YOUR Top 5 Heisman List: Wk Ending 11/5

Vito Corleone · Post by **Vito Corleone** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 9:25 am

Roofer wrote:Something the Right may never hear again......

Bush wins.

Don't bet on that there is still Jeb Bush and last I checked there are still more red states than blue ones.

Vito Corleone · Post by **Vito Corleone** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 9:29 am

Van wrote:Leinart pulled it together in the second half today but man, that was the worst I've ever seen him look. He was overthrowing everybody in the first half...

I think it is commical that USC left their starters in just to pad their stats, but that the kind of coach Carroll is.

If Mack left Vince in til the 3rd quarter Texas would have broke the 100 pt mark.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 9:49 am

It has to be Bush...he has fewer holes in his game than Young does. Not to say Vince isn't probably the most valuable player in college football but no one dominates a game like Bush does. Rushing the ball, catching the ball, blocking, and returning kicks...he's great at everything. They guy hasn't fumbled once in his college career either. It's damn near impossible to shoot holes in any argument for him winning the award. There won't be any shame in finishing second to that guy.

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:53 pm

Bush
Young
Leinart

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:00 pm

Bush HAS to win this. The interesting thing at this point is who the 5th invitee will be.

Vito Corleone · Post by **Vito Corleone** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:10 pm

I agree that Bush will win, but the reason he is going to win is what escapes most of the voters. He needed a monster game against Fresno state just for USC to actually win the game. Then USC fan comes in and talks about how great Bush is for putting up 500 yards of total offense against the #16 team in the nation. Then we see how good FS was when they lose to Nevada and La Tech.

So last saturday Bush has another monster day against #10 ranked UCLA, but I want to point out a couple of things. First, UCLA has the #115 ranked run defense, I'm willing to bet there are Div II schools that have better run defense. Second I like to point out how long Bush was in the game after it was decided just to get all those yards.

Now if Mack wanted Young to win the Heisman as much as Carroll wanted Bush to win it and left Vince in the Colorado game til the 4th quarter what kind of number would Vince have put up? Hell I can almost guarantee Texas would have broken the 100 point mark. But Mack Pulls the starters after the first series of the 3rd quarter like he has done in 6 other game this year.

Yet with all this its USC fan who thinks they are the team of destiny. I say USC is Larry Holmes and Texas is young Mike Tyson.

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:13 pm

Ummm I watched the USC game and Bush had 228 at the half. He got another 30 in the first part if the third quarter and he didnt get the ball after that. Sooo, he finished w/ 260 in 2 &1/2 Quarters. He would have had 400 if Carroll wanted him to.

See You Next Wednesday · Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:25 pm

Bush proabbly will and probably should win the Heisman. But that doesn't take anything away from Young, great talent, great leader who has performed great when he needed to. The choice between Bush or Young is personal preference as to what you think the award should mean. And I can't argue with anyone putting either one of the #1.

The Heisman is prestigious, sure, but the effect of putting one player on this pedestal shouldnt't diminish the achivements of the other great players in the game.

Roofer · Post by **Roofer** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:27 pm

Vito Corleone wrote:
Roofer wrote:Something the Right may never hear again......

Bush wins.
Don't bet on that there is still Jeb Bush and last I checked there are still more red states than blue ones.

Not to go all "Spin Forum" in here, but I have a feeling that Dubya has damaged the Republican reputation so much that he pretty much fucked any chance his brother had at the oval office.

Roofer · Post by **Roofer** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:34 pm

Vito Corleone wrote:I agree that Bush will win, but the reason he is going to win is what escapes most of the voters. He needed a monster game against Fresno state just for USC to actually win the game. Then USC fan comes in and talks about how great Bush is for putting up 500 yards of total offense against the #16 team in the nation. Then we see how good FS was when they lose to Nevada and La Tech.

So last saturday Bush has another monster day against #10 ranked UCLA, but I want to point out a couple of things. First, UCLA has the #115 ranked run defense, I'm willing to bet there are Div II schools that have better run defense. Second I like to point out how long Bush was in the game after it was decided just to get all those yards.

Now if Mack wanted Young to win the Heisman as much as Carroll wanted Bush to win it and left Vince in the Colorado game til the 4th quarter what kind of number would Vince have put up? Hell I can almost guarantee Texas would have broken the 100 point mark. But Mack Pulls the starters after the first series of the 3rd quarter like he has done in 6 other game this year.

Yet with all this its USC fan who thinks they are the team of destiny. I say USC is Larry Holmes and Texas is young Mike Tyson.

Vito you're rapidly becoming the joke of this forum.

Bush had about 228 of his 260 yards in the first half. That means he piled up a whopping 32 yards while USC was supposedly running up the score and padding their stats.

You are officially an idiot.

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:36 pm

I guess he watched the game.

Roofer · Post by **Roofer** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:37 pm

Cicero wrote:Ummm I watched the USC game and Bush had 228 at the half. He got another 30 in the first part if the third quarter and he didnt get the ball after that. Sooo, he finished w/ 260 in 2 &1/2 Quarters. He would have had 400 if Carroll wanted him to.

Thanks Cicero, didn't see you had pointed that out to Veet already.

And let's be honest, #5 could have easily broken LTs single game rushing record if the Trojans didn't have #21, 38, #2 and #11 on their team. Considering Young is the Texas offense, it's amazing how Reggie could put up those numbers with so many other weapons on the field.

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:02 pm

Roofer wrote:
Cicero wrote:Ummm I watched the USC game and Bush had 228 at the half. He got another 30 in the first part if the third quarter and he didnt get the ball after that. Sooo, he finished w/ 260 in 2 &1/2 Quarters. He would have had 400 if Carroll wanted him to.
Thanks Cicero, didn't see you had pointed that out to Veet already.

And let's be honest, #5 could have easily broken LTs single game rushing record if the Trojans didn't have #21, 38, #2 and #11 on their team. Considering Young is the Texas offense, it's amazing how Reggie could put up those numbers with so many other weapons on the field.

Moral of the story: Never let reality get in the way of my spin.

Sincerely,
Vito

Roofer, you hit the nail on the head there. If Bush was forced by Young's lack of surrounding skill position talent to carry a commensurate share of the load his numbers would simply be astronomical. As it is he's putting up other worldly numbers while only getting to grab a relatively small slice of USC's offensive pie...

Reggie Bush vs Vince Young is an absolute non starter. Vince is a good athlete in a QB friendly system playing against mostly dogshit competition that wouldn't stand a chance against Texas no matter who was manning the controls there. The only team there that could beat Texas (OU, every year, like a drum, with or without Vince) had the good manners to get mediocre in a hurry and in doing so they saved Hack's job. Otherwise, Vince or no Vince, it hasn't mattered who plays QB for Texas: They're going to lose no more than one game per season playing in the Big XII.

Vince Young will soon drift into those same mists of obscurity where Tommy Frazier, Eric Crouch and all those other "dual threat" RBs masquerading as QBs end up once their college fantasy rides are over. Due to his size he'll at least get to start off by being a mid level draft pick. Then he'll ride the bench. Injuries will ultimately force him into a few game situations at which point he'll get thoroughly exposed.

Within four years or so, well...

...enjoy life in Saskatchewan, Vince. Ooot!

Meanwhile, Reggie Bush is a once in a generation CF talent who'll not only be the first pick in the NFL draft but also a future All Pro and possible HOF'er if he can just avoid ripping apart an ACL along the way.

Vito Corleone · Post by **Vito Corleone** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:24 am

Other worldly numbers against better competition?

Do you not look at stats for UCLA? They have absolutely the worst run defense in the country, Baylor is better then them, Everyone in the Big 12 is better than them. Everyone in the MAC is better than them. Bush's best games this year have come against some of the worst defenses in the country.

Vince's best games have come against teams that actually have quality defenses.

Your predictions about Vince on the next level are commical since he is ranked by everyone who makes a living at scouting as one of the top 10 players in college. Most believe that if he enters the draft he won't fall past the #4 pick.

Do me a favor go google NFL draft and find a scouting service that thinks Vince is going to be a flop as a QB in the NFL. I'm willing to bet that for everyone you find I can find 3 that say the opposite. I will only accept articles that have scouted him this year.

Van · Post by **Van** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:38 am

Vince will be lucky to even be the fourth QB taken, nevermind the fourth pick overall.

Dude will be a Roughrider within five seasons. Either that, or Reggie Bush will be tipping the doorman at the Hyatt very well, the big guy who looks vaguely reminiscent of that QB for that team Reggie stomped back in the '06 Rose Bowl...

Shawn Marion · Post by **Shawn Marion** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:43 am

Vince Young would be the 2nd QB off the board this year. He is a first round pick easily.

Van · Post by **Van** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:55 am

If everybody came out this year Leinart, Quinn and Olsen would all get picked ahead of VY and I'm sure there are other QBs out there who'd also get picked ahead of VY too.

That's just QBs. Throw in all the other positions and there's no way in hell VY is a Top 4 pick. Hell, Reggie and Leinart are going 1 and 2 right off the top and VY most definitely won't be one of the next two players taken overall.

Won't matter anyway. After the trouncing he'll take in the Rose Bowl VY won't be coming out early. His stock is going to plummet like Vito in the Texas shower room.

VY is not an NFL QB. No way, no how. He has size, strength and speed and that's it. None of those attributes equate to success as an NFL QB, at least not in comparion to the ability to read defenses and make good decisions. Delivering the ball with touch and accuracy is also a prerequisite.

VY hasn't even begun to gain those skills. In the NFL he won't be able to get away with having five minutes to throw before he finally launches up an underthrown SCUD secure in the knowledge that his receiver will simply come back to the ball and win the jump ball against his undersized defender...

In the NFL the game is going to move way too quickly for him. He's a turnover just waiting to happen, followed by a torn hammy.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:24 pm

Bush threw up 150 yards and 3 TD's against a pretty good ND rush defense.

As far as VY as and NFL QB goes, touch is not his problem. He has improved his touch and accuracy greatly this year. The main problem is that he still throws flat footed or off his back foot. And as I said, his touch is fine, but those mechanics will hinder him the most when he stepps up and tries to rifle the ball in between two defenders.

But he will be taken in the top 10-15. His best chance for success is to go to a team and sit on the bench for a year or two. He'd be a perfect pick for the Raiders, or a team such as that.

SoCalTrjn · Post by **SoCalTrjn** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 3:16 pm

You ever heard an interview with Vince Young? That bumpkin would have a hell of a time trying to understand any NFL Offense, If he is to play QB in the Pros it will be in the CFL, get your Edmonton Eskinmoes gear ready, or perhaps he'll be a Roughrider, that seems to be a popular name up there.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 4:06 pm

SoCalTrjn wrote:You ever heard an interview with Vince Young? That bumpkin would have a hell of a time trying to understand any NFL Offense, If he is to play QB in the Pros it will be in the CFL, get your Edmonton Eskinmoes gear ready, or perhaps he'll be a Roughrider, that seems to be a popular name up there.

Did you ever hear Carson Palmer in an interview? Same could have been said about him.

Van · Post by **Van** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 6:26 pm

Actually, just basing it on interviews and overall glibness Joe Montana was never going to be confused with Bob Costas either...

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 6:39 pm

No shit Costas is 5'6, he could never see over the line.

Vito Corleone · Post by **Vito Corleone** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:39 pm

SoCalTrjn wrote:You ever heard an interview with Vince Young? That bumpkin would have a hell of a time trying to understand any NFL Offense, If he is to play QB in the Pros it will be in the CFL, get your Edmonton Eskinmoes gear ready, or perhaps he'll be a Roughrider, that seems to be a popular name up there.

lets hear it for the dumb black quarterback, I knew if I waited long enough some trojan would finally come up with the "he is too stupid to play QB in the pros" label given to every black QB by ignorant fans. And just as I suspected SoCalTrjn hides it in typical manner. "Have you ever heard his interviews" or Translation: He talks like a ignorant mvscal.

I guess surf Nazi is still alive and well in southern california

Jimmy Medalions · Post by **Jimmy Medalions** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:42 pm

According to Vince the Longhorns have a lot of "gangsters" on their team.

That's some Class-A leadership by the signal caller. Way to represent Texas.

Vito Corleone · Post by **Vito Corleone** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:27 pm

I'm not sure what Vince meant by the term Gangsters, but I can assure you it does not mean the same thing as you or I think it does.

Texas does not have anyone that I know of that fits the U miami term of gangster.

I'm pretty sure I have a different definition of the world gangster than Vince does.

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:04 pm

Maybe Carroll will show everyone that Texas isnt but a bunch of 'wangstas'.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 3:38 pm

Well, it won't really matter who the top 5 is. Only 3 are going to New York.

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:00 pm

Has that ever happened before, where they only invited three instead of the usual five?

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:25 pm

Not sure about 3, but they only had 4 in 2003.

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:46 pm

1992 they had 3.

Torreta
Faulk
Hearst

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:50 pm

Cicero wrote:1992 they had 3.

Torreta
Faulk
Hearst

Nope. Reggie Brooks from ND and the LB from FSU were there as well.

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:53 pm

Killian wrote:
Cicero wrote:1992 they had 3.

Torreta
Faulk
Hearst
Nope. Reggie Brooks from ND and the LB from FSU were there as well.

I know Marvin Jones finished 4th or 5th, but I thought I remembered seeing Torreta, Faulk and Hearst on the platform and them never mentioning the other two. Hmmmm, I was 12, so maybe I am wrong.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:58 pm

Cicero wrote:
Killian wrote:
Cicero wrote:1992 they had 3.

Torreta
Faulk
Hearst
Nope. Reggie Brooks from ND and the LB from FSU were there as well.

I know Marvin Jones finished 4th or 5th, but I thought I remembered seeing Torreta, Faulk and Hearst on the platform and them never mentioning the other two. Hmmmm, I was 12, so maybe I am wrong.

The only reason I remember is because I watched specifically for Reggie Brooks. I was still young and stupid enough to believe he had a shot.

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 6:06 pm

To steal a page from Killian...

Torreta
Faulk
Hearst

"Alex, I'll go with 'Which name there has no business sitting alongside the other two, and how on earth has the Heisman fucked it up that badly, so many times?', for $200!"

(As an aside, looking down the road about fifteen years from now an equally incongruous trio comprised of a HOF'er, a Solid Star and a Never Made It In The NFL will read...

Bush
Leinart
Young

Roofer · Post by **Roofer** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:09 pm

I am a diehard Trojan fan. I don't see Matt Leinart being anything other than a mediocre QB in the NFL. I'm serious. He's had the luxury of a dominating OL, a wicked corp of receivers, and a backfield mate that is in a league of his own. Put him in the NFL where the talent is even, or, as I've said before, the talent's even on the shortside for the team he'll be playing for and he'll be just an average Joe. My gut feeling tells me he just doesn't have the same makeup as Carson Palmer had coming out.

Tough call on Young. Typically out of the pocket QBs are considered to be at a disadvantage in the NFL, but McNabb, Culpepper and Vick have shown a team can still be somewhat successful with a VY type QB. He's got a cannon for an arm, he obviously has RB type moves. Honestly, if I had to say between VY and Leinart, which one has a better chance of making it, I'd go with VY because he's the better athlete.

Now go ahead fellow Trojan fans....pile on.

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:24 pm

Actually, I think Leniart has all the tools to be a very good QB in the NFL. He reminds me of a left-handed Palmer in that they have tons of starts behind them, cool head on their shoulders and have had big game experience. Yes, I think that Leinart has benefitted from having great talent around him, but I think that a lot of that talent has also benefitted from Leinart. If Chad Pennington and drew Brees can be All-Pros and lead teams to the playoffs in the NFL, I dont see whey Leinart isnt capable of the same.

Roofer · Post by **Roofer** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:36 pm

Cicero wrote:Actually, I think Leniart has all the tools to be a very good QB in the NFL. He reminds me of a left-handed Palmer in that they have tons of starts behind them, cool head on their shoulders and have had big game experience. Yes, I think that Leinart has benefitted from having great talent around him, but I think that a lot of that talent has also benefitted from Leinart. If Chad Pennington and drew Brees can be All-Pros and lead teams to the playoffs in the NFL, I dont see whey Leinart isnt capable of the same.

I didn't have the luxury of watching every one of Brees or Pennington's games like I have for Palmer and Leinart. I do know both those guys were highly touted during their college careers as prototypical pro quarterbacks. Leinart has been mentioned to possibly be a good NFL QB, but I don't think it's wrong to say he hasn't had the year this year that he did last year. Truthfully, I think Brady Quinn or Drew Olsen deserve to be going to NY more than Leinart. I wasn't so down on Matt until he really struggled in the early going of that UCLA game. He was overthrowing everything, and not because of pressure from the D either. I don't know what was happening with him, but he was off, and has been off at times this year. I will agree with the big game experience, the many starts, and being exposed to a winning program.

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:38 pm

My gut feeling tells me he just doesn't have the same makeup as Carson Palmer had coming out.

What's your gut basing that on, since both QB's enjoyed the same program advantagesat USC and both share the same size, pocket sense, passing touch and relative lack of athleticism...

... and Palmer's obviously panning out quite well in the NFL.

If anything Leinart actually showed more to his make up than Palmer did while at USC. Palmer took awhile to get it together and he never actually had those gut check performances like Leinart had against ND...

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just wondering what you're basing it on since Leinart would appear to have an even brighter future ahead of him than Palmer did at similar stages in their careers.

As for VY vs Culpepper, McNabb and Vick I'm surprised you don't see the obvious enormous differences there...

Of those former three only Vick played on a team that had even the remotest resemblance to Texas' overall talent level. There's no way you could say McNabb and Culpepper were merely the products of their dominating systems/surrounding talent.

Moreover just watch each player. VY doesn't throw like a Culpepper, either in terms of mechanics or accuracy. He also doesn't have Vick's running abilities.

Maybe he's more along the lines of a really wild and raw McNabb, but even that's a serious stretch when you really pay attention and notice just how awfully VY throws the ball. He doesn't even sorta look a real NFL QB. He looks like a bigger Tommy Frazier with worse throwing mechanics.

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:46 pm

I wasn't so down on Matt until he really struggled in the early going of that UCLA game. He was overthrowing everything, and not because of pressure from the D either.

No doubt he looked horrible there for awhile but that game was very definitely the exception and not the rule for Leinart. Most of the time the guy has been uncannily accurate for a college QB. Even in that UCLA game Leinart pulled it together from the middle of the second quarter forward...

The audible pass he called and then completed on fourth down against Notre Dame, that was a play very few college QB's would've ever had the balls to call and even fewer could've executed it against that specific coverage.

That was far more the rule for Leinart than all those overthrown passes against UCLA. The way Leinart looked against UCLA is the way VY quite often looks. Dude has been laughably overthrowing and underthrowing people his whole career, and looking positively amatuerish all the while...

Roofer · Post by **Roofer** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:48 pm

Van wrote:
My gut feeling tells me he just doesn't have the same makeup as Carson Palmer had coming out.
What's your gut basing that on, since both QB's enjoyed the same program advantagesat USC and both share the same size, pocket sense, passing touch and relative lack of athleticism...

... and Palmer's obviously panning out quite well in the NFL.

Actually, I've also had the luxury of watching both QBs since they were at RSM and Mater Dei. You could tell Palmer was gonna be a pro QB, even when he was slingin balls for Santa Margarita. I've never once had that same feeling about Leinart. The stats, the winning...all of it seems to indicate a solid pro career, but I'm thinkin he won't meet the expectations of most folks at the next level.

T1B

YOUR Top 5 Heisman List: Wk Ending 11/5

B.

Re: B.