another take on education

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Ang
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another take on education

Post by Ang »

Just another view on the educational system, this time by a valedictorian who was yanked off the stage by his principal. The reason that I’m posting this is that there have been some good discussions here on education, and I think this is a neat window into the mind of a young man who decided that the podium granted to him as a valedictorian was a time to have his say. Personally, I think he sounds a bit like he needed to get laid more often in high school, or spend time with Mr. Miagi doing "wax on, wax off" so he wouldn't have so much time on his hands to ponder all this stuff...but I found what he says is very much what I hear from kids I know of the same age who are interested in learning and even have part time jobs and social lives.

I found this on metafilter, which I think is one of the good sites to find things that are not politically based…just everything out there. This is a speech by a valedictorian who was swooshed off the podium by the principal (thus, the “god help me” at the end of it). Afterwards the principal made a statement to the effect that he hoped the other grads did not hear or understand what the speaker was saying. What a wish from a high school principal :shock: …basically,”I hope they either weren’t listening or didn’t have the capability to understand it”.

The link below is to the original report of the speech and is kind of iffy because it may show up as needing a registration to the original site, so that’s why I posted the text of the speech. Weird thing is, if you don’t put any info in to register and then hit login, you get rejected…then if you just hit the back button you get the link. So much for registration and security :)

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news ... 2027c.html

Comments concerning it all are interesting to read…all 123 of them, and they are available directly on metafilter without registration. A lot of discussion on all sides about what public education is all about. The link to the comments is

http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/52772

Speech of the Student
Published: Thursday, June 22, 2006
Updated: Thursday, June 22, 2006

Four years ago, we gathered here for an education. Today marks a milestone in that pursuit, a culmination of four years of learning, growth and shared memories. At such times, it is appropriate to reflect on years past, to examine what we have done and what we have learned. Today I am charged with that difficult task, and I would like to thank the school for the opportunity to stand before my peers and reflect on our time together.

Education can be defined a number of different ways. For me, it is the product of human curiosity. Intellectual thought, as far as I can tell, is nothing but the asking and answering of questions. In my reflection, however, and I have reflected on this a great deal, I found that many of life’s most important questions are ignored here. What is the right way to live? What is the ideal society? What principles should guide my behavior? What is success, what is failure? Is there a creator, and if so, should we look to it for guidance? These are often dismissed as questions of religion, but religion is not something opposed to rationality, it simply seeks to answer such questions through faith. The separation of church and state is, of course, important, but it should never be a reason for intellectual submission or suppression of any kind. Ethics — it is what defines us — as individuals, as a society — and yet it is never discussed, never explained, never justified. Rousseau, Descartes, Plato, Aristotle, Kant, Aquinas, nearly every major writer I’ve encountered devotes time to the subject. And it’s not as if these questions are without practical concern, that they are less immediately relevant than science for instance. Our laws, our institutions and all our actions are a reflection of our ethics. Our own society owes itself to the writers of the enlightenment, but we never probe their work — we fail to espouse the movement’s central principle, doubt — doubt everything. We study what is, never why, never what should be. For that reason, the education we have received here is not only incomplete, it is entirely hollow.
What’s more, this same lack of focus can be found in many of the subjects we do study. We approach history as though it were a story, endlessly cataloging every major character or event. But the details of that story are insignificant — what is significant is the progression of ideas. A study of history should get some sense of how the society he sees around him developed from those built thousands of years ago, what ideas changed and what changed them. When humanist scholars looked into ancient Rome during the Renaissance, they searched for moral examples, for ideas. They didn’t mull on every single daily event. They were inspired, and they transformed society. History is not an end in itself; it should act as a tool for greater thought.

But it’s not only history. I’ve taken a literature class nearly every year of my life, but never has a question so basic as “What is good writing?” come up. Literary technique, what should be the focus of the class, is never discussed. How does an author develop plot? How can an author control mood or tone in his writing? What is the advantage of one author’s methods over another’s? Such matters are never discussed. We read for the sake of reading, to talk about our interpretations in class as though we were in a book club. But no attention is paid to why we read the books we do, what makes them so special. And this pattern, grade for the sake of a grade, work for the sake of work, can be found everywhere. Ladies and gentlemen, the spirit of intellectual thought is lost. I speak today not to rant, complain or cause trouble, and certainly not to draw attention to myself. I have accomplished nothing and I am nothing. I know that.

Rather, I was moved by the countless hours wasted in those halls. Today, you should focus on your child or loved one. This is meant to be a day of celebration, and if I’ve taken away from that, I’m sorry. But I know how highly this community values learning, and I urge you all to re-evaluate what it means to be educated. I care deeply about everyone here, and it is only our fulfillment I desire. I will leave now so that the ceremony can go on. Again, my deepest apologies, God help me.
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Post by poptart »

Kid said: For that reason, the education we have received here is not only incomplete, it is entirely hollow.

:meds:


He was yanked off the stage .... ?

So nobody 'in charge' gave his speech a quick read before he was allowed to take the podium ... ?

The valedictorian is allowed to have his views, certainly, but the graduation ceremony is not the time or place to go off on a rant about the supposed shortcomings of the school's education.

The graduation ceremony is a TIME TO HONOR students, and perhaps offer some appreciation for the opportunities that DID come your way.

This kid needed to simply write a letter detailing his misgivings, and give it to teachers, principals and administrators.

Or ...... meet with some of them to express himself.

If he's such a sharpie then they'd welcome sitting down to discuss 'educational philosophy' with him, right .... ?

He may have some vaild points and concerns, but he was out of bounds in thinking he should get up in front of a captive audience and talk about how the education he received was "hollow and incomplete."

The kid's a freaking yerk off.
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Post by BSmack »

Both the kid and Poptart are wrong. He's wrong to think he is qualified to speak to the subject of teaching methodologies. And Tart is wrong to think he should write a letter to the principal. Because we all know that no matter how well written that letter was, it would have found its way to the circular file.
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Post by poptart »

Ok.

What about you .... ?

If you were the principal and valedictorian gave you a letter to read would you toss it .... ?
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Post by BSmack »

poptart wrote:Ok.

What about you .... ?

If you were the principal and valedictorian gave you a letter to read would you toss it .... ?
The principal has no authority to change the curriculum or to mandate any changes in teaching techniques. Sending the principal a letter of that nature is like sending a letter to a platoon leader in Iraq asking him to end the war.

So yea, I'd toss it.
"Once upon a time, dinosaurs didn't have families. They lived in the woods and ate their children. It was a golden age."

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Post by Mike the Lab Rat »

What the kid doesn't seem to realize is that there's a mystical, magical land in which the deep philosophical issues he wanted discussed ARE brought up, analyzed, etc.

It's called "college."

For a smarmy little 17 (or maybe eighteen)-year-old to presume that he fully comprehends what goes into choosing curriculum, assessment, methods of meeting standards...all while dealing with his fellow students who -for various reasons- are unable or unwilling to do anything to meet the bare minimum, is the height of hubris on his part.

I absolutely guarantee that this kid in no way speaks for the majority of his classmates. A lot of his peers across the country are busy copying each other's homework, trying to use their cell phones to send pics of exams to each other, plagiarizing resarch for papers from the 'net, obsessing over the opposite sex, obsessing over myspace, figuring out where the good parties will be this weekend...being typical American teens.

Sure, he is obviously one of those children more academically gifted and inquisitive than most of his peers and he feels shortchanged in that HIS questions weren't addressed in the manner HE wished. Tough shit. The fact is that the other couple dozen kids in each of his classes were busy doing as little as possible to get that "A," "B," or "C." Some of his peers have issues at home that they can't control and the teachers and administrators are overwhelmed trying to help his pregnant classmate, the anorexic/bulimic classmate, the abused classmate, the non-English-speaking classmate, the self-mutilating Goth classmate....

This pouty little spoiled brat is obviously bright enough to compose an eloquent tirade - why the hell couldn't he have directed his energies to a library or bookstore and [gasp] learn on his own? Or was this self-absorbed brat so wrapped up in his own sense of entitlement that he honestly believed that it was someone else's job to spoon feed the enlightenment to him?

Oh, and it's pretty much standard practice for valedictorians and salutatorians to have to have their speeches pre-approved by the administration. I had to have mine approved 23 years ago. Deviating from that speech fully entitles administrators to yank the speechmaker from the podium.
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Post by Mike the Lab Rat »

Another thought:

A lot of the academic stuff the kid wanted in his curriculum would be fulfilled through electives. In my high school, seniors weren't allowed to pack their schedule with study halls or fluff and were required to either complete more Regents (i.e., NYS Dept of Ed courses that had state exam) courses or various electives. I took AP Bio, a course on 18th-century American history, a philosophy elective, an English course on Romanticism, and an independent study English course on "negativism in American literature" (Twain, O'Connor, Shirley Jackson). Some were just a semester, some were full year. They made damned sure that graduating seniors hit college running...

The problem with electives, however, is that they have to have enrollments that justify the expense of books, supplies, teacher time. School boards understandably question the expenditure of a class supply of books by Locke, Rousseau, Hume, etc. if only a handful of kids sign up for the course. My AP Bio budget gets scrutinized big time, especially when parents of our "less bright bulbs" wonder why we're offering more options for kids "who would succeed anyway." I don't envy those poor folks trying to do the right thing while dealing with incredibly tight budgets, education law, and various parent interests...

Additionally, there's actually a whole movement in the ivory towers of educational academia in which some professors argue that programs for the gifted are just "making the rich richer" and "stealing from those who truly need it." These insulated leftists fail to see that gifted kids also deserve to be challenged. Some of my own colleagues right now have been quite vocally opposed to the expansion of AP courses in our district for the aforementioned idiotic reasons.
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Post by Mister Bushice »

What the kid doesn't seem to realize is that there's a mystical, magical land in which the deep philosophical issues he wanted discussed ARE brought up, analyzed, etc.

It's called "college."
Exactly.

My question - Where were the kids parents in all of this? I wouldn't ever let a kid of mine give a speech of that magnitude (age level wise) without him/her running it by me or some other qualified person.

Just plain stupid
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Post by BSmack »

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:I took AP Bio, a course on 18th-century American history, a philosophy elective, an English course on Romanticism, and an independent study English course on "negativism in American literature" (Twain, O'Connor, Shirley Jackson).
This goes a long way towards explaining some of our drunken conversations during the mid 80s. ;)

Bushice,

I'm sure the speech he gave was not the speech he showed his parents and school officials beforehand.
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Post by Terry in Crapchester »

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:Another thought:

A lot of the academic stuff the kid wanted in his curriculum would be fulfilled through electives. In my high school, seniors weren't allowed to pack their schedule with study halls or fluff and were required to either complete more Regents (i.e., NYS Dept of Ed courses that had state exam) courses or various electives. I took AP Bio, a course on 18th-century American history, a philosophy elective, an English course on Romanticism, and an independent study English course on "negativism in American literature" (Twain, O'Connor, Shirley Jackson). Some were just a semester, some were full year. They made damned sure that graduating seniors hit college running...
I went to a Catholic school and during my senior year I took four courses leading up to AP exams: AP Calculus, AP English, AP American History and Spanish IV. The only course I passed on was Physics, although that was only a Regents, not an AP.

I also took (in addition to Religion, which my school required) two single semester electives: Personal Typing and Computer Science. The Personal Typing course, although a "fluff" course, probably was the single most practical course I ever took in high school, as I had no idea how to type before that.
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Post by Mister Bushice »

BSmack wrote: Bushice,

I'm sure the speech he gave was not the speech he showed his parents and school officials beforehand.
Well considering that he's valedictorian and he doesn't comprehend that there just might possibly be a diff between HS and college curriculum, maybe he's more on target with the school not teaching them well enough after all.

During our freshman year it was pounded into our heads that what we were learning, HOW we were learning was for college prep, and that each year it would get harder. It did. A lot of it was rote learning, but it prepared us well for college.

I imagine this kid got beat up a lot in the boys bathroom, complaining that he wanted school to be harder.

If he had his way curriculum wise, half his class wouldn't have graduated.
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Post by Mikey »

Double RACK the Lab Rat.


I don't know where this kid is coming from, but either he's not paying attention in class, he's in a really shitty school, or maybe he's not taking any of the advanced courses. It seems like these days, though, you'd have to be taking AP courses to be valedictorian.
I’ve taken a literature class nearly every year of my life, but never has a question so basic as “What is good writing?” come up. Literary technique, what should be the focus of the class, is never discussed. How does an author develop plot? How can an author control mood or tone in his writing? What is the advantage of one author’s methods over another’s? Such matters are never discussed. We read for the sake of reading, to talk about our interpretations in class as though we were in a book club. But no attention is paid to why we read the books we do, what makes them so special. And this pattern, grade for the sake of a grade, work for the sake of work, can be found everywhere.
Our HS is not the best in the world, but not the worst either. There are definitely some shortcomings but there are also some really good teachers. My daughter will be a senior this year and has taken mostly AP or AP track courses. In the literature classes she has been in they cover all of these things that the guy is bitching about. The reading lists are chosen to expose all of the questions he's asking. If he got as little out of his HS education as he claims he did then I just really feel sorry for him. And for his parents' sake (unless they are just like him) I hope he gets accepted somewhere far from home.
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Post by Mike the Lab Rat »

Mister Bushice wrote:I imagine this kid got beat up a lot in the boys bathroom, complaining that he wanted school to be harder.
Especially if he is half the whiney little bitch that his speech seems to indicate he is...
Mister Bushice wrote:If he had his way curriculum wise, half his class wouldn't have graduated.
Probably spot on. He's the kind of kid who doubtless believes himself entitled to anything he gets and more by virtue of his mere existence on our lowly planet, sort of an academic Veruca Salt.

I find it interesting that there's no one defending this kid. Maybe all of us here have lost touch with that youthful idealism, hunger for knowledge, righteous anger...or maybe we recognize an ungrateful, spoiled little brat when we read about him.
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Post by Mike the Lab Rat »

Mikey wrote:And for his parents' sake (unless they are just like him) I hope he gets accepted somewhere far from home.
Great point.

Can you just imagine what this kid is going to be like when he actually is given the challenging coursework and piles of reading for which he claims to be thirsting? I'm guessing that the smug look of satisfaction will be replaced with an "oh crap.....I'm expected to do 2 hours of work ON MY OWN OUTSIDE OF CLASS for EACH hour inside class?!?!?"

Then he'll call home and whine.

Then he'll get a humanities degree and wind up being the bitter dude behind the register at Borders.
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Post by BSmack »

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:I find it interesting that there's no one defending this kid. Maybe all of us here have lost touch with that youthful idealism, hunger for knowledge, righteous anger...or maybe we recognize an ungrateful, spoiled little brat when we read about him.
Probably a little of both.
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Post by Mister Bushice »

What the principal said:
Blake noted that the very education system Elnahal criticized helped him get into Princeton University.
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Post by BSmack »

Mister Bushice wrote:What the principal said:
Blake noted that the very education system Elnahal criticized helped him get into Princeton University.
That is an emotionally effective yet fallacious argument that totally discounts the role of the student in gaining admission to Princeton. I disagree with that statement as much as I do with Elnahal's speech.
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Post by Mister Bushice »

What did he do Bsmack - learn how to take and score well on the SATs at the public library? Meet the Entrance exam requirements to princeton via home study?
If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator." —GWB Washington, D.C., Dec. 19, 2000
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Post by BSmack »

Mister Bushice wrote:What did he do Bsmack - learn how to take and score well on the SATs at the public library? Meet the Entrance exam requirements to princeton via home study?
No, he worked his ass off. Pointing to the school valedictorian's acceptance to Princeton is not a valid defense of the school curriculum. It is what is known as argument by selective observation as it ignores the outcomes of the other 500 or so students in his class.
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Post by Mister Bushice »

Worked his ass off? And you know that how?

That sounds to me like argument by selective observation. :)


But back to the point. If 500 kids graduated from a school that was ranked 403rd among 1200 top national schools (from a newsweek report) and has won national awards for education, and if Princeton uses NEA and National College exam board guidelines as terms for acceptance, it's not that great a leap to assume the school had a hand in preparing the kids for college. Besides, that article didn't really get to the meat of his argument, which is religion and faith( a shocker, I know)
Elnahal told Cybercast News Service that teachers refused to discuss certain topics because they were too closely tied to religious views. In his valedictory speech, he argued that there is a connection between a person's faith and that person's power of reasoning.
If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator." —GWB Washington, D.C., Dec. 19, 2000
Martyred wrote: Hang in there, Whitey. Smart people are on their way with dictionaries.
War Wagon wrote:being as how I've got "stupid" draped all over, I'm not really sure.
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Post by BSmack »

Mister Bushice wrote:Worked his ass off? And you know that how?

That sounds to me like argument by selective observation. :)
Well, it was either that or he's related to the Bush family.
But back to the point. If 500 kids graduated from a school that was ranked 403rd among 1200 top national schools (from a newsweek report) and has won national awards for education, and if Princeton uses NEA and National College exam board guidelines as terms for acceptance, it's not that great a leap to assume the school had a hand in preparing the kids for college.
Is there a point in there? So what if 500 kids graduated? The question being asked is "is they learning". And that cannot be validated by your valedictorian's acceptance to Princeton.
Besides, that article didn't really get to the meat of his argument, which is religion and faith( a shocker, I know)
Elnahal told Cybercast News Service that teachers refused to discuss certain topics because they were too closely tied to religious views. In his valedictory speech, he argued that there is a connection between a person's faith and that person's power of reasoning.
So the kid's a Christer? What does that have to do with the principal's argument?
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Post by Mike the Lab Rat »

The REST of the kid's quote regarding religious views:
Is there a creator? And if so, should we look to it for guidance," Elnahal asked the audience gathered at the high school graduation ceremony. "These are often dismissed as questions of religion, but religion is not something opposed to rationality. It simply seeks to answer such questions through faith."
Right there the kid showed his true colors - he is one of those who incorrectly believes that the discussion of a creator, his role in our lives, and the moral implications involved are proper discussions in a public secondary school setting.

They aren't.

They are appropriate for home schooled kids, appropriate for parochial school, appropriate for college classes, but not for public high school curriculum.

What's more, he obviously believes that his school's "failure" lies in refusing to engage in RELIGIOUS discussions. The failure lies not with the school district but with his family, who have the SOLE responsibility for getting the kid the religious education. If he's got an ache in his heart for spiritual fulfillment, he should have spoken with his folks and his pastor/minister/priest, instead of whining that taxpayers should fund his spiritual quest.
Elnahal said the reaction to his speech from fellow students was the most dramatic development on the night of June 20. "I think the story really is not me or what I said but what the reaction was. If you were there you would have seen the kids stand up and clap," he told Cybercast News Service.
Gee whiz, a student gives a speech before his peers that criticizes their school and...[GASP!]...the kids clap. The kid is so enamored of himself that he doesn't realize that his peers didn't give a rat's ass about the specific of his arguments - they would have been equally enthusiastic if he had just raised a fist in the air and yelled "THIS PLACE SUCKS!" He was being a little rebel and his peers dug it. That's it.
For some reason, I don't know if for the same reason, I think they were all disappointed in some way or unfulfilled and I think that's what the school should be thinking about."
"Unfulfilled?!?!" Oh cry me a fucking river. With every quote, this kid shows himself to be a self-absorbed, pretentious little spoiled brat with an inflated sense of his own intellect and an undeserved sense of entitlement. Like mvs said, his type are a dime a dozen. The only reason this has made some news is because there's not much going on and it masquerades as "human interest."
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Post by Cicero »

Shocking, but I kind of have to agree w/ what the kid said, but I dont agree w/ the forum in which he used to communicate his thoughts. There is a time and place, but a HS graduation isnt one of them.

That kid reminds me of some of the students I went to school w/ at the International Baccalaureate Program. Dorky and introverted yes, but smart and definitely thought outside the box.
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Post by Mike the Lab Rat »

Cicero wrote:Shocking, but I kind of have to agree w/ what the kid said, but I dont agree w/ the forum in which he used to communicate his thoughts. There is a time and place, but a HS graduation isnt one of them.

That kid reminds me of some of the students I went to school w/ at the International Baccalaureate Program. Dorky and introverted yes, but smart and definitely thought outside the box.
The kid's complaints are completely invalid. The deep, philosophical questions to which he seeks answers are properly explored in a college or parochial school setting, not in a public secondary school. For a kid who is supposedly bright, this simple fact has eluded him. Then again, my impression is of a kid who just wanted to make waves and get some attention, regardless of the validity of his arguments.

For all the whining this kid has done about his school and its curriculum, he seems oblivious to the fact that it was a big part of getting him into Princeton. Sure, he probably worked hard on his own, but the fact remains that his texts, his instruction, his assessments, etc. came from the very school he unjustly criticizes.

He has too little life experience and too little understanding of education to be taken seriously at all on his points...
THE BIBLE - Because all the works of all the science cannot equal the wisdom of cattle-sacrificing primitives who thought every animal species in the world lived within walking distance of Noah's house.
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Terry in Crapchester
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Post by Terry in Crapchester »

mvscal wrote:If he's half as smart as he thinks he is, he will soon learn how little he actually knows.
Considering the source . . .

FUNNIEST. POST. EVER.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thanks, btw. \/ \/ \/
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Ang
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Post by Ang »

When I posted this, I had some misgivings about the kid, and said so in the the post...but I still thought he had some good ideas out there for his age. My first thought was that he was kind of naive as we all were at that age, but had some good thoughts...albeit some half-assed thoughts.

One thing on the replies I want to get back on is the opinion that this kid is all about the faith...he's not. Some of this quote has been parsed to make it seem like it's all about faith...but what he really did was make it clear that when any discussion of ethics goes around, all cultures (including religions) should be included, including the religions and all the great philosophical writers.

This quote looks different, because it has the whole idea in it...

"Is there a creator, and if so, should we look to it for guidance? These are often dismissed as questions of religion, but religion is not something opposed to rationality, it simply seeks to answer such questions through faith. The separation of church and state is, of course, important, but it should never be a reason for intellectual submission or suppression of any kind. Ethics — it is what defines us — as individuals, as a society — and yet it is never discussed, never explained, never justified. Rousseau, Descartes, Plato, Aristotle, Kant, Aquinas, nearly every major writer I’ve encountered devotes time to the subject. And it’s not as if these questions are without practical concern, that they are less immediately relevant than science for instance. Our laws, our institutions and all our actions are a reflection of our ethics."

One thing that totally surprised me while reading the metafilter replies were that most folks there basically had the idea that most kids just learn what they learn at home and that the most important thing about high school is simply socialization. I've also heard that around here, that the kids that are already great will be great, the kids that need help will be left out, and the kids that are social will have a great time and not learn anything. The general idea was that anywhere your kid goes, it's always home schooling anyway.

We are in the best public school district in the state, but our kid...who has been all honor roll and AP and in several different languages decided to pull out of it this year when we moved. He had a route all ready for him to go to the public high school and be in AP science courses where he does well, be in the best band in the area, and play baseball at a good place...but decided to go to a smaller Christian school with less options because, in his words "I would rather go to a place that cares about what kids are doing there."

And good for him for realizing that is important to him. He has tons of friends around the neighborhood and they feel just fine going to the public school. If he lived here as long as they did, he probably would also. On the other hand, they understand his choices and just all get along in social ways of the teens.

Thing is...as a parent, or an educator, or even as a kid or an adult student...sometimes you don't know where the path will take you. All you have is your conviction, your ethics, and your goals. We all have those, sometimes in a good place, and sometimes misplaced as our subject valedictorian seems to have done. But we all find them, eventually :)
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Mister Bushice
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Post by Mister Bushice »

One thing that totally surprised me while reading the metafilter replies were that most folks there basically had the idea that most kids just learn what they learn at home and that the most important thing about high school is simply socialization. I've also heard that around here, that the kids that are already great will be great, the kids that need help will be left out, and the kids that are social will have a great time and not learn anything.
Isn't that all true though? Out here, public HS are dumbed down to accomodate the LCD. The kids who excel do so either because they can, or because they want to. If you have a classroom of 18-20 students that you see a few times a week multiplied by how many classrooms, it's easy to see how kids with no desire or interest get left out, and the ones who need the help won't get it because a large public HS classroom is not set up to handle that type of intervention and individual attention in the way a small private school can. The ones who want to learn get the most attention. After a teacher deals with a few years of students who really don't give a shit about the subject matter it becomes hard to find the motivation, or even the method, to get through to them, especially when you have kids in the same classroom hungry for knowledge and focused. Some teachers may be able to handle that situation, but most can't.


I chose to go to a small private school for that very reason. I knew from my older brothers and sisters that the local HS would not be suitable for me. I needed to be pushed, and no one was pushed there. It was a place to send your kids for the day, mostly. They had 8 different math class levels for freshman entry students so that those who didn't know how to handle parentheses and square roots could still pass.

Again, it all comes down to expectations. Should we expect the public HS to A: live up to small private schools standards? and B: should we be teaching ethics, spirituality, philosophy and the deeper meaning of life to HS students?

The answer to both is no. Public HS are not charged to instill the desire for learning in students, they are intended to provide an outlet, a means for students to access knowledge. Students need to bring that desire for learning with them. If they don't, or won't, that is not the schools responsibility. If they can't, it is up to the shools to provide a better means, but those are the exceptions to the rule.

As for the deeper meaning of things, it won't do students much good when they go on to college if they understand Kant but can't understand how to multiply, use a computer, or spell. A line has to be drawn somewhere, and providing a basis for students to move on to higher education is it.
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Mike the Lab Rat
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Post by Mike the Lab Rat »

Bushice is on target with a lot of stuff above.

Another thing to consider is that we've asked public schools to do too much OTHER than teach reading, writing, math, and science. Now, schools are required to provide breakfast and lunch, free counseling for all sorts of family problems, act as a community center, deal with "multiculturalism," "gender issues," "sexual identity issues," "empowerment," "self-esteem," and all sorts of home and life skills that should properly be taught in the home...except that a lot of our students' home lives are screwed up due to poverty, or generally self-absorbed parents too frigging "busy" to take time out of their precious careers to check homework, etc., or too concerned with being their kids' buddies to be frigging PARENTS.

Comparing private and public schools is comparing apples and oranges. Private schools serve families who have already placed their kids first - parents who have made the effort to investigate school choices, save up the funds to send their kids, etc. Going to a private school is not a "right," so kids can be booted out far more easily for academic or disciplinary reasons. Public schools, OTOH, in addition to all the services they are mandated to provide (listed previously) have to take all comers, regardless of student or parent motivation. I have yet to have a year without a pregnant student. Or a student with a law enforcement ankle bracelet for tracking. Or kid with an IQ below 70. Or a kid who just arrived from Puerto Rico and doesn't know more than a handful of English words. Public schools get the true cross-section of American kids, not just the kids whose folks have the parenting skills, motivation, and/or funding to send their children.
THE BIBLE - Because all the works of all the science cannot equal the wisdom of cattle-sacrificing primitives who thought every animal species in the world lived within walking distance of Noah's house.
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Ang
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Post by Ang »

Bushy and Mike,

Thanks for the well thought out replies. We have had many talks here in our house on the way to go, and most of them included the things you have brought up. No "one" right way to go (like Bushy said), and it looks like we have a way that fits our kid that we support and thankfully can afford.

And Mike, I applaud you for for what you do. I was certified a couple of years ago for secondary teaching (after 20+ years of working in spiffy design offices), and after I went for a few interviews I thought...what in the hell was I thinking? The good thing is, the principals that I interviewed with had the whole picture laid out there for me to see with all the problems you have talked about...and I just couldn't imagine teaching in it, and they couldn't either so thankfully none of them offerred me a job :). So I thank our collective lucky stars that there are people like you who actually give a shit and can work with what you do and love it and help kids along the way. Godspeed.
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