Abraham

[SunCoastSooner]

I don’t know if I will really get deep into Isaac or Jacob in this post, probably not, but we’ll see. This post is all speculation it is not to be taken as me trying to point out undeniable fact to anyone. If you have something to ask, something you might disagree on, or simply want to ask a question… do so. Maybe it will be something I haven’t heard before and I can learn something new. Learning more about this subject will likely always be a goal of mine and why I devote so much of my own personal time to the subject.

First off Abraham started out as Abram but I will simply refer to him as Abraham throughout the post because that is what he is most recognized as. I could have started this discussion out with Adam and Eve and we all had arguments as to whether or not they were literally the first people on earth, the first people that God breathed a Soul into, or if they never existed at all but I won’t; it is too subjective and speculative and there isn’t really a way to argue it in any manner historically, it is an article of faith to the highest degree; even higher than Jesus if you asked my opinion. Noah is sort of the same why and besides Abraham is recognized as the patriarch of the Hebrew Religion.

It’s hard to decipher in the bible itself the time period that Abraham lived. The biblical passages leave a wide berth for his existence but there are also non biblical legends concerning Abraham outside of the bible and many of those are included in the Qur'an. Some of these if read are hard to swallow as being Hebrew but they have been shown, by experts in the field of linguistic studies, to be written down from much older oral traditions. These Legends as I will call them significantly narrows the time frame for Abraham’s existence. The stories as I said are at times at odds with Hebrew religion but what lends credibility to them in my eyes, and many others, is that they are certainly not at odds with Sumerian life.

Abraham was from Ur in Sumer. No one is sure where the Sumerians originated from but they believed to be from Dilmun which is believed to have been in modern Bahrain.

The most influential, non theological, event to have affected Abraham’s life probably happened shortly before his birth and not actually during his life time; sometime around 2000 BC the Elamites sacked not Only Ur but sixteen other Sumerian cities. Most temples were pulled to the ground, valuables looted, and most that survived were taken into slavery. Apparently Abraham’s family was among those who were left behind. The people of Ur had lost faith in the Moon God that they believed was their cities own god and began worshipping “household” deities. The term household is a little misleading, not every household had their own gods, the people of Ur had regressed back to clan or tribal alliances though still being a an urbanized culture, the leaders of these groups were most often in possession of the “household” gods they worshipped. This leads me to the legends of Abraham smashing his father’s idols. This indicates at least one thing in the biblical txt is correct, that Abraham was defiantly a leader of peoples, a clan, a tribe, a family, call it what you may but his family were their leaders and being in possession of the idols shows us such.

Ur was declining and people were beginning to leave the city in droves, a city that’s population at one time was as much as 50,000 was reduced to about 15,000 in less than a century and a half. Sumerians had been influencing the known world for hundreds of years; cultures such as the Celts in northern Spain, Ireland, and the British Isles are a testament to this as they have been shown through numerous different methods, including DNA, to be decedents of Semitics.

Abraham made the decision for his people that they would leave Ur and the natural direction was northwards , up traditional trade routes along the two rivers (Euphrates and Tigris) in search of a new home where he would be at peace with his God. The reason for him leading his people out was really probably rather simple the heathen nomads from the north, who worshipped different Gods (if they had an organized religion at all which we have no indications of from archaeology) which Abraham most likely found absolutely unacceptable. Political discontent is repeatedly expressed as theological discontent throughout the bible and this situation is most likely no different.

Eventually Abraham made his trek westward along the normal and typical trade routes of the time, and though not the shortest route you did not have to contend with the relentless heat of the dessert. When he arrived in Canaan there were very few settlements but a land of nomadic tent dwellers, just as Abraham had become by this time.

Something else that would deeply affect his descendents was occurring at this time as well, Egypt had become an empire, Upper and Lower Egypt had been united approximately a millennium before and had slowly began transforming from nomads and tribes with small settlements to an urbanized and powerful culture. Egypt was becoming the power of the region… to an extent.

Most don't realize this but the Kingdom of Egypt was ruled as often by outsiders as ever actually ruled by Egyptians. Nubians, Greeks, and even Semetics have ruled just as often in Egypt as a truely Egyption King/Pharoah and this will play a very large part when I get into Isaac, Jacob, and ESPECIALLY Joseph..

[SunCoastSooner]

I know this post wasn't all too controversal but it was neccisary to lay the ground work for when I get to Joseph as I can assure we will be having a "lively" discussion concerning Joseph and his time spent in Egypt.

Also I think I may have skipped over something rather important. It is most likely that Abraham wasn't a worshipper or even ever had heard of a deity called Yahweh/Jehovah. YWHW is mentioned no where in the bible until the time of Moses. The God of Abraham was likely El hence his great grand sons name Israel (meaning "El Increases" but christinaity and modern Judaism has bastardized into the "The Lord Increases"). Throughout the Hebrew text El is used in these portions of the bible and not the YWHW associated with modern God.

[SunCoastSooner]

Most don't realize this but the Kingdom of Egypt was ruled as often by outsiders as ever actually ruled by Egyptians. Nubians, Greeks, and even Semetics have ruled just as often in Egypt as a truely Egyption King/Pharoah and this will play a very large part when I get into Isaac, Jacob, and ESPECIALLY Joseph..

Wrong again. All of those foreign dynasties were a brief squirt of piss in the ocean compared to the thousands upon thousands of years of Egyptian culture.

The Nubians ruled for 70 years. The Hyksos ruled for a little over a hundred years. The Persians for 120 years. The Greeks for about three hundred years.

What is remarkable is the fact that none of those foreign rulers had the slightest influence over Egyptian culture. The Nubians and Hyksos were absorbed entirely and the Greek dynasty very enthusiastically adopted Egyptian culture and customs. That might have been a tactic to gain support against the Persians who were hated.

The Bible isn't a very reliable historical source. There are some nuggets of real history there, but you have to sift through a ton of bullshit.

The Hyksos (Hyksos means "Desert Princes" though some have tried to say that it actually means Shepherd Kings) ruled for atleast six generations, closer to 200 years (circa 1782 BC - 1570 BC "The Second Intermediate Period") but thanks for introducing them; they are going to play a very in depth roll in future discussions :D . And no you are wrong many of the early Pharoahs were of Nubian decent though not actually ruling from Nubia, they became Egyptian and were worshipped by Egyptians through the cult of Amon-Ra/Horus. They also grafted their religion upon Egypt as well; the Cult of Amon-Ra is not an Egyptian Cult but a Nubian cult. The archaelogical evidence backs this up as well; the oldest (by far) of all Amon-Ra Temples is far to south to be of Egyptian orgin. For centuries the Priests of Amon-Ra would come up from Nubia to crown the new Horus in Egypt, even while Nubia and Egypt were seperate. This is also well documented as well and The History Channel even has a One hour special about this subject that they show about once every three months and I believe was most recently on a couple of weekends ago.

Also the statement that the Hyksos did not influence Egyptian life in the least I disagree with greatly. Ever hear of chariots? I am sure you have, they aren't Egyptian, they are Hyksos in orgin. The Hyksos in the very least completly changed the way Egyptions looked at warfare and tactics. The Egyptians had far more influence upon the Hyksos than the reverse but to say they did not effect Egyptian culture or society in the least is simply not true. Also after the murder of Seqenenre Tao II (the Egyptian Heir and the last real pharoah) there was no longer the thought that the Pharoah was an unassailable patriarch and god/Horus of the people, From that point on the Egyptian "Pharoah" was nothing more than a king looked upon as the "Chosen" Horus.

[SunCoastSooner]

No one is sure where the Sumerians originated from but they believed to be from Dilmun which is believed to have been in modern Bahrain.

Wrong. The presence of Ubaid pottery in Bahrain does mean that the Sumerians came from Bahrain. It means they traded with them.

The Sumerians were non-Semitic people who came in to Mesopotamia from the east not the west.

You are are both correct and wrong at the same time mv, allow me to explain. You are using the scholorly definition of semitic which revolves around languages; I am using the biblical/theological definition semetic in the post which is simply descendant of Shem, one of Noah's sons, after the flood. The Summarians, biblicaly are considered descendants of Shem and therefore biblicaly are Semetic. Semetic languages were also widely spoken throughout Sumer and Mesopotamia, as well, by the nomadic tribes that came in and out of their lands. I appologize for the confussion. The Elamites are also a good example of this as they are descendant of Shem but do not speak a semetic language. Biblically they are Semetic as well but scholorarly they are not considered Semetic as they spoke an Elamo-Dravidian (sp?) language.

[BSmack]

This is also well documented as well and The History Channel even has a One hour special about this subject that they show about once every three months and I believe was most recently on a couple of weekends ago.

Where are you getting this pathetic bullshit from?

Does that help?

[SunCoastSooner]

Semetic languages were also widely spoken throughout Sumer and Mesopotamia, as well, by the nomadic tribes that came in and out of their lands.

...but not by Sumerians. Sumerian is an isolate language.

But as I said not everyone who lived there spoke the Sumerian language. Kind of like not everyone here in America speaks English :?. Ur was also widely influenced from outside sources more than just about any other Sumerian City State because of its location and ability for trade. Abraham lived in Sumeria no where does it say in the bible he was an actual Sumerian of Sumerian stock but just that he lived there, and the bible definatly leaves the objective reader to the conclusion that Abraham wasn't exactly a permanent city dweller as he just hopped up and led his people on/back on the road (again possibly) and was nomadic. Being a nomad would definatly leave the possibility that he was Semetic speaking a semetic language and actualy I believe that the nomadic aspect of this makes that possibility even more the compelling.

Good questions though mv.

[SunCoastSooner]

The Hyksos (Hyksos means "Desert Princes" though some have tried to say that it actually means Shepherd Kings) ruled for atleast six generations, closer to 200 years (circa 1782 BC - 1570 BC "The Second Intermediate Period") but thanks for introducing them;

No, they didn't. 1674BC-1567BC is not 200 years.

That is when they seized the throne, mv. The Hyksos did not just up and invade Egypt with an Army. They slowly migrated, and infact migrated even further south than Egypt and then came back up the Nile. It was a slow process that took place during "The Second Intermeidiate Period" it wasn't the typical conquering or military invasion, it was as much more a social invasion first and a "Military Coup" that came later.

[SunCoastSooner]

Wrong again. All of those foreign dynasties were a brief squirt of piss in the ocean compared to the thousands upon thousands of years of Egyptian culture.

The Nubians ruled for 70 years. The Hyksos ruled for a little over a hundred years. The Persians for 120 years. The Greeks for about three hundred years.

What is remarkable is the fact that none of those foreign rulers had the slightest influence over Egyptian culture. The Nubians and Hyksos were absorbed entirely and the Greek dynasty very enthusiastically adopted Egyptian culture and customs. That might have been a tactic to gain support against the Persians who were hated.

The Bible isn't a very reliable historical source. There are some nuggets of real history there, but you have to sift through a ton of bullshit.

The Hyksos (Hyksos means "Desert Princes" though some have tried to say that it actually means Shepherd Kings) ruled for atleast six generations, closer to 200 years (circa 1782 BC - 1570 BC "The Second Intermediate Period") but thanks for introducing them; they are going to play a very in depth roll in future discussions :D . And no you are wrong many of the early Pharoahs were of Nubian decent though not actually ruling from Nubia, they became Egyptian and were worshipped by Egyptians through the cult of Amon-Ra/Horus. They also grafted their religion upon Egypt as well; the Cult of Amon-Ra is not an Egyptian Cult but a Nubian cult. The archaelogical evidence backs this up as well; the oldest (by far) of all Amon-Ra Temples is far to south to be of Egyptian orgin. For centuries the Priests of Amon-Ra would come up from Nubia to crown the new Horus in Egypt, even while Nubia and Egypt were seperate. This is also well documented as well and The History Channel even has a One hour special about this subject that they show about once every three months and I believe was most recently on a couple of weekends ago.

Also the statement that the Hyksos did not influence Egyptian life in the least I disagree with greatly. Ever hear of chariots? I am sure you have, they aren't Egyptian, they are Hyksos in orgin. The Hyksos in the very least completly changed the way Egyptions looked at warfare and tactics. The Egyptians had far more influence upon the Hyksos than the reverse but to say they did not effect Egyptian culture or society in the least is simply not true. Also after the murder of Seqenenre Tao II (the Egyptian Heir and the last real pharoah) there was no longer the thought that the Pharoah was an unassailable patriarch and god/Horus of the people, From that point on the Egyptian "Pharoah" was nothing more than a king looked upon as the "Chosen" Horus.

Where are you getting this pathetic bullshit from? Amen-ra was not a Nubian god. It was adopted by the Nubians.

Sorry I believe you have that backwards. I am getting it from numerous publications, including books, periodical articles, and as I said the History Channel has a pretty decent 1 hour program on the Amon-Ra Cult, how it came from Nubia, and how the High Priests of the Cult for Hundreds of years were Nubians and not Egyptians.

[SunCoastSooner]

No, they didn't. 1674BC-1567BC is not 200 years.

That is when they seized the throne, mv. The Hyksos did not just up and invade Egypt with an Army. They slowly migrated, and infact migrated even further south than Egypt and then came back up the Nile. It was a slow process that took place during "The Second Intermeidiate Period" it wasn't the typical conquering or military invasion, it was as much more a social invasion first and a "Military Coup" that came later.

You weren't talking about a period of "slow migration". You were talking about a period of rule. They "ruled" for a little over a hundred years.

Okay I cede this to you. You are correct. :D

But I hunted down some of the articles on the cult of Amon/Amen-Ra (spelled both ways, guess it just depends on who is spelling it) so I could make sure I wasn't making an ass of myself. It appears we both are doing a fine job of it. :D

Amon and Ra were two seperate cults in the beggining. Amon = Nubian and Ra = Egyptians; much like Jupiter (Roman) and Zeus (Greek) were basically the same god from different cultures. Amon and Ra were merged when the Nubians accepted the pantheon of Egyptian God (so you are correct about the Nubians converting to Egyptian religion) but the High Priesthood did remain in Nubia for hundreds of years after the merger on pantheons and did come up from Nubia to crown the new Horus. The oldest temple discovered dedicated to Amen/ Ra/ Amen-Ra is in what would be considered Nubia and not Egypt.

[SunCoastSooner]

Sorry I believe you have that backwards. I am getting it from numerous publications, including books, periodical articles, and as I said the History Channel has a pretty decent 1 hour program on the Amon-Ra Cult, how it came from Nubia, and how the High Priests of the Cult for Hundreds of years were Nubians and not Egyptians.

Sorry, but you're full of shit. It absolutely was not from Nubia. The worship of Ra was well established going back at least to the 4th dynasty. Higher Nubian culture was largely a result of centuries of Egyptian colonization.

This is more that Black Athena type revisionist bullshit without a shred of evidence to support it.

Nubians were black not Egyptian. I believe that you are contradicting another conversation that we had a quit sometime ago where it was you who led me to research this particular area of the subject. The Egyptians did help cultivate Nubia but Nubia did the same for Egypt. Most of the Egyption Military (before the Hyksos) followed Nubian military tactics and much if not most of their military was Nubian in orgin for centuries, though I am not as familiar with that time frame. Egypt didn't create Nubia as you are trying to imply though. Egyptians were not black, for the most part, and Nubia certainly was.

[SunCoastSooner]

The oldest temple discovered dedicated to Amen/ Ra/ Amen-Ra is in what would be considered Nubia and not Egypt.

Heliopolis is in downtown Cairo not Nubia and Cairo has never been considered to be part of anything other than Egypt.

Sorry this temple is even shown in the History Channel program I discussed earlier and it is a fairly recent discovery, and is far older than any previous temple dedicated to Amen-Ra and it is Nubia. It is considered a very significant find as well.

[SunCoastSooner]

Nubians were black not Egyptian. I believe that you are contradicting another conversation that we had a quit sometime ago where it was you who led me to research this particular area of the subject. The Egyptians did help cultivate Nubia but Nubia did the same for Egypt. Most of the Egyption Military (before the Hyksos) followed Nubian military tactics and much if not most of their military was Nubian in orgin for centuries, though I am not as familiar with that time frame. Egypt didn't create Nubia as you are trying to imply though. Egyptians were not black, for the most part, and Nubia certainly was.

Yes, Egyptian made extensive use of Nubian mercenaries and there was a great deal of trade between the cultures, but the Egyptians were far in advance of Nubia and the cultural influences were largely one way. Nubia adopted Egyptian religion, Egyptian style architecture etc. The earliest Nubian culture known as "A-group" were semi-nomadic goat herders at the time of Egypt's First Dynasty.

This profound influence shouldn't be so surprising seeing as how even the Greeks were very, very deeply impressed with Egypt.

The fact that the most powerful empire in the region effected its bordering cultures doesn't shock me in the least and I never argued that Egypt did not greatly influence Nubia anywhere in this thread. I was specifically talking about a cult. Do you think that nomads and herdsmen were not capable of religion?

[SunCoastSooner]

Sorry this temple is even shown in the History Channel program I discussed earlier and it is a fairly recent discovery, and is far older than any previous temple dedicated to Amen-Ra and it is Nubia. It is considered a very significant find as well.

Does this site have a name or is it a secret?

Pardon me if I'm not overly impressed with the level of "scholarship" displayed by the History Channel.

It's not a secret but I'll be damned if I can recall the name.

I agree with you about the History Channel though. They do tend to fuck up as much as they get correct. If it were just the History Channel that I heard about it from I probably would never have mentioned it. I'll have to go to storage sometime to try and find one of the periodicals where the discovery was made. It was a couple of years ago that I read about it and most of my periodicals go to storage after about 12-18 months or my wife would castrate me for all the magazines lying about. I won't let her throw away thing dealing with religion and theology though; we compromised by allowing me to get a storage space at an indoor storage facility in Fort Walton. I have to go out there and get some crap out of there for our nephew and neices anyways sometime this week and I'll see if I can find the periodical but I can't say definitivly that I will be able to hunt it down with all the shit I have in there right now from the house. Once we get back into the house and get all the furniture out of there I am sure I would be able to find it but it is a couple months down the road before I expect our floors to be refinished.

[SunCoastSooner]

Oh and something I overlooked in one of your "rebuttell" posts was that the Hyksos were assimilated into Egyptian culture and sociciety which they were not. After their rule had come to and end and the Egyptians regained their autonomythey drove the Hyksos north towards the Canaan and enslaved those that didn't run..

[SunCoastSooner]

Oh and something I overlooked in one of your "rebuttell" posts was that the Hyksos were assimilated into Egyptian culture and sociciety which they were not.

Sure they were. As you pointed out earlier this was a gradual process not a clean invasion and explusion of said invaders. The Hyksos also did not rule all of Egypt and some of their sites, Avaris in particular, were very much "Egyptianized" in comparison to their cousins back in Canaan.

They were very much Egyptionized during their time in Egypt but they were also driven out and those not driven out enslaved. Their Egyptionization would greatly influence Canaan and their cousins they would return to there as well. You're correct they didn't have controll of the entire Egyptian Empire but they did have controll of what mattered most, including The Egyptian heir to being Pharoah basically on home arrest in Thebes.

They didn't interfer with Egyptian religious practices and appear to have adopted Set into their own pantheon. It is similar to the Mongol experience in China.

This doesn't conradict what I will be presenting later, to an extent. You're just getting ahead of me. The Hyksos most certainly did accept Set but they did also interfere by attempting to elevate him above Amen-Ra for a couple of generations and attempting to force the Egyptian priesthood into accepting Semitic priests in to the priesthood of Set. The worship of the Crocadile in Hyksos society pre dates their migration to Egypt though and is likely a large part of the reason that Set was so readily accepted by the Hyksos. Keep in mind that deities were not thought of the same way as we think of a god/God today, they were a regional deity who who was in controll of the people and enviroment within their confines and not a worldly ruling omnipotent being.

The expulsion was not as gradual as the take over either mv, it was a military uprising by Egypt, most likely in response to the murder of Seqenerne Tao II, who was the "real" pharoah most likely murdered by a Hyksos.

Something that I think many Christians here will find interesting is that the word for Crocadile in Egyptian is the root of the word describing their savior, messiah. The word messiah comes from the Egyptian word messah meaning crocadile. It came to mean annointed because the Egyptians annointed their Kings and Pharoahs with Crocadile fat.

[SunCoastSooner]

Something that I think many Christians here will find interesting is that the word for Crocadile in Egyptian is the root of the word describing their savior, messiah. The word messiah comes from the Egyptian word messah meaning crocadile. It came to mean annointed because the Egyptians annointed their Kings and Pharoahs with Crocadile fat.

Please tell me you aren't peddling Tom Harpur's twaddle.

Nope... I haven't really been exposed to him much, sorry. I have been wanting to read his book "The Pagen Christ" but honestly his work just isn't high enough up on my priority list.

I take it that Harpur uses this as a basis for a theory? If so and you are familiar with it please explain. You have my attention.

[SunCoastSooner]

He's a fringe nutter. Your time is yours to waste, but I wouldn't advise wasting it on him.

For the record, Messiah does not have an Egyptian etymology.

That isn't my understanding of it. Messiah certainly isn't originally from the Hebrew, Aramaic, or Ahramaic languages as has been shown by experts for decades now, including Barbra Thiering who is an expert beyond either of our knowledges in the field of communications and Linguistics. Did you get this from a website of some sort?

Yeah I figured he was a fringe nutter but I read just about anything on the subject I can get my hands on. The nutters usually get pushed down the list as to priority which is why Harpur has never been purchased and read.

[SunCoastSooner]

Messiah certainly isn't originally from the Hebrew, Aramaic, or Ahramaic languages as has been shown by experts for decades now, including Barbra Thiering who is an expert beyond either of our knowledges in the field of communications and Linguistics.

Sorry, there is nothing even remotely compelling to indicate that the word is anything other than Hebrew in origin.

Yes there is and numerous experts including Dr. Thiering, who as stated previously, knows a far greater deal about this subject than the both of us combined.

[SunCoastSooner]

No, there isn't. Period. EOS.

The Hebrew language has it's own word for crocadile. It's an idiotic argument. A vague phonological similarity does not indicate a shared origin.

Thiering is a fringe nutter in her own right. Isn't she one those Holy Blood, Holy Grail whack jobs who believe Jesus was somehow spirited off the Cross to live happily ever after?

No she isn't. Atleast nothing I have read from her indicates this but I have only read some select pieces by her and she has written many books on the subject. She has a chair at a University in Sydney, Australia. Her best known work involves a study of the writing in the new testament concerning a possible code that may have been encrypted into the NT for subversive opposition to Rome in Canaan fertile crescent. Religious nutters tend to attack for this but she is a rather well respected scholar in her field... up until her publication concerning the NT "code" she was considered one of the foremost minds in her field. Since her reputation has not been as spotless but I think much of that is due to the Christian opposition to her theory and the work I read by her only presents this as theory and not conclusive.

Besides she isn't the only person who has prosed the Messah to messiah either.

[SunCoastSooner]

Also something that dawned on that brought red flags out about your post concerning Messah and Messiah. Messiah isn't a Hebrew word nor is aramaic; Messiah is a bastardization of the word Meschiach by Christianity.

[SunCoastSooner]

Her best known work involves a study of the writing in the new testament concerning a possible code that may have been encrypted into the NT for subversive opposition to Rome in Canaan fertile crescent.

Right....and her "code" revealed that Christ didn't die on the cross and lived happily ever after with Mary Magdelene.

She's a barmy nutjob.

Like I said I never read that from her. I only read her work on the code. Although I do believe I have heard theories about Jesus living based on her code and the use of the phrase "the word of God" being Jesus but I don't remember her ever stating that theory in the work that I have read and that is something I would typicaly remember.

[SunCoastSooner]

No, there isn't. Period. EOS.

I've found numerous articles and publications that state the opposite. Everything from nutter Dr. Ghost Wolf to Peake's Commentary on the Bible. So it is far from the end of the story just because you say so mv. I tend to think that people with Doctorates in their field are far more qualified to discuss and comment on the subject than either you or I are qualified to do so.

[SunCoastSooner]

That's your problem. You're far too easily impressed by cranks with academic credentials.

It isn't an Egyptian word. Sorry, guy. Crocs aren't kosher animals. It is unlikely in the extreme that early Hebrews would be in the least bit impressed with the practice of dousing ones head with the fat of an unclean animal let alone adopt the name as the savior of their people.

It also ignores the fact that Hebrews already had their own word for crocs.

Bottom line, it's just stupid.

The only thing I find stupid about this is your argument.

There was no such thing as the Hebrew people at the time period we are discussing, period that is END OF STORY. Unless you are trying to imply that the Hyksos are the Hebrew people ofcourse? But I would think that their semitic brethren the Haibru/Apiru would have a stronger claim to that than the Hyksos. There was no such thing as Kosher food yet either and wouldn't be until centuries later. I also never implied in any way that messiah meant crocadile. What does Hebrew (a people who didn't even exist and is even debatable wheather their patriarch was around yet) having a word for Crocadile has to do with it at any rate? The fact that Hebrews and Egyptians have different words for an animal has no bearing on wheather over century of time with contact between Egyptians and semitic people that a word associated with annointment in Egypt could become the word to mean annointed to a very close regional neighbor. Many words since the dawn of language has done this I am sure. I am sure that some one more familiar with it could do the same with hundreds of words from French influencing English or vice versa.

Normally you make a very good argument mv, this is not one of those times, in fact I think what you just posted and I quoted is about the weakest argument I have ever seen you put forward.

[SunCoastSooner]

That's your problem. You're far too easily impressed by cranks with academic credentials.

Yeah cause it isn't as though Peake's commentary on the Bible isn't used by anyone with within the academic community as a reference material.

[LTS TRN 2]

"Barmy"...now why does that word so perfectly capture the character and direction of this thread? Bab's, hat's off for actually backing some claims--and in the service of Nutter Slapping. Ancient Egypt and its influences is always a fascinating subject, but what point is even being remotely developed in this exchange? Is Nutter here going to actually start spewin' some Bible stories? This classic Floridian sounds a lot like the Bay Area's own late night televangelist Nutter, "Dr." Gene Scott (who has been dead for a couple years, though eternity apparently is a phenomenon of videotape).

[SunCoastSooner]

"Barmy"...now why does that word so perfectly capture the character and direction of this thread? Bab's, hat's off for actually backing some claims--and in the service of Nutter Slapping. Ancient Egypt and its influences is always a fascinating subject, but what point is even being remotely developed in this exchange? Is Nutter here going to actually start spewin' some Bible stories? This classic Floridian sounds a lot like the Bay Area's own late night televangelist Nutter, "Dr." Gene Scott (who has been dead for a couple years, though eternity apparently is a phenomenon of videotape).

Can someone decipher this for me. I didn't get my ring out of the cereal box this month. :?

[Diogenes]

Translation...

From what I can tell, Nicky thinks your a 'christer'.

I think. Maybe.

[SunCoastSooner]

Translation...

From what I can tell, Nicky thinks your a 'christer'.

I think. Maybe.

Did I mention...

[Diogenes]

I logged out and appearantly I can't post make anymore anonymous posts. :wink:

Anyway, as to the subject of the thread, I'm waiting to see where your going with this before correc...er commenting on anything.

[The Whistle Is Screaming]

Anyway, as to the subject of the thread, I'm waiting to see where your going with this before correc...er commenting on anything.

2nd

[SunCoastSooner]

Anyway, as to the subject of the thread, I'm waiting to see where your going with this before correc...er commenting on anything.

2nd

Really if you want to have an idea of where I am heading with all this it isn't towards some egyptian Mystery cult if that is what you are thinking. But I do believe that Egypt influenced Judaism as any slave owner and neighbor would. I am also going to show why Joseph being a major leader in Egypt is not as far fetched as many think through historical means rather than through simply biblical proof. I believe in the vast majority of the OT it is the NT mytholoogy where we part paths in beliefs.

Arguing about OT timeline is rather pointless as well as no one will ever be able to show beyond a shadow of a doubt what the timeline was. I am just giving a logical opinion and starting with Abraham. Today or tomarrow I will get to his son and grandson and then after that I am sure the real fun will begin with Joseph discussion as I will go out on a bit of a limb with my opinions on his life.

[The Whistle Is Screaming]

SCS,
I'm just curious as to where you are going with this. It always interests me as a Jew as to how others view my religion/heritage/history. I will not pretend to be a religion buff or have any extensive knowledge, but I wnet through Hebrew school & have read some. I can read & write Hebrew, but don't "really" understand that much of it. I read somewhere (a while ago so I don't remeber the source, but it seemed reputable at the time) that one major issue that Jewish scholars have when non-Jews discuss Jewish history is that they usually use translated text in their research. Translations can be up to interpretation and these different interpretations are used to support one agenda or another. The New Testiment in it;'s many different forms has hundreds of major differences since it's inception and thousands of smaller ones, where The Torah (because each one is hand written) has less than 10.

Again, just curious as to where this is going. If I have anything meaningful to add I will.

[SunCoastSooner]

SCS,
I'm just curious as to where you are going with this. It always interests me as a Jew as to how others view my religion/heritage/history. I will not pretend to be a religion buff or have any extensive knowledge, but I wnet through Hebrew school & have read some. I can read & write Hebrew, but don't "really" understand that much of it. I read somewhere (a while ago so I don't remeber the source, but it seemed reputable at the time) that one major issue that Jewish scholars have when non-Jews discuss Jewish history is that they usually use translated text in their research. Translations can be up to interpretation and these different interpretations are used to support one agenda or another. The New Testiment in it;'s many different forms has hundreds of major differences since it's inception and thousands of smaller ones, where The Torah (because each one is hand written) has less than 10.

Again, just curious as to where this is going. If I have anything meaningful to add I will.

Yeah that is a huge problem TWIS. For a very long time I considered converting to Judaism. My wife's friend has been promising to teach me Hebrew for some time now and it has never happened. I have a number of books written in Hebrew that I really want to read in a bad way but I just simply can't because I haven't learned the language. By this summer I am going to take matters in my own hand and learn myself; the messianic temple here in Destin offers Hebrew classes to anyone who wants to learn it without any religious implications each summer and I am going to take it, I think, if I have time. There are so many words that there is no real translation for into English is also part of the problem.

A lot of my disagreements with Christians in these discussions stem from translation errors. When discussing something concerning the OT I always check the Jewish sites first for their take before going to the Christian one. For many years I argued I didn't know how to respond to Christian claims to prophecy of Jesus. It wasn't until talking to a Rabbi at Beth Shalom in FWB that he enlightened and even directed me to a website (all be it with an ageda) that is rather interesting. There are something like only 12 or 16 prophecies concerning a messiah and not the 360+ that Christianity claims. That is really one of my biggest problems with Christian arguers, it isn't really their faith but the way they try and hijack Judaism for their own agendas and claim that OT passages mean something other than what they really mean; often, intentionally, without using context because once the other person discovers the context it becomes obvious that the argument is FOS.

I also try and use some historical context with the OT and that has really been what has formed my opinions on ancient religious history.

I think you find that I am just presenting my opinon on history and a possible time line that matches history as well as the OT/Torrah/Pentauch/ect.

[The Whistle Is Screaming]

SCS,
I admire your desire to learn Hebrew to better understand the OT/Torah, but I would not recommend going to a "Messianic Temple", somehow I got on a mailing list for one in San Raphael, Ca and some of the shit the put out is crazy. I have nothing against people who wish to observe a religion, but you can't mix Judaism & Christianity anymore than you could combine Christianity to Muslim or Buhddism (Christers for Mohammed? or Buhdda) If there is a college nearby that offers Hebrew you'll be better off. If not, try a Reform Temple, they're most tolerant of you Goyum :D.


BTW, to the best of my limited knowledge, there isn't actually any reference to a "Messiah", but to a "Moschiach" (sp) or anointed one. I used to have some sites that saved that reviewed these translation issues, but I lost them somewhere along the line. I'll see if I can dig them up.

[Cuda]

That's your problem. You're far too easily impressed by cranks ...

RACK! the IRIE reset- imo

[SunCoastSooner]

SCS,
I admire your desire to learn Hebrew to better understand the OT/Torah, but I would not recommend going to a "Messianic Temple", somehow I got on a mailing list for one in San Raphael, Ca and some of the shit the put out is crazy. I have nothing against people who wish to observe a religion, but you can't mix Judaism & Christianity anymore than you could combine Christianity to Muslim or Buhddism (Christers for Mohammed? or Buhdda) If there is a college nearby that offers Hebrew you'll be better off. If not, try a Reform Temple, they're most tolerant of you Goyum :D.


BTW, to the best of my limited knowledge, there isn't actually any reference to a "Messiah", but to a "Moschiach" (sp) or anointed one. I used to have some sites that saved that reviewed these translation issues, but I lost them somewhere along the line. I'll see if I can dig them up.

Messiah is a transliterization (as mv pointed out to me after I called it a bastardized word) from Moschiach. Or as some forms of judaism claim there is a difference between a messiah and the Moschiach. The class the messianic temple offers is taught as a non religious course in the summer I have been assured.

no need to dig them up. The most thourough I have found is this Jews for Judaism.

[rozy]

It always interests me as a Jew as to how others view my religion/heritage/history.

How? With their hands on their pocket books......wrapped TIGHTLY. :D

[LTS TRN 2]

Well, Whistler, (good to see you, btw), we certainly can't know anything about the real timeline of the "Old Testament," and similarly we know nothing of any actual characters mentioned. Nothing, that is, constituting archeological evidence has ever substantiated ANY of the folks like Moses, David, Solomon. The Maccabees were real enough. And so too now we have a real thing. A real fact we can annoit with oil and dance around: Ariel Sharon's son has just been marched into a prison cell. G'night :wink:

[velocet]

It always interests me as a Jew as to how others view my religion/heritage/history.

Really?


The short version: humanity owes a debt of gratitude to that Tradition because from it we landed up with leading contributors to most every branch of intellectual endeavor.




velocet

[SunCoastSooner]

Well, Whistler, (good to see you, btw), we certainly can't know anything about the real timeline of the "Old Testament," and similarly we know nothing of any actual characters mentioned. Nothing, that is, constituting archeological evidence has ever substantiated ANY of the folks like Moses, David, Solomon. The Maccabees were real enough. And so too now we have a real thing. A real fact we can annoit with oil and dance around: Ariel Sharon's son has just been marched into a prison cell. G'night :wink:

Actually there is some evidence for David and Solomon but not all of it will Christians or Jews for that matter care for much.

That's jumping way ahead of what I have laid the ground work to discuss as yet though so I'll leave it at that.