Joseph

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SunCoastSooner
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Joseph

Post by SunCoastSooner »

Since mvscal has already introduced the Hyksos (Hyksos came from the Egyptian term “hikau-khoswet” meaning Desert Princes or Shepherd Kings depending on the person translating it) I figure I’d just jump right in this.

As both I and mvscal pointed out in the Abraham thread The Hyksos came into Egypt gradually and slowly became influential in Egypt during a decline of Egyptian society. For Egypt it had been a slow but great decline. Government had weakened and socially their society was breaking down. Foreigners from across the desert and from the Canaan consistently raided smaller Egyptian settlements across their controlled territory and settled looking for water during a time of extreme drought throughout the region; the relaxed open lifestyles of the typically tolerant Egyptian gave way to mistrust and a tendency to rely upon themselves for protection from raiding parties, committed by foreigners, rather than the Egyptian rulers and their military. One of these groups the Hyksos slowly began to settle amongst them along with various other Semitic groups, among which were the Apiru (also called Habiru). The Hyksos were wiser than their Semite brethren though and instead of segregating themselves from Egyptian society as most of the Semites they embraced it almost entirely (with the exception of the concept of Ma’at which would be best described by me as the positive form of an Egyptian Taoism or Buddhism and belief in a sort of Karma/Ying and Yang for lack of a better description its polar opposite was Isfat the negative). The Hyksos dedicated temples to the Egyptian’s Pantheon of Gods, especially Set (Seth) who bore striking similarities to Baal and was also represented as Crocodile which was a beast of significant worship in their own society as well. The Hyksos also conspired with the Priests of Set who had grown to resent their marginalization by the Pharaohs and Priests of Amen-Ra.

When the Hyksos came down, from the areas now Israel and Syria, and began to influence Egypt they were not the only Semitics doing so. Many groups of Semites did so as well. What set the Hyksos apart was their advancement beyond that of their Semitic brethren in the arts, military tactics, military weaponry, and architecture. When people think of Chariots today they think of Egyptians but the Egyptians learned of this advanced machine of warfare from the Hyksos who used to their advantage well before the Egyptians ever knew of the concept.

It also wasn’t a completely peaceful seizure of power either. In the end the Hyksos did take over in what amounts to a military coup. They imprisoned the Pharohinic Royalty at Thebes on what we call today as House arrest. They knew better than to be so bold that to kill these peoples Living God and understood they were much more valuable to them alive and under their thumb.


The Hyksos began to take Egyptian throne names, King Apepi I took the throne name A-user-re (meaning Fashioned of Re) and the title “King of Upper and Lower Egypt – Son of Re” and the Egyptians, especially Seqenere Tao II the true “Son of Re – The Horus” to the Egyptian people this must have been as though they were being spit upon. The Egyptian people began to call him by another name, Apophis, the evil serpent God of the Egyptians. Epithets to the effect of “he of evil appearance” and “he of evil character” were commonly used to describe both Apepi and the Serpent God Apophis. Apepi I must have truly resented this and blamed Seqenere Tao II for not endorsing his rightful claim to being the incarnation of Horus as the ruler Egypt from his perspective at least. His family had been kind enough to not put, the obviously inferior Egyptian rulers, under the sword and yet they had the audacity to deny him his rightful place amongst the Morning Star. In Avaris (one of the last holdouts not under the thumb of the Hyksos but not really being in any contact with the Pharaoh) had a book of liturgies describing itself as the The Book of Overthrowing Apophis in which it gave words, phrases, and acts (such as wax replicas of Apophis to be melted or shaved with a knife) to ward away the evil Hyksos.

This leads me to Joseph. I am of the personal opinion that at the end of this time period (which would have been under Apepi I) is the most likely timing for his time spent as a Vizer or Governor of Egypt. The Hyksos set many fellow Semites not of their particular tribe into places of power throughout the land of Egypt, it was common practice. They knew that their cause was best served by keeping the fellow Semites as happy as they were or they might face the same destiny as the Egyptians had with the slow degradation of power by tribal insurgencies. Joseph would have been a prime candidate for one of these positions. His father, uncle, grandfather, and great grandfather were all tribal/clan leaders and most likely based upon their descriptions in the bible with connections to some of the very few settlements in the Canaan’s hierarchy including Jerusalem ruled by the Jebusites. With such connections and such power a younger son would be exactly what they were looking for. Joseph with his advanced level of intelligence would probably have quickly moved up in status amongst the Hyksos ruler and eventually obtain a governorship or Vizer position.

I find it unlikely that Joseph was bought as a slave by Egyptians as slavery in Egypt, at the time, does not fit our traditional concept of slavery in the fact that their slaves were not really bought and sold from each other but were more like willing contractors who gave up their freedom for a better life, much like and indentured servant in early American Colonial history only just not for set amount of time it was until death. Joseph likely was sent down by his family willingly and the idea of his slavery a rationalization by the later scribes trying to rationalize Joseph for working and living with the people who would eventually enslave he and his brother’s descendants. There are other tell tale signs of this as well within the biblical account; references to camels as beast of burden and coins is a historical impossibility at this point in the human history of Egypt. If the description of a Horse drawn chariot within the bible is accurate (which it very well possibly might not be as I have shown that the descriptions of camels and coins to be an impossibility) it would squarely place Joseph’s time in Egypt during or after the Hyksos reign of Egypt. Being dated just about any closer in time would really throw a damper on the accepted historical stories of the biblical account in many fashions. His family likely followed him down to Egypt later, as many other Semites were doing, during a great drought. Their son was a high ranking member of the Hyksos Royal Court and knew that he would receive them and offer shelter.

Joseph coming in near the end would also explain the enigma of a passage in the OT that stated that a Pharaoh that knew not of Joseph coming to power. Genesis 8-9 states ”In the mean time there arose a new King over Egypt, that knew not Joseph. And said to his people: Behold, the people of the children of Israel are numerous and stronger than we.”

Apepi I and S. Tao II (sorry spelling that name over and over is getting tiresome and difficult :D ) differences came to a head when Apepi went directly to the Priesthood of Re with threats of death if they did not endorse him as the rightful and true God Horus and the Morning Star of Egypt. To this the Priesthood of Re scoffed at and basically told him that though he may rule Egypt in a physical sense he was neither the true Pharaoh nor the Horus. This outright defiance enraged Apepi I and though no one is sure if it was under his orders or not but shortly after this incident S. Tao II and the vast majority of his high priests were murdered at Thebes. The murder of S. Tao II was particularly gruesome as noted by Dr. Ian Wilson of Oxford University in detail:
Ian Wilson wrote:”When in July of 1881, Emil Brugsch discovered the mummy of Pharaoh Ramesses II, in the same casche was another royal corpse, some 300 years older than that of Rameses, and distinguished by its particularly putrid smell. According to the label this was the body of Seqenenre Tao II, one of the native Egyptian rulers forced to live far to the south in Thebes during the Hyksos period, and as was obvious even to the untutored eye, Seqenere had met a violent end. The middle of his forehead had been smashed in. Another blow had fractured his right eye socket, his right cheek bone, and his nose, A third had been delivered behind his left ear, shattering the mastoid bone and ending in the first vertebrae of the neck. Although in life he had clearly been a tall and handsome young man with black curly hair, the set expression on Seqenenre’s face showed that he had died in agony. After death he appears to have fared little better, as his body seems to have been left for some while before mummification; hence the putrid smell and signs of early decomposition
Egyptian records are silent on how on how Seqenerne met his end, but almost certainly it was at the hands of the Hyksos/Canaanites.”
(if any of you Christers have a problem with Ian Wilson you can kiss my red injun ass :P and then google his name)

Peter Clayton goes even further in his description:
Peter Clayton wrote:The terrible wounds on Seqenere’s skull were caused by at least two people attacking him with a dagger, an axe, a spear, and possibly a mace.
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An interesting statement attributed to the Patriarch Jacob on his death bed in Egypt, that the Catholic Church has claimed as a prophecy of the messiah being killed by Jews, may (and this is a very large leap that I do not necessarily subscribe to but am open to the possibility) in the Old Testament which has no apparent meaning or context to anything previously stated in the bible:
Genesis 49:6
Jacob/Israel wrote:"O my soul, come not thou into their secret; unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united: for in their anger they slew a man, and their self will they dig down a wall”
He we have reference to a killing that was important enough to mention, yet not explain. The statement was directed at Levi and Simeon (sons of the blind woman Leah whom he despised already according to the bible). These tribes were cursed because they killed a man but is it possible that that unnamed victim be S. Tao II? I find it doubtful but intriguing.

I have another theory about Joseph I would like to present later but this is the one I personally subscribe to. If you differ, and I am sure you many of you will do you r thing… maybe you will change my opinion, it has been known to happen before.

At this point Kamose, S. Tao II, younger brother assumed the role of the Horus and Pharaoh and proceeded to start the uprising of Egypt against their Hyksos oppressors. Those that were not driven north were captured and enslaved. Amongst those were many of the tribes of Israel.

Kamose upon taking the throne promptly gave the Hyksos the finger in his own way by taking the throne name “Wadj-kheper-re” or in other words “Flourishing is the Manifestation of Re”. The New Kingdom of Egypt was soon to begin with the populace reinvigorated.
BSmack wrote:I can certainly infer from that blurb alone that you are self righteous, bible believing, likely a Baptist or Presbyterian...
Miryam wrote:but other than that, it's cool, man. you're a christer.
LTS TRN 2 wrote:Okay, Sunny, yer cards are on table as a flat-out Christer.
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Post by SunCoastSooner »

I am utterly shocked that no one has anything to bitch about in a post this long and this controversal.
BSmack wrote:I can certainly infer from that blurb alone that you are self righteous, bible believing, likely a Baptist or Presbyterian...
Miryam wrote:but other than that, it's cool, man. you're a christer.
LTS TRN 2 wrote:Okay, Sunny, yer cards are on table as a flat-out Christer.
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Post by Diogenes »

It was so long and contreversial it took a couple hours to read.

Genesis 34 covers the bit about Simeon and Levi.
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Post by SunCoastSooner »

Diogenes wrote:It was so long and contreversial it took a couple hours to read.

Genesis 34 covers the bit about Simeon and Levi.
I thought so as well for a good time because that is what I was taught while an adolescent in Methodist church. But I have been told otherwise since. As you said the post is pretty long and I didn't think that going into too much detail concerning that passage was too crucial to the case I was trying to state. The way it was put to me was this. 1) In Genesis 34 the problem was not a moral one but a practical one for their safety and Genisis 49 puts forth both a moral dilema as well as a practical one. 2) In Genesis 34 the secret was discovered by Jacob's son's but in Genesis 49 Jacob is chastising his son's for not gaining the secret they sought. 3) and finally Jacob is chastising them for killing a single individual and not multiple persons as in Genesis 34. That is the way it was explained to me atleast. Rereading the passages I can see that argument has validity. I believe that both arguments have a good case.
BSmack wrote:I can certainly infer from that blurb alone that you are self righteous, bible believing, likely a Baptist or Presbyterian...
Miryam wrote:but other than that, it's cool, man. you're a christer.
LTS TRN 2 wrote:Okay, Sunny, yer cards are on table as a flat-out Christer.
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Post by Diogenes »

NIV...

5 "Simeon and Levi are brothers—
their swords [a] are weapons of violence.

6 Let me not enter their council,
let me not join their assembly,
for they have killed men in their anger
and hamstrung oxen as they pleased.

7 Cursed be their anger, so fierce,
and their fury, so cruel!
I will scatter them in Jacob
and disperse them in Israel.


Footnotes:
Genesis 49:5 The meaning of the Hebrew for this word is uncertain.
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Post by SunCoastSooner »

Diogenes wrote:NIV...

5 "Simeon and Levi are brothers—
their swords [a] are weapons of violence.

6 Let me not enter their council,
let me not join their assembly,
for they have killed men in their anger
and hamstrung oxen as they pleased.

7 Cursed be their anger, so fierce,
and their fury, so cruel!
I will scatter them in Jacob
and disperse them in Israel.


Footnotes:
Genesis 49:5 The meaning of the Hebrew for this word is uncertain.
I can accept that. Seems more than reasonable. Still that was very small snippet of the post and more of a question within the post :D.
BSmack wrote:I can certainly infer from that blurb alone that you are self righteous, bible believing, likely a Baptist or Presbyterian...
Miryam wrote:but other than that, it's cool, man. you're a christer.
LTS TRN 2 wrote:Okay, Sunny, yer cards are on table as a flat-out Christer.
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Post by Diogenes »

It's wednesday. I'll see where you're going with this (again) and not mvscal you for three pages before you get there. we'll see what comes up this weekend.

If you haven't noticed, I'm patient. I like giving people as much rope as they think they need...
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Post by SunCoastSooner »

Diogenes wrote:It's wednesday. I'll see where you're going with this (again) and not mvscal you for three pages before you get there. we'll see what comes up this weekend.

If you haven't noticed, I'm patient. I like giving people as much rope as they think they need...
I was pretty much leading into this. I don't think I am ready for the next epic yet which will most likely be Moses and eventually David. Both should be rather interesting. David is very lets say controversal character in the Bible if you read both sides of the story, especially his situation with Saul and the Ten tribes other than Benjamin and Judah.

Kind of figured this would stir as much debate as I could handle for the next couple of days. :D
BSmack wrote:I can certainly infer from that blurb alone that you are self righteous, bible believing, likely a Baptist or Presbyterian...
Miryam wrote:but other than that, it's cool, man. you're a christer.
LTS TRN 2 wrote:Okay, Sunny, yer cards are on table as a flat-out Christer.
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Post by Diogenes »

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Post by Diogenes »

I find it unlikely that Joseph was bought as a slave by Egyptians as slavery in Egypt, at the time, does not fit our traditional concept of slavery in the fact that their slaves were not really bought and sold from each other but were more like willing contractors who gave up their freedom for a better life, much like and indentured servant in early American Colonial history only just not for set amount of time it was until death.
A bit of revionist history here. There was the eqivalent of indentured servitude in Aincient Egypt, but there was also commerce in slaves and inheritance of slaves.

I wasn't going to get into this until later because I don't have any decent sources onhand, but if you really disagree, I'll find some.

The thing about chariots is covered in the above link, BTW.
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Post by SunCoastSooner »

Yeah I do have some problems with the link you provided Dio. There are some things that I agree with but the things I agree with don't really change anything. Let me explain.

1) One of the lynchpins of their argument is based on a tennent of faith. The fact that Patriarchs lived for hundreds of years but I don't buy into that faith and I'm sorry there isn't any argument that you can put forward that is going to convincing me that there were people living for hundreds of years on end. That is a tennent of faith and one I just don't buy into.

2) It seems as though they are trying to debunk another biblical story, the Exodus, and its time period when I am almost certain that somewhere else on the site they have a an argument backing up the story of Exodus. They can't have it both ways just to be argumentative with non Judeao-Christians.

They are correct about the lack of records before the New Kingdom but I don't really see how this reinforces their theory without providing any alternative.

From here they lead right back into my first point.

3) Their statement about inner city fighting amongst the Canaan is accurate to a certain degree. Mainly there weren't many settlements in the Canaan at the time the vast majority of people were nomadic tent dwellers. Settlements were few and far between. Yes they did fight amongst themselves, as any group of the time did. The Greek City states fought amongst themselves frequently, The Romans, Etruscans, and Samnites fought amongst each other as well but at the same time they often alligned with each other against outside forces. The Canaanite/Semetics are no difference. They had problems internally but when it came to external forces they were typically united. The French and English were at war for virtually hundreds of year almost on constant basis but this did not stop their heirarchy (in any of my examples for that matter) from intermarrying and aligning against common foes. The Egyptians would definatly qualify as a common foe. We know for a fact an undeniable fact that the Hyksos were in the least aligned with the Kush and Midiates (sp?) we also know that the Apiru/Haibru (which some scholars believe are the precursors to the Hebrew) came down into Egypt with them but never obtained the social status, for the most part that the Hyksos did. The Hyksos also warred with the Kush at many times as well but that did not change their alliance against Egypt.

4) They try to use Potipher as being a native Egyptian. It doesn't say in the bible he was a native it just said he was Egyptian. The Hyksos considered themselves Egyptian they wanted to be the Egyptians basically. Potipher also doesn't seem similar to any Egyptian name I have run across in my reading on the subject. It does sound rather Canaanite/Semetic. It could be a transliterization though, I suppose. Also the story of him having to shave and clean for an Egyptian would have been a typical and common practice for the time that the bible was being transcribed in Babylon and a custom the Israelis would have been familiar with. It could be yet another rationalization as the coinage and the camels were.

5) Yes the Hyksos revered Set more than Ra as I pointed out in my case but at the same time they also wanted to be recognized as the Horus and the only way to do that would have been through the cult of Ra. Marrying off some of their officials, especially high ranking ones, would have been a very good way to try and ingratiate themselves into the cults leaders.

6) Thier argument about Chariots is two small paragraphs and severly lacking to say the least. Egyptians did not have a clue about Chariots before the Hyksos and sighting the fact that they found the remains of a single horse in Buhen and leaping to the conclusion that it makes it obvious that the remains of a horse clearly shows the Egyptians had chariots well before is really, really, really weak to put it mildly.

7) The fact that Joseph was given Egyptian titles in no way debunks the Hyksos. The Hyksos themselves attempted to take on Egyptian titles throughout their reign. That was part of an organized attempt by them to integrate within the Egyptian society. The fact that they would do the same for their other officials in now way would be shocking. I showed how Apepi I took the Throne name "Fashioned of Re" does this mean that he was no longer Hyksos and miraculously sudedenly a real Egyptian? Ofcourse not and it would be fooloish for me or anyone else to imply such.

Most of the rest is speculation just as in my post and takes many a leap of faith. Faith is all ya got anyways in the end.

I mentioned that I was going to present another theory about Joseph that was very plausible in the first post but seeing as though you just did it for me Dio I guess I don't have to take the time. :D :P
Last edited by SunCoastSooner on Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
BSmack wrote:I can certainly infer from that blurb alone that you are self righteous, bible believing, likely a Baptist or Presbyterian...
Miryam wrote:but other than that, it's cool, man. you're a christer.
LTS TRN 2 wrote:Okay, Sunny, yer cards are on table as a flat-out Christer.
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Post by SunCoastSooner »

Diogenes wrote:
I find it unlikely that Joseph was bought as a slave by Egyptians as slavery in Egypt, at the time, does not fit our traditional concept of slavery in the fact that their slaves were not really bought and sold from each other but were more like willing contractors who gave up their freedom for a better life, much like and indentured servant in early American Colonial history only just not for set amount of time it was until death.
A bit of revionist history here. There was the eqivalent of indentured servitude in Aincient Egypt, but there was also commerce in slaves and inheritance of slaves.

I wasn't going to get into this until later because I don't have any decent sources onhand, but if you really disagree, I'll find some.

The thing about chariots is covered in the above link, BTW.
I believe that the "ownership" of slaves was a product of the new Kingdom but I may be wrong. Now with indentured servitude when the master dies their heir did inherit the servant as well.
BSmack wrote:I can certainly infer from that blurb alone that you are self righteous, bible believing, likely a Baptist or Presbyterian...
Miryam wrote:but other than that, it's cool, man. you're a christer.
LTS TRN 2 wrote:Okay, Sunny, yer cards are on table as a flat-out Christer.
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Post by SunCoastSooner »

Look at it this way Dio we both agree Joseph existed our differences are in the details. :D

Think of the glass as half full instead of empty. ;)

We just have a difference in opinon of a couple centuries which in the bigger scheme of thngs isn't too horrible of a difference. I think that many Christians (not saying you specifically but many) argue over some pretty petty things with people who in essence agree with them in the bigger picture just because they feel the need to disagree with non-christians.

Either way both of our opinions are just that, opinions and speculations. A good case can be made for both time periods. Both cases have flaws as we have both pointed out as well.

As I said before I had planned to present almost verbatim what you did only I was going to type it myself as I did my first post and offer a bit more detail and even occasionally present a definable person or contemporary as your link really didn't other than Pharaohs. It caught the jest of what I was going to present and for that I thank you because my first post took me a couple of hours and the use of Microsoft Word to complete. :D

Looks like I can start planning the Moses thread now. Now there I am sure we will have it out on as it marks the emmergence of YWHW instead of El.
BSmack wrote:I can certainly infer from that blurb alone that you are self righteous, bible believing, likely a Baptist or Presbyterian...
Miryam wrote:but other than that, it's cool, man. you're a christer.
LTS TRN 2 wrote:Okay, Sunny, yer cards are on table as a flat-out Christer.
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Post by Diogenes »

1) One of the lynchpins of their argument is based on a tennent of faith. The fact that Patriarchs lived for hundreds of years but I don't buy into that faith and I'm sorry there isn't any argument that you can put forward that is going to convincing me that there were people living for hundreds of years on end. That is a tennent of faith and one I just don't buy into.
So do you see the irony here?

You reject their argument based on a tenet of your faith (that the Biblical account of the ages of the Patriarchs is inaccurte), admit that no argument no matter how compelling can disuade you from this preconcieved assumption...

And imply they are biased.

Epic.
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Post by SunCoastSooner »

Diogenes wrote:
1) One of the lynchpins of their argument is based on a tennent of faith. The fact that Patriarchs lived for hundreds of years but I don't buy into that faith and I'm sorry there isn't any argument that you can put forward that is going to convincing me that there were people living for hundreds of years on end. That is a tennent of faith and one I just don't buy into.
So do you see the irony here?

You reject their argument based on a tenet of your faith (that the Biblical account of the ages of the Patriarchs is inaccurte), admit that no argument no matter how compelling can disuade you from this preconcieved assumption...

And imply they are biased.

Epic.
Dude Dio your horse is pretty high up there. I don't know if you can hear from me from down here but read my posts. Atleast I have the personal integrity to admit both arguments have a case. That is more than can be said for you at this point. Beliving that people don't live for hundreds of years, to most reasonable people, would be acceptable.
BSmack wrote:I can certainly infer from that blurb alone that you are self righteous, bible believing, likely a Baptist or Presbyterian...
Miryam wrote:but other than that, it's cool, man. you're a christer.
LTS TRN 2 wrote:Okay, Sunny, yer cards are on table as a flat-out Christer.
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Post by Diogenes »

SunCoastSooner wrote:
Diogenes wrote:
1) One of the lynchpins of their argument is based on a tennent of faith. The fact that Patriarchs lived for hundreds of years but I don't buy into that faith and I'm sorry there isn't any argument that you can put forward that is going to convincing me that there were people living for hundreds of years on end. That is a tennent of faith and one I just don't buy into.
So do you see the irony here?

You reject their argument based on a tenet of your faith (that the Biblical account of the ages of the Patriarchs is inaccurte), admit that no argument no matter how compelling can disuade you from this preconcieved assumption...

And imply they are biased.

Epic.
Dude Dio your horse is pretty high up there. I don't know if you can hear from me from down here but read my posts. Atleast I have the personal integrity to admit both arguments have a case. That is more than can be said for you at this point. Beliving that people don't live for hundreds of years, to most reasonable people, would be acceptable.
I actually have no problem with teh Hyksos timeline. Mearly pointing out reasons why the other is reasonable as well. And all I was trying to point out in the prior post is that when you use your own preconceptions (no matter how common they may be) to dismiss out of hand the opposing POV becuse you assume they are acting on preconcieved notions (personally I have no problem with the biblical timeline taken literaly, or taken symbolicly, and I don't believe either to be an essential of the faith) you are engaging in a bit of a logical fallacy.

Materialism and uniformitarianism are no less matters of faith than any religious doctrine.

But that is a subject for another time, another thread.
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Post by SunCoastSooner »

Diogenes wrote:
SunCoastSooner wrote:
Diogenes wrote: So do you see the irony here?

You reject their argument based on a tenet of your faith (that the Biblical account of the ages of the Patriarchs is inaccurte), admit that no argument no matter how compelling can disuade you from this preconcieved assumption...

And imply they are biased.

Epic.
Dude Dio your horse is pretty high up there. I don't know if you can hear from me from down here but read my posts. Atleast I have the personal integrity to admit both arguments have a case. That is more than can be said for you at this point. Beliving that people don't live for hundreds of years, to most reasonable people, would be acceptable.
I actually have no problem with teh Hyksos timeline. Mearly pointing out reasons why the other is reasonable as well. And all I was trying to point out in the prior post is that when you use your own preconceptions (no matter how common they may be) to dismiss out of hand the opposing POV becuse you assume they are acting on preconcieved notions (personally I have no problem with the biblical timeline taken literaly, or taken symbolicly, and I don't believe either to be an essential of the faith) you are engaging in a bit of a logical fallacy.

Materialism and uniformitarianism are no less matters of faith than any religious doctrine.

But that is a subject for another time, another thread.
Point taken. I think either time line is plausible. Personal opinion is what drives a belief. My personal opinion is that I find it unrealistic to believe that people really lived that long. I don't hold that aginst those who do though. Like I said I think either is plausible I just simply, shall we say lean, towards the Hyksos time line, I just find it more plausible.
BSmack wrote:I can certainly infer from that blurb alone that you are self righteous, bible believing, likely a Baptist or Presbyterian...
Miryam wrote:but other than that, it's cool, man. you're a christer.
LTS TRN 2 wrote:Okay, Sunny, yer cards are on table as a flat-out Christer.
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