To those who were sure that Gracie would beat Hughes

Rack Fu · Post by **Rack Fu** » Sun May 28, 2006 4:53 pm

Hate to say I told you so but...

I told you so.

I haven't seen someone get so thoroughly dominated in years.

Greetings from my North Carolina vacation.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Sun May 28, 2006 6:51 pm

Define "thought."

My heart told me one thing, my brain another.

Brain wins...again.

But, I was suprised at how one-sided it was. Regardless what Royce says about his regimen, it obviously isn't true. But, put Royce on his old-time program, and get him back to being a "full-timer," and that's a whole different fight....not saying Royce would win under those circumstances, but it wouldn't be the same highlight reaal last night was...a fit, well-trained Royce just has way too much defense for anyone to roll him like that.

For a man his size, Hughs is a freak of nature. No 175# man has any business being that powerful.

I was suprised to see Royvce go without the gi. Seen him do it in a couple a Brazilian events, but I believe rules dictated it in those. He's far from the best fighter in the world -- either in his prime, or now -- but he's certainly one of the best at using the gi. One of my old grappling partners and I watched last night, and we were suprised at how many guys wore the baggy shorts. I think we said something like "haven't these guys ever raken any judo or traditional BJJ?" Way easier to pass gaurd when a dude's wearing baggy shorts/pants. And as Royce has mentioned before, in addition to other benefits, he also prefers going with the gi because he can use it to dry off his opponent, making it easier to keep a hold of him. Casual fans don't realize what a great weapon the gi can be. Way easier for a smaller/weaker man to lock a bigger guy up with a gi. And it gives many more options for chokes. I prefer watching gi events, but it's pretty much relegated to jui jitsu/judo/sambo events anymore.

But even in a very lopsided defeat, Royce was a major fucking badass. Never seen a guy shake off a fully-locked armbar like that...ever...and believe it or not(you guys won't, save your breath), I've dished out my fair share of armbars. Used to train with a guy with double-jointed elbows, and he couldn't roll out of something that deep. That was truly freakish.

OK -- enough grappling talk. Any more, and I'll catch "the bug" again, and then the exploded back/knees are imminent.

Props the "Middle-Aged-Royce," though -- he finally agreed to a fight with an equal or superior oppnent, one he didn't know he could beat beforehand...possibly a career first for him.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Sun May 28, 2006 7:07 pm

Seeing as I'll be 39 in a coupla weeks, I was reallyreallyreallyreally rooting for Royce....but I knew that he would fall to a diety of the sport who is in his prime.

And RACK Everlast for his pre-fight comments "I gotta go with Royce -- if it wasn't for Royce, nobody around here would even have any ground."

Not quite true, but close.

I might have to watch Glamrock die in the ring next time out.

Densedale · Post by **Densedale** » Sun May 28, 2006 7:40 pm

Please allow me to clarify; armbars AND helicopter kicks are my specialty. I've been known to take out 6 Navy Seals at a time with my jiu-jitsu skills. I remember this one time, I was in the VIP section of a very popular celebrity hangout and Russell Crowe walks in with Tito Ortiz and they both start lipping off. After I took both of them and their eight bodyguards down, with ease mind you, I hopped on stage and played with the band. Then, and I know you guys aren't going to believe this shit, but I swear it's true, but these 2 porn stars walked right on the stage and started sucking me off right as I am in the middle of an epic riff that Hendrix taught me! After they coaxed my man yogurt from my 12 inch cock, I then exited the stage at the end of the tune to record execs and porn producers wanting me to sign with them. I don't know how I am going to pull it all off with my MMA training! I'm so good that I'll find a way though. Pardon me while I go split the atom.

Cicatrix · Post by **Cicatrix** » Sun May 28, 2006 7:56 pm

Densedale wrote:Please allow me to clarify; armbars AND helicopter kicks are my specialty. I've been known to take out 6 Navy Seals at a time with my jiu-jitsu skills. I remember this one time, I was in the VIP section of a very popular celebrity hangout and Russell Crowe walks in with Tito Ortiz and they both start lipping off. After I took both of them and their eight bodyguards down, with ease mind you, I hopped on stage and played with the band. Then, and I know you guys aren't going to believe this shit, but I swear it's true, but these 2 porn stars walked right on the stage and started sucking me off right as I am in the middle of an epic riff that Hendrix taught me! After they coaxed my man yogurt from my 12 inch cock, I then exited the stage at the end of the tune to record execs and porn producers wanting me to sign with them. I don't know how I am going to pull it all off with my MMA training! I'm so good that I'll find a way though. Pardon me while I go split the atom.

Ahhhh but did you catch any monstrous salmonids afterwards?

No?

You sir are an imposter.

Densedale · Post by **Densedale** » Sun May 28, 2006 8:03 pm

Cicatrix wrote: Ahhhh but did you catch any monstrous salmonids afterwards?

No?

You sir are an imposter.

You are god damn right I did! And I caught an airborne strand of gonorrhea from all the nasty unprotected sex I have been having, but I hit the lab and created a cure for that. I have patened that shit, and Pfizer just paid me $3.2 billion for said patent. I am so fucking wealthy. Girls want me. Guys want to be me. It is good to be Densedale.

Rack Fu · Post by **Rack Fu** » Sun May 28, 2006 8:06 pm

Dins,
State Athletic Commissions do not allow the use of a gi in any sanctioned event.

Uncle Fester · Post by **Uncle Fester** » Tue May 30, 2006 3:12 pm

I knew Hughes would own Gracie, but it was hard not to cheer for Royce anyway.

Suprisingly good card. How did Swick beat Riggs so easily?

Lister and Vera looked really tough, and Guillard just about killed that poor karate dude.

Rack Fu · Post by **Rack Fu** » Tue May 30, 2006 6:19 pm

I knew that Hughes was going to smash Royce to pieces but I'm really surprised at just how he did it.

It was quite obvious that Hughes went into this fight with the intention of submitting Royce to prove a point. I can't believe that I'm typing this but Hughes thoroughly out grappled Gracie. Obviously, strength proved a major advantage but Hughes' BJJ was looking real good.

Royce should've probably tapped from that kimura/armlock. Word on the street is that Royce tore his shoulder. Not sure whether I should give props to the guy for toughing that out or calling him a moron for not tapping and making things worse. I'm all for the warrior spirit but common sense needs to enter the equation at some point.

Then Hughes came close to sinking the rear naked choke (one of Gracie's bread & butter moves). I also think that Royce began to tap from the head strikes at just about the time that Big John stopped the fight (watch the replay as it looks like he got a tap or two in).

Royce needs to concentrate his efforts on coaching and teaching BJJ to up and comers. His fighting days are obviously over as he's too old and set in his ways to learn other facets of the MMA fight game.

Raydah James · Post by **Raydah James** » Tue May 30, 2006 6:28 pm

Rack Fu wrote: I can't believe that I'm typing this but Hughes thoroughly out grappled Gracie.

Which made that beatdown THAT much sweeter-he did it Gracies way.

Too bad he didnt break off one of his patented slams for fucks sake, though.

Dinsdale wrote:My heart told me one thing,

Must be the fact that im a youngin, but FUCK Royce. I've always hated that Brazilian cunt.

Been a Big Hughes fan for quite awhile, and love how humble he is when he fights. Dude didnt even raise his fucking arm in triumph after destroying Gracie.

RACK him for repping the USA properlike.

Dinsdale wrote: But, put Royce on his old-time program, and get him back to being a "full-timer," and that's a whole different fight....

Tip your dealer extra next time-because that motherfucker hooked you up with some great shit.

Easily the dumbest fucking thing i've read on these boards-by far.

Royce fucked up by thinking he could compete in todays UFC format-period. Even in his "Legendary" days (although Kazushi Sakuraba is much more of a "legend" than Gracie will ever be for mowing that entire family down brutally) he would've gotten handled by Hughes.

not saying Royce would win under those circumstances, but it wouldn't be the same highlight reaal last night was...a fit, well-trained Royce just has way too much defense for anyone to roll him like that.

Bullshit.

If this fight was rewound and Gracie got the "chance" to train like he did in his prime, he would've still gotten pounded just as bad-if not worse-than he fucking did on Saturday.

For a man his size, Hughs is a freak of nature. No 175# man has any business being that powerful.

The only RACKable thing you've posted in this thread.

but he's certainly one of the best at using the gi.

No, he isnt. In fact, it was used against him almost laughably by Kazushi in thier fight, when he punished him and basically toyed with his ass before ending it in the sixth round. The gi is fucking retarded-and UFC did Gracie a huge favor by not allowing him to wear it-Matt probably would've snapped his neck by choking him with it.

Hey, one can only dream, right?

One of my old grappling partners and I watched last night, and we were suprised at how many guys wore the baggy shorts.

Thanks for showing your age, you old fuck.

Ever think that these guys go that route because they are just that fucking badass?

Cant argue the results Dins-and Hughes didnt have a problem getting his belt back from that spandex sporting douche St. pierre (although my cousin does wear pretty tight shorts down to his knees when he fights-RACK him) with his baggys.

Simply put, Royce gets no props and no respect for the way he went out. I couldnt be happier about it, too. No reason to come back, except his fucking ego.

Fuck him.

Rack Fu · Post by **Rack Fu** » Tue May 30, 2006 6:31 pm

Uncle Fester wrote:I knew Hughes would own Gracie, but it was hard not to cheer for Royce anyway.

Suprisingly good card. How did Swick beat Riggs so easily?

Lister and Vera looked really tough, and Guillard just about killed that poor karate dude.

I don't get Swick either but he's really put it on the last few guys that he has fought. Riggs is an experienced and good fighter. Swick pretty much owned him. I would like to see Swick have a rematch with Leben at this point. I don't think that Swick is any threat for the title but he's a legit top 5 MW in the UFC.

Vera has been real impressive. He really should be fighting at LHW but he's done great at HW. Assuerio Silva, though not as good as many of his Brazilian counterparts, is no joke and Vera whooped him. I can't see Vera hanging with Arlovski or Sylvia though.

I just wonder what Lister has beyond BJJ. He's a ground wizard but what happens if he gets in the octagon with someone who can hit like Chuck Liddell?

Rack Fu · Post by **Rack Fu** » Tue May 30, 2006 6:37 pm

Raydah James wrote:
Rack Fu wrote: I can't believe that I'm typing this but Hughes thoroughly out grappled Gracie.

Which made that beatdown THAT much sweeter-he did it Gracies way.

Too bad he didnt break off one of his patented slams for fucks sake, though.

Dinsdale wrote:My heart told me one thing,
Must be the fact that im a youngin, but FUCK Royce. I've always hated that Brazilian cunt.

Been a Big Hughes fan for quite awhile, and love how humble he is when he fights. Dude didnt even raise his fucking arm in triumph after destroying Gracie.

RACK him for repping the USA properlike.

Dinsdale wrote: But, put Royce on his old-time program, and get him back to being a "full-timer," and that's a whole different fight....
Tip your dealer extra next time-because that motherfucker hooked you up with some great shit.

Easily the dumbest fucking thing i've read on these boards-by far.

Royce fucked up by thinking he could compete in todays UFC format-period. Even in his "Legendary" days (although Kazushi Sakuraba is much more of a "legend" than Gracie will ever be for mowing that entire family down brutally) he would've gotten handled by Hughes.

not saying Royce would win under those circumstances, but it wouldn't be the same highlight reaal last night was...a fit, well-trained Royce just has way too much defense for anyone to roll him like that.
Bullshit.

If this fight was rewound and Gracie got the "chance" to train like he did in his prime, he would've still gotten pounded just as bad-if not worse-than he fucking did on Saturday.

For a man his size, Hughs is a freak of nature. No 175# man has any business being that powerful.

The only RACKable thing you've posted in this thread.

but he's certainly one of the best at using the gi.
No, he isnt. In fact, it was used against him almost laughably by Kazushi in thier fight, when he punished him and basically toyed with his ass before ending it in the sixth round. The gi is fucking retarded-and UFC did Gracie a huge favor by not allowing him to wear it-Matt probably would've snapped his neck by choking him with it.

Hey, one can only dream, right?

One of my old grappling partners and I watched last night, and we were suprised at how many guys wore the baggy shorts.
Thanks for showing your age, you old fuck.

Ever think that these guys go that route because they are just that fucking badass?

Cant argue the results Dins-and Hughes didnt have a problem getting his belt back from that spandex sporting douche St. pierre (although my cousin does wear pretty tight shorts down to his knees when he fights-RACK him) with his baggys.

Simply put, Royce gets no props and no respect for the way he went out. I couldnt be happier about it, too. No reason to come back, except his fucking ego.

Fuck him.

I can't say that I agree with all of your points but I laughed at just about every word you typed.

You get racked for that.

War Sakuraba while I'm at it.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Tue May 30, 2006 7:21 pm

Rack Fu wrote:I'm all for the warrior spirit but common sense needs to enter the equation at some point.

When you're THAT tough, and looking at the wrong end of 40, that whole "live to fight another day" mantra takes on less and less meaning.

Royce needs to concentrate his efforts on coaching and teaching BJJ to up and comers. His fighting days are obviously over as he's too old and set in his ways to learn other facets of the MMA fight game.

Sin,
Rickson :faggywinky:

But after 15 years or so of "getting up to speed" with the rest of the world's experience in the no-holds-barred game, RACK the American's contribution to the sport. When it was dominated by the Brazilians and Japanese until recent years, it was all about who had the best positional control on the ground, and it was all about who was the best submission grappler. And that was the game, up until the ealry/mid 90's...at which point, the rest of the world was introduced to inbred, corn-fed, American hay-bailing wrestling machines. And the age of Ground-and-Pound was born. And lo and behold, the dominant fighters are of this ilk, and predominately American...RACK-a-roo.

Is Swick the one who carried the other dude around on his back? That was an all-time classic. Dude walks to his corner, and asks his trainers "what do I do about this guy?" Priceless, and both fighters were having a good time with it. That dude was crazy-athletic.

WhatsMyName · Post by **WhatsMyName** » Wed May 31, 2006 4:32 am

I've never seen Gracie dominated so badly as when Kazushi Sakuraba threw him around the ring like a ragdoll.

Sakuraba MIGHT be the best ever.

Cicatrix · Post by **Cicatrix** » Wed May 31, 2006 1:08 pm

The "dark" matches on that card they showed after the main event were great. That flying knee from that tiny guy in blue trunks was superb.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed May 31, 2006 3:51 pm

WhatsMyName wrote:Sakuraba MIGHT be the best ever.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!!

Oh, and did I mention....BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S.: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sin,

P.P.S.: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed May 31, 2006 6:05 pm

Okay, isn't that dude a Gracie too?

I'm lost. Is Dins saying Sakusushi definitely isn't the best, and that this Rickson guy is? Or, did Sak beat Rickson and Dins is ragging on Rickson?

This shit is so important. Gotta know.

I also wanna know whether or not you serious fight fan guys think Bruce Lee would've gotten destroyed by these new guys, or was he simply unbeatable? See, the latter contention is what my co-worker's always telling me and I'm just thinking, nah, Lee was too small and all that flashy shit of his wouldn't mean jack in a cage against a guy like Hughes...

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Wed May 31, 2006 6:13 pm

Van wrote:I also wanna know whether or not you serious fight fan guys think Bruce Lee would've gotten destroyed by these new guys, or was he simply unbeatable? See, the latter contention is what my co-worker's always telling me and I'm just thinking, nah, Lee was too small and all that flashy shit of his wouldn't mean jack in a cage against a guy like Hughes...

Nice question. I'm intrigued to see what the experts on the board think about this one.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed May 31, 2006 6:21 pm

Follow up question: Are chops to the throat allowed in UFC? See, I'm sorta thinking the only way Lee would have a chance against these grappler guys would be to seriously hurt them, and to do so quickly, before they could get him to the ground.

To me, that would entail some sort of instantly incapacitating move that he could definitely execute such as a hand chop to the throat. I'm thinking those must be illegal though because he could literally kill a guy with those...

Uncle Fester · Post by **Uncle Fester** » Wed May 31, 2006 6:42 pm

Bruce Lee?
Rickson worship?
Sak is the bestest ever? (see Vanderlei Silva)

You fellers would get eaten alive on any MMA forum.

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=2

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed May 31, 2006 6:48 pm

Van wrote:I'm lost. Is Dins saying Sakusushi definitely isn't the best, and that this Rickson guy is?

Yup. Absolutely, no debate, not up for discussion, safer bet than death and taxes.

But, don't take my word for it...ask anybody here who is objective. It will be a great way for brain-dead tards to out themselves.

Ask Matt Hughes who the best fighter of the last century is. Ask any top professional on the planet who the best is.

Absolutely 100% of everybody with any clue what they're talking about will agree.

The only other person in contention for "greatest in the last century" is Rickson's uncle, Carlson Sr.

I haven't seen the world ranking in a while, but pretty much since the day they started doing the world ranking, it's a vote for #2.

Or, did Sak beat Rickson and Dins is ragging on Rickson?

See, there's the dealio -- Rickson has never lost to anybody. Ever. Rarely has anyone ever even come close. Last I heard, his professional record was around 450-0.

And I believe Rickson is now on the wrong side of 50(??...those guys aren't always really forthcoming with their actual age), and still gets out for a throwdown every once in a while. And even at his age, there is nobody on this planet, or any other planet, in any weight class(Rickson goes about 230, give or take) that has ANY busness stepping in the ring with him...nobody.

So, you tell me -- who is the best ever? There's legendary tales of behing-closed-doors matches where Rickson has tapped some of the top pros in the game...with his hands tied in his belt. And at 50ish, he can tale ANYBODY...with ease.

I hope I've made myself clear on the issue.

And Rickson does little-to-no cross training. He doesn't do "MMA." Straight-up BJJ guy(loves to play judo, sambo, and freestyle wrestling, too).

I also wanna know whether or not you serious fight fan guys think Bruce Lee would've gotten destroyed by these new guys, or was he simply unbeatable?

One of the all-time best discussion topics for armchair MMA debate. One of the best stand-up technicians to ever live, without question, despite limited professional exposure to back it up. But after Bruce mastered Wing Chung(after his dance hall days), he realised he was still easy fodder for a skilled grappler...because he was extremely intelligent. To fix this, he sought out Gene Labell, who he considered to be the world's foremost authority on grappling at the time (RACKing the Americans again). He sponged up everything that Judo Gene could teach him, and became an expert on the ground, as well. While training techniques have advanced, and the athletes have become much better, and the "age of information" has made it easier to scout out effective techniques...there's also no substitute for staright-up freakinsh talent and athleticism, which Bruce possessed in prodigous quantities.

In summary...I have no idea...but I'm thinking Bruce's talent was timeless.

In the end, Bruce should probably be best remembered for what he did outside of the ring -- he did by as much as anyone to bridge the cultural gap/ethnic roadblock between East and West. OK, that's probably not 100% accurate -- Bruce bridged the gap between the Chinese and the west. Anton Geesink removed any doubt the Japanese might have had whether Westerners were fit to learn the Eastern arts(Geesink is generally considered the greatest judo player to ever live...and I had the good fortune to train with one of his old students/teammates from the old days of the legendary Dutch National Judo Team...although Sensei Leidelmier first learned his judo from gaurds at the concentration camp the Japanese kept him in as a child in Dutch Indonesia...interesting charater).

Zyclone · Post by **Zyclone** » Wed May 31, 2006 6:49 pm

Sakuraba? Bwahahaha

All match summaries are from real bouts played in S!O!S!

Silva/Saku: The Final Showdown

One of the greatest mixed martial artist of all-time is Kazushi Sakuraba. Saku exploded onto the Japanese MMA scene with a series of impressive outings. His mastery of submissions netted him victories over such luminaries as top-flight grappler Carlos Newton and Ken Shamrock-protégé Vernon Tiger White. Early in his career, the greatest showcase of Saks skills came in his win over the then-dazzling Vitor Belfort, who he dealt such a devastating loss that the The Phenoms psyche has yet to fully recover. Sakuraba didnt enter into the world of MMA legend, however, until he faced Royler Gracie.

Known world over, the Gracie Family popularized there own brand of Jiu-Jitsu in Brazil (which would come to be known as Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu) and had not been defeated in a MMA fight for decades. That would change when Saku kicked a butt-scooting Royler around the ring for almost fifteen minutes, until entering into a ground contest with him in the waning moments of the time limit and securing a Kimura in less than two minutes that caused the referee to stop the fight. The martial arts world was astounded, and they would be even more so when Saku followed his victory up by rattling off wins over other Gracies: the legendary Royce, Renzo, perhaps the greatest active Gracie, and bad boy Ryan.

Sakus combination of speed and technique was so impressive that many picked him to win a hypothetical match-up with American champion Tito Ortiz, despite Ortizs weight being over twenty pounds to the North of Sakus. Before any such a fight could be made, however, Sakuraba was pitted against another a fighter with a significant weight advantage. This opponent was of Brazilian heritage, but he posed a much different challenge than that of a Gracie.

Wanderlei Silvas method of combat was surpassed in viciousness only by his ice-cold stare. While ranked in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Silvas focus was not on submitting his opponents. Instead, the hard-striking, soft-chinned Axe Murderer and his opponent would take turns rocking each other in wild brawls; usually, Silvas edge in mental toughness and hitting power would cause him to emerge the victor. More than success, his propensity for engaging in slugfests brought Silva immense fandom.

Still, Sakus abilities were thought to be such that even a great fighter like Wanderlei would eventually fall to his cunning. Thus, while Saku was the favorite when the two met up for the first time, most expected a pitched battle. The result was shocking.

Almost immediately entering into a punching shootout, Saku stunned Wanderlei early in the contest and tried to finish him quickly with follow-up punches. But the Brazilian rebounded and let his fury be known. What followed was a flurry of flying hands, knees, and feet that left Sakuraba demolished after just 90 seconds. Wanderlei had not just defeated the best fighter in the world; he had blown him away.

But many contended the first match result was a fluke, and so a rematch was scheduled. This time, much more of the action would be fought on the ground. But surprisingly, Saku did not fair much better; it was Silva who almost ended the fight with an arm bar. And eventually, it was a Silva slam that injured Sakus shoulder and led to the doctor stopping the fight in Silvas favor after the first round. It was with this second dominant performance that King Silva was born and people began to question if Sakus best days were behind him.

But Sakuraba argued with Japanese promoters for another shot at Silva. Despite his loses, Sakuraba was still enormously popular with Japanese fans, and so the promoters relented to his requests. The final chapter of the Saku/Silva trilogy would be much more of a cat-and-mouse game than the previous fights, with Silva slowly stalking Sakuraba around the ring while Sak looked for an opening. But Silva would find his opening first, and after a devastating combination to the head, Saku would drop, unconscious. With that emphatic knockout, it appeared that Silva and Sakuraba had locked horns for the last time.

But due to popular demand, S!O!S! sanctioned a fourth fight between the two, featuring a Sakuraba more in his prime. Would Wanderlei still dominate his smaller foe? Or would Saku recapture the magic that brought him so much success and finally overthrow King Silva?

Wanderlei Silva vs Kazushi Sakuraba (Japanese rules)

Not content to slip into the idleness that contributed to his loss in the last Silva/Sak encounter, Sakuraba opened up aggressively early. While a takedown attempt was blocked, he managed to surprise Wanderlei with a spinning side-kick to the midsection. More than hurting Silva, however, the blow seemed to warm him up, as Wanderlei followed by unleashing his own striking on Sakuraba, feeding the Japanese star a steady diet of punches, knees, and kicks. While Silva seemed to want to land a blow to end the fight, he was disciplined enough to not open himself up by forcing an attack. In the meantime, his striking was breaking down Saku, whose own attempts at offense were consistently met with failure. Sakuraba appeared to be in bad shape, but near the end of the first round, he managed to wrestle Silva to the ground with his signature single leg takedown, only to have Wanderlei stand back up immediately. The new fight seemed to be of the same cloth as the old

Round One Scoring: 10-8 Silva

At the start of round two, Silva let loose with another knee-buckling kick on Sakuraba. With almost nothing left in the tank, Saku had no more time to wait, causing him to have to force a takedown attempt. But a fresh Silva short-circuited his desperate dive by punting his head with a violent soccer kick. The blow sounded throughout the arena, and the gasp of the crowd was only partially drowned out by the ringing of the timekeepers bell. Sakuraba was unconsciouss; his challenge of Silva had been turned back yet again.

WINNER: Silva via KO (Kick) in Round 2

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed May 31, 2006 7:01 pm

Van wrote:Follow up question: Are chops to the throat allowed in UFC?

I don't believe there's a rule against it, but I haven't really been following that closely in recent years.

What I DO know is, it shouldn't really be an issue.

Before any student in any gym is ever taught one move, they first learn that the neck isn't the best body part to try and block a strike with...really.

Take a closer look at a UFC, or any other MMA event...or even a basic grappling cass, for that matter -- and you'll notice that every single person you see has their chin tucked down over their throat. While there may be 100 different styles of fighting in the ring, they all shaere this one common trait.

In basketvball, you don't play defense with your face. In fighting, you don't play defense with your neck. It's that simple. And your corotid arteries are more of a risk to saying "goodnight" than your adam's apple is.

Related -- I watched that UFC last weekend with one of my old grappling buds. Carlson Gracie Sr. handed this guy a belt, so it ain't like dude don't know what's up. Anyhoo, we both sat in amazement that not one, but two (the first two on the card) matches ended in a guillotine. My bud said it best -- "Damn. When I taught self-defense for women, we'd even cover the 'defense of guillotine' in the first few lessons. How any so-called 'professional' could go down to a guillotine is beyond me."

He's right. Dudes need to stop spending so much time jumping to the advanced stuff, that they forget the very basics.

Uncle Fester · Post by **Uncle Fester** » Wed May 31, 2006 7:32 pm

That wasn't a guillotine from Mike Swick; it was a Swickotine :)

As for Rickson, it's widely stated that he was the best of all the Gracies in BJJ, however, he never really fought in the modern era of MMA. His MMA record was 11-0 with a lot of victories over cans.

I think Rickson saw BJJ as a martial art and the ultimate form of self-defense, not as the be-all end-all of sport fighting, which is what we have now.

Ask anyone familiar with MMA who the best fighter is and you won't hear names like Rickson or Bruce Lee.

They'll simply say one word: "Fedor"

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/figh ... terID=1500

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed May 31, 2006 7:36 pm

Uncle Fester wrote: Ask anyone familiar with MMA Ask anyone familiar with MMA who the best fighter is and you won't hear names like Rickson

There isn't enough bandwidth on the entire world wide web to transmit a :rolleyes: of appropriate size.

Hmmmm....every single professional I've EVER met seems to disagree.

Why don't you go ask Randy Couture who he thinks is best?

He qualifies as "familiar with MMA," right?

Uncle Fester · Post by **Uncle Fester** » Wed May 31, 2006 7:55 pm

Is this the same Randy Couture who said in an interview that in the future, submissions would become obsolete? So where does that leave Rickson?

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed May 31, 2006 8:01 pm

Uncle Fester wrote:So where does that leave Rickson?

Same place he was before -- the best fighter of the last century(with the possible exception of his uncle).

Raydah James · Post by **Raydah James** » Wed May 31, 2006 8:13 pm

*yawn*

The tards have shown themselves.

The only thing that kept me reading was the whole bruce lee angle and how he would fare. Pretty interesting shit there, and its a damn shame we'll never know in our lifetime.

And Dins, heres some food for thought from his own fucking father.

"If you count all fights like everybody else does, including Rickson, who says he has 400 fights; if you count like that, I have a million."

Father or Son, Dins?

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed May 31, 2006 8:16 pm

Raydah James wrote:*And Dins, heres some food for thought from his own fucking father.

"If you count all fights like everybody else does, including Rickson, who says he has 400 fights; if you count like that, I have a million."

Father or Son, Dins?

Uhm...you didn't just quote the most arrogant prick in the history of the universe, who is over 90 years old, and try to make it a serious topic for debate, did you?

How many fights do you guys think a guy has in one night to win the Vale Tudo or Brazilian JuiJitsu/Rio Championships?

Ain't too hard to rack up 400 when you do 8 a night for a few decades.

Raydah James · Post by **Raydah James** » Wed May 31, 2006 8:26 pm

Dinsdale wrote:

Uhm...you didn't just quote the most arrogant prick in the history of the universe, who is over 90 years old, and try to make it a serious topic for debate, did you?

Damn right I did, motherfucker.

Personally, I would take Rickson due to the fact that IMO Helio's competition wasnt nearly as intelligent in certain realms (All around skeelz, ect.), or able to travel worldwide with ease when dude was in his prime.

How the fuck do we know how bad dude really was if he couldnt fight the best competition in the world.

Fuck that.

And fuck you-Matt Hughes would smash ALL these bitch ass faggots

:wink:

Uncle Fester · Post by **Uncle Fester** » Wed May 31, 2006 8:32 pm

Maybe Rickson counted all the times he punched the heavy bag as a "fight."

The only decent guy Rickson beat in MMA was Funaki, who was a Pancrase fighter with a bad knee, and it took him almost 13 minutes to choke him out.

He turned down fights with everyone else, including Sak, who went through the Gracies like poop through a goose.

Rickson was the best grappler of his day, but he wasn't facing guys who had the complete package of wrestling, submissions, and striking.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed May 31, 2006 8:41 pm

Fester -- not to be rude....

but you have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

Shut up.

The only fights that Rickson EVER turned down, were ones where they wanted to pay him shit, or where they tried to impose stupid rules to put him at a disadvantage.

Learn of what you speak before you open your yap. You've displayed some serious ignorance here so far...seriously. And you really fell for that oft-used-by-shit-fighters "Rickson turned down our fight..he's a pussy?"

That one has been around for quite a while now. They never mention that they offered him $4.39 if he won, and had to catch his own plane ticket.

Anyone who even attempts to denigrate Rickson's career is such an idiot, words can't describe it.

Zyclone · Post by **Zyclone** » Wed May 31, 2006 9:19 pm

Dins, get your mouth off Ricksons cock for just a minute.

If you think Rickson has a chance against Wandy or Shogun you need to sell me some of the shit your smoking.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed May 31, 2006 9:33 pm

Wait a sec here...

This Sak guy apparently got destroyed by Wanderlei Silva. Okay. Now, if this...

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/figh ... hterID=209

...is the same guy we're talking about here then this guy has five losses and a draw in his UFC career. That's just his UFC career.

Maybe we're talking about a different guy? Zy's article keeps mentioning a Vanderlei Silva, with a "V", not a "W', so maybe it's a different guy?

If it's the same guy though then there's no way this guy is among the best ever, not when Rickson is 11-0 in UFC and (according to Dins anyway) undefeated in his entire career, comprising hundreds of fights in all sorts of classes

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed May 31, 2006 9:42 pm

Van wrote:If it's the same guy though then there's no way this guy is among the best ever, not when Rickson is 11-0 in UFC and (according to Dins anyway) undefeated in his entire career, comprising hundreds of fights in all sorts of classes

Don't listen to the tards, Van.

Rickson has never entered the UFC. His brother did, and with many events, the Gracie clan leaves individual events to individual fighters, unless there's weight classes, then they'll bring a team. It is how they roll. The E#xtreme Fighting events of the mid 90's was a good example, shortly before the Carlson and Helio camps had a falling out (all Helio's doing-btw...arrogant prick). To the best of my knowledge, I don't believe Rickson has ever fought in the US. No-rules became popular pretty much after Rickson's star began to fade. It just wasn't that big in his day(in the USA), and he was already sitting on the top of the heap, and had nothing to prove. But, bottom line was the bottom line -- Rickson was getting huge money to show up at that point, and the American events paid dick in those days, relatively speaking(and the UFC wasn't above rigging fights in those days, whoring for the ratings).

And Rickson's ridiculous record is legit.

And it appears your own research has uncovered some of the bullshit that's been spewed in this thread.

At 50, Rickson is STILL untouchable...belleeee dat, brother.

Uncle Fester · Post by **Uncle Fester** » Wed May 31, 2006 9:49 pm

Van:

From Rickson's 11 MMA wins, the records of the guys he beat were as follows:

1-6-0 Zulu
1-6-0 Zulu
4-2-0 Nishi
1-3-0 Levicki
2-2-0 Smith
6-14-0 Yamamoto
1-2-0 Kimura
8-2-0 Nakai
2-6-2 Takada
2-6-2 Takada
38-11-1 Funaki (Pancrase wins)

Rickson never fought in the UFC:

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/figh ... hterID=292

Keep in mind that most of these guys were not the well-rounded fighters we have today.

Draw your own conclusions.

Btw, this writer has him ranked #2 on his list of "biggest disappointments":

2) Rickson Gracie

Rickson Gracie rarely grants interviews. (Lord knows I’ve tried.) Rickson Gracie hasn’t competed in six years. Rickson Gracie is nearing 50 years old, when even the most determined of athletes find themselves slow to get out of bed.

And yet he remains the most controversial figure in the sport for exactly those same reasons.

His record is a who’s-who of mediocre competition — clueless strikers, half-blind lightweights, lumbering professional wrestlers. Couple that with his inactivity and you’d figure he would be little more than a curiosity.

But because respected athletes herald him as the most skilled practitioner in the most defied style in the game — jiu-jitsu — his mythology continues to grow. Paulo Filho (Pictures), a highly capable Brazilian Top Team middleweight, returned from a training session with Gracie and professed his amazement. Countless others have mirrored that sentiment.

And so Rickson has become the greatest “What If?” story in martial arts history, surpassing even Bruce Lee for the simple reason that he had the opportunity to prove his worth, whereas Lee did not. To believe the stories of his technical prowess is to be disappointed that he chose to remain a question mark.

Even now, stories continue to circulate about Rickson’s return. I suspect the talk is fueled more by the intense curiosity of his fans than his actual plans. But regardless of what he does in the future, his disinterest in competition during the 1990s will cement him as one of the sport’s biggest absentee athletes.

by Jake Rossen
http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles.as ... &my_page=2

More: http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/show ... hp?t=12319

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed May 31, 2006 10:45 pm

Wow. Just wow. I'm not sure I've ever seen such unmitigated bullshit in my life'

Uncle Fester wrote:Van:

From Rickson's 11 MMA wins, the records of the guys he beat were as follows:

It's not news that when you're the Top Dog, you get the haters. I just can't believe the lies coming out of the haters mouths, is all.

Rickson has won many events with a field of 64. Go ahead and do that math, and then come back with the 11-0 claim.

And Zulu was considered by most in-the-know to be the top NHB fighter in the world when Rickson forst fought him...I'm sure based upon the strength of his one win.

Rickson Gracie hasn’t competed in six years.

2006 PANAMERICAN JIU-JITSU CHAMPIONSHIP

2006 Copa Pacifica de Jiu-JItsu

3rd AMERICAN NATIONAL JIU-JITSU CHAMPIONSHIP

U.S. OPEN IX BRAZILIAN JIU-JITSU TOURNAMENT

GRACIE UNITED JIU-JITSU TOURNAMENT 2004

2004 PAN AMERICAN JIU-JITSU CHAMPIONSHIPS

6th ANNUAL COPA PACIFICA DE JIU-JITSU

1st INLAND EMPIRE INTERNATIONAL BRAZILIAN JIU-JITSU CHAMPIONSHIP

2nd INLAND EMPIRE INTERNATIONAL BRAZILIAN JIU-JITSU CHAMPIONSHIP

1st SOUTHWEST BRAZILIAN JIU-JITSU TOURNAMENT

5th ANNUAL COPA PACIFICA DE JIU-JITSU

1st ANNUAL AMERICAN NATIONAL BRAZILIAN JIU-JITSU TOURNAMENT

2003 PAN AMERICAN JIU-JITSU CHAMPIONSHIP

1st ANNUAL SOUTHBAY TOURNAMENT IN TORRANCE

2nd AMERICAN NATIONAL JIU-JITSU CHAMPIONSHIP

OK, so he has competed in the USA, in a Juijistu touney.

And if you're trying to sort through the bullshit, Van, bear in mind -- Rickson was the World JuiJitsu Champion for twenty freaking years. He won what, at the time, was the biggest MMA tourney in the world, the Vale Tudo(probably still is the biggest event)...at age 38.

Oh, and on that subject -- He defeated Takada, who at the time was the Japanese Champion...obviously a title that was given to him after compliling that STAGGERING 2-6-2 record.

The bullshit is getting pretty deep in here.

And once again, the ONLY fights Rickson has EVER turned down, were ones with fucked rules and fucked paychecks. There was more than one example in Rickson's career of him agreeing to an event, having his legend used in the promotion, and stiffed him when it came time to pay up. Rickson don't do time limits, and he don't do shitty paychecks. Hell, there was a timew when the Gracies offered to sweeten the pot above and beyond the prize purse of the match if anybody could beat Rickson...never happened.

But a bunch of gravytrainers try and make it out to be something different. Even the legendary Marco Huas has gravytrained the guy. "Rickson won't fight me." Yeah, buddy -- it's not like you couldn't have registered for any of the Juijitsu championships, or the Vale Tudo, there bud.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed May 31, 2006 11:01 pm

Obvious question: With all these Gracies running around have they ever fought each other?

Like the Williams sisters it seems like Rickson should've encountered one of his brothers/cousins/evil spawn somewhere...

How does Fester's guy, that crazy Russian Fedor, how does he fit into all this?

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed May 31, 2006 11:23 pm

Van wrote:Obvious question: With all these Gracies running around have they ever fought each other?

Nope. Or, not anywhere you and I are ever going to see or hear about it. That's behind-closed-door shit. The reason being, that they feel that their entire clan is entitled to an undefeated career, if they develope the skills to do so. They won't enter a student/team member in a contest where they might run up against one of their other team members -- they know they're staus amongst each other, and that is kept to themselves. They consider it a professional ethics issue. Rickson is pretty devout towards his business ethics and professionalism...big deal to him.

How does Fester's guy, that crazy Russian Fedor, how does he fit into all this?

Just bear in mind...Fester had the gall to quote an article that, amongst other hilarious mistruths, tries to tell us...

his disinterest in competition during the 1990s will cement him as one of the sport’s biggest absentee athletes.

I'm pretty sure that any martial arts writer knew full well that Rickson competed in, and won (easily) the top MMA competition in the world at the time, and went back and defended his title...in the mid 90's...at age 38.

Make your own judgement on whether you should take Fester's "opinions" with a grain of salt or not.

Micheal Jordan was scared to play in a playoff series with us. What a pussy.

Sin,
The Early 90's Los Angeles Clippers, and Rickson Haters

Grain of salt, my brother. Sometimes people get a shitty view of the penthouse when they're in the sewer.

Rack Fu · Post by **Rack Fu** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:35 am

Van wrote:Wait a sec here...

This Sak guy apparently got destroyed by Wanderlei Silva. Okay. Now, if this...

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/figh ... hterID=209

...is the same guy we're talking about here then this guy has five losses and a draw in his UFC career. That's just his UFC career.

Maybe we're talking about a different guy? Zy's article keeps mentioning a Vanderlei Silva, with a "V", not a "W', so maybe it's a different guy?

Same guy. It's spelled with a W but pronounced with a V.

Sakuraba got absolutely destroyed by Wanderlei Silva not once but THREE times.