anyone in ANY 10 year coaching span.

The hayta's prove themselves to be fucking morons yet again. I guess i'd be bitter too if the face of the NFL for almost 2 decades was a hall of fame coach whose only love was the silver and black....and who routinely stomped the shit out of the competition while he was a head coach (See: YOUR TEAM)

Someone turn the lights off in this thread on the way out.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:53 pm

Yeah, Brown only made the pro bowl 9 times.

Never a great player.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:24 pm

"Good" players can make the pro bowl a time-or-two.

Great players make it 9 times.

Brown would have kicked ass in either league, mvscal.

During a ten year span from '93-'02, Brown averaged 87 catches for 1192 yds.

Game after friggin' game, year after friggin' year, he flat out GOT IT DONE in a big big way.

Greatness.

Don't be a goof.

G.O. · Post by **G.O.** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:50 pm

mvscal wrote:
ChargerMike wrote:Brown's average: 68 receptions, 933 yards, and 6 touchdowns.
And there it is. A very good player for a very long time, but not a great player at any time.*

those numbers are great over 16 years- thats the point, no?

and yes, monk should be in as well. when you retire as the leading pass catcher of all time and with the record for receptions in a season- especially with the likes of theismann and rypien and williams (good, but not great QB's) throwing to him.

Raydah James · Post by **Raydah James** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:57 pm

mvscal wrote:Sorry. IMO, he's just a generic possession receiver who managed to stay healthy and play for a very long time and consequently put up large numbers. Very good player...not a great player.

I'm not saying he won't make the Hall, but I wouldn't vote for him if had one.

Dumbest fucking thing i've read in a long time-figures chargertard would be the first one to utter such bullshit, being that they've had a slew of hall of fame receivers over the years

Greatness, beyond everything else, is putting up those kinds of numbers when the defense has keyed in on you for years. When you have guys like hostetler, george, evans, moronavich, schroeder, and a slew of shitty backups in between throwing you the ball, and you making those tough catches and LEADING your team to the playoffs year in and year out.

Save your fucking argument, mv-I never ONCE saw the opposing teams defense in the early and mid 90's key in on harvey fucking williams, napolean mccallum, greg bell, nick bell, or randy jordan. Only when Nap Kaufman arrived did timmy get a break every now and then when the box would be stacked for the run. Tim also played with NO ONE on the other side of him to take the pressure off (Someone say james jett and i'll fucking slap you) until rice came.

Everyone except chef fan (for obvious reasons) forgets that dude also returned punts for 10+ fucking years also.

Randy Moss and T.O. are the only guys that would be able to overcome that in this day and age and still get those types of numbers year in and year out.

He also never bitched about that role, or asked to rework his contract, or shyed away from taking the big hit to ensure a first down ever. EVER.

"Mr. Raider" will be a first ballot hall of famer-and rightfully so. End of story.

Fuck your empty argument, and fuck you mvpussy.

Raydah James · Post by **Raydah James** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:06 pm

mvscal wrote:Nobody was spending much time keying on Tim Brown either or do I have to remind you that his tenure coincided with, by far, the shittiest teams in Raider franchise history.

Keying on Tim Brown?!?

Ooooo. Heads up on that three yard out.

:roll:

*yawn*

The trolljob is obvious.

Whether your Chargette faggot ass thinks he should be there or not makes no fucking difference. He will be. The End.

Shall we discuss how an average player in Winslow somehow made it in off a few good games? Now THAT is a laughable joke........

ChargerMike · Post by **ChargerMike** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:44 am

KC Paul 3.0 wrote:RaydahFan, I don't know why you feel you have to take up for your boy Timmy....those of us that are KNOWLEDGABLE football fans know the guy is a 1st ballot HOFer, and that's even coming from a ChiefFan. Let it go already.

Concur..end this sucker!

Raydah James · Post by **Raydah James** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:46 am

KC Paul 3.0 wrote:RaydahFan, I don't know why you feel you have to take up for your boy Timmy.

Boredom. Mondays suck.

:D

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:16 am

mvscal,

Curtis Martin, 4th all-time rusher, mr consistency, but just a 4.1 rush avg for his career, and "only" 4 pro bowl appearances.

1 1/2 more strong years from him and he'll pass Barry Sanders and be in 3rd place on the all-time list.

If he stays healthy (and with some luck) he has a shot at passing both Payton and Smith to be THE top rusher of all-time.

How would you vote on him...?

KC Scott · Post by **KC Scott** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:47 am

Madden will forever be viewed as Al's frontman. Right or wrong Uncle Creepy gets the credit for the early Raiders success. At least Madden still has that video game thingy to fall back on.

Regarding Brown: The only criteria most voters use for HOF is stats. How do the stats compare to other WRs that played? We'd all agree Jerry Rice will make it on first ballot, and while Brown has good stats, he's obviously no Jerry Rice.

Here's a list of the 19 Modern era WR in the HOF:

Lance Alworth 1962-1972
Raymond Berry 1955-1967
Fred Biletnikoff 1965-1978
Tom Fears 1948-1956
Elroy (Crazylegs) Hirsch (also HB) 1946-1956
Charlie Joiner 1969-1986
Steve Largent 1976-1989
Dante Lavelli 1946-1956
James Lofton 1978-1993
Don Maynard 1958, 1960-1973
Tommy McDonald 1957-1968
Bobby Mitchell (also HB) 1958-1968
Pete Pihos 1947-1955
John Stallworth 1974-1987
Lynn Swann 1974-1982
Charley Taylor (also HB) 1964-1975, 1977
Paul Warfield 1964-1977

Funny, but when you look at it, none of those name really stand out in my mind as gamebreakers or players a defense had to change an entire gameplan around for.

Final verdict?

Monk has the numbers and doesn't make it. If Monk's not in then Brown shouldn't get in until he does.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:47 pm

What's your answer?

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:24 pm

How would you vote on Curtis Martin....?

G.O. · Post by **G.O.** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:52 pm

mvscal wrote:He's in.

was curtis martin considered 'dominant'? didnt he 'only' make the pro bowl 5 times?

lessee- he had 14 td's his first 2 seasons and has gone over 9 twice since then. his career average is 4.1. sheesh- portis did like 3.8 last year and thats considered crap. he's got alot of yards but on lots of attempts. not sure if that can be considered really dominant. looks like hes similar to monk and brown- he's good- but not great, with greatness only being in his longevity. sounds familiar.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:24 pm

G.O. wrote:
mvscal wrote:He's in.
was curtis martin considered 'dominant'? didnt he 'only' make the pro bowl 5 times?

lessee- he had 14 td's his first 2 seasons and has gone over 9 twice since then. his career average is 4.1. sheesh- portis did like 3.8 last year and thats considered crap. he's got alot of yards but on lots of attempts. not sure if that can be considered really dominant. looks like hes similar to monk and brown- he's good- but not great, with greatness only being in his longevity. sounds familiar.

As if longevity in the NFL is commonplace?

Sheesh.

:roll:

G.O. · Post by **G.O.** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:28 pm

b smack- i know. thats why i'm for brown and monk.

G.O. · Post by **G.O.** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:30 pm

mvscal wrote:
G.O. wrote:
mvscal wrote:He's in.
was curtis martin considered 'dominant'? didnt he 'only' make the pro bowl 5 times?

You think the Patriots made the Superbowl on Bledsoe's flaky performance? You think the Jets being in the playoff mix ever since Martin got there is a coincidence? Martin might not be the flashiest player but he is a very clear, undeniable difference maker. Both of those teams were perennial bottom feeders prior to his arrival.

Brown, on the other hand, hasn't made that kind of difference. Part of that is due to the nature of his position and the rest is due to the fact that he isn't and never was a game breaker.

and this brings us to monk and his 4 super bowls....

G.O. · Post by **G.O.** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:15 pm

one could argue monk was the best offensive player on those skins super bowl teams- riggins being the only other player in the hall or likely to get in. who knows if the skins would have won 3 championships without him? i'm not sure there is much difference at all between your argument for martin and mine for monk- or brown. they had their individual moments, but longevity- being very good over a long period of time- is the most impressive thing about their careers. what records does martin hold? monk had 2 very impressive ones when he played.

a huge pile of numbers means nothing? hmmm...dunno about that.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:45 am

Monk ended his career with more receptions than any previous player in league history.

Brown ended his 3rd, behind just Jerry Rice and Cris Carter.

Also, as James noted, and folks tend to forget, Brown was one of the league's best punt returners for nearly a decade.

Dante Hall had a 10.1 yds per return avg last year. Tim Brown averaged 10.3 during an 8-year span in his early years.

Anyone not seeing fit to vote these guys (Brown, Monk) into the hall is simply trying too damn hard, IMO.

Your gonna have a pretty damn small HoF if you keep players like this out.

Hell, you better go in and yank 'bout half of the current HoFamers out in that case.

Bunch of half-fucks in there compared to these two dudes.

Raydah James · Post by **Raydah James** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:02 am

poptart wrote:
Dante Hall had a 10.1 yds per return avg last year. Tim Brown averaged 10.3 during an 8-year span in his early years.

Oh yeah, he also had 41 kickoff returns for 1235 yards, a 25.2 average, and 1 touchdown.

Homeboy had 42 100-yard games as well.

and when needed at the end of his career, returned punts again and had a 15+ return average (The big one coming against the chefs.....buwahahaha)

Hell, you better go in and yank 'bout half of the current HoFamers out in that case.

Bunch of half-fucks in there compared to these two dudes.

RACK

G.O. · Post by **G.O.** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:27 am

mvscal wrote:
poptart wrote:Hell, you better go in and yank 'bout half of the current HoFamers out in that case.

Believe me, I'd like to.

well, at least youre not just hatin on monk and brown if youre being consistently picky.

one more thing about monk- not only did he retire with more receptions than any WR in the history of the league- which speaks obviously of his longevity- he also held the record for years for the most receptions in a season, which has nothing to do with just hanging around for a long time. he's got both bases pretty well covered i think- longevity and a measure of dominance. if martin retires with similar records, then i see your argument, if not, monks individual accomplishments- as well as team accomplishment- dwarf martins'.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:28 am

Here I am looking for an opportunity to pile on Faiderfan and I am stuck reading this thread.

Fuck you Mvscal, you have forced me to rack something named "Poptart."

Assclown.

Your entire argument is a fucking joke, no need to repeat the points that have already been carved into the cheeks on each side of your freely bleeding ass.

There are about 10 billion reasons to pile on Faiderfan, this isn't one of them. Brown is a hall of famer bottom line.

Hapday · Post by **Hapday** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:05 pm

mvscal wrote:Monk is essentially the same type of player. A huge pile of numbers means absolutely nothing to me.

How dependent on Monk were those teams for their success? Was he the "missing ingredient" that made those Redskin teams go? Could he turn a mediocre team into a competitive team? Could he get a competitive team over the top?

You make some good points, however if you can't base a majority of consideration on stats then you are left with strictly subjective opinion.

Nixhex · Post by **Nixhex** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:15 pm

Heard an interesting analogy today.

Tim Brown = Raphael Palmeiro

Both have great stats but were not one of the top 3 at their position for the bulk of their career.

HOF'ers? Yes. Has their respective Hall of Fames become watered down? Yes.

Doesn't matter though. They will both get in.