The notion that earning low 20's is a lot.

[MSUFAN]

I've been listening, and reading about the hourly union wages "problem" that most corporate/management sympathisers like to argue when discussing the maunfacturing jobs losses in America.

I think everyone needs to back up and just Think about the figures.
Buisness Week has estimated that most line workers involving ALL auto makers in the nation, including the Toyota's and Honda's and Mazda's; is averaging around #22 or so per hour. The low twenties.

A $900 per week GROSS income before taxes, is NOT a whole hell of a lot.

Just try and imagine the every month living expenses for a typical family of four in suburbian america. - Easily $1,000 or more in basic mortgage and escrow/insurance. And that's for a basic ranch 3 bedr. home! - at around 6% apr. - Some of you who live in f-ed up states with no hedges against property taxes and assesments, like Mi. does, probably pay hundreds more!

Please try and tell me that there isn't another $1,000 or more, if you actually pay health ins. and things of that nature. Food. Shelter. Gas. Maintenance and upkeep of your home and vehicles. Oh -- and don't dare be on any meds or have an illness condition. Christ, that can run it up another $400/mo. Sure, some auto co. pay out a major % of those costs. But it's been decreasing for YEARS now. It's going to be even more, in the future.

So, when I see people trying to tell me that $3800 gross; a fricking month, is some livin off the high hog, exorbiant lifestyle, for building cars; and sweating your ass off in 110* shops across the nation; I get a sick feel in my stomach.

A family could easily have $2,500 or even more in some cases, of bills for just the basic needs in todays suburban america. So, after taxes, on a guy who makes $46K a year, I'd say that a family of 4 has around $500 of play around money a MONTH! (And if his wife goes out to grab up $20K a year in help, all that does is raise his tax outlays every 15th of April. And maybe $200 a week in help. Wow. Pinch me! :roll:

Now, someone argue with me that an auto co. Union worker drawing around $22 beans an hour, is causing the fat cat mega billion dollar auto corporations, complete with HUGE executive pay packages, to go under.
That cutting their pay to $12.50 or 15.00 bucks is the REAL way to fix it. Intead of starting right up at the TOP of the food chain, and trimming the fat blubber of suits!

[BSmack]

This sounds like a personal problem. You can live well on $22 an hour provided you live within your means.

If you don't...tough motherfucking shit for you.

He's not talking about living on 22 an hour. He's talking about being forced to live on half that.

So take your Malthusian plunger and shove it up your ass.

[OCmike]

MSUFAN is missing the point. If you can't live on $20/hour, $12/hour or less, then don't pick a profession that pays that little. Go to college or a trade school so you can make more money!

Bottom line, just because you choose an unskilled labor position as your lifetime career does not mean that your employer is obligated to pay you a middle class wage for that position. I think that's the fundamental flaw in your thinking.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

It's my day off.

I'll be watching "WALMART: The High Cost Of Low Prices" this afternoon.

[Mikey]

I have a hard time getting by on a lot more than that.

But that's just me.

[OCmike]

I have a hard time getting by on a lot more than that.

But that's just me.

I make a lot of money, but I spend a lot of money too.

Sin,
Mikey Ewing

[Mikey]

I have a hard time getting by on a lot more than that.

But that's just me.

I make a lot of money, but I spend a lot of money too.

Sin,
Mikey Ewing

I don't get free shoes though.

[Diogenes]

He's right, we should just raise tha minimum wage to $30.00/hour.



That'll fix everything.













Really.

[OCmike]

This sounds like a personal problem. You can live well on $22 an hour provided you live within your means.

If you don't...tough motherfucking shit for you.

He's not talking about living on 22 an hour. He's talking about being forced to live on half that.

So take your Malthusian plunger and shove it up your ass.

The only one who "forces" someone to live on $11/hour is the employee themselves. You don't want to make that little money? Don't work there.

I love these entitlement dorks who demand more and more of the company's profits, then when the company is forced to cut back jobs because they can't afford to pay the guy who scrubs toilets $60,000 a year, the dorks whine that it's the Republican economic policies that are forcing job cuts. Epic.

[OCmike]

I have a hard time getting by on a lot more than that.

But that's just me.

I make a lot of money, but I spend a lot of money too.

Sin,
Mikey Ewing

I don't get free shoes though.

True, but you also don't have a nose that looks like a double-barrelled shotgun either.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

...when the company is forced to cut back jobs because they can't afford to pay the guy who scrubs toilets $60,000 a year...

x 1 000 000

[BSmack]

The only one who "forces" someone to live on $11/hour is the employee themselves. You don't want to make that little money? Don't work there.

Yea, you try rasing a family on a certain wage for 20 some years only to have it cut in half.

I love these entitlement dorks who demand more and more of the company's profits, then when the company is forced to cut back jobs because they can't afford to pay the guy who scrubs toilets $60,000 a year, the dorks whine that it's the Republican economic policies that are forcing job cuts. Epic.

Epic is what the CEOs of GM and Delphi are making.

And if that toliet scrubber is making 60k, he's pulling a whole lot of OT. Try getting your head out of your ass for once.

[Mikey]

I make a lot of money, but I spend a lot of money too.

Sin,
Mikey Ewing

I don't get free shoes though.

True, but you also don't have a nose that looks like a double-barrelled shotgun either.

How do you know?

Racist.

:wink:

[Cuda]

I've been listening, and reading about the hourly union wages "problem" that most corporate/management sympathisers like to argue when discussing the maunfacturing jobs losses in America.

I think everyone needs to back up and just Think about the figures.
Buisness Week has estimated that most line workers involving ALL auto makers in the nation, including the Toyota's and Honda's and Mazda's; is averaging around #22 or so per hour. The low twenties.

A $900 per week GROSS income before taxes, is NOT a whole hell of a lot.

Just try and imagine the every month living expenses for a typical family of four in suburbian america. - Easily $1,000 or more in basic mortgage and escrow/insurance. And that's for a basic ranch 3 bedr. home! - at around 6% apr. - Some of you who live in f-ed up states with no hedges against property taxes and assesments, like Mi. does, probably pay hundreds more!

Please try and tell me that there isn't another $1,000 or more, if you actually pay health ins. and things of that nature. Food. Shelter. Gas. Maintenance and upkeep of your home and vehicles. Oh -- and don't dare be on any meds or have an illness condition. Christ, that can run it up another $400/mo. Sure, some auto co. pay out a major % of those costs. But it's been decreasing for YEARS now. It's going to be even more, in the future.

So, when I see people trying to tell me that $3800 gross; a fricking month, is some livin off the high hog, exorbiant lifestyle, for building cars; and sweating your ass off in 110* shops across the nation; I get a sick feel in my stomach.

A family could easily have $2,500 or even more in some cases, of bills for just the basic needs in todays suburban america. So, after taxes, on a guy who makes $46K a year, I'd say that a family of 4 has around $500 of play around money a MONTH! (And if his wife goes out to grab up $20K a year in help, all that does is raise his tax outlays every 15th of April. And maybe $200 a week in help. Wow. Pinch me! :roll:

Now, someone argue with me that an auto co. Union worker drawing around $22 beans an hour, is causing the fat cat mega billion dollar auto corporations, complete with HUGE executive pay packages, to go under.
That cutting their pay to $12.50 or 15.00 bucks is the REAL way to fix it. Intead of starting right up at the TOP of the food chain, and trimming the fat blubber of suits!

There's a Rule-of-Thumb that says any guy who isn't making at least his age is a LOSER.

You've been a loser for what, 5 years?

[Mister Bushice]

The only one who "forces" someone to live on $11/hour is the employee themselves. You don't want to make that little money? Don't work there.

Yea, you try rasing a family on a certain wage for 20 some years only to have it cut in half.

I love these entitlement dorks who demand more and more of the company's profits, then when the company is forced to cut back jobs because they can't afford to pay the guy who scrubs toilets $60,000 a year, the dorks whine that it's the Republican economic policies that are forcing job cuts. Epic.

Epic is what the CEOs of GM and Delphi are making.

And if that toliet scrubber is making 60k, he's pulling a whole lot of OT. Try getting your head out of your ass for once.

wasn't there a janitor in a NYC school system making more than the principal was? Can't recall where I saw that story.

[BSmack]

Epic is what the CEOs of GM and Delphi are making.

And if that toliet scrubber is making 60k, he's pulling a whole lot of OT. Try getting your head out of your ass for once.

wasn't there a janitor in a NYC school system making more than the principal was? Can't recall where I saw that story.

Chain email?

[Mister Bushice]

FUnny. :)

No it was a news story about the disparity between union wages and non union wages. It compared a union janitor in I think it was a NYC school making 50-60k with the principal, who was pulling in 35.

[BSmack]

FUnny. :)

No it was a news story about the disparity between union wages and non union wages. It compared a union janitor in I think it was a NYC school making 50-60k with the principal, who was pulling in 35.

I could see where in the worst schools in NYC, where little things like certifications are often waived for teachers and administrators, where someone might have been brought in as a provisonal or interim principal at a rate far less than a janitor at the top of his pay grade. Also, I wouldn't be shocked to find out that this union janitor had a bit more on his plate than sweeping floors. These schools all have boilers and wiring systems. You don't just get chimps to repair them.

[Mikey]

FUnny. :)

No it was a news story about the disparity between union wages and non union wages. It compared a union janitor in I think it was a NYC school making 50-60k with the principal, who was pulling in 35.

You don't just get chimps to repair them.

Of course not. The chimps are too busy running the country.

[OCmike]

FUnny. :)

No it was a news story about the disparity between union wages and non union wages. It compared a union janitor in I think it was a NYC school making 50-60k with the principal, who was pulling in 35.

I could see where in the worst schools in NYC, where little things like certifications are often waived for teachers and administrators, where someone might have been brought in as a provisonal or interim principal at a rate far less than a janitor at the top of his pay grade. Also, I wouldn't be shocked to find out that this union janitor had a bit more on his plate than sweeping floors. These schools all have boilers and wiring systems. You don't just get chimps to repair them.

No, you get electricians and boiler technicians to fix them. The next janitor that does anything other than start a boiler up and shut it down will be the first.

Yea, you try rasing a family on a certain wage for 20 some years only to have it cut in half.

I'm not in that situation because I made smarter life choices. You know, crazy things...like understanding that if I don't constantly improve myself that I'll be expendable? I guess I should have just sat around and waited for someone to pay me more.

They took that job originally knowing they were going to be greatly overpaid for the skill level of work and now they got burned. Boo-fucking-hoo.

Epic is what the CEOs of GM and Delphi are making.

And rightly so. There are very few people qualified to run a company, therefore that skill is paid at a premium. A monkey could do most of the jobs at Delphi, therefore those jobs don't pay shit. Again, it all comes down to life choices. The CEOs went to college and got a degree prior to joining the workforce, while the delphi chimps knocked up some chick at 15, smoked pot every day into their 30's and spent their remaining cash on beer and cigs. Shocker that one guy is making six or seven figures and the other guy is making $11/hour. It's really not that hard to figure out....

Oh, and spare me the "silver spoon" excuse. There are plenty of people who go to college and pay for it all with grants and loans. The rich are the exception, not the rule.

Oh, and spare me (#2) the argument that the CEOs are paid millions and the company sucks. That job pays a certain amount and CEOs have the ability to suck just as much as a guy making $11/hour. There are turds at every level of a company.

And if that toliet scrubber is making 60k, he's pulling a whole lot of OT. Try getting your head out of your ass for once.

I can't think of any rational reason whatsoever, why a toilet scrubber should EVER make $60,000/year. There's your tax dollars at work, buddy. I can think of a whole lot of other things I'd like to spend that extra cash on in a school that some guy who chases turds for a living.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

I can think of a whole lot of other things I'd like to spend that extra cash on in a school ...

Intelligent Design textbooks?

[BSmack]

No, you get electricians and boiler technicians to fix them. The next janitor that does anything other than start a boiler up and shut it down will be the first.

You are mistaking a broom pusher for a head custodian. My contention is that the guy in NYC was more likely than not a head custodian. Such a person would have a greater level of responsibility and expertise.

I'm not in that situation because I made smarter life choices.

You're not in that situation because you are one lucky son of a bitch. Out of 1 millon sperm, YOU were the fastest. On top of which, you were born in the United States to parents who were at least middle class in income.

And rightly so. There are very few people qualified to run a company, therefore that skill is paid at a premium.

Give me a break. You could take any one of a 1000 middle management types at GM and swap them with Rick Waggoner and GM wouldn't skip a fucking beat. In fact, it is entirely possible the company would do better. Any CEO making more than 10 times the average salary at his company is overpaid. It is that simple.

A monkey could do most of the jobs at Delphi, therefore those jobs don't pay shit. Again, it all comes down to life choices. The CEOs went to college and got a degree prior to joining the workforce, while the delphi chimps knocked up some chick at 15, smoked pot every day into their 30's and spent their remaining cash on beer and cigs. Shocker that one guy is making six or seven figures and the other guy is making $11/hour. It's really not that hard to figure out....

No, they guy is making $23/hour, not $11. What the union is reacting to is the chance that he would be cut to $11 an hour.

Oh, and spare me the "silver spoon" excuse. There are plenty of people who go to college and pay for it all with grants and loans. The rich are the exception, not the rule.

The rich are sure as hell not the exception in the boardrooms.

Oh, and spare me (#2) the argument that the CEOs are paid millions and the company sucks. That job pays a certain amount and CEOs have the ability to suck just as much as a guy making $11/hour. There are turds at every level of a company.

I can't think of any rational reason whatsoever, why a toilet scrubber should EVER make $60,000/year. There's your tax dollars at work, buddy. I can think of a whole lot of other things I'd like to spend that extra cash on in a school that some guy who chases turds for a living.

Mixing your chain emails much? We were talking about a toilet scrubber at Delphi. Bushice was talking about the school janitor, which I adressed earlier. No way someone scrubbing toilets at Delphi is pulling down 60k without banking some kickass overtime. And if the guy is working harder, why shouldn't get more?

Why do you hate capitalisim?

[MSUFAN]

You people really do fall for this ocmike trolling bullshit, don't tou.

I mean NO ONE thinks that way. No one whos not trolling everyone on a MB.

This fucker doesn't believe any of the shit he posts. He's just arguing to get attention. A rise from the people stupid enough to think he's serious.

Everyone knows society is littered with class brick walls erected by the establishment, that only the privileged few get to climb over. The rest of average americans have pretty much forced into varying degrees of economic status that they can attain. None as lucrative as these CEO's making these claims

Some people have the DNA and are smart, and can attain knowledge to allow them to work in area's where they aren't tied to a companies paycheck. Fine! Great for you!

Others, and for the majority of americans, education and ability to scale the ladder, only goes so high. And that's where his argument fails miserably. He tries to assume everyone is equal. Or that they're TREATED equal!

When a person achieves his staus in his life. He works hard. he's promised a certain way of life. His employer joins in a contract with him! A wage comparable to his sweat and toils for a major corporation, that otherwise has been doing solidly over decades. He has NO REASON to think he needs to further master some field or profession. He's FOUND his profession!

And these fucking companies devise ways to TEAR DOWN the very labor force that made them BILLIONS in profits! It's a class war enacted by the class that stacks the deck in their favor!

So; no wonder the thousands upon thousands of working class poor get pissed!!! The out and out LIES from the top, that the company will go south, if MASSIVE cuts aren't enacted.

(I can't believe I'm falling for this damn troll trick again! I'm just regurgitating AGAIN, the points I've allready made! Christ!)

Fucking TROLLS. I hate 'em! :mad:

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Rack MSUFAN and class war.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

No one on Earth owes you a fucking thing. No one.

You do not "deserve" a good-paying job, cheap/free health care, 3 hots and a cot, etc. just because you draw breath. It is not the employer's responsibility to "take care" of you and yours. Their job is to make money. Period. Employees are a means to that end. Companies are not families and never were. Get over it.

I addressed this in the other thread, but I'll mention it here too - I make less than $30/hr as a tenured teacher, even with two Master's degrees...and somehow, my family of four and I have two cars (one now paid off) a nice house, etc. Yeah, my wife works, but she is a small business owner who is taxed and regulated to freaking hell and barely makes enough to pay the rent on the space she has. She figures that she'll have to wait ANOTHER year before her business debts start clearing away and she can contribute meaningfully to the household income.

If someone honestly thinks they can't live on under $30/hour, then they need to either seriously re-evaluate their expenses or frigging MOVE.

Anyone under about 45 who took a job and did nothing to grow professionally -coursework, seminars, etc. slit their OWN frigging throats. If someone was dick-in-the-dirt stupid enough to see how the world economy was changing and still sat on their widening ass and stood pat with the rapidly outmoded skill sets they had, well, then, they DESERVE to be fucking roadkill.

Criminy, even as a highly-educated, tenured teacher who belongs to one of the most powerful unions in the country, even *I* know that my job is not "owed" to me and therefore I -at my own expense- attend workshops, do online research, get literature/books to learn more on my subjects and teaching technique...all to keep myself valuable and competitive. It is NOT my employer's job to get this stuff for me or pay for it...it's MINE. It is NOT my employer's responsibility to care for my family...it's MINE.

Christ, how the hell did America turn into a country of such pathetic lardasses who expect everything to be handed to them?

Take some fucking responsibility for your own goddamned life. It's no one's responsibility but your own.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

BTW, I'm not trolling. I meant what I posted.

As someone who never belonged to a union until three years ago (and whose wife owns a business with employees), I've noticed that a lot of folks who have only ever worked in a union-protected job have a decidedly warped view of the employer-employee relationship and entitlements. I honestly cannot believe the nigh-socialist garbage spewed from the mouths of some of my career-teacher colleagues. They, on the other hand, can't believe that I don't buy into their view of the world and what it owes them.

IMNSHO, I've at least seen both sides, while they've been steeped in only one.