Officiating rant

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:09 pm

OK, first of all, I am completely sure that PSU lost the UM game because they were beaten by a team that was just better that day. I am not going to fall prey to the idea that they were screwed out of a win.

However, having viewed the game tape after the emotions died down, I must conclude something about the officiating in the Big 10:

Big 10 officials are incompetent.

I'll just give two pertinent examples. First we have the Zemaitis strip of Henne that he took back for a TD. The play was VERY close...breathtakingly close. Why was the play not reviewed? PSU fans are "sure" it was a legit strip, as UM fans are "sure" Henne was down. Was there ever a play that screamed to be reviewed more than this one? Yet, there was no review. PSU lined up the kicking team, and hurried in the kick. What - was the replay official getting coffee?

Next, we have Avant's sideline catch late in the game. His foot was partially out of bounds. It was ruled a good catch. Once again, PSU fans are sure he was out, while UM fans are sure he was in. Where was the fucking review? What is review for, if not this play?

I'm not expecting that there would have been a different result in the game, were these two plays reviewed. However, for the life of me, I can't understand why they weren't looked at. Both plays were utterly crucial. If they are going to sit on their hands for these two plays, then my faith in their abilities to sensibly implement replay is at an end.

If these plays were reviewed, I'd have felt much better about the game just knowing that they tried. I feel both plays were close enough to EXEMPLIFY the term "reviewable".

Now another thing...I've got a problem with replay now. If a team can just hurry up and snap the ball - thus avoiding a play review, THE FUCKING THING DOESN'T WORK. Both teams did exactly that in the situations I've named. I think if I were a player on the field in that circumstance, I'd consider faking an injury in order to prevent the team from getting a play off. Many coaches have taken time outs in order to give the officials more time to instigate a review - that is bullshit also.

I'm becoming convinced that they need to give each team a chance to instigate a review. If they are going to field officials that routinely blow calls like this in high profile games, then they need to provide recourse of some sort. Replay itself was an initial step, but to have officials selectively enforce it is not acceptable, and only deepens the problem that replay was intended to solve.

Officiating cannot be perfect - I accept that. Can it be a hell of a lot better in the Big 10? Without question.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:15 pm

Shouldn't this read..."Big 10 Replay is inefficient"?

Don;t flame me if I'm wrong but...

I didn't think it was officials in the booth. Rather, I thought it was "replay specialists" or something like that.

DrDetroit · Post by **DrDetroit** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:18 pm

Okay, so your real complaint is not that Big 10 officials suck at calling a game...though they might...but that the replay officials suck.

I think the distinction is important for the very reason that you later note: Officiating cannot be perfect - I accept that.

I hate this replay stuff. The officials are there to call the game. Let them call the game and let them be disciplined when they muck it up.
based on the experience so far in the NFL and now in college ball, I see no reason to believe that calls in the past that were egregiously wrong are going to be satisfactorily resolved by instant replay.

Replay simply slows down the game and it doesn't address trends in bad calls, like phantom holds or obvious interference not being called throughout a game.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:18 pm

rants are rarely titled or conducted logically. :sad:

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:22 pm

I think that the officiating was incompetent enough that they NEEDED to try replay - but I detest the way they have implemented it.

I agree that they have opened Pandora's Box...but they have some work to do yet. They cannot take away replay, because of games like (one example among many) the 2001 UM/Illinois game - clear and certain travesties. That is by far worse than the current situation.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:34 pm

I still like replay, but I don't like the people in the booth calling for it. For some reason, I could NEVER trust whoever is up there calling for review.

This is ONE thing I like about the pros more than college. I like how replay is not only part of getting the game right, but also how it adds just one more layer of strategy.

In the NFL, if on 1st and 10 a receiver makes a 7 yard grab in the middle of the 1st quarter tied 0-0 and the official calls him out of bounds when he really was in, the receiver may jump up and down claiming he was in bounds, but no NFL coach is going to challenge that. It's a waste. However, in college, there will be a minute or two stoppage here. Yeah, the call might get corrected, but it just is not worth it at this point.

M2 · Post by M2 » Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:44 pm

I'm not sure about the Big 10, but most conferences have replay officials that review each play as the game goes on. If they see something that they think may need to be reviewed, they inform the official on the field.

I think they should go to the NFL concept...

This maybe unfeasible since I'm not sure a college can afford to have 2 or 3 coaches in the box upstairs, just to review plays.

m2

WolverineSteve · Post by **WolverineSteve** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:59 pm

Not that it affected the final score...but it did.

I'm talking about the weak Pass interference call on 4th down that allowed PSU to maintain possesion on their final td drive.

It works both ways. Officiating is imperfect, and the review format doesn't seem to be working as smoothly as it did last year.

King Crimson · Post by **King Crimson** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:48 pm

i'm surprised that no one has started a thread on how shitty the NCAA replay system is.

seems to combine all the worst elements of possible officiating error and replay.

who makes these arbitrary replay decisions, God?

MSUFAN · Post by **MSUFAN** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:16 pm

Surprised PSUfan neglects to point to the fumble by Hart with about 9:00 to go, and PSU stiall ahead by 8. That drive eventually tied the gam, I believe.

Of course, the rules could be that if the ref blew it dead, then there is no replay allowed. I did see/hear the ref blow the whistle just as PSU players were recovering the ball.

ABC had ONE replay in slow-mo. Clearly showing the fumble from Hart. Nessler and Greise commented it was a fumble. UM very quickly hurried another handoff to Hart. And as Hart was going back to the huddle, a closeup showed him acting as if that last play was a close one. That they may have gotten away with (another) one.

Juss sayin. I actually like that PSU lost. It could make the final game in E. Lansing a good one. A 2 loss MSU going up against 1 loss PSU!

MSUFAN · Post by **MSUFAN** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:22 pm

King Crimson wrote:i'm surprised that no one has started a thread on how shitty the NCAA replay system is.

seems to combine all the worst elements of possible officiating error and replay.

who makes these arbitrary replay decisions, God?

I read recently where they said the B10 actually has a replay "guru" watching every telecast, and if he sees something, he can even "bat phone" the particular location, and have the play reviewed. Because, imho, I don't think the guy who's actually upstairs at lets say UM shithouse, is an actual B10 Official. Most likely a hired person by the host team. You get my drift. Thus the B10 "overseer", who views each game simultaniously, (sic) if need be.

I think this may be why we're seeing such hurried plays. Because on a very close, crucial play, I don't think "Old Blue" upstairs is in any hurry.

Again, you get my drift?

Allow the red coaches flag ONCE per half. And after that, he'd have to use a T.O.

MSUFAN · Post by **MSUFAN** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:42 pm

Figures.

Just another blow "call" by a B10 official.
The zebra was right there, too.

It was clearly a fumble. I thought the new way that officials were treating possible fumbles, was to NOT blow the whistle. So, then a quick review would confirm it either way. That "homer" prolly knew which way he wanted that ball to go, before the play even happened.

Again, juss say'in.

The Seer · Post by **The Seer** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:47 pm

Bad officiating.

Isn't that redundant??

Pac-10

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 11:03 pm

All I know is that I'm actually now glad that I didn't get to see the horribly officiated PSU/UM game. By the sounds of it, I'da blown a mother effing gasket.

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:25 am

Let me start by saying I didn't see the game in question that started this thread so all of my comments are on officiating and replay in general.

The first thing we need to do is make sure everyone understands how replay works in most conferences (ie Big 11, Big XII, etc). In the replay booth there are 3 people. The replay official, a technician, and a communicator. As the play happens it is recorded on a DVR type machine in real time. As soon as the play is complete it is marked. It is instantly available to be replayed and reviewed.

The tech is there to work the gear and make sure there are no mechanical issues and helps call up the multiple views of a play. The communicator is the person who buzzes the officials on the field (at the request of the replay official) and then is on the phone with the Referee when he does come to the sideline. The replay official is the one who reviews the video and makes the decisions. Almost all of the replay officials are former "on field" officials who because of injury or age or another factor are unable to work on the field. Dick Honig, one of the most respected officials for the past decade retirered from the field after last season and moved to the booth this season.

Now let's also not forget that once a play is done, it usually takes the officials anywhere from 12-17 seconds to set the ball for the next play. Then, they make the ball ready for play and the 25 second clock starts. So on each play there is 35 to 50 seconds for the replay official to stop play if he feels it necessary. As the replay official is watching the replay the communicator is watching the field. He lets the replay official know where the teams are by saying things like "in huddle", "breaking huddle", "near line" etc. Sometimes the replay official will tell the communicator to let it go, meaning he isn't going to stop the play. Other times he will tell the communicator to "not let them snap without an update from me".

Now having laid all that out, here is some further info from Dave Perry official supervisor of Big 11 officials from a conference earlier this year. He indicated that 98% of plays don't need replay or can be determined prior to the next snap. He further stated that about half way thru last season people didn't understand replay and thought that replay was only happening when the game was stopped. As such the Big 11 tried stopping some games in critical situations even though the replay official had already reviewed the play and didn't need to overturn anything. They did this mostly as PR. Then in discussions with their coaches this spring the put that practice back in the closet. The coaches didn't want any stoppages if the replay official had already decided or didn't have enough views.

Again, this post was just to dispell some of the incorrect posts in this thread. As an official myself, I don't mind replay since it helps us get more things correct. But as was already stated in this thread, we must understand that officiating can never be perfect no matter what technology we use.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:22 pm

I did see/hear the ref blow the whistle just as PSU players were recovering the ball.

I've watched the game tape at that point over and over - the whistle that you can hear comes after the ball has been recovered by PSU players. One might state that the officials intended to blow the whistle earlier, but they surely did not actually manage to do so.

Another thing - the officials skipped the conversion attempt after the final play. By rule, that conversion is mandatory. There were a lot of folks on the field, and it might have taken some work to do it, but the correct thing to do would have been to flag UM for excessive celebration, because technically, the game was not completed.

Not that I care one bit - but the spread was 3 points. I think some folks in Vegas were wonding about why they just skipped the conversion try. Also, there is the minute chance that UM botches the attempt, PSU returns it for 2 pts, and they're in OT.

Also, in viewing the tape, there are some utterly BIZZARE spots of the ball. In two circumstances, officials can be seen standing in the correct spot, then doing a "drunken walk", veering ahead to spot the ball where it would be close to a first down. I wish I had the game on DVD, I'd be able to post clips. When folks look at the film of this game, there will be some discussion of this, beyond the shadow of a doubt.

At very least, I think there are some things that Big 10 officials need to look at in this game, and refine what they are doing as a result - even if it is simply reprimanding the officials involved for their incompetence. This wasn't UM/OSU, but the game was a very high-profile contest. It's a black eye for the conference that they can conduct officiating with so much incompetence.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:31 pm

Me too...but see, they shouldn't have just waved it off. The conversion is mandatory. Once again...I see a celebration penalty being enforced in many cases...clearly not this one - guess it might have impinged on cocktail hour.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:29 pm

I remember calling what PSUFAN said a rant once.

That's when I established myself as a drive-by smacker. I didn't like getting into the all-out smack-offs. Too draining.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:01 pm

I didn't mean an "official smack-off." Rather, any back and forth smack that goes more than 3 or 4 posts. I'll generally say all I have to say on a subject in one, maybe two, posts. No need to regurgitate over and over and over the same thing you've already said (see politico forum for example).

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:10 pm

I thought the point after TD was an election, not a mandatory play. I remember being at the UofM/UVA game in '95 when Hayes caught the game winning TD pass as time expired, to put UofM up by 2. UVA could have tied it, if they blocked the extra point and taken it back for the 2 points. I thought the PA announcer came on and stated that there would be no try for point after touchdown because Michigan declined the option.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:41 pm

I thought the point after TD was an election, not a mandatory play.

I thought I saw something recently that stated it was mandatory. I'll search around.

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:27 pm

Hey Lefty,

You better make sure none of your colleagues read this or your ass is fired! You said that officials can never be perfect. I always thought officals (regardless of sport) were never allowed to admit to that. No ref/ump/official will ever admit to a mistake. They always spin everytime they screw up. And then they get their co-refs to back them up on what is clearly a big mistake on their part.

And, no offense PSUFAN, what is with Penn State fans? Why do you guys always have to whine about the officiating? I've never seen a fan base with as many whiners as the Penn State fans. Not lumping you into this group by any means, I'm talking the fan base as a whole. The Big-10 is not out to bring Penn State down and neither are the officials. Some PSU fans think that is the case. It's not. Trust me, Big-10 refs are retarded and obviously never went through training. They don't just fuck over Penn State. They fuck everyone over.

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:05 pm

Jon,

Why don't you show me an official who has said he has called the perfect game. If you find one he is prolly working Pop Warner games on a Saturday for $20 a game and thinking that if only the assigner didn't hate him he would be in the NFL.

Every freaking official I know and have ever met knows that they are not perfect. We do everything we can to be as close to perfect, but we will never get there.

Now for your stupid statement that we all stand behind blown calls and even cover for others blown calls. Put up or shut up. List a few calls in national games that we all would have seen that the refs blew and then other officials got behind them and covered it up.

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:20 pm

My exact point is just that. You're getting way too defensive. That's what officials do. Too thin skinned. Not necessarily you, but officials in general.

I will say this, I have a bigger problem with umps than football/basketball refs. I wasn't just calling out college football refs, I was talking umps/refs in general. Baseball umps are scumbags. They're all full of shit. Football refs are good people, but where is the accountability?

If you screw up, you screw up. No one is perfect. But do you ever hear about an official that apologized for a mistake or even said "I messed up, I take responsibility." Maybe once out of every 10,000 screw ups.

I know it's a tough job. And it's a thankless job. Really, no one gives refs any credit when they do a good job. But when they make an obvious mistake (and yes, Lefty, there are a lot of bad calls out there) they should come out to the media and take responsibility for it. I'd have a lot more respect for refs/umps if they did that.

I see hundreds of bad calls every Saturday watching College Football and I hear ZERO apologies or refs taking accountability for them. Why is that? If you're not being accountable for your mistakes, isn't that basically like saying you didn't screw up??

Jimmy Medalions · Post by **Jimmy Medalions** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:33 pm

TheJON wrote:I see hundreds of bad calls every Saturday watching College Football and I hear ZERO apologies or refs taking accountability for them. Why is that?

Cost / Benefit Analysis:

Use air time to let ref tell America he made a mistake

or

Use air time to run commercials and get paid

or

Use air time to run programming that people will stay with, so they can then run commercials and get paid

Jon=bitch, you really do lower the bar.

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:00 pm

Jon,

BtH did a fine job of stating the reasons. To take it one step further, individual officials are prohibited from speaking to the media. We must say if approached by any member of the media to say only "no comment, please direct all questions to the supervisor of officials." There is a good reason for that Jon. The supervisor of officials will only comment after he has reviewed the tape and he will comment objectively.

I see hundreds of bad calls every Saturday watching College Football and I hear ZERO apologies or refs taking accountability for them.

Just because you don't fully understand all of the rules or you disagree with the rules doesn't mean the officials were wrong. So again since you are seeing these hundreds of bad calls please point out some from this weekend in games we all would have seen.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:35 pm

Yes, many PSU fans have cried a lot in recent years about officiating. I've been in the "get over it - we lost" camp for a while.

I don't know - PSU has seen their share of bad calls lately...and this is a fan base that is used to watching a dominant team. The calls always seemed to go their way. It's hard for some folks to accept that PSU was down for football reasons...there must be some conspiracy of some kind.

Also - the fans that you read whining about things on the internet are in no way the majority of fans of a given program. They are just the ones with the time and ability to spend their time online, and who are interested in spending that time on message boards.

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:02 pm

Oh, I know those that post on message boards do not make up the entire fan base. For example, Jimmy is a loyal USC fan, and we all know that 99% of USC fans are just bandwagon fans. So Jimmy is not proper representation of the SC fan base. Well, maybe except for the fact that he probably never had to work for anything in his life and was just given everything by his daddy. So in that way, you could probably categorize him as a typical SC fan.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:09 pm

JON, how's that journalism thing going?

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:25 pm

I have a decent job. That's all that matters.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:26 pm

True enough. Are you in print now? Is bombast serving you well, as you said it would?

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:30 pm

No soy. I actually have a FT job in a completely unrelated field. But I cover HS football in Des Moines for a local radio station on Friday nights. Not much, but hey, it's a start. Unfortunately, I really don't care much for HS football. But I'm really good at pretending to.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:21 pm

TheJON wrote:I have a decent job. That's all that matters.

Yeah, decent...whatever.

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:53 pm

That car you're talking about was half paid by me with my hard earned money. Kids in SoCal don't pay for shit. They don't have to work for shit. Everything is handed to them by mommy and daddy. Not me. I worked really fucking hard in HS.

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:52 pm

Hey just because most kids in W Des Moines were stuck up rich kids, doesn't mean I was.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:58 pm

How dare we lump you in with all of those other folks?

sincerely,

Kids in SoCal don't pay for shit. They don't have to work for shit. Everything is handed to them by mommy and daddy.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:59 pm

TheJON wrote:Hey just because most kids in W Des Moines were stuck up rich kids, doesn't mean I was.

But because "kids in SoCal don't pay for shit" means all people in SoCal "don't pay for shit"? Your logic confuses and frightens me.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:09 pm

At one time, it scared me that Jon was studying to be a journalist...now I can see that he's perfect for the profession, in the current occupational landscape.

Rack him!

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:20 pm

Is there a law against being a hypocrit??

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:42 pm

Not sure what kind of journalist he'd be, but I know he'd suck as an editor.