Just saw this posed on ESPN...

the_ouskull · Post by **the_ouskull** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:30 pm

Who's the better coach? Dean Smith or Coach K? Why?

the_ouskull

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 10:09 pm

Too close to call...both have amazing strengths.

Coach K is a defensive wiz...his teams always play great team defense.
Smith invented the four corners offense.

Coach K & Smith run/ran clean programs.

They both have the high win totals, numerous trips to the Final Four and several national titles.

I think the one nod I give to Smith over Coach K is the fact his players translate into NBA players much better. Duke just isn't an NBA machine like Carolina. Just off the '84 team...Jordan, Worthy, Perkins. Duke's best product was Grant Hill and he can't stay healthy anymore. Elton Brand has become a solid player also. Most of the greats became journeymen...Laettner, Ferry, Hurley, etc. I almost think Coach K stresses a team game a little more while Smith basically managed great individual talent.

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 3:41 am

Coach K b/c he has won more Nat'l championships and been to more Final Four's. His record of 6 straight ACC titles is something Smith never accomplished.

Shine · Post by **Shine** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 5:36 am

All things considered, they're prolly the two most overrated coaches ever. For all the stockpiles of talent each guy had, they were a couple breaks away from having no titles between them. Both great men and great basketball minds, but all things being equal they sure did underachieve on the biggest stage. At least when Sam Gilbert got the talent to UCLA they produced.

helmet · Post by **helmet** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:46 pm

Shine, if you take away a couple of breaks that won championships, I want a couple back....Scotty Thurman's rainbow three in 94 and Langdon's turnover against UConn in 99 are good places to start.

I'd say Dean has a miniscule advantage right now. But by the time K retires there will be no comparison.

King Crimson · Post by **King Crimson** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:00 pm

Billy Tubbs.

Oh wait i thought i was at OUinsider.

i agree with helmet that when it's all said and done it's be gonna be K (especially if he wins another one). and the championships are the signature moments but it's the not seen on TV conference games where you win on the road at Wake or NC State of Clempson where there is still the same coaching effort that makes coaches what they are.

and not just Dickie V. howling at the ACC moon while getting a handjob from Brent under the table courtside on Sunday afternoon network TV.

and as far as the NBA thing. Brand and Maguette are solid players.

SunCoastSooner · Post by **SunCoastSooner** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:30 pm

King Crimson wrote:Billy Tubbs.

You should be flogged publicly KC

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Fri Feb 11, 2005 7:15 pm

Shine wrote:All things considered, they're prolly the two most overrated coaches ever. For all the stockpiles of talent each guy had, they were a couple breaks away from having no titles between them. Both great men and great basketball minds, but all things being equal they sure did underachieve on the biggest stage. At least when Sam Gilbert got the talent to UCLA they produced.

Only Shine would call Coach K overrated. If everyone says he's the greatest coach ever, in that case, I'd agree that he's being overrated because he probably isn't the best ever. However, in this case, we're just discussing who's better out of two great coaches. No one is calling either of them the best ever.

He probably should've had a couple more titles but how many teams have 3 national titles in the last 15 years? Compared to the UCLA teams of the 60s and 70s, they're small potatoes..but right now, Duke is still one of the premier programs in the nation and will be that way as long as Coach K in on their bench.

SunCoastSooner · Post by **SunCoastSooner** » Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:41 pm

The man won at Army, nuff said.

Shine · Post by **Shine** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:00 am

helmet wrote:Shine, if you take away a couple of breaks that won championships, I want a couple back....Scotty Thurman's rainbow three in 94 and Langdon's turnover against UConn in 99 are good places to start.

Apples and oranges helmet. The breaks I'm talking about for those two guys go beyond tough shots going in or late errors in key situations. I'm talking about stuff like an opponent throwing the ball to the wrong guy with nobody around, an opponent throwing the game, a ref fixing a game, and a bizarre late game blunder.

Shine · Post by **Shine** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:02 am

Shoalzie wrote: Only Shine would call Coach K overrated. If everyone says he's the greatest coach ever, in that case, I'd agree that he's being overrated because he probably isn't the best ever. However, in this case, we're just discussing who's better out of two great coaches. No one is calling either of them the best ever.

He probably should've had a couple more titles but how many teams have 3 national titles in the last 15 years? Compared to the UCLA teams of the 60s and 70s, they're small potatoes..but right now, Duke is still one of the premier programs in the nation and will be that way as long as Coach K in on their bench.

Uh, I believe I called BOTH K and the Dean overrated. Both guys ARE in the discussion for best coach ever, hence me saying they're overrated. Do you think the question on ESPN would be posed for any other reason??? I also point out that BOTH guys are great men and great basketball minds. I'm just of the opinion both guys underachieved given the talent they had at their disposal.

Shine · Post by **Shine** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:03 am

SunCoastSooner wrote:The man won at Army, nuff said.

K's Army record in 5 seasons: 72-59

Knight's Army record in 6 seasons: 102-50

Just sayin

SunCoastSooner · Post by **SunCoastSooner** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:35 pm

Shine wrote:
SunCoastSooner wrote:The man won at Army, nuff said.
K's Army record in 5 seasons: 72-59

Knight's Army record in 6 seasons: 102-50

Just sayin

How long ago did Knight coach at Army? Just wondering, not trying to blast the post. The Service academies competitiveness changed drasticallly from the 50s and 60s to the 80s and 90s. Kinight must have been there early 70s or earlier correct?

Funkywhiteboy · Post by **Funkywhiteboy** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:32 pm

Shoalzie wrote:Duke's best product was Grant Hill and he can't stay healthy anymore.

Actually, this season has been the first one in ages that Grant has managed
to avoid serious injury. But, there's plenty of season left to go! :twisted:

Jeff 2K5 · Post by **Jeff 2K5** » Sun Feb 13, 2005 9:01 am

Dean Smith = Don Shula.

If not for C Webb and Freddie Brown the Dean probably has zero rings and he coached for what, 40 years? The guy was a great coach no doubt, but when it came to the NCAA tournament he couldn't get the job done despite all of that "tobacco road" talent. And if not for Laettner's miracle in 92 and the horrible officiating in the Maryland game in 2001 and Coach Krybaby has only one ring in 25 years with superior talent every year.

Both guys are great coaches, but have either of them gotten the most out of a roster like Gary Williams? I say not.

In addition to Grant and Brand, you forgot Boozer, and Corey Maggette is improving. Keep watching Sheldon Williams, that guy can ball and he's going to be a solid NBA player by the time he gets there.

Shine · Post by **Shine** » Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:39 am

SunCoastSooner wrote: How long ago did Knight coach at Army? Just wondering, not trying to blast the post. The Service academies competitiveness changed drasticallly from the 50s and 60s to the 80s and 90s. Kinight must have been there early 70s or earlier correct?

Knight was there from 65 to 71
K was there from 75 to 80

Mustang · Post by **Mustang** » Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:06 pm

I guess one could make the argument that both K and Smith underracheived in the post season. But I was listening to Knight the other day who said there are PLENTY of great, great coaches that never win a title and lame coaches that actually win one (or more). Unfortunately, he continued, this is the measuring stick we use for coaches.

I've always said one thing people forget are all those regular season titles Smith won at Carolina yet in some years, his team didn't win the ACC Tournament and therefore didn't go to the NCAAs. K was a little luckier to come along later after the tournament expanded....yet has won his share of reg. season and ACC tournaments.

I used to bang on Smith for not having more rings, despite that ridiculous amount of talent (far, far exceding Duke's) he had. No more. Winning NCAA titles are tough and simply can't be done every year, regardless of talent level.

Shine · Post by **Shine** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:44 am

Mustang wrote:But I was listening to Knight the other day who said there are PLENTY of great, great coaches that never win a title and lame coaches that actually win one (or more).

Hmmm. Outside of Steve Fisher's dumbluck run in 89, I can't think of a lame coach that actually WON the whole thing. Plenty made it to the FF, but Fisher's the only one I recall walking out with the trophy.

helmet · Post by **helmet** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:15 pm

Since 1985, when the field expanded to 64:

Massimino (Villanova)
Crum (Louisville)
Knight (IU)
Brown (KU)
Fisher (UM)
Tarkanian (UNLV)
Krzyzewski (Duke)
Krzyzewski (Duke)
Dean Smith (UNC)
Richardson (Arkansas)
Harrick (UCLA)
Pitino (UK)
Olson (Arizona)
Tubby Smith (Kentucky)
Calhoun (UConn)
Izzo (MSU)
Krzyzewski (Duke)
Williams (MD)
Boeheim (Syracuse)
Calhoun (UConn)

Of that group, Massimino, Fisher, and Harrick stand out to me. Tark and Richardson maybe because of off the court issues, but they were good coaches.

Mook · Post by **Mook** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:41 pm

Harrick was actually a pretty good coach. He had nice runs with not only UCLA, but Rhode Island and UGA as well. Of course, he maybe wasn't as scrupulous as some.......but that is another topic!

Mustang · Post by **Mustang** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:51 pm

Shine wrote:
Mustang wrote:But I was listening to Knight the other day who said there are PLENTY of great, great coaches that never win a title and lame coaches that actually win one (or more).
Hmmm. Outside of Steve Fisher's dumbluck run in 89, I can't think of a lame coach that actually WON the whole thing. Plenty made it to the FF, but Fisher's the only one I recall walking out with the trophy.

Yeah, the name "Steve Fisher" kept running through my head as I was writing that. Maybe Bob should adjust this statement....

Shine · Post by **Shine** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:54 pm

helmet wrote: Of that group, Massimino, Fisher, and Harrick stand out to me.

I'm with Mook on this one, Harrick was a pretty decent coach. Just a lousy human. Massimino I'm on the fence on. By no means a legend, but not sure I'd toss the "lame" label on him. Fisher just blew a 10 point lead in 28 seconds.