MIA - Iraq

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The Seer
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Post by The Seer »

BSmack wrote:
Tom In VA wrote:Well there it is.

I can find article after article about how our military polices it's own, right now. Marines, Airborne troopers, who might have crossed the line and will be subject to scrutiny.

Will we see the same, in regards to our mothers' sons ? I think not.

BSmack, Marty and Risa, shove it right up your ass.
Why the melting? Did I ever once endorse torture by EITHER side?


Gitmo detainees are provided food of their chosen diet; guards wear gloves when handling their korans; they are overlooked by the international red cross....

Two uniformed soldiers apprehended, tortured, and killed. And the U.S. are the bad guys.....

Some of you are dumber than rocks..... :meds:
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Post by Cicero »

This war wont be over until the US stoops to the level of the sandreggins and gives them a dose of their own medicine.
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Post by Uncle Fester »

Not really a fan of Mr. Bean.
Jus sayin.

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Post by Mister Bushice »

The Seer wrote:
BSmack wrote:
Tom In VA wrote:Well there it is.

I can find article after article about how our military polices it's own, right now. Marines, Airborne troopers, who might have crossed the line and will be subject to scrutiny.

Will we see the same, in regards to our mothers' sons ? I think not.

BSmack, Marty and Risa, shove it right up your ass.
Why the melting? Did I ever once endorse torture by EITHER side?
Two uniformed soldiers apprehended, tortured, and killed. And the U.S. are the bad guys.....
What did you expect from animals who bomb their own people? that they'd feed them dinner then send them home? It's still a war over there with an enemy that doesn't care if it lives. Can't expect them to extend any courtesies t us they don't extend to themselves.

And it won't stop until we are gone from there.
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Post by PSUFAN »

He knows absolutely nothing about it.

I'm not sure whether that's good or bad.
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mvscal wrote:France totally kicks ass.
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Post by Cicero »

mvscal wrote:
Cicero wrote:This war wont be over until the US stoops to the level of the sandreggins and gives them a dose of their own medicine.
What the fuck do you know about it?

Excuse me midget? Although I have never been in war, I do know that we are not using our military to the fullest capability and that if we did, this war would be over sooner rather than later.
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Post by PSUFAN »

You're a fucking nimrod...there's always that.
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mvscal wrote:France totally kicks ass.
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Post by Cicero »

You're such a fucking badass. Red hair and all.
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Post by PSUFAN »

I'm tough enough, Crown.
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mvscal wrote:France totally kicks ass.
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Post by Felix »

Mister Bushice wrote:
What did you expect from animals who bomb their own people?
Bomb?

They just drag them off busses and shoot them in the head.......
get out, get out while there's still time
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Post by Cicero »

mvscal wrote:
Cicero wrote:
mvscal wrote: What the fuck do you know about it?

Excuse me midget? Although I have never been in war, I do know that we are not using our military to the fullest capability and that if we did, this war would be over sooner rather than later.
So, despite never having served a day of your life in any capacity whatsoever, we are to believe that you better know how to manage the war than the officers and men who are actually over there fighting it.

Is that accurate? Get back to me when you have enlisted, you worthless shit-stained scab.

You yourself admitted that this war would be over if "we were allowed to take the gloves off."
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Post by Cicero »

PSUFAN wrote:I'm tough enough, Crown.

I'll let him know you said hi.
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Post by Cicero »

I totally wasnt advocating carthage, and I def didnt say anything you havent.
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Post by BSmack »

Cicero wrote:I totally wasnt advocating carthage, and I def didnt say anything you havent.
So like dude, were you totaly advocating anything?
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Post by Van »

BSmack wrote:
Cicero wrote:I totally wasnt advocating carthage, and I def didnt say anything you havent.
So like dude, were you totaly advocating anything?
LOL!!
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Post by Justa Heel »

Cicero wrote:I totally wasnt advocating carthage.
The ancient city of Carthage? Heil Scippio! Heil Scippio!
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Post by Risa »

Tom In VA wrote:Well there it is.


I can find article after article about how our military polices it's own, right now. Marines, Airborne troopers, who might have crossed the line and will be subject to scrutiny.

Will we see the same, in regards to our mothers' sons ? I think not.

BSmack, Marty and Risa, shove it right up your ass.
you can also find article after article -- in other countries -- about how citizens are pissed off with how a US court has managed to find for no culpability on the part of servicemen who have gotten into a little trouble overseas. that's not the issue.


the issue is, do unto others. when you give your blessings to performing torture upon others, you are also giving your blessings to others torturing you. the rest of the world doesn't have to have military courts investigate or punish their own; what matters is us having the upper hand.

we don't have the upper hand when we GIVE IT AWAY to others. that's all, man. so, if those two servicemen were really tortured before being put to death, not a damn thing the US can say about it. We gave our blessings, it's just war. Collect the bodies, move on, whatever.

Neither martyr nor bsmack nor I are talking about 'ooo we can't wait for us soldiers to be tortured' or 'oooo declare jihad, baby!!1'. Where are you getting that from, Tom? :( We are pointing out hypocrisy, and the price that comes with that hypocrisy. That's all. That is not the same as wishing ill upon anyone.

For me, again, we should never give any nation or any people on this earth justification for kicking our ass. The Bush administration does so, with our neighbors to the south (a whole nother thread, i know) and with the bullshit going down in the middle east. That's all, too.

Don't nobody want nobody to die, man. Don't nobody want nobody to be tortured. Don't nobody want nobody to be hurt. Martyred wants folks to COME HOME. Martyr does not feel that this war is just, is on the up and up, is worth 2500+ lives. Martyr sure as hell doesn't want folks tortured over bullshit. Now the shoe is on the other foot.... where can the US stand, now that the US is officially on the side of 'torture is kosher'?

We're standing in our own shit, that's what. We aint got the upper hand on this issue anymore, Tom. Once torture is an above board policy decision.... god, man. Makes me want to hold my head in my hands and just bawl. You know what I mean? can you?
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Post by Risa »

BSmack wrote:Image
i can't decide if this dude looks like a filled out Steve Buscemi or a thin Rowan Atkinson.
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Post by Risa »

The Seer wrote:
BSmack wrote:
Tom In VA wrote:Well there it is.

I can find article after article about how our military polices it's own, right now. Marines, Airborne troopers, who might have crossed the line and will be subject to scrutiny.

Will we see the same, in regards to our mothers' sons ? I think not.

BSmack, Marty and Risa, shove it right up your ass.
Why the melting? Did I ever once endorse torture by EITHER side?


Gitmo detainees are provided food of their chosen diet; guards wear gloves when handling their korans; they are overlooked by the international red cross....

Two uniformed soldiers apprehended, tortured, and killed. And the U.S. are the bad guys.....

Some of you are dumber than rocks..... :meds:
And what of the gitmo detainees who shouldnt be there in the first place, but were kidnapped and SOLD to the U.S. in order to collect on the military's bounty?

No prison will ever trump the sweetness of freedom -- especially when you're not supposed to be there in the first place. I guess you have to be black and grow up with the truth about what history used to leave out, to understand that, though. But surely I'm not right on that. Right?

The US has given its stamp of approval to the use of torture on prisoners of war. That is the bottom line. There can be no wailing or gnashing of teeth on our end. There can be no calls of 'this is an outrage'.

We perpetrate outrages. We did it. We do it. Our president made excuses for it. Dickheaded now but he knew of what he spoke of Senator John McCain was CENSURED for disagreeing with the president and his cabinet on that point. Or do you get off on the thought of a straight razor sliced across your pecker to get you to say what your tormentors want you to say?
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Post by Risa »

mvscal wrote:
Risa wrote:the issue is, do unto others. when you give your blessings to performing torture upon others, you are also giving your blessings to others torturing you.
Why then do you piss, moan and complain when neck choppers get slapped around in their cell or does this "do unto others" rule only work one way?

They do have it coming, right?
People will do what people will do. Since people are gonna do it, its best to be on the right side of things.

In World War II, would you have rather come across the British and Americans, or would you have rather come across the Germans (especially in the latter days)? What happened when word spread about how the Germans were treating potential prisoners of war?

Exactly. Same shit with the torture shit. People gonna do what they gonna do. Better to be on the right side of it, so that when they come across you, they don't engage in worse out of fear of you.
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Post by Risa »

mvscal wrote:
Risa wrote:why kill them so soon?
They don't have the luxury of time. AQ in Iraq is getting pounded in the shitter.
and if Al-Queda is a hydra (on top of a Goldberg), at this point?
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Post by Risa »

Justa Heel wrote:
Cicero wrote:I totally wasnt advocating carthage.
The ancient city of Carthage? Heil Scippio! Heil Scippio!
Fuck Scipio. And anyway, Jugurtha was cuter.
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Post by Risa »

Who are you addressing?
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Post by Risa »

mvscal wrote:
Risa wrote:
mvscal wrote: They don't have the luxury of time. AQ in Iraq is getting pounded in the shitter.
and if Al-Queda is a hydra (on top of a Goldberg), at this point?
No, actually they are a turd circling the bowl.
Well, somebody ate their fiber, cuz the damn thing just keeps floating up, doesn't it.

Do you honestly believe that we'll ever get rid of the al-quedas of the world... by playing their game? and what about the rest of the world, willing to do some funding of groups, playing their own little mini-cold war/mini-nicaragua games with us through proxies?

The only thing we got, besides firepower, is integrity. We gotta have the moral high ground as well as the other. We ain't got it no more, man. That's all. Maybe it doesn't matter; if it doesn't matter -- if a moral high ground doesn't matter, if winning by any means is the only means -- just say so. Explain it, too, but just say so.
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Post by Risa »

mvscal wrote:
Risa wrote:And anyway, Jugurtha was cuter.
He was white too, dumbass.
please. honey was a sweet looking african bedouin with the pretty eyes in that dark face. too bad he was brought to rome in chains. but he kicked some ass before they got him, and the romans respected the shit out of him. wonder what the world would have been like if he'd won.
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Post by Van »

Cutting heads off and filming it for world view is not the same at all as what we've been reported to do to some prisoners.

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Post by Risa »

mvscal wrote:
Risa wrote:please. honey was a sweet looking african bedouin with the pretty eyes in that dark face.
Numidians were Berbers not negroes.
Black is black. Even with the pretty Rick Fox eyes.
too bad he was brought to rome in chains.
Maybe he should have thought of that before he decided to fuck with them. He was a murderer and a usurper.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained. He thought he could win. He ultimately didn't (which is different from never having a chance in hell). Bummer for him and his. History is never a sure thing... especially when it looks like a sure thing.
the romans respected the shit out of him.
He was respected for his service with Rome in the Numantine War in Spain which was where he developed his Senatorial contacts.
In other words, without Jugurtha, Rome would have been in a pretty mess in several parts of its world, yes? What if Jugurtha didn't want to remain merely a vassal, merely a pawn-of-equal-standing of Rome and Rome's ruling class?
Evidently his contacts were not sufficiently well placed to induce Rome to look the other way for his coup, though.
Maybe because those senators had their own plans for their own personal coups?
wonder what the world would have been like if he'd won.
The same as if he'd lost.
Nonsense. This is Roma we're talking about. Roma did a lot of infighting, but NO ONE was allowed to displace Roma. Somebody kicking Rome's ass to the curb would have been a major, major issue in world history.

So we get another African to attempt to succeed where Hannibal ultimately failed, and you're saying there wouldn't have been shockwaves -- especially given the type of reaction Hannibal's name conjured within Romans -- if Jugurtha hadn't pulled the ancient world's 9/11? I call Bullshit.
He was a nothing.
Gaius Marius didn't think so. Neither did most of those who mattered in Rome.
On the other hand, his actions did make Marius' career and Roman history would certainly have been profoundly different without that career.
Too bad he had that stroke. Then again, maybe that stroke saved his life.... kind of like being cripple saves a new king's brother from the slaughter of attempts at ascendency in harem societies? I don't know. But every man wanes, and eventually dies. What he attempts to create doesn't always live on after him, or live on in the way in which he would have imagined would have been best. See Augustus and Aurelius?
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Post by Risa »

Van wrote:Cutting heads off and filming it for world view is not the same at all as what we've been reported to do to some prisoners.

-M.A.
But torture is torture. and dead is dead.
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Post by LTS TRN 2 »

Great, bab's military pantheon goes straight back to Cato the Elder. Why are we not surprised that his latter day heroes become the Grants, Goerings and Rommels--with Himmler as philosophical advisor?

Well, gee, surprise, surpise. The Insurgency executed the American soldiers. And.....what do you suppose the Polish locals would have done to Nazi soldiers thay captured in '41? What would YOU do if you captured marauding murderous storm-troopers who had invaded your country on total lies and disimformation? If they had destroyed your nation's infrastructure, and murdered your family. What would YOU do?

Let's start taking the advice of a LONG-time battle tested marine like Jack Murtha.

Can anyone doubt his expertise? His patriotism? His basic honesty?

Meanwhile the Cheney/Chimp cabal--which is ENTIRELY comprised, let's remember, of chickenhawks (that is, folks who talk tough about war and American interventionism, but who have skirted any military duty whatsoever), gets to watch ANOTHER member of it's gang--the "procurement manager"--get hauled off to prison for corruption.

Why should anyone belive or trust the Chimp, Rummy, or the Dark Lord himself, Cheney, rather than Jack Murtha?

Put up or shut up!
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Post by Van »

Risa wrote:
Van wrote:Cutting heads off and filming it for world view is not the same at all as what we've been reported to do to some prisoners.

-M.A.
But torture is torture. and dead is dead.
And we do very little of the former and none of the latter while the other side predictably mutilates and kills our prisoners within two days of abducting them.

When an Arab is taken prisoner by Americans his side doesn't KNOW he'll be slaughtered and dumped on the street within a couple of days. We KNOW this will happen when one of ours is taken.

When we simply humiliate a prisoner it's HUGE NEWS, worldwide. When they slaughter a prisoner, film it and then dump the body in the street as a trophy it barely merits a blink in their media.

If you can't see (and humbly acknowledge) the difference here then you're too much of an anti U.S. contrarian cunt to even be worth wasting one's breath on regarding this subject.
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Post by Shlomart Ben Yisrael »

RACK the Mossad Special Operations Team* for hitting paydirt with those two dumbfucks, and ensuring your stay in Iraq is dragged out even longer.



*I wonder if they'll get a bonus. And by bonus, I mean American tax dollars, naturally.
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Post by Risa »

Get the fuck out of here. How many times was Rome herself conquered? a military defeat isn't the same as someone storming into rome, planting a banner on each of the seven hills and boasting 'this shit is mine'.

You make it sound like Jugurtha and his people's contributions were a drop in the bucket that were easily replaced, and not truly valued for what they were. And how is Jugurtha defeating Rome just Jugurtha going back home to take his throne, and Rome being left to be Rome. Why enter a nation and conquer it then let it go about it's business after you've kicked it's ass? What's the point in conquering if you're not going to rule over that which you conquer, if you're not going to impose your will and your stamp upon that which you conquer?

Jugurtha would have been king. The Romans didn't want a king, at that time (though they were only about a little over a half century from getting the equivalent in spite of themselves?) If the throne was all Jugurtha wanted, and Roman accomodation to go with that, why not ask the Romans to provide military assistance in taking that throne? Why antagonize your buddies by going to war with them?


And I'm not buying that Gaius Marius pulled a Rove, and set up Jugurtha the entire time only to stab him in the back. Shit happened, but that's not the same as maneuvering shit to happen from beginning to end. Why does Jugurtha make a better fallen enemy than living ally?
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Post by Risa »

mvscal wrote:You're trying to make this dirtbag into some kind of heroic champion of the oppressed which he certainly was not. He was an amoral adventurer who thought nothing of murdering his own cousin in an attempt to usurp a throne that did not belong to him.
No. I'm taking Africa's side over Europe's.
I'm also saying he had pretty eyes. It's a
male thing; you should understand.
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Post by Risa »

Exactly how is his cousin anymore 'legitimate' than Jugurtha, when it all comes down to it, mvscal? blood? the will of the people? control of the military? the will of Rome? the will of god? manifest destiny? because it's right?

It's B.C. That was a harem society. In a harem society, legitimacy belongs to whoever is willing to take it, even if that means killing family. The only thing that really matters is strength.

If Jugurtha had that strength, then his claim is ultimately more 'legitimate' than his cousin's, particularly if Jugurtha would have been able to hold onto that power, make most of those in power happy on both sides of the Mediterranean.

Jugurtha took on Rome and lost. He had balls for days. And pretty eyes. I don't remember how he died, exactly. I do remember the tales of the 'parade' of Jugurtha and the chains, and the respect afforded him even in chains. That wasn't just in McCollough.

But you're the historian. Go for it. Jugurtha had no right because.... (and if that answer doesn't include 'total inepitude as a ruler, warrior and leader', then it's not an answer. in my opinion). (why do you sound so personally offended, anyway?)
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Post by Shlomart Ben Yisrael »

Iraqi troops killed 2 U.S. soldiers

"Two California soldiers shot to death in
Iraq were murdered by Iraqi civil-defense officers patrolling with them, military investigators have found."


I thought these guys went missing? Seems like some contradiction as to the events and the time.

If they were assigned to an Iraqi unit, wouldn't their whereabouts be immediately known when the unit returned from it's patrol? Why the delay?

Something stinks, America. You are being lied to.
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Post by JCT »

The deaths of Army Spc. Patrick R. McCaffrey Sr. and 1st Lt. Andre D. Tyson were originally attributed to an ambush during a patrol near Balad, Iraq, on June 22, 2004.




Great reading skills you have
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Post by Shlomart Ben Yisrael »

JCT wrote:The deaths of Army Spc. Patrick R. McCaffrey Sr. and 1st Lt. Andre D. Tyson were originally attributed to an ambush during a patrol near Balad, Iraq, on June 22, 2004.




Great reading skills you have
Stop splitting hairs. Who's side are you on, anyways? There's a war on. No time for "facts", and "reason".
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Post by Risa »

he just picked up the wrong story. i wonder why this still isn't a top ten story on google, though. it was a headline on yahoo over an hour ago:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... id=2099754

U.S. Forces Recover Booby-Trapped Bodies of 2 American Soldiers Reported Captured by Insurgents


BAGHDAD, Iraq Jun 20, 2006 (AP)— The U.S. military recovered the bodies Tuesday of two missing soldiers from an area it said was rigged with explosives. An Iraqi official said the Americans were tortured and killed in a "barbaric" way.

An insurgent group claimed the new leader of al-Qaida in Iraq executed the men personally, but it offered no evidence. The U.S. military did not confirm whether the soldiers died from wounds suffered in an attack Friday or were kidnapped and later killed.

The discovery of the bodies dealt a new setback to U.S. efforts to seize the momentum against al-Qaida in Iraq after killing its leader, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, in a June 7 airstrike. Violence was unabated Tuesday, with at least 18 people killed in attacks nationwide, including a suicide bombing of a home for the elderly in the southern city of Basra.

Coalition forces spotted the American soldiers' bodies late Monday, three days after the men disappeared following an attack on their checkpoint south of the capital, the military said. But troops delayed retrieving the remains until an explosives team cleared the area after an Iraqi civilian warned them to be alert for explosive devices.

"Coalition forces had to carefully maneuver their way through numerous improvised explosive devices leading up to and around the site," the military said in a statement. "Insurgents attempting to inflict additional casualties had placed IEDs around the bodies."

Maj. Gen. William Caldwell said the bodies were found together in the vicinity of an electrical plant, which would be just a few miles from where the initial attack took place near the town of Youssifiyah in the volatile Sunni Triangle south of Baghdad.

Caldwell said the remains were believed to be those of Pfc. Kristian Menchaca, 23, of Houston, and Pfc. Thomas L. Tucker, 25, of Madras, Ore. The bodies will be flown from Kuwait to Dover Air Force Base in Delaware for positive identification through autopsies and DNA testing.

Menchaca's cousin Sylvia Grice said the soldier visited relatives in Texas last month but didn't talk much about the war.

"He wanted to go out and visit his friends," she said. "He wanted to eat a hamburger. He didn't want to sit down and talk about what was going on. But he was very proud of serving his country and he believed in what he was doing."

The director of the Iraqi Defense Ministry's operation room, Maj. Gen. Abdul-Aziz Mohammed, said the bodies showed signs of having been tortured. "With great regret, they were killed in a barbaric way," he said.

The two soldiers disappeared after an insurgent attack at a checkpoint by a Euphrates River canal, 12 miles south of Baghdad. Spc. David J. Babineau, 25, of Springfield, Mass., was killed in the attack. The three men were assigned to the 1st Battalion, 502nd Infantry Regiment, 2nd Brigade, 101st Airborne Division from Fort Campbell, Ky.

Caldwell said only a single vehicle carrying the three U.S. soldiers was attacked. A witness has said two other Humvees were in the area and went after the assailants, while seven masked gunmen ambushed the third Humvee.

Some 8,000 Iraqi and U.S. troops searched for the missing soldiers. One U.S. soldier died and 12 were wounded during the search, Caldwell said, adding that coalition troops killed two insurgents and detained 78. The troops received 66 tips, 18 of which were considered worthy of follow up.

The Mujahedeen Shura Council, an umbrella organization of five insurgent groups led by al-Qaida in Iraq, posted an Internet statement Monday claiming it was holding the American soldiers captive and that "we shall give you more details about the incident in the next few days, God willing."

On Tuesday, after Iraqi officials disclosed that the bodies were found, the Shura Council posted another Web statement, saying al-Zarqawi's successor had "slaughtered" the soldiers. The language in the statement, which could not be authenticated, suggested the group was saying the men were beheaded.

"With God Almighty's blessing, Abu Hamza al-Muhajer carried out the verdict of the Islamic court" calling for the soldiers' slaying, the statement said.

The U.S. military has identified al-Muhajer as an Egyptian associate of al-Zarqawi also known as Abu Ayyub al-Masri. If confirmed, the killings would be the first acts of violence attributed to al-Muhajer since he was named the new leader of al-Qaida in Iraq in a June 12 Web message by the group.

Al-Zarqawi made al-Qaida in Iraq notorious for beheadings and was believed to have killed two American captives himself Nicholas Berg in April 2004 and Eugene Armstrong in September 2004. A dozen Americans are still missing in Iraq, Caldwell said.

Just hours before Tucker and Menchaca disappeared Friday, a U.S. airstrike killed a key al-Qaida in Iraq leader described as the group's "religious emir," Caldwell said.

Mansour Suleiman Mansour Khalifi al-Mashhadani, or Sheik Mansour, died along with two foreign fighters in the same area where the soldiers' bodies were found. The three were trying to flee in a vehicle.

Al-Mashhadani, identified as an Iraqi in his late 30s, was "a key leader of al-Qaida in Iraq, with excellent religious, military and leadership credentials" and tied to the senior leadership, including al-Zarqawi and his alleged replacement, Caldwell said.

U.S. forces captured Mansour in July 2004 because of his ties to the militant groups Ansar al-Islam and Ansar al-Sunna, but the military let him go because he was not deemed an important terror figure at the time.

Tuesday's violence across Iraq included at least three bombs striking Baghdad despite a security crackdown launched nearly a week ago.

In the bombing of the home for the elderly, an 18-year-old Sunni wearing an explosives belt blew himself up as senior citizens were lined up to collect monthly pensions. Two elderly women were killed and three people were wounded.

Police said the motive was unclear, but sectarian tensions have been worsening in the predominantly Shiite city of Basra.


Associated Press writers Patrick Quinn in Baghdad, Ryan Lenz in Balad, and Nadia Abou el-Magd in Cairo, Egypt, contributed to this report.


Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
on a short leash, apparently.
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LTS TRN 2
I suck Jew cock
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Post by LTS TRN 2 »

mvscal wrote:
LTS TRN 2 wrote:Can anyone doubt his expertise? His patriotism? His basic honesty?
Certainly. I would also add his sanity to the list.



Really, bab's..? You're ready to question Jack Murtha's expertise in military affairs? A highly decorated twenty-five year Marine colonel?

Bring it. Or, what, have you nothing more than your typical snips and evasions ("dipshit" ---oh, quality stuff)?

You're ready to question Murtha's patriotism? A staunch supporter of U.S. military policy from the democratic side for, what, twenty years?

Bring it. What exactly have you got?

And his sanity? Really? You're doubting his sanity because his experience tells him we're in a no-win quagmire? Have you even a tiny percentage of his fully explicated argument backing up his calls for getting the fuck out of Iraq?

What DO you have? Bring it or shut the fuck up, because time and time again you offer seemingly strong opinions--with nothing to back them up. Much in the manner of Rove and Rusp Limpdick.
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poptart
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Post by poptart »

His patriotism and honesty can be found in the shitter, and any 'expertise' he has is hopelessly trumped by his goofy political motivations.

In short, go fuck yourself, asshead.
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