MIA - Iraq

[Risa]

Get the fuck out of here. How many times was Rome herself conquered? a military defeat isn't the same as someone storming into rome, planting a banner on each of the seven hills and boasting 'this shit is mine'.

You make it sound like Jugurtha and his people's contributions were a drop in the bucket that were easily replaced, and not truly valued for what they were. And how is Jugurtha defeating Rome just Jugurtha going back home to take his throne, and Rome being left to be Rome. Why enter a nation and conquer it then let it go about it's business after you've kicked it's ass? What's the point in conquering if you're not going to rule over that which you conquer, if you're not going to impose your will and your stamp upon that which you conquer?

Jugurtha would have been king. The Romans didn't want a king, at that time (though they were only about a little over a half century from getting the equivalent in spite of themselves?) If the throne was all Jugurtha wanted, and Roman accomodation to go with that, why not ask the Romans to provide military assistance in taking that throne? Why antagonize your buddies by going to war with them?


And I'm not buying that Gaius Marius pulled a Rove, and set up Jugurtha the entire time only to stab him in the back. Shit happened, but that's not the same as maneuvering shit to happen from beginning to end. Why does Jugurtha make a better fallen enemy than living ally?

[Risa]

You're trying to make this dirtbag into some kind of heroic champion of the oppressed which he certainly was not. He was an amoral adventurer who thought nothing of murdering his own cousin in an attempt to usurp a throne that did not belong to him.

No. I'm taking Africa's side over Europe's.
I'm also saying he had pretty eyes. It's a
male thing; you should understand.

[Risa]

Exactly how is his cousin anymore 'legitimate' than Jugurtha, when it all comes down to it, mvscal? blood? the will of the people? control of the military? the will of Rome? the will of god? manifest destiny? because it's right?

It's B.C. That was a harem society. In a harem society, legitimacy belongs to whoever is willing to take it, even if that means killing family. The only thing that really matters is strength.

If Jugurtha had that strength, then his claim is ultimately more 'legitimate' than his cousin's, particularly if Jugurtha would have been able to hold onto that power, make most of those in power happy on both sides of the Mediterranean.

Jugurtha took on Rome and lost. He had balls for days. And pretty eyes. I don't remember how he died, exactly. I do remember the tales of the 'parade' of Jugurtha and the chains, and the respect afforded him even in chains. That wasn't just in McCollough.

But you're the historian. Go for it. Jugurtha had no right because.... (and if that answer doesn't include 'total inepitude as a ruler, warrior and leader', then it's not an answer. in my opinion). (why do you sound so personally offended, anyway?)

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Iraqi troops killed 2 U.S. soldiers

"Two California soldiers shot to death in
Iraq were murdered by Iraqi civil-defense officers patrolling with them, military investigators have found."

I thought these guys went missing? Seems like some contradiction as to the events and the time.

If they were assigned to an Iraqi unit, wouldn't their whereabouts be immediately known when the unit returned from it's patrol? Why the delay?

Something stinks, America. You are being lied to.

[JCT]

The deaths of Army Spc. Patrick R. McCaffrey Sr. and 1st Lt. Andre D. Tyson were originally attributed to an ambush during a patrol near Balad, Iraq, on June 22, 2004.




Great reading skills you have

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

The deaths of Army Spc. Patrick R. McCaffrey Sr. and 1st Lt. Andre D. Tyson were originally attributed to an ambush during a patrol near Balad, Iraq, on June 22, 2004.




Great reading skills you have

Stop splitting hairs. Who's side are you on, anyways? There's a war on. No time for "facts", and "reason".

[Risa]

he just picked up the wrong story. i wonder why this still isn't a top ten story on google, though. it was a headline on yahoo over an hour ago:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... id=2099754

U.S. Forces Recover Booby-Trapped Bodies of 2 American Soldiers Reported Captured by Insurgents


BAGHDAD, Iraq Jun 20, 2006 (AP)— The U.S. military recovered the bodies Tuesday of two missing soldiers from an area it said was rigged with explosives. An Iraqi official said the Americans were tortured and killed in a "barbaric" way.

An insurgent group claimed the new leader of al-Qaida in Iraq executed the men personally, but it offered no evidence. The U.S. military did not confirm whether the soldiers died from wounds suffered in an attack Friday or were kidnapped and later killed.

The discovery of the bodies dealt a new setback to U.S. efforts to seize the momentum against al-Qaida in Iraq after killing its leader, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, in a June 7 airstrike. Violence was unabated Tuesday, with at least 18 people killed in attacks nationwide, including a suicide bombing of a home for the elderly in the southern city of Basra.

Coalition forces spotted the American soldiers' bodies late Monday, three days after the men disappeared following an attack on their checkpoint south of the capital, the military said. But troops delayed retrieving the remains until an explosives team cleared the area after an Iraqi civilian warned them to be alert for explosive devices.

"Coalition forces had to carefully maneuver their way through numerous improvised explosive devices leading up to and around the site," the military said in a statement. "Insurgents attempting to inflict additional casualties had placed IEDs around the bodies."

Maj. Gen. William Caldwell said the bodies were found together in the vicinity of an electrical plant, which would be just a few miles from where the initial attack took place near the town of Youssifiyah in the volatile Sunni Triangle south of Baghdad.

Caldwell said the remains were believed to be those of Pfc. Kristian Menchaca, 23, of Houston, and Pfc. Thomas L. Tucker, 25, of Madras, Ore. The bodies will be flown from Kuwait to Dover Air Force Base in Delaware for positive identification through autopsies and DNA testing.

Menchaca's cousin Sylvia Grice said the soldier visited relatives in Texas last month but didn't talk much about the war.

"He wanted to go out and visit his friends," she said. "He wanted to eat a hamburger. He didn't want to sit down and talk about what was going on. But he was very proud of serving his country and he believed in what he was doing."

The director of the Iraqi Defense Ministry's operation room, Maj. Gen. Abdul-Aziz Mohammed, said the bodies showed signs of having been tortured. "With great regret, they were killed in a barbaric way," he said.

The two soldiers disappeared after an insurgent attack at a checkpoint by a Euphrates River canal, 12 miles south of Baghdad. Spc. David J. Babineau, 25, of Springfield, Mass., was killed in the attack. The three men were assigned to the 1st Battalion, 502nd Infantry Regiment, 2nd Brigade, 101st Airborne Division from Fort Campbell, Ky.

Caldwell said only a single vehicle carrying the three U.S. soldiers was attacked. A witness has said two other Humvees were in the area and went after the assailants, while seven masked gunmen ambushed the third Humvee.

Some 8,000 Iraqi and U.S. troops searched for the missing soldiers. One U.S. soldier died and 12 were wounded during the search, Caldwell said, adding that coalition troops killed two insurgents and detained 78. The troops received 66 tips, 18 of which were considered worthy of follow up.

The Mujahedeen Shura Council, an umbrella organization of five insurgent groups led by al-Qaida in Iraq, posted an Internet statement Monday claiming it was holding the American soldiers captive and that "we shall give you more details about the incident in the next few days, God willing."

On Tuesday, after Iraqi officials disclosed that the bodies were found, the Shura Council posted another Web statement, saying al-Zarqawi's successor had "slaughtered" the soldiers. The language in the statement, which could not be authenticated, suggested the group was saying the men were beheaded.

"With God Almighty's blessing, Abu Hamza al-Muhajer carried out the verdict of the Islamic court" calling for the soldiers' slaying, the statement said.

The U.S. military has identified al-Muhajer as an Egyptian associate of al-Zarqawi also known as Abu Ayyub al-Masri. If confirmed, the killings would be the first acts of violence attributed to al-Muhajer since he was named the new leader of al-Qaida in Iraq in a June 12 Web message by the group.

Al-Zarqawi made al-Qaida in Iraq notorious for beheadings and was believed to have killed two American captives himself Nicholas Berg in April 2004 and Eugene Armstrong in September 2004. A dozen Americans are still missing in Iraq, Caldwell said.

Just hours before Tucker and Menchaca disappeared Friday, a U.S. airstrike killed a key al-Qaida in Iraq leader described as the group's "religious emir," Caldwell said.

Mansour Suleiman Mansour Khalifi al-Mashhadani, or Sheik Mansour, died along with two foreign fighters in the same area where the soldiers' bodies were found. The three were trying to flee in a vehicle.

Al-Mashhadani, identified as an Iraqi in his late 30s, was "a key leader of al-Qaida in Iraq, with excellent religious, military and leadership credentials" and tied to the senior leadership, including al-Zarqawi and his alleged replacement, Caldwell said.

U.S. forces captured Mansour in July 2004 because of his ties to the militant groups Ansar al-Islam and Ansar al-Sunna, but the military let him go because he was not deemed an important terror figure at the time.

Tuesday's violence across Iraq included at least three bombs striking Baghdad despite a security crackdown launched nearly a week ago.

In the bombing of the home for the elderly, an 18-year-old Sunni wearing an explosives belt blew himself up as senior citizens were lined up to collect monthly pensions. Two elderly women were killed and three people were wounded.

Police said the motive was unclear, but sectarian tensions have been worsening in the predominantly Shiite city of Basra.


Associated Press writers Patrick Quinn in Baghdad, Ryan Lenz in Balad, and Nadia Abou el-Magd in Cairo, Egypt, contributed to this report.


Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

[LTS TRN 2]

Can anyone doubt his expertise? His patriotism? His basic honesty?

Certainly. I would also add his sanity to the list.

Really, bab's..? You're ready to question Jack Murtha's expertise in military affairs? A highly decorated twenty-five year Marine colonel?

Bring it. Or, what, have you nothing more than your typical snips and evasions ("dipshit" ---oh, quality stuff)?

You're ready to question Murtha's patriotism? A staunch supporter of U.S. military policy from the democratic side for, what, twenty years?

Bring it. What exactly have you got?

And his sanity? Really? You're doubting his sanity because his experience tells him we're in a no-win quagmire? Have you even a tiny percentage of his fully explicated argument backing up his calls for getting the fuck out of Iraq?

What DO you have? Bring it or shut the fuck up, because time and time again you offer seemingly strong opinions--with nothing to back them up. Much in the manner of Rove and Rusp Limpdick.

[poptart]

His patriotism and honesty can be found in the shitter, and any 'expertise' he has is hopelessly trumped by his goofy political motivations.

In short, go fuck yourself, asshead.

[Risa]

His patriotism and honesty can be found in the shitter, and any 'expertise' he has is hopelessly trumped by his goofy political motivations.

Except Murtha was right about the war, and all he got for his efforts was called treasonous for daring to utter a bad word about Dear Leader.

Murtha has courage to stand up to the Cultists. Don't have to agree with him to acknowledge that he's a helluva lot more convictionful leader than the Kennedys, Lieberman, Kerry or (this is shameful) the Clintons.

[LTS TRN 2]

What the fuck do you know about it?

Excuse me midget? Although I have never been in war, I do know that we are not using our military to the fullest capability and that if we did, this war would be over sooner rather than later.

So, despite never having served a day of your life in any capacity whatsoever, we are to believe that you better know how to manage the war than the officers and men who are actually over there fighting it.

Is that accurate? Get back to me when you have enlisted, you worthless shit-stained scab.

Hey, bab's, guess who else has never served a single day in the military?

--Dick Cheney

--George W. Bush (yea, bring the National Guard bullshit, I dare you!)

--Condi Rice

--Donald Rumsfeld

--J.Paul Bremer

--Paul Wolfowitz

--George Tenet

--Richard Perle

--Irv Kristol

--John AND Josh Bolton

--Charles Krautenhammer

--Karl Rove

--Scooter Libby

--John Negroponte

--John Snow

--Donald Feith

--Elliot Abrams

--David Brooks


In short, ALL of the people who have intiated this military disaster are CHICKENHAWKS!!


What the fuck have you got? You're left making tiny bitch snips against an actual decorated Marine Colonel like Jack Murtha?

And your argument is...what?

For what it's worth, SCOREBOARD on bab's and his Rovian spewage. :wink:

[LTS TRN 2]

Front and center, bitch (mscval loves to run and hide after having his ass nailed to the wall. Not this time)


Explain why all these CHICKENHAWKS should be trusted, especially given their uninterrupted record of failure and incompetence.

[Smackie Chan]

Dubya flew jets in the National Guard

And the citizens of Alabama owe him undying gratitude for defending their great state against the Viet Cong.

[Tom In VA]

Dubya flew jets in the National Guard

And the citizens of the southeast and southcentral U.S. owe him undying gratitude for defending their great state against the Soviet Union.

FTFY and yes, it was where he was ordered to go.

[Smackie Chan]

Dubya flew jets in the National Guard

And the citizens of the southeast and southcentral U.S. owe him undying gratitude for defending their great state against the Soviet Union.

FTFY and yes, it was where he was ordered to go.

I guess that's one way of looking at it.

Bush asked for permission to go to Alabama to work on a Senate campaign. His superior officers said OK.

This is from Byron York of The Hill, hardly a left-winger.

[Bizzarofelice]

He has never attempted to represent his service as anything more than it was... a way out of Vietnam.

You have swallowed a lot of spinjuice.

[Bizzarofelice]

Flying jets wasn't a very good way of "getting out of Vietnam".

The fuck it wasn't.

Going AWOL was even better, even though the Cheerleader-in-Chief had no risk of going overseas.

In some ways this is almost irrelevant. The core issue is that George W. Bush, who campaigned eagerly for Republican pro-war candidates, joined the National Guard, ticking the box to refuse overseas service, at the height of the Tet Offensive, in what Senator Robert Byrd has called the "War of His Generation."

He did so with the aid of nepotistic influence, jumping a long line, despite a 25 percent score on his pilot aptitude test--and despite a series of driving convictions that should have required a special waiver. He was commissioned an officer despite having no pilot experience, no time in the ROTC, and without attending Officer Training School.

[Bizzarofelice]

In some ways this is almost irrelevant. The core issue is that George W. Bush, who campaigned eagerly for Republican pro-war candidates, joined the National Guard, ticking the box to refuse overseas service, at the height of the Tet Offensive."

He did so with the aid of nepotistic influence, jumping a long line, despite a 25 percent score on his pilot aptitude test--and despite a series of driving convictions that should have required a special waiver. He was commissioned an officer despite having no pilot experience, no time in the ROTC, and without attending Officer Training School.

I took out the Robert Byrd part. Have anything else you'd like to try in defending the chickenhawk? Anymore sad spin attempts? Jingle your keys?

[Smackie Chan]

Bush asked for permission to go to Alabama to work on a Senate campaign. His superior officers said OK.

This is from Byron York of The Hill, hardly a left-winger.

The aircraft he was qualified on was being phased out of the active duty air force. What that means for the ANG is a glut of far more experienced pilots. So for a junior officer with no intentions of pursuing a military career, it was very easy to get out.

He has never attempted to represent his service as anything more than it was.

I get that ... an easy way out was available, and he took advantage of it. I have no problem with that, and realize he hasn't tried to inflate his service record. It is what it is. Just wanted to clarify what Tom alleged, which is technically true. He was ordered to serve in 'Bama, but it was the granting of a request. Chances are, given the circumstances at the time (jet being phased out of service, glut of pilots, war winding down), he prolly woulda been kept stateside anyway, without having to request it. But one can never be too careful.

[Tom In VA]

Anymore sad spin attempts

I laughed. Hypocrisy at it's boldest and dimmest.

[Bizzarofelice]

Hypocrisy

Explain.

[Tom In VA]

This is from Byron York of The Hill, hardly a left-winger.

The aircraft he was qualified on was being phased out of the active duty air force. What that means for the ANG is a glut of far more experienced pilots. So for a junior officer with no intentions of pursuing a military career, it was very easy to get out.

He has never attempted to represent his service as anything more than it was.

.....Just wanted to clarify what Tom alleged, which is technically true. He was ordered to ....

Patrol the U.S. You mocked his flying patrol over the U.S. Mvscal addressed that already.

As for the Alabama assignment, would you have rather he petitioned for an assignment as ....... what ....

What kind of assignment would have given him the opportunity to receive your respect ?

[Tom In VA]

As for the Alabama assignment, would you have rather he petitioned for an assignment as ....... what ....

What kind of assignment would have given him the opportunity to receive your respect ?

Maybe one where he actually showed up for duty?

He didn't fly the hours he was supposed to fly ?

[Tom In VA]

Hypocrisy

Explain.

You spin, I spin, we all regurgitate o-pin-yin.

[Smackie Chan]

As for the Alabama assignment, would you have rather he petitioned for an assignment as ....... what ....

Oh, I dunno. Combat duty in Southeast Asia? Not that he would've gotten the assignment, given the circumstances I already mentioned. But it would've made for a better bio, and perhaps given him more credibility when it comes to sending troops into combat as CiC. Yeah, I know, his credibility (and bio) isn't the issue here. But falling in line behind a "leader" who has demonstrated a willingness to fight for his country (as opposed to flying stateside patrol missions when countrymen are dying overseas) is far more palatable than following one who seems to have done whatever he could to avoid such duty.

[Bizzarofelice]

got bored and took an early out. Big fucking deal.

Usually junior officers deciding to take an early out without alerting their superior officers is a big deal. Some may call it "executive decisions" but people of Dubya's rank at the time don't make "ain't gunna show up no mo'" decisions.



RE: spin. Obviously, HBJ, there's a difference between weighing facts and valuing them differently, and trying to polish a turd.

[Tom In VA]

As for the Alabama assignment, would you have rather he petitioned for an assignment as ....... what ....

Oh, I dunno. Combat duty in Southeast Asia? Not that he would've gotten the assignment, given the circumstances I already mentioned. But it would've made for a better bio, and perhaps given him more credibility when it comes to sending troops into combat as CiC. Yeah, I know, his credibility (and bio) isn't the issue here. But falling in line behind a "leader" who has demonstrated a willingness to fight for his country (as opposed to flying stateside patrol missions when countrymen are dying overseas) is far more palatable than following one who seems to have done whatever he could to avoid such duty.

Sounds as if you're treading on the ground whereas a U.S. President candidate MUST have prior experience in combat then, in order to be President.

It'd be interesting to find out how many presidents who have had to send men off to kill and die, have themselves, done so.

Care to start off the list ?

[Smackie Chan]

Maybe one where he actually showed up for duty?

His "duty" consisted of occasionally dropping by the orderly room for a cup of coffee and a brief perusal of training manuals.

A duty which was completed as his records quite clearly indicate.

He did more than that. Just to show y'all that I'm not simply a Bush basher, but one who seeks to expose the truth:

The future president joined the Guard in May 1968. Almost immediately, he began an extended period of training. Six weeks of basic training. Fifty-three weeks of flight training. Twenty-one weeks of fighter-interceptor training.

That was 80 weeks to begin with, and there were other training periods thrown in as well. It was full-time work. By the time it was over, Bush had served nearly two years.

Not two years of weekends. Two years.

After training, Bush kept flying, racking up hundreds of hours in F-102 jets. As he did, he accumulated points toward his National Guard service requirements. At the time, guardsmen were required to accumulate a minimum of 50 points to meet their yearly obligation.

According to records released earlier this year, Bush earned 253 points in his first year, May 1968 to May 1969 (since he joined in May 1968, his service thereafter was measured on a May-to-May basis).

Bush earned 340 points in 1969-1970. He earned 137 points in 1970-1971. And he earned 112 points in 1971-1972. The numbers indicate that in his first four years, Bush not only showed up, he showed up a lot.

[Tom In VA]

RE: spin. Obviously, HBJ, there's a difference between weighing facts and valuing them differently, and trying to polish a turd.

All boils down to a subjective decision taken as to how to perceive an argument. You throw out just as much spin and yet sometimes your only retort is "that's spin". I find that hypocritical.

Same with "Talking Points", you act as if the retorts you contribute

a) Aren't a part of some larger agenda and come from outside yourself
b) Aren't "Talking Points" used to further drive home that agenda. Which is .... "Don't vote Republican" in the next election, in a nutshell.

[Smackie Chan]

Nobody seemed to have much problem falling in line behind the polio stricken, FDR just to name one of many examples.

Horseshit is trying to equate requesting a stateside assignment during wartime with being stricken with polio. I'm sure that's why FDR became infected - to avoid combat duty.

I never said anything about military duty being a requirement. It just makes for better reading.

[Bizzarofelice]

RE: spin. Obviously, HBJ, there's a difference between weighing facts and valuing them differently, and trying to polish a turd.

All boils down to a subjective decision taken as to how to perceive an argument. You throw out just as much spin and yet sometimes your only retort is "that's spin". I find that hypocritical.

Go back to the where you quoted me. I had a long list of things questioning Bush's service in the military, and mvscal only commented on Robert Byrd's early days as a klansmen. That's what I'm talking about.


As for "talking points" I drag that comment out when someone here happens to drag out the same shit the talking heads are rehashing this week. Right now, the "New York Times leak" stuff is considered talking points. When Condi, Bartlett, Cheney and Dubya are all saying the exact same thing, (even though the Banking info was released much earlier in public hearings) I consider that talking points. It often denotes a person less interested in formulating an opinion than piling on with brethren. AP's rant earlier was all over the place and an excellent example of someone not relying on the talking points.

[Eaglebauer]

But falling in line behind a "leader" who has demonstrated a willingness to fight for his country (as opposed to flying stateside patrol missions when countrymen are dying overseas) is far more palatable than following one who seems to have done whatever he could to avoid such duty.

That is nothing but pure partisan political horseshit.

Wasn't Clinton's 'draft dodging' a major concern of Republicans not so long ago?

[Eaglebauer]

Is that not pure partisan political horseshit?

Exactly. And we all KNOW that at the time you were parroting that exact same horseshit. That's the whole point. Thanks.

[Eaglebauer]

Link?

That's great there. I can imagine you saying this to your wife when she tells you you have a small pecker.

Except it doesn't work there, either. She knows you're full of shit, too.

[Smackie Chan]

BeagleBlower

Laughing goin' on over here.

[Eaglebauer]

Your attempts at humor

It wasn't a joke

I can't give a shit about Clinton's alleged draft dodging because of W.

fixed.



Next.

[Tom In VA]

But falling in line behind a "leader" who has demonstrated a willingness to fight for his country (as opposed to flying stateside patrol missions when countrymen are dying overseas) is far more palatable than following one who seems to have done whatever he could to avoid such duty.

That is nothing but pure partisan political horseshit.

Wasn't Clinton's 'draft dodging' a major concern of Republicans not so long ago?

If I remember correctly, it wasn't so much the dodging of the draft as much as it was how he did it. An alleged letter in which he states his "loathing" of the military and "everything it stands for" or something, and lastly this trip to the Soviet Union, who .... for those with history disorder were training down missiles and bomber squadrons on the U.S. at the time.

But muckracking is muckracking and is less than desirable.

[Eaglebauer]

That is nothing but pure partisan political horseshit.

Wasn't Clinton's 'draft dodging' a major concern of Republicans not so long ago?

If I remember correctly, it wasn't so much the dodging of the draft as much as it was how he did it.

You really believe your own bullshit?

[Tom In VA]

Wasn't Clinton's 'draft dodging' a major concern of Republicans not so long ago?

If I remember correctly, it wasn't so much the dodging of the draft as much as it was how he did it.

You really believe your own bullshit?

I believe that you're not interested in having a rational discussion, troool.

[Eaglebauer]

Your attempts at humor

It wasn't a joke

I can't give a shit about Clinton's alleged draft dodging because of W.

fixed.



Next.

That's quite a "zinger". I suppose it was the best you could muster while sailing through the goalposts again, though.

You're obviously fucking melting.

Perhaps I shoulda just resorted to the ole tried-and-true--

"Think again, dumbfuck."