ND - a regional team at best

[Sky]

From the O-Zone

Irish About a .500 Team in Big Ten
By John Porentas

Notre Dame Head Coach Charlie Weis turned some heads around the Big Ten this week when he characterized Notre Dame as a "national" team, explaining further how that was superior to being a "regional" team. And, according to Weis, teams with league affiliations (like those in the Big Ten) are generally thought of as regional powers, and therefore lack the "firepower" of a Notre Dame. For those reasons, Weis is against any league affiliations for the Irish.

That got us to thinking; how would the Fighting Irish have fared in the Big Ten this season?

Luckily, that question is half answered, because Notre Dame played exactly half of an eight-game Big Ten schedule this year. The Irish took on Purdue, Michigan, Michigan State and Ohio State, and walked away from that demi-league schedule with a 2-2 record, scoring wins over Purdue and Michigan, and losing to Michigan State and Ohio State.

So what if the Irish had played four more? That outcome certainly depends on who they played.

If an Irish Big Ten schedule was rounded out by Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota and Wisconsin (the teams that finished at bottom of the league that the Irish didn't play) there is some chance that the Irish would sweep through those four games and finish 6-2, though in our opinion, both Minnesota and Wisconsin would give the Irish enough problems to have a chance to win

That type of cupcake scheduling, however, isn't likely unless you are an independent. When you a league member, you play a schedule made by the league, and more likely than not, will have to face at least some real competition.

Notre Dame played two of this season's Big Ten non-bowl teams (Purdue and Michigan State), and one of the top teams in the league (Ohio State). We think it reasonable to put Penn State on our hypothetical Irish schedule, and we think the Lions would prevail in that game.

That would put he Irish at 2-3 in the league with three more games to play. Just for argument's sake, lets assume those games are against two of the lower finishing teams (Minnesota and Wisconsin) and fourth-place finisher Northwestern.

We know this is all guess work, but we don't believe the Irish would sweep those three. Their pass defense is suspect enough that Northwestern would score a bazillion points on them, and both Wisconsin and Minnesota have enough on both sides of the ball to make it a tough day for the Irish. We'll give then the benefit of the doubt though, and say that Notre Dame would win two of those final three games.

That would put the Irish at 4-4 in the league. To put that in perspective, that's the identical record that Minnesota managed this year, and that was good for a seventh place finish in the league. If they could sweep those last three, and we remain skeptical of that proposition, the Irish would finish at 5-3. Michigan, Iowa, Wisconsin and Northwestern all finished with that league record this season to establish a four-way tie for third.

[Killian]

Eh. Weak argument. I would like to see his opinion on why Wisconsin and Minnesota would give ND fits. Then I would put more merrit in his opinion. Until then, add his article with the rest of them on the heap.

[Sky]

Do your or did you think Auburn would have given ND a good game?

[See You Next Wednesday]

"That would put he Irish at 2-3 in the league with three more games to play. Just for argument's sake, lets assume those games are against two of the lower finishing teams (Minnesota and Wisconsin) and fourth-place finisher Northwestern. "

Umm, Wisconsin finished 3rd in the Big 10. This guy loses credibility.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Do your or did you think Auburn would have given ND a good game?

Not addressed to me, but I think on a neutral field that we beat Auburn. Our offense is the difference in that game.

I see you working on this question (i.e., Capital One Bowl). Truth be told, I think most of the board thought Auburn would win, the only reason Wisconsin got so many picks on the Pick 'Em was because most people thought the 12-point spot was a bit much (I myself thought Auburn would win but Wisconsin would cover in what I expected to be a low-scoring game).

Wisconsin was a tough team to figure this year, to be sure. Sometimes they looked like a BCS-caliber team, at other times they looked like they didn't belong in a bowl game. The loss to Iowa, when they were still in at least theoretical contention for an at-large BCS bid, was a real head-scratcher for me.

[Killian]

Yeah I think auburn would have given ND a good game. But ND's main struggles this year came with teams who ran a version of the spread, or had a QB who was willing to run the ball on a consistant basis. I think they would match up well with Auburn and it would be a helluva game. They match up better with Auburn than they did with OSU.

[Vito Corleone]

Not sure how this post got into this thread, kinda weird, its been a long 24 hrs

[Sky]

Umm, what????????

[Killian]

I think Vito meant to throw that in the thread I started.

[M2]

Yeah I think auburn would have given ND a good game. But ND's main struggles this year came with teams who ran a version of the spread, or had a QB who was willing to run the ball on a consistant basis.

Ummmm... ND had a problem with any team that had a winning record!

ND would be a 4th or 5th place team in the Pac 10.




m2

[Sky]

Well that man does have a lot of posting to do. Wouldn't we all love to be in his shoes right now.

And I don't really agree with everything this article says but you did go 2-2 against the big10 and only beat our 5th and 8th placed teams while losing to the #2 and #9 teams. Sure, you don't need to join the Big10 but to be a national team, shouldn't you beat some regional teams first?

[Killian]

Well that man does have a lot of posting to do. Wouldn't we all love to be in his shoes right now.

And I don't really agree with everything this article says but you did go 2-2 against the big10 and only beat our 5th and 8th placed teams while losing to the #2 and #9 teams. Sure, you don't need to join the Big10 but to be a national team, shouldn't you beat some regional teams first?

I don't have a problem with his opinion, just with the fact that he really had nothing to back up his claims that Wisky or Minnesota would give ND fits.

Besides, the author took Weis's comments out of context and is trying to spin it to look like Weis is saying that ND would dominate the Big 10. What he was saying is that ND has always had a national following, and part of their appeal to their followers is that they play games in every region of the country, giving everyone a chance to see them. Where as a Big 10 team typically only travels to one part of the country in the regular season (outside of the midwest) leaving their fans in other parts of the country very long/expensive trips if they want to see them in person.

[See You Next Wednesday]

He said Wisconsin or Minnesota would give ND a game. You don't think so?

[Killian]

It would be a game, but I believe ND would pull away in a similar fashion the way they did against Tennessee. ND's strength on defense was stopping the run, which I think they would do very well against Minnesota and to a much lesser degree, Wisconsin. I don't think either team has a consistant enough passing attack to hurt ND were they were most vulnerable. Also, I believe with ND controlling the clock by either running or passing, they would score and put either team in a position where they would have to pass to catch up and win, taking away the threat of the run, and the threat of a play action pass.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Besides, the author took Weis's comments out of context and is trying to spin it to look like Weis is saying that ND would dominate the Big 10. What he was saying is that ND has always had a national following, and part of their appeal to their followers is that they play games in every region of the country, giving everyone a chance to see them. Where as a Big 10 team typically only travels to one part of the country in the regular season (outside of the midwest) leaving their fans in other parts of the country very long/expensive trips if they want to see them in person.

Exactly. That's precisely the reason why ND wouldn't be interested in joining the Big Ten.

Even Babs has acknowledged this point, more or less, in the past, although in her mind it's somehow a bad thing.

[Sky]

It would be a game, but I believe ND would pull away in a similar fashion the way they did against Tennessee. ND's strength on defense was stopping the run, which I think they would do very well against Minnesota and to a much lesser degree, Wisconsin. I don't think either team has a consistant enough passing attack to hurt ND were they were most vulnerable. Also, I believe with ND controlling the clock by either running or passing, they would score and put either team in a position where they would have to pass to catch up and win, taking away the threat of the run, and the threat of a play action pass.

Like who?
Tennessee?

What, they don't deserve to be compared to anyone this year.

And ND's defense stop Minnesota's running game, that would be a tough task. Just ask the defense that put you guys in a world of hurt a few days ago.

[Killian]

Tennessee had a strong running game, and a very weak passing attack, similar to Minnesota and Wisconsin. ND did a good job all year of shutting down bigger backs who ran between the tackles. Minnesota's success against you guys came because of Capuito having an uncharastically good day throwing jump balls to his receivers. In the second half, Maroney didn't do too well against you guys. But ND has struggled with backs who are smaller with exceptionall speed, like Bush and Foster for Tennessee. Given all of this, and the fact that I believe ND would be able to pass on both teams, ND would eventually pull away.

[Sky]

Calhoun????

Maroney(sp)??????

I think they are both just a little better than Pitman.

And you think your 103rd ranked pass D would have done better with Capuito? I don't think so.

But really, I can just chalk this all up with the same comments you made about your offensive genius being able to figure out the buckeyes.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Calhoun????

Maroney(sp)??????

I think they are both just a little better than Pitman.

And you think your 103rd ranked pass D would have done better with Capuito? I don't think so.

Maybe. But Wisconsin and Minnesota, particularly the latter, don't have defenses on par with tOSU's, either.

Not to mention that neither has the talent at WR that tOSU has, either.

[Killian]

I didn't say anything about Pittman. ND did well with him also (until the long run to ice it), but Tressel used the play action in spots (and continued to use Pittman enough) to kill ND.

As far as Capuito, I don't think he is physically more talented than Palko or Henne, nor is the offense as wide open as a team like Purdue. QB's who were forced to stand in the pocket and make plays against ND, typically didn't fare too well. That's my reasoning for Capuito.

[See You Next Wednesday]

You are seriously underestimating the Badgers passing game, I'm afraid.

[Killian]

You are seriously underestimating the Badgers passing game, I'm afraid.

I may be. I didn't watch Wisconsin enough to form a great opinion on their passing game, I'm basing it off of basically the Michigan game, and parts of the Northwestern and Auburn game.

[See You Next Wednesday]

Fair enough, but Stocco threw for over 300 yards in each of and a total of 6 TDs in both the Auburn and Northwestern games.

I wish Wisconsin would schedule ND, or somebody decent OOC for a change.

[FLW Buckeye]

Dayum!



FWIW: Herbstreit has the Domers 4th in his preseason 2006 rankings, not that it means anything.

[Vito Corleone]

Killian was right that post was meant for a different thread, not sure how it got into this one.

For what its worth, I don't think Minnesota would have beaten the Irish, but I do think Iowa would have given them a very good game. They can throw and would have lit up the ND secondary.

Wisconsin is a tossup, they have a very solid defense but are somewhat limited on offense.

I can say that the Irish would have owned the Big 12 North. :D

[T REX]

ND goes 1-2 vs top 25 competition....2-2 vs Big Ten and these freaking homers want to say they would win the rest of their games vs the Big 10.

This is why ND fan is one of the worst. Complete myopia.

Juts say that you weren't all that great this year and benefitted from an easy schedule.

[Killian]

ND goes 1-2 vs top 25 competition....2-2 vs Big Ten and these freaking homers want to say they would win the rest of their games vs the Big 10.

This is why ND fan is one of the worst. Complete myopia.

Juts say that you weren't all that great this year and benefitted from an easy schedule.

Again, why do you feel the need to add this into every thread that has to do with ND, if you don't care about them? Is it because Weis accomplished something that your lover, Urban Meyer, admitted he couldn't do?

[PSUFAN]

We think it reasonable to put Penn State on our hypothetical Irish schedule, and we think the Lions would prevail in that game.

We'll see next year.

[Terry in Crapchester]

We think it reasonable to put Penn State on our hypothetical Irish schedule, . . .

Truth be told, imho a provision that ND played Penn State every year would be a sine qua non of ND joining the Big Ten in any scenario.

The largest portion of ND's fanbase actually lives in the northeast, not the midwest. A Big Ten schedule would predominantly jeopardize, from ND's perspective, series against teams in the northeast, and an annual matchup with Penn State would be necessary to ensure that ND had at least one road game in the northeast every year.

. . . and we think the Lions would prevail in that game.

We'll see next year.

Agreed.

[Goober McTuber]

If ND were to join the Big 10, I think it would be a given that ND and PSU would play each other every year, as they would undoubtedly be in the same division.

Edit: On second thought, it would not be a slam dunk to slot them in the East division. Geographically, the East would include OSU, Michigan, MSU and PSU. West would include UW, Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois, and Northwestern. Left would be the 3 Indiana schools.

The westernmost is Purdue, and based on your statement about the ND following in the northeast, they probably would wind up in the East, along with Indiana.

[PSUFAN]

Apart from PSU, what matchup against a "northeastern" team do you think is important? BC? Syracuse? Army?

[Terry in Crapchester]

Apart from PSU, what matchup against a "northeastern" team do you think is important? BC? Syracuse? Army?

From an historical standpoint, ND would undoubtedly continue with Navy. FYI, Navy's "home" game in that series is always on a neutral field, usually (but not always) in the northeast.

Pitt is another northeastern team with a long-standing series against ND, but if ND were to join the Big Ten, it undoubtedly would put a strain on conference relationships if Pitt were to continue to play ND and not play Penn State.

If ND were to join the Big 10, I think it would be a given that ND and PSU would play each other every year, as they would undoubtedly be in the same division.

Not necessarily. The alignment favored by Michigan and tOSU (which, incidentally, would put those two schools in different divisions) is a North-South alignment which would have ND in the North Division and Penn State in the South Division.

Note that all of the above is strictly hypothetical, at any rate. I don't see ND joining the Big Ten, or any other conference for that matter, anytime soon.

[Goober McTuber]

I would think the East-West scenario makes more sense than North-South, just based on travel distances.

[BraveFan]

From an historical standpoint, ND would undoubtedly continue with Navy. FYI, Navy's "home" game in that series is always on a neutral field, usually (but not always) in the northeast.

I know they've been playing forever..... do you by chance know if this game was ever played in Annapolis? I've lived here through a couple football seasons now..... it would be awesome to see it played here. NMC Memorial is not all that small of a stadium.... probably 30/40K.... and it's a really cool town.

[Terry in Crapchester]

From an historical standpoint, ND would undoubtedly continue with Navy. FYI, Navy's "home" game in that series is always on a neutral field, usually (but not always) in the northeast.

I know they've been playing forever.....

Continuous since 1927. My bad in this regard -- I thought it was 1930.

do you by chance know if this game was ever played in Annapolis?

Apparently not. http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/di ... eamid=2173

Interesting (and I didn't know this before) that this series was played almost exclusively at neutral sites until the mid-1950's.

I've lived here through a couple football seasons now..... it would be awesome to see it played here. NMC Memorial is not all that small of a stadium.... probably 30/40K.... and it's a really cool town.

I don't know for sure, but my best guess is that ticket demand is the reason why it's never been played at Annapolis.

[Terry in Crapchester]

I would think the East-West scenario makes more sense than North-South, just based on travel distances.

Agree with you on that point, but that apparently is not what the powers that be would want. In their defense, there's potentially a huge disparity between the two divisions in an East/West format, not only in terms of talent but also (and perhaps more importantly) in terms of fan appeal, particularly if ND were to join and be placed in the East.

[Killian]

One of the reasons it's never in Annapolis is because of revenue. When they play at a neutral site, it's typically a 70k-80k stadium that sells out, and ND gives Navy the home share of the gate.