Believers, a question from an agnostic...

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

^
Amen, my Brother.



Free Will:
For some a blessing
For others, a curse.

If you subscribe to the idea that we were all created by a god who is all-powerful & all-knowing, then there's no way that "free will" exists. It might seem like you're making your own choices, but god would already know what those choices are before you were ever born. That's not free will. That's pre-determination. You guys want to have your proverbial cake and eat it too.

An all-knowing god and mankind's "free will" are mutually exclusive.

You're still trying to apply fallible, finite thinking to that which is infallible and infinite. You exercise your will to believe or you do not i.e. you choose to believe or you do not. But I'll bet God knows what choice you'll make, and I have faith that it will be to believe on Him. In time, without argument or apologetics being necessary, when you're alone someday.

God bless you.

Tom,
You & I have gone back & forth on the whole "logic v. faith" topic for several pages in the past, and I'm sure we could go on for a few more. You're one of the few openly religious posters around these parts that seem to actually "walk the walk," and I respect the hell (err, heck) out of you for that.

I just can't get past the mutual exclusivity (by earthly logic, at least) of omniscience and free will. I mean, why would God allow mankind's laws of logic and science to stray so far from "the truth"? I refuse to believe that all of the findings of science over the past 2000 years that have unintentionally disproved many of the basic tenets of Biblical teachings are actually the work of an evil demon trying to confuse us. A demon, mind you, that God not only originally created, but allows to continually meddle in the fate of humanity. That just doesn't strike me as a very all-loving thing to allow to happen.

I know, I know, there I go again, applying earthly definitions of love to a being not of this earth. But as of right now, earthly logic is the only thing I've seen proven enough times to accept as fact.

I respect that you're willing to just say "It's beyond my understanding." Ultimately, we'll agree to disagree, but rack you for consistently standing up for your beliefs without ever shoving them down anybody's throat.

[Diogenes]

I refuse to believe that all of the findings of science over the past 2000 years that have unintentionally disproved many of the basic tenets of Biblical teachings are actually the work of an evil demon trying to confuse us.

Actually they are a product of sloppy thinking and a 'refusal to believe' or even consider The Truth. If anything science tends to demonstrate the validity of Biblical teachings. And again, if accuratly predicting the weather is beyond human capabilities, how do you expect to be able to fully understand the nature of the cosmos, or it's creator?

[Tom In VA]

Mike, thanks for the kind words and the feeling is mutual.

Back to business. What part of science refutes the notion of a God ?

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

Mike, thanks for the kind words and the feeling is mutual.

Back to business. What part of science refutes the notion of a God ?

I don't think science refutes the notion of a God, per se, but it certainly refutes "young Earth" teachings and the belief that all the various species of animals were created separately & simutaneously.

Belief in God and belief in science aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. It just depends on how literally you want to read the Bible.

[Tom In VA]

Well that all depends. Let's take "Creation vs. Evolution".

Can you tell me precisely, using accurate medical terms, from the point of origin of the thought to "pick up that stone", each synapse that's fired, each muscle, bone, and tendon required ?

My hunch is that the answer would be no, at least not without looking it up (unless you're familar with neurology, kinesieology (sp?), and a few other "ologies").

Here's my point.

1. Thousands of years ago, they didn't even use the symbols "pick up that stone" to describe the act of bending down, grasping that hard object and standing up again. It might have went something like "Ugh, ugh, ugh", or a picture was drawn.

2. Present day we can actually find the information necessary to give a detailed and often times overcomplicated explanation of a simple act.

Brain recognized need to pick up a stone, brain triggers synapses that release a hormone (or some actor) to trigger the muscles in the legs to ... and it's so complex, I can't even finish the statement. Instead I'll just say .... "He picked a fucking rock up off the ground".

Science, is discovery, it is not creation. Now while we have been able to discover things and use science to create .... we need to start with something that already exists. Right ?

So the point is, we're both right. Personally I believe God chooses to reveal what He wants to reveal when He wants to reveal it. He can do that because He's God, and there really isn't much anyone can do about that.

You say we've evolved and someone else says we're created. I say we wouldn't have evolved if nothing was created. Therefore, as a direct consequence of creation, we exist. Perhaps Adam and Eve were symbolic of the first life form to which God chose to reveal Himself. Afterall, He is God, started the whole thing and I'm sure if He chose to reveal Himself to a frog He could have done that. But He didn't, He did to the life forms we've come to know as "Homo Sapiens" or the one who "knows".

Interesting label "scientists" slapped on us isn't it ?

Anyway, I digress, my opinion is that we're really just discussing the different symbols used to describe the same thing ... creation. I'm sure I've bored you enough so I'll go ahead and ......

1. Use my wrist to manuever the mouse pointer over the button labelled "Submit"
2. Hover my mouse pointer over the button labelled "Submit"
3. Apply pressure to the left mouse button with my right index finger.
4. Wait while my web client sends an HTTP/POST request to the server.
etc... etc...

a.k.a "Hit Submit".

[poptart]

Mike,

You have in front of you the choice to accept or reject the Christ.
Is it God who has kept you, up to this point, from accepting Christ...?
You're a big boy and you make your own choice.

[tough love]

Careful Poppers, Mike doesn't like the 'shoving them down anybody's throat' thingy

I hope your throat is okay, Mike?

[tough love]

^
For a smuck who claims to be a godless heathen, me thinks ye protest to much.

Keep searching my brother ugly. :wink:

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Any tips on where I might find a talking snake?

Is that your pick-up line in the men's room?

[tough love]

mv asks:
Any tips on where I might find a talking snake?

A mirror. :P


Never stop searching, my wayward chum.

[Ang]

Anyone who has ever seen a Harry Potter movie knows that you go to the ladies room with a mirror to talk with talking snakes!

And that's all a great tale of the battle of good and evil...but fiction.

What we are talking about is real. Real God, real Christ, real Holy Spirit.

In our lives.

[G.O.]

^
Amen, my Brother.



Free Will:
For some a blessing
For others, a curse.

If you subscribe to the idea that we were all created by a god who is all-powerful & all-knowing, then there's no way that "free will" exists. It might seem like you're making your own choices, but god would already know what those choices are before you were ever born. That's not free will. That's pre-determination. You guys want to have your proverbial cake and eat it too.

An all-knowing god and mankind's "free will" are mutually exclusive.

pre-knowledge and pre-determination are 2 different things.

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

^
Amen, my Brother.



Free Will:
For some a blessing
For others, a curse.

If you subscribe to the idea that we were all created by a god who is all-powerful & all-knowing, then there's no way that "free will" exists. It might seem like you're making your own choices, but god would already know what those choices are before you were ever born. That's not free will. That's pre-determination. You guys want to have your proverbial cake and eat it too.

An all-knowing god and mankind's "free will" are mutually exclusive.

pre-knowledge and pre-determination are 2 different things.

Not if you're all-powerful.

[OUMO]

Well, say you start off all powerful. Seems like it would get boring always knowing what was going to happen. In that position I could see why God would allow free will, hell of a lot more exciting.

[Diogenes]

If you subscribe to the idea that we were all created by a god who is all-powerful & all-knowing, then there's no way that "free will" exists. It might seem like you're making your own choices, but god would already know what those choices are before you were ever born. That's not free will. That's pre-determination. You guys want to have your proverbial cake and eat it too.

An all-knowing god and mankind's "free will" are mutually exclusive.

pre-knowledge and pre-determination are 2 different things.

Not if you're all-powerful.

Not true. Just because God knows the choices we will make doesn't make them any less our choices.

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

pre-knowledge and pre-determination are 2 different things.

Not if you're all-powerful.

Not true. Just because God knows the choices we will make doesn't make them any less our choices.

I guess that depends on how much thought you think god put into creating each one of us.

I suppose it's feasible that an all-knowing, all-powerful god could implement a completely randomized process to create each of our individual "souls." But if you believe that god actually put some thought into creating you (and me, and everyone else), then that means, at some point in the creative process, he decided how we would respond to each choice we make in the course of our lives. If god created you, and if it was a case of "intelligent design" (where he actually thought about what he was creating), then ultimately, they were his choices before they were yours.

[poptart]

Mike,

You were born into Adam's sin.
THAT is what God allowed to happen.
That sin brings death.

But God didn't leave you there.
He gave you Christ to get out of your problem.

And you choose to question his methods ... ?

Why ... ?

Has He programmed you to reject such a phenomenal gift ... ?


It's in YOUR court, fella.

[Diogenes]

But if you believe that god actually put some thought into creating you (and me, and everyone else), then that means, at some point in the creative process, he decided how we would respond to each choice we make in the course of our lives.

No. Even if he knew the choices beforehand, the choices are still mine to make.

[Q, West Coast Style]

Here's a take a rarely share with others:

I used to feel somewhat embarrassed to admit to others (generally, believers) that I didn't believe. I felt like they would feel less of me (cause they would.)

But then one day I realized something about believers (particularly Christians, but also, Jews, Muslims and some others) . . .

They worship and fear an imaginary man they think lives in the sky! And who goes around with a list of who's "saved" and such. (Does he check it twice like Santa Clause?).

That's bad. That's not good. Imaginary friends are good for little kids. Helps them develop their imagination. But adults? And this imaginary friend is going to influence the way people make the biggest decisions in their lives? That's messed up. Sorry. It just is.

[poptart]

Q, do you believe there is a God ... ?

[Q, West Coast Style]

Q, do you believe there is a God ... ?

It depends upon what your definition of God is. I do not believe in a human form of God, no. The god that they try and frighten kids with at Sunday school or the god that middle east zealots blow themselves up over, no.

There are forces beyond my comprehention, yes. What they are, neither me or anyone else is in any position to comment with any confidence or authority on the nature of those forces. Anyone who says they know with any kind of certainty is either lying or ignorant.

I'm not going to make up an imaginary friend or by into someone else's club just because I'm afraid of dying. Nor do I need to subscribe to these things in order to treat other people with respect and live a quality life.

I guess if I have a standard response for people who try and tell me that they have the answere re religion it's this:

"Says who?"

If their response is "The Bible"

I again, must say "Says who?"

[poptart]

I assume the 'forces beyond your comprehension' are what you consider to be 'God' ... ?

I don't want to put words in your mouth though.

Can you clarify that please .. ?


ty

[Q, West Coast Style]

I assume the 'forces beyond your comprehension' are what you consider to be 'God' ... ?

I don't want to put words in your mouth though.

Can you clarify that please .. ?


ty

"Where's the evidence? Now, the word God is used to cover a wide variety of very different ideas, ranging maybe from the idea of an outsized light-skinned male with a long white beard who sits in a throne in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow--for which there is no evidence, none at all--to the view of Einstein, of Spinoza, which is essentially that God is the sum total of the laws of nature. And since there are laws of nature ... if that's what you mean by God, then of course there's a God. So everything depends on the definition of God. . . . I find that you learn absolutely nothing about someone's belief if yu ask them 'Do you believe in God?' and they say yes or no. You have to specify which of the countless kinds of God you have in mind."

---Carl Sagan

I guess my belief about what "God" is would be close to Einstein's. That is, the sum of all the laws of nature. I try not to use the word "God" though, because that implies, to most people, to some degree, a man in the sky. I don't want to be associated with that belief. Just as I don't want to be seen as someone who worships Zeus or Mother Goose Fairlytales.

[poptart]

Fair enough, Q.

Thanks for the clarification.

[KC Scott]

Man has always sought answers for questions that cannot be answered.

To answer these questions, man created religion

Religion - a thousand different religions are chronicaled through the history of time.
All of these religions have one thing in common - They all proclaimed to be the one true religion.

A question that can be asked of any religion;
If your God(s) created all men -
Why would he seek to exclude so many through time and history based purely on the culture or geography they lived in?

I believe that most of the people of the world need something to believe in.
Call it a Moral compass, a comfort in the face of hardship or a mental bonding with like minded individuals.
It all really amounts to the same thing.

I respect the right of everyone to believe as they wish.
I just wish those that have different beliefs didn't feel the need to kill others that don't share their view.

[poptart]

Man has always sought answers for questions that cannot be answered.

To answer these questions, man created religion

I agree.

Man created religion out of a spiritual hunger.

God is spirit, and He created man in His image ..... spirit.
Unlike animals, man is a spiritual being.
As such, man naturally seeks to fulfill his spiritual longing.
Religion is one way man seeks.

Religion will NEVER get a man to meet God.

Religion - a thousand different religions are chronicaled through the history of time.
All of these religions have one thing in common - They all proclaimed to be the one true religion.

What do you think, Scott ... ?
Is there A truth ... ?

A question that can be asked of any religion;
If your God(s) created all men -
Why would he seek to exclude so many through time and history based purely on the culture or geography they lived in?

It's an interesting question.

Sometime when you have a few minutes to kill, give the first 3 books of Genesis a read, Scott.

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/moden ... vGene.html

I believe that most of the people of the world need something to believe in.
Call it a Moral compass, a comfort in the face of hardship or a mental bonding with like minded individuals.
It all really amounts to the same thing.

Man is a spiritual being, and he has a spiritual hunger.

I respect the right of everyone to believe as they wish.
I just wish those that have different beliefs didn't feel the need to kill others that don't share their view.

IN

[KC Scott]

Religion will NEVER get a man to meet God.

But all reliogons profess theirs is the path to meet their "One True God"

What do you think, Scott ... ?
Is there A truth ... ?

Yes, beacuse I believe in absolutes.

The world was absolutely formed - we are the proof of that.

How it was formed is conjecture.

Science interprets the universe was formed from a "big bang" - Conjecture at the very least
Religion interprets it was created by a divine being - Conjecture

Will we ever know the real answer - No

What we do know is there is scientific evidence that Man evolved - This refutes religious doctrine
We also know that man was preceeded by other life on this planet- Again contrary to religious doctrine

Sometime when you have a few minutes to kill, give the first 3 books of Genesis a read, Scott.

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/moden ... vGene.html

I have read it David.

I'm sure you know that Christianity, Judism & Muslim all sprouted from the same "tree"

Abraham was the "founder" if you will that all three sprung from

Man is a spiritual being, and he has a spiritual hunger.

I think it's more like Man is Ego Driven Creature;
If he cannot know the answer to questions that cannot be answered,
He will create answers.

Right or Wrong.

And he will defend his answers - to the death in some cases - against those with different answers

Me? To be honest I don't give a lot of thought to those things out of my control.

My search for truth brought me back to one thing I can control - Me.

My personnal resolve to be all that I can be is the guiding hand in my life.

But I respect others rights to choose whatever path works for them

[poptart]

Religion will NEVER get a man to meet God.

But all reliogons profess theirs is the path to meet their "One True God"

They do, yes.

Belief in the risen Christ is in no way a religion.
It is a faith.
Christ rose, showed himself, and then (in his final words) told his disciples to wait for the Holy Spirit so that they could then be witnesses of Him in all the earth.
They then did that.
There was absolutely NO religion in this at all.
Only later did man pervert things (as he ALWAYS does) and ADD a lot of strange 'religious' aspects and 'requirements' to the simple message of belief in the risen Christ.

Christian religion is an oxymoron.

What we do know is there is scientific evidence that Man evolved - This refutes religious doctrine
We also know that man was preceeded by other life on this planet- Again contrary to religious doctrine

'Evidence' is not the same as fact.
Evolution is not a fact.
There is also evidence of a young earth, evidence of the flood, and on and on.........

I'm sure you know that Christianity, Judism & Muslim all sprouted from the same "tree"

Abraham was the "founder" if you will that all three sprung from

Yes.

You know, Mohammed, Confucious, Buddah, Darwin, .... whoever ..... are all in their grave.
Jesus is the only one who rose out of his grave, and the only one who made claim to being God.
When a person hears that Jesus is the Christ, who rose from the dead, they are faced with a choice.
Believe it or not.

Who do you say that Jesus is .... ?
Everyone who hears of Him must give an answer to that question.

[battery chucka' one]

Well here's another poser for you guys then.

How do you reconcile an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving god with the fucked up shit that happens in the world every day?

I'm willing to allow that there might be a god that has two of those three characteristics, but a god with all three would have never created this world, knowing how it would end up.

Free will. Why do parents allow their children to make mistakes? They hope their children will learn from them and turn to the parent's teachings, which should be based from love.

[battery chucka' one]

You're wrong Dio but I think you know that. The bible is one of the most revised works in human history. Try reading a translation, a propper translation, of the Hebrew scriptures and then get back to us about wheather the bible has been revised.

You mean like the "revisions" from the "secret gospel of Mark"?

Actually it hasn't, all of the variations in the oldest manuscripts available are minor and of little theological consequence.

"Available" being the operative term...

Ever heard of the dead sea scrolls? They all, at last check, predate the Gospels.

[battery chucka' one]

^
Amen, my Brother.



Free Will:
For some a blessing
For others, a curse.

Rack it.

[battery chucka' one]

What would it take for you to stop believing what you currently believe? Is there any scenario, no matter how far-fetched, in which you might say "Wow, I guess I was wrong this whole time"?

For example, let's say a being appeared on earth tomorrow and said "Hey, sorry about all the confusion, but I'm the one who got this whole thing rolling billions of years ago. Just wanted to clear things up so you all can stop killing each other over made-up gods."

Let's say this being allows himself to be tested in every conceivable way. It performs miracles, reads minds, etc. It basically says, "I'm willing to do whatever it takes to prove to mankind that I'm the real deal." And every single time someone comes up with a test, it passes it. Even the vast majority of religious leaders in the world ultimately come around and say, "Yeah, it looks like we were wrong. This being is the real deal."

Would you renounce your current beliefs and admit you were wrong, or would you just chalk it up as an elaborately staged trick by Satan to tempt you into not believing?

Dio, how did you miss this? The above...........is going to happen.

Yeah. True. Fortunately, I don't plan on being around when it does. :( This one has been written of already.....as has his brand. Too much pain in those days. I'm glad, again, that I won't be there. Neither will many I care about. Unfortunately, more I care about will be here. And they will believe the lies. They will accept the brand. I pray for them even now. I pray for them often.

[battery chucka' one]

^
Amen, my Brother.



Free Will:
For some a blessing
For others, a curse.

If you subscribe to the idea that we were all created by a god who is all-powerful & all-knowing, then there's no way that "free will" exists. It might seem like you're making your own choices, but god would already know what those choices are before you were ever born. That's not free will. That's pre-determination. You guys want to have your proverbial cake and eat it too.

An all-knowing god and mankind's "free will" are mutually exclusive.

You're still trying to apply fallible, finite thinking to that which is infallible and infinite. You exercise your will to believe or you do not i.e. you choose to believe or you do not. But I'll bet God knows what choice you'll make, and I have faith that it will be to believe on Him. In time, without argument or apologetics being necessary, when you're alone someday.

God bless you.

The longer it takes, my friend, the more it will hurt. I think Billy Graham said it best....'the same sun that melts butter also bakes clay'.

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

Well here's another poser for you guys then.

How do you reconcile an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving god with the fucked up shit that happens in the world every day?

I'm willing to allow that there might be a god that has two of those three characteristics, but a god with all three would have never created this world, knowing how it would end up.

Free will. Why do parents allow their children to make mistakes? They hope their children will learn from them and turn to the parent's teachings, which should be based from love.

What an utterly asinine comparison. Allowing your kid to dye his hair red even though you know he'll probably regret it is one thing. Allowing your kid to rape, torture, and kill your other kids is immoral, felonious, and downright evil. Nice god you've got there...

[battery chucka' one]

Well here's another poser for you guys then.

How do you reconcile an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving god with the fucked up shit that happens in the world every day?

I'm willing to allow that there might be a god that has two of those three characteristics, but a god with all three would have never created this world, knowing how it would end up.

Free will. Why do parents allow their children to make mistakes? They hope their children will learn from them and turn to the parent's teachings, which should be based from love.

What an utterly asinine comparison. Allowing your kid to dye his hair red even though you know he'll probably regret it is one thing. Allowing your kid to rape, torture, and kill your other kids is immoral, felonious, and downright evil. Nice god you've got there...

Nice to see the atheist (err...agnostic) has chosen to make an appearance. Perhaps, by your definition, a more loving God would desire to program us to be little robots, sans free will to speak of. Of course, rape, torture, and murder is wrong. God doesn't encourage this activity and quite loudly denounces it. Any parent who would do so would be negligent at best. But, what about any crime? Should a parent who doesn't chain his drug addict child to the house be considered bad parenting? No. You give your children the tools so they don't choose this criminal behavior. If they still engage in it, you love them just the same.

On the flip side, God has shown immense grace with humans. How many times have we been given each his or her own personal proof and still many deny His existence and sovereignity. Some give Him His just due and praise Him for it. Unfortunately, many ask Him for the impossible in their time of need and He comes through. The next day, they're pissing and moaning that much louder. The children of Israel did it and I'm sure many who read this have done it too. Ever happened to you, my drunken friend???

[battery chucka' one]

Well here's another poser for you guys then.

How do you reconcile an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving god with the fucked up shit that happens in the world every day?

I'm willing to allow that there might be a god that has two of those three characteristics, but a god with all three would have never created this world, knowing how it would end up.

Free will. Why do parents allow their children to make mistakes? They hope their children will learn from them and turn to the parent's teachings, which should be based from love.

What an utterly asinine comparison. Allowing your kid to dye his hair red even though you know he'll probably regret it is one thing. Allowing your kid to rape, torture, and kill your other kids is immoral, felonious, and downright evil. Nice god you've got there...

btw, were you saying that if your kid was a murderer/really bad person (of course, who are we to judge what is 'bad', right?), you wouldn't love them??

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

Free will. Why do parents allow their children to make mistakes? They hope their children will learn from them and turn to the parent's teachings, which should be based from love.

What an utterly asinine comparison. Allowing your kid to dye his hair red even though you know he'll probably regret it is one thing. Allowing your kid to rape, torture, and kill your other kids is immoral, felonious, and downright evil. Nice god you've got there...

btw, were you saying that if your kid was a murderer/really bad person (of course, who are we to judge what is 'bad', right?), you wouldn't love them??

No. I'm saying that if I had prior knowledge that my child was going to commit some unspeakable atrocity on one of my other children and I did nothing to stop it, that makes me an accesory. I'm saying that if I somehow (through a miracle of science, let's say ;) ) had billions of children, and continually allowed them to rape, torture, and murder one another, sometimes by the thousands, that would make me just as evil as the individual children who were committing said acts of horror, if not moreso.

Letting your kid try pot is not the same as letting your kid molest children or fly a plane into a building. How can you not see how flawed your analogy is?

In case you're still struggling with this, let me spell it out for you. The key difference is that doing drugs and dying one's hair a stupid color are only potentially harmful to the people who choose to do it. If you had prior knowledge that your child was going to beat the shit out of one of his/her weaker siblings, wouldn't you do everything in your power to stop it from happening? Or would you simply sit back and let "free will" take its course? Do you honestly believe that simply having told your children in the past that beating the shit out of one another is wrong somehow lets you off the hook for allowing it to happen?

BTW, why do you insist on implying that I'm an atheist? When have I ever said, in this this thread or any other, that god does not exist? Are you so feeble-minded and insecure in your faith that my questioning the existance of just the one particular version of god that you happen to believe in causes you to resort to false accusations & name-calling?

[Ang]

The idea that God allows people to do horrible things is sometimes promoted as some sort of proof that there is not God. What I would like to see from anyone who promotes that argument is an alternative. If you think that free will, and its sometimes disastrous results, is some sort of proof that God is not there or not just....well, what would be a better solution? To smite down people who are getting ready to do harm to others? To draw a Godly line in the sand that we mortals are not able to cross? Where would faith or even simple belief come into that, or would we all just be robots operating within allowed boundaries?

I think that sometimes the saying that we are all "children of God" sort of makes people think that we need to be treated like children. I think it's pretty obvious that God is not going to ground all the folks who do bad things to others.

Free will is actually a pretty beautiful concept, even with the bad that comes along with it, especially considering some of the cultural aspects during the time of the Bible was written and compiled.

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

The idea that God allows people to do horrible things is sometimes promoted as some sort of proof that there is not God.

I don't think it proves that there is no god, just that if there is a god, he is either not all-powerful, not omniscient, or not all-loving. Personally, if there is a god, I hope that it's one of the first two.

What I would like to see from anyone who promotes that argument is an alternative. If you think that free will, and its sometimes disastrous results, is some sort of proof that God is not there or not just....well, what would be a better solution? To smite down people who are getting ready to do harm to others? To draw a Godly line in the sand that we mortals are not able to cross? Where would faith or even simple belief come into that, or would we all just be robots operating within allowed boundaries?

I think that sometimes the saying that we are all "children of God" sort of makes people think that we need to be treated like children. I think it's pretty obvious that God is not going to ground all the folks who do bad things to others.

Free will is actually a pretty beautiful concept, even with the bad that comes along with it, especially considering some of the cultural aspects during the time of the Bible was written and compiled.

Free will, at least in terms of this argument, is only a beautiful concept if you happen to exercise your free will in precisely the right way. Taking the Bible literally, I would say that, yes, we would be better off as automatons if it meant that we'd eventually wind up in heaven. As it stands now, thanks to this wonderful "gift" of free will, the majority of humanity is doomed to burn in hell. Not because they've made a habit of harming their fellow humans, mind you, but simply because they were born into the "wrong" belief system, or had the audacity to question the "right" belief system.

[battery chucka' one]

What an utterly asinine comparison. Allowing your kid to dye his hair red even though you know he'll probably regret it is one thing. Allowing your kid to rape, torture, and kill your other kids is immoral, felonious, and downright evil. Nice god you've got there...

btw, were you saying that if your kid was a murderer/really bad person (of course, who are we to judge what is 'bad', right?), you wouldn't love them??

No. I'm saying that if I had prior knowledge that my child was going to commit some unspeakable atrocity on one of my other children and I did nothing to stop it, that makes me an accesory. I'm saying that if I somehow (through a miracle of science, let's say ;) ) had billions of children, and continually allowed them to rape, torture, and murder one another, sometimes by the thousands, that would make me just as evil as the individual children who were committing said acts of horror, if not moreso.

Letting your kid try pot is not the same as letting your kid molest children or fly a plane into a building. How can you not see how flawed your analogy is?

In case you're still struggling with this, let me spell it out for you. The key difference is that doing drugs and dying one's hair a stupid color are only potentially harmful to the people who choose to do it. If you had prior knowledge that your child was going to beat the shit out of one of his/her weaker siblings, wouldn't you do everything in your power to stop it from happening? Or would you simply sit back and let "free will" take its course? Do you honestly believe that simply having told your children in the past that beating the shit out of one another is wrong somehow lets you off the hook for allowing it to happen?

BTW, why do you insist on implying that I'm an atheist? When have I ever said, in this this thread or any other, that god does not exist? Are you so feeble-minded and insecure in your faith that my questioning the existance of just the one particular version of god that you happen to believe in causes you to resort to false accusations & name-calling?

There, there, there, Mike. You're not an atheist. I wouldn't kill my child that tried to beat another sibbling. I would still love them. Of course, I would try to intercede. But what if it happened when I was at work? Am I expected to chain up my abusive child when I'm away??? No. I'm to trust that my presence/word will endure. I'm giving them free will to NOT choose poorly. However, if and/or when they do, I shall correct them.

btw, as per your comment on not being an atheist, riddle me this. Should we explore everything before coming to Christ?? Should He be the last option, in your opinion? In your world view, are we short changing ourselves if we don't do this? I'd like to hear your answer on this.

Also, you didn't answer my earlier posed question, my friend. Please do so now. Thank you, in advance..