MVP Race

Adelpiero · Post by **Adelpiero** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:24 pm

Jones might win it, like chipper did a few years ago.

he went nutz the last 2 months. his huge homers in NY, set him up, the east coast media fell in love with chipper. he became the #1 contender, when he wasn't even on the top 5 list.

Pujols is keeping his pace, cards winning(ho hum to east coasters)

Jones keeps crushing homers(east coasters and chicks dig the long ball)

Unless Pujols starts to tear it up, i think the Media Darling(now everyone is sucking Jones cock on ESPN) will steal votes to win it!

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:20 pm

Adelpiero wrote:Pujols is keeping his pace, cards winning(ho hum to east coasters)

Jones keeps crushing homers(east coasters and chicks dig the long ball)

Unless Pujols starts to tear it up, i think the Media Darling(now everyone is sucking Jones cock on ESPN) will steal votes to win it!

This is my point though. Pujols is slighted a bit because he's not playing in meaningful games. Jones is still in the heart of the pennant chase. The Braves have the Marlins breathing down their necks. I do think Pujols' performance is taken for granted but Jones is stepping up and producing for a team that doesn't have the supporting cast that Pujols has in St. Louis. The Braves have suffered through numerous injuries, the rotation has been unstable and they still don't know who their closer is going to be. Jones has been a constant for the Braves as they hold onto the NL East lead. Pujols may get overlooked again this year unfortunately...not because of the East Coast bias or the chicks love the longball argument...just simply because he doesn't have to be an MVP down the stretch. That's why the AL race is still going...A-Rod, Ortiz, and Guerrero are all involved in the pennant chase and they're MVP candidates. No talks about an MVP candidate from the White Sox, do they? Pujols has been an awesome player since he's broken in...he doesn't need an MVP to validate that fact.

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:47 am

Shoalz, what exactly does validation have to do with the price of chicklets in Tunisia? Seriously, that is about the shittiest argument I have read in ages. That's actually worse than the argument you tried to make for Unit winning the CY last year. Yes, it is that bad.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:33 am

rozy wrote:Shoalz, what exactly does validation have to do with the price of chicklets in Tunisia? Seriously, that is about the shittiest argument I have read in ages. That's actually worse than the argument you tried to make for Unit winning the CY last year. Yes, it is that bad.

There was no reaching you last year with Johnson over Clemens...I'm not even going to bother getting into it with you on this one. We'll just see how things play out. If the Braves fold down the stretch and Marlins or Phillies win the division, I'll back off on my Jones argument and endorse Pujols. There really is only two choices for the NL MVP unless Cabrera goes nuts and the Marlins leap frog the Braves. The battle in the AL is still wide open with Rodriguez, Ortiz and Guerrero. It pretty much comes down to which team gets in.

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:32 am

Don't get off topic now that you've stuck your foot in your mouth. What does validation have to do in Pujols' case? What exactly does the best player in baseball have to validate?

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:14 pm

rozy wrote:Don't get off topic now that you've stuck your foot in your mouth. What does validation have to do in Pujols' case? What exactly does the best player in baseball have to validate?

Are we debating who the best player in baseball is or who is the most valuable player in the NL for 2005? I'm not saying Pujols isn't the best player in baseball but I'm saying Andruw Jones has been more valuable to a depleted Braves squad this season than Albert Pujols has been to a more balanced and complete Cardinals team. Pujols is all-world...I'm not arguing that. The award is for the most valuable player, not best player.

Pujols has been overlooked in the past couple of years because of Barry's bloated stats but that doesn't make Pujols any less of a player. In the context of which player means more to their team than the other...Pujols is very valuable to the Cardinals but they also have the leading contender for the NL Cy Young as well as 3 other pitchers with at least 14 wins. On the other hand, you have Atlanta where if you took Jones' bat and glove out the lineup, you have the Richmond Braves and their pitching staff has suffered through bullpen struggles and Smoltz is the only starter not to land on the DL this year.
Jones has done more for his team than Pujols has. To say Pujols is the biggest reason the Cardinals are 13 games ahead of Houston is overlooking the fact they have the best ERA in baseball. Not Houston, the Cardinals staff is the best in all of baseball. I certainly wasn't questioning Pujols' abilities and production in my argument...the best player is baseball isn't always necessarily the most valuable player to their respective team if they have a stronger supporting cast around him. I would argue that if Pujols missed most of this year, the pitching staff would still be able to keep the Cardinals on top of the division because it's most complete team in baseball. Pujols isn't carrying the Cardinals single-handedly like Jones is doing for the Braves.

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 12:57 am

depleted Braves squad

Fallacy. Andruw Jones has had more opportunities to drive runners in yet he's managed a .211 avg with runners in scoring position. what part of that is MVP?

Degenerate · Post by **Degenerate** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:56 pm

Seriously, what's the debate here? Pujols is the offensive engine of the best team in baseball. Case closed.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:34 pm

Degenerate wrote:Seriously, what's the debate here? Pujols is the offensive engine of the best team in baseball. Case closed.

Keep ignoring the fact the Cardinals lead the majors in ERA...Pujols isn't doing this alone.

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:53 pm

Shoalzie wrote:Pujols isn't doing this alone.

As opposed to Jones who got 125 rbis without anyone's help.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:21 pm

Bizzarofelice wrote:
Shoalzie wrote:Pujols isn't doing this alone.
As opposed to Jones who got 125 rbis without anyone's help.

He's the one driving in the runs for the Braves. The next highest is LaRoche with 71. Chipper has played only 98 games. One thing the Braves probably have over the Cards is the speed at the top of the lineup. Furcal and Giles are tremendous tablesetters...combining for 58 steals and 188 runs scored. Franco has had his moments during the season and Francoeur was a phenomenon for several weeks but has leveled off since.

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:27 pm

Shoalzie wrote:Furcal and Giles are tremendous tablesetters...combining for 58 steals and 188 runs scored.

No further questions, Your Honor.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:31 pm

Bizzarofelice wrote:
Shoalzie wrote:Furcal and Giles are tremendous tablesetters...combining for 58 steals and 188 runs scored.
No further questions, Your Honor.

Yeah, he's got two great guys at the top of the order but he has no protection in the lineup. He's the only one driving runs in on a consistent basis. Those guys would be sitting there on base if Jones wasn't bringing them in. His average with RISP isn't on par with Pujols (.217 vs. .323) but he's still leading the NL by 14 over Cabrera and Burrell. Jones been a very formidable cleanup man for the Braves. Pujols has done a very steady job as the Cardinals cleanup man/#3 hitter but he's also had guys at the top of the order get on base before him as well...Eckstein (.360 OBP), Walker (.376 OBP), Edmonds (.388 OBP). Most great RBI men have great table-setters in front of them. Ortiz and Ramirez has Damon (.367 OBP / 106 R) and Renteria (.331 OBP / 90 R). Bringing these runners are just part of their job. Jones also does it with the glove...a .994 fielding percentage, 9 assists and only 2 errors. Jones is having a very strong all-around year for a team that, as I've stated over and over, doesn't have the balance of other contending teams.

Adelpiero · Post by **Adelpiero** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:32 pm

.230ish with runners in scoring position??? Thats your MVP???

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:47 pm

Shoalzie wrote:Those guys would be sitting there on base if Jones wasn't bringing them in.

They are still sitting on base 88% of the time as opposed to Albert's 78%.

but he's still leading the NL by 14 over Cabrera and Burrell.

Don't remember them being in this conversation. Do you?

Jones been a very formidable cleanup man for the Braves.

.217 w/ RISP. Clean-up, by definition, is the guy meant to drive in runs. Jones has been a detriment to the Braves stuck in that slot.

Pujols has done a very steady job as the Cardinals 3 hitter but he's also had guys at the top of the order get on base before him as well...Eckstein (.360 OBP), Walker (.376 OBP), Edmonds (.388 OBP).

Generalizations. Once again, Jones has had many many more opportunities to drive in runs and has done little with them. .217 w/ RISP. That's ugly. Jones has had more opportunities to drive in runs yet has failed as a clean-up hitter.

Shoalzie, you've bought into the hype.

Lee is the MVP unless you do that whole playoff team crap in which its Pujols.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:51 pm

Adelpiero wrote:the RISP is finally poking its ugly head!

.230ish with runners in scoring position??? Thats your MVP???

He still leads the league in RBI though, right? Imagine if he was hitting around .300 with RISP...he'd probably have more RBI than Ortiz and Ramirez. The fact of the matter is, he's carrying a team that is holding on first place in the toughest division in baseball.

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 4:19 pm

Jones currently hitting .267 with .213 RISP

Adelpiero · Post by **Adelpiero** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:53 pm

Shoalzie wrote:
Adelpiero wrote:the RISP is finally poking its ugly head!

.230ish with runners in scoring position??? Thats your MVP???

Imagine if he was hitting around .300 with RISP...he'd probably have more RBI than Ortiz and Ramirez. .

Where should i imagine this?? Fantasy Land?

If my Grandma had a dick, she'd be my grandpa! Weak Arguement!

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:18 pm

Adelpiero wrote:
Shoalzie wrote:
Adelpiero wrote:the RISP is finally poking its ugly head!

.230ish with runners in scoring position??? Thats your MVP???

Imagine if he was hitting around .300 with RISP...he'd probably have more RBI than Ortiz and Ramirez. .
Where should i imagine this?? Fantasy Land?

If my Grandma had a dick, she'd be my grandpa! Weak Arguement!

I was just saying. Jones has left some guys on the pond for sure...that is a definite black mark against him.

Adelpiero · Post by **Adelpiero** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 4:09 pm

the dude is on a 4 fer 34 slump in last 2 weeks?

so he's now in the .209ish RISP area??? That's a MVP??

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:10 pm

Adelpiero wrote:the dude is on a 4 fer 34 slump in last 2 weeks?

so he's now in the .209ish RISP area??? That's a MVP??

He's gotta produce for them to go deep in the postseason, that's for sure. They got solid pitching over the weekend to sweep Florida and essentially knock them out of playoff contention. He's not the slam dunk for MVP like you guys think I say he is. He's just a notch above Pujols in value to his team in this given season. I would take Pujols on my team over Jones every day of the week and twice on Sunday but the Braves would not be in first place without Jones.

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:36 pm

Shoalzie wrote:He still leads the league in RBI though, right?

Has more to do with the people getting in scoring position before him than his ability to drive them in. He's already shown that he is a detriment in the clean up role.

Where would the Braves be without him? Maybe better off with someone driving in runs instead of swinging for the fences with a runner at 2nd.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:59 pm

Bizzarofelice wrote:
Shoalzie wrote:He still leads the league in RBI though, right?
Has more to do with the people getting in scoring position before him than his ability to drive them in. He's already shown that he is a detriment in the clean up role.

Where would the Braves be without him? Maybe better off with someone driving in runs instead of swinging for the fences with a runner at 2nd.

Pujols would be cleaning up in Atlanta with Furcal and Giles in front of him but for how as many times Jones has come up empty, he's put up career highs in HR and RBI and that's without having protection in the lineup. If we're going head-to-head with stats, Pujols is having the better overall year but this isn't strictly a statistical battle. There's no question that Pujols is probably one of a few players that are perenially an MVP candidate. It's just when a player like Jones this year has a breakout season on a team that isn't all that impressive on paper and seems to over-achieve, he grabs more of the headlines.

How many people would've thought the Braves would be in first place at this point of the season knowing that they'd have rookies getting significant playing time, Chipper missing a lot of games due to injury, members of the much-hyped rotation missing during different parts of the season and they still don't have a solidified bullpen? The Cardinals were a better team going into this year from last year and they're doing just as everyone expected. Pujols is probably one of the least appreciated players in the game from the standpoint that he's on the best team in the league and he's consistently great. He's the NL version of A-Rod...only there isn't backlash against him.

If I can't get any of you to agree with me on Jones being MVP...you can't question that Bobby Cox is NL Manager of the Year.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:03 pm

Shoalzie,

WTF are you talking about?

Cy – Carpenter
MVP – Pujols
MOTY – LaRussa
1B Gold Glove: Pujols
2B Gold Glove: Grudzielanek
3B Gold Glove: Rolen (look at the # of errors! :roll:)
SS Gold Glove: Eck
OF Gold Glove: Walker
OF Gold Glove: Edmonds

Do I need to even get into the Silver Slugger awards?

If you don’t see it this way, you don’t know WTF you’re talking about. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:02 am

IndyFrisco wrote:Do I need to even get into the Silver Slugger awards?

I bet your some sort of comedian there in Jasper.

Andruw Jones was in the right place. He did enough with it to get people talking, but it is the environment that makes him look better than he is. Furcal and Giles are more valuable to the Braves than Jones.

chowd103 · Post by **chowd103** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:34 am

Shoalzie wrote:

Imagine if he was hitting around .300 with RISP...he'd probably have more RBI than Ortiz and Ramirez. The fact of the matter is, he's carrying a team that is holding on first place in the toughest division in baseball.

That's what I'm sayin' mang.

W/o this guy, the 'Sox are 4, maybe 5 games in back of the Yanks.

Key word here, boys is VALUABLE!!

Normally, I couldn't care less about individual accomplishments. To me, it's always about the team. How they compete and end up. However this guy is so clutch, he deserves it in the A.L., hands down. I really don't care if he doesn't play defense.

Same situation with the Yankees.

Yankees fan can make a case for Mo, but I gotta give the nod to Papi.

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:44 am

Obviously, I've watched far more Cards games than Braves games. Probably a combination of fan loyalty and despising the Braves announcers for as long as I can remember. I lament the fact that WGN shows far fewer Cubs games, but Skip has always kept me from watching Braves games.

Shoalzie wrote:on a team that isn't all that impressive on paper and seems to over-achieve

let's compare these makeshift lineups:

3B: Abraham Nunez (castoff from the lowly Pirates that couldn't find a ML contract with any team this winter)
Wilson Betemit (number 1 Braves prospect in 2001, 2002 and number 2 in 2003)

C: Mike Mahoney (Cubs castoff and thanks to his struggles to bat .100 quite possibly the worst position player in MLB during his time up earlier this season)
Brian McCann (Braves number 3 prospect)

LF: John Rodriguez (minor league castoff...8 seasons in minors doing very little because he can't hit a curve ball)
Kelly Johnson (Braves number 8 prospect)

RF: So Taguchi (average to below-average ML OFer prior to the season)
Jeff Francouer (Braves top prospect)

Four castoffs vs four top prospects. What was your argument again?

How did the Braves pull it off? You think the Braves were relying on Brian Jordan and Raul Mondesi for the entire season? Those old fools were just there until the rookies came up at the first knee sprain (for Jordan most likely would happen when he boarded his first plane).

How many people would've thought the Braves would be in first place at this point of the season knowing that they'd have rookies getting significant playing time, Chipper missing a lot of games due to injury, members of the much-hyped rotation missing during different parts of the season and they still don't have a solidified bullpen?

Same arguments apply to the Cardinals going from a hitting team to a pitching team. Sucky bullpen and 4 opening day position players that were leaned on heavily missing months each. Not opening day starters meant to merely bide time until the rooks showed up, but major contributors went down. Walker's bat and defense are gone, Rolen's bat and defense are gone, Sanders bat is gone and Molina, the backbone of the pitching staff, was gone for months.

The Cardinals were a better team going into this year from last year and they're doing just as everyone expected.

Winning is what was expected. But how they are winning is the strange thing. While missing Walker, Rolen and Sanders, the Cards have resorted to Whiteyball to get runs. Lots of hit-n-run and suicide squeeze plays from the Cards these days. Pujols has 16 steals not from speed, but intelligent baserunning. In fact, the only two times he was caught stealing were blown calls by the umps. Nobody expected any of that except for the winning.

Pujols is probably one of the least appreciated players in the game from the standpoint that he's on the best team in the league and he's consistently great. He's the NL version of A-Rod...only there isn't backlash against him.

Can't really tell from here in St. Louis. I get the feeling I'll tell how good he is later in his career.

If I can't get any of you to agree with me on Jones being MVP...you can't question that Bobby Cox is NL Manager of the Year.

Don't know enough about this one. I'd probably give the manager to Cox and the GM to Jocketty for every year his Carpenter gamble pays off (Carpenter is only making like $6 million this year).

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:15 am

Sorry, Frisco, I think you whiffed. Gotta RACK Bace's effort here. Nails.

And Chowd, it's Papi vs Arod. Winner of the division should get the MVP. That simple. I'm biased in favor of Ortiz but if the Yanks take the division then Arod should get the MVP.

Of course, as I have tried to get you guys on track here, ECKSTEIN is the NL MVP. Hands down.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:56 pm

No, I think Pujols is the MVP. It's strictly a stat award, just like the Cy.

I was just poking fun of the largest group of homers I've ever known, on this board and anywhere else.

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:04 pm

IndyFrisco wrote:largest group of homers I've ever known, on this board and anywhere else.

Cardinal fans, in general, ARE the biggest group of homers. All this "greatest fans in baseball" crap is annoying. This town in general overcompensates for the fact it is dying.

I am not a big homer. To think so you must be projecting.

Adelpiero · Post by **Adelpiero** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:04 pm

IndyFrisco wrote:No, I think Pujols is the MVP. It's strictly a stat award, just like the Cy.

I was just poking fun of the largest group of homers I've ever known, on this board and anywhere else.

that's where you are wrong.

Now if you go to a cardinals board, i'm sure the koolaid guzzlers will tout everything STL, but i look at the team in nonbiased view!

The cardinals are in trouble this playoffs. Their offense is nothing like last year, and their Aces are fading. If Hooston beats ATL, i could see the oposite of last year happening, but this time we'll get 2-1 or 1-0 pitching duels every game.

They have been losing ugly in past month, and unlike tards who say it's cause they know they have everything wrapped up, who are kidding themselves, this team looks bad right now, Pujols is hurting, he's been hurting all year, but he's hurting bigtime, but even he knows if he goes down, team is fucked.

The Cards are going to have to have Carp and Mulder have their A game every night, cause the offense isn't there like it was last year. And we all watched how bad they struggled in WS at plate.

Philly would be a bad 1st round matchup for cardinals.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:00 pm

You forget the Astros bats turn to crickets chirping int he post season. Last year, we had Beltran who was on fire and Kent was kicking ass as well.

We have neither now.

We just don't have the bats to hang with the Cards in a 7 game series. And to be honest, I don't even see us getting past Atlanta. I hate to be so negative, but look at what we've been given in the past decade to go on.

I'd be thrilled if we could make it to the NLCS and face the Cards again. I would definitley make it to a game in STL if I can. (I'll be having my first child this weekend so who knows?)

chowd103 · Post by **chowd103** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:45 pm

rozy wrote:
And Chowd, it's Papi vs Arod. Winner of the division should get the MVP. That simple. I'm biased in favor of Ortiz but if the Yanks take the division then Arod should get the MVP.

I'd have to say that Mo's more valuable to the Cranks than A SCROD.
Big offensive numbers don't always=wins.

<edit> I should qualify this by saying that I agree with you about who will win it. I just don't agree with how it's voted on. It's supposed to be MVP, correct? </edit>

Who is more valuable to their respective clubs?

Raydah James · Post by **Raydah James** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:55 pm

chowd103 wrote:
rozy wrote:
And Chowd, it's Papi vs Arod. Winner of the division should get the MVP. That simple. I'm biased in favor of Ortiz but if the Yanks take the division then Arod should get the MVP.
I'd have to say that Mo's more valuable to the Cranks than A SCROD.
Big offensive numbers don't always=wins.

Who is more valuable to their respective clubs?

I cant fucking believe im seeing this shit-Anyone who has seen A-Rod play cannot, in thier right fucking mind, say that he doesnt deserve the MVP.

He is simply the best player in baseball (besides Vlad).

With his bat, leadership, and insane defensive play on the hot corner he led this underachieving team to the playoffs after a horrible fucking start.

Red Sox fan, shut the fuck up and enjoy sitting at home this playoff season. Dumbasses.

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:15 am

Raydah James wrote:
chowd103 wrote:
rozy wrote:
And Chowd, it's Papi vs Arod. Winner of the division should get the MVP. That simple. I'm biased in favor of Ortiz but if the Yanks take the division then Arod should get the MVP.
I'd have to say that Mo's more valuable to the Cranks than A SCROD.
Big offensive numbers don't always=wins.

Who is more valuable to their respective clubs?

I cant fucking believe im seeing this shit-Anyone who has seen A-Rod play cannot, in thier right fucking mind, say that he doesnt deserve the MVP.

He is simply the best player in baseball (besides Vlad).

With his bat, leadership, and insane defensive play on the hot corner he led this underachieving team to the playoffs after a horrible fucking start.

Red Sox fan, shut the fuck up and enjoy sitting at home this playoff season. Dumbasses.

Not your best week, asshat. Leadership? The leader of THAT team plays shortstop. Bat? Ortiz has how many HRs after the 7th inning? And how many of those tied the game or gave the Sox the lead? Hot corner defense? Arod?

Hell, he's good at slapping at balls anyhoo...

Stick to football. Vlad and Arod are great, but Pujols is top 5 EVAR.

The exit is up and left, btw...

Cueball · Post by **Cueball** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:25 am

Papi has tied the game in the 8th with one of those HR things. NESN was kind enough to flash a stat that 20 of his 47 have tied or gave them the lead. Bottom 9 coming up, Papi due 4th...........

Cueball · Post by **Cueball** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:33 am

Papi 3-2 count: RBI single, game over bring on NY

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:39 am

Yep, was that another game winner for Big Papi?

Timing............is everything. Validation...........is ultimate.

chowd103 · Post by **chowd103** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:43 am

rozy wrote:Yep, was that another game winner for Big Papi?

Ahhh yeah.

Pretty much.

You fuckin' asshat, James!

Cueball · Post by **Cueball** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:46 am

AROD
9 HR and 23 RBI from the 7th inning on

MVPAPI
19 HR and 50 RBI from the 7th inning on