Split: Socialism, AKA Lysenko - blip, or blot?

[Dr_Phibes]

Yeah, Lysenko... Lysenko. Good stuff Mike, you've managed to discover a scientific charlatan in the history of the Soviet Union who was thrown out on his arse.
Why do you constantly bang on about him? Shall we go through the scientific achievements of the Soviet Union together? You would look quite bad, I think.

You haven't got a clue about the topic you've decided to wade into.

Shall we wager? Let's get into the negative and positive aspects of welfare (regardless of form) in a capitalist society, the contradictions and exclusions and steps toward it's eradication...

edit: Incorrect spelling. Self criticism is progressive.

[BSmack]

I'm sure an uptight, pre-Vat II Catholic like MikeTLR is willing to give it a shot.

Oh well, what can you expect from Big Government Conservative types...

I'm pretty sure that Mike is still Episcopalian. And he's about the most anti big government person around. Other than that, you're dead on.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

We certainly are not going to stuff the genie back in the bottle and revert to Victorian attitudes towards sex.

I'm sure an uptight, pre-Vat II Catholic like MikeTLR is willing to give it a shot.

.....woooooo....another swing and a miss from our resident faux socialist troll

I'm Episcopalian. You know, the denomination that pissed off a lot of other Christians by ordaining women, accepting gays (hell, we even made one a bishop!), and pretty much embracing every liberal cause under the sun.

Criminy, is there anything you are ever right about?

Oh well, what can you expect from Big Government Conservative types...

With regards to that comment, I think I'll not respond so as to obey the traffic sign below:

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

I'm pretty sure that Mike is still Episcopalian.

The guy's posts reek of Opud Dei. Could've fooled me.

Kick his ass Phibes. I know you're pumped up after the succesfull missile launch, and look looking to pick a fight.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

I'm pretty sure that Mike is still Episcopalian.

The guy's posts reek of Opud Dei. Could've fooled me.

I don't know how to break this to you, but sock puppets could fool you.

Kick his ass Phibes. I know you're pumped up after the succesfull missile launch, and look looking to pick a fight.

Wow. Everything about those last two sentences just reeks of cellblock love affair. How many cartons of cigs did he buy you for, comrade?

[Mike the Lab Rat]

Yeah, Lysenko... Lysenko. Good stuff Mike, you've managed to discover a scientific charlatan in the history of the Soviet Union who was thrown out on his arse.

You make him sound like some harmless crank. The Soviets had enough faith in him to make him the head of the Academy of Agricultural Sciences, and because of him hundreds of REAL scientists were executed, imprisoned, or (if they were lucky) expelled. For 25 frigging years the Soviets bought his crap because it fed into their warped politics. His policies set Soviet agriculture back decades...

Soviet science and biology are a frigging oxymoron.

Shall we wager? Let's get into the negative and positive aspects of welfare (regardless of form) in a capitalist society, the contradictions and exclusions and steps toward it's eradication...

"Wager?" To you and your fellow faux socialist troll, this is a fun intellectual exercise. To me, this is something I actually have seen and continue to see. To you kids, this is a fun pamplet-backed bit of coffeehouse debate. To me, this is real-world stuff - children I have helped teach and have gotten to know being seduced by the easy money and lack of consequences endemic to the "nanny state."

I spent over a decade seeing what permissive values and government freebies get when I did AIDS research and worked in the AIDS/ID clinic. In my new career, I've gotten to see, first-hand, the unintended harmful impact of "value-free" government help. The two young girls who deliberately decided to get knocked up BECAUSE they saw the money, food stamps, housing, internet, chlidcare, provided for "free" are a very real, very tragic price. Those kids had potential but decided to take the "easy" way out once they saw their friend hit the "government lottery."

Take your "wager" and stuff it, you pamphlet-educated, pampered, insulated poseur. Some of us adults have actually done something beyond attend political circle-jerks with beret-wearing "comrades" and instead have dealt with the realities you miseducated philosophers IM each other about over lattes....

[Dr_Phibes]

Lysenko

Again, just to put a nail in his coffin: Big. Flippen. Deal.

He was a harmless crank, unfortunately he had power, abused it and got screwed in the end. Does it make you feel good to come upon these little tidbits of information? Keep in mind that a fuedal society was going through a process of industrialisation which included agriculture and it's a viciously coercive and brutal undertaking.
This may be tough, but try and view things in their proper context, his job was to inspire the rank and file and he did exactly that. The rest is a shame.

Soviet science and biology are a frigging oxymoron.

Oh, alright then. Great bit of work there, Dr. Science - what's frightening is that you are teaching this shite to children.

"Wager?" To you and your fellow faux socialist troll, this is a fun intellectual exercise. To me, this is something I actually have seen and continue to see. To you kids, this is a fun pamplet-backed bit of coffeehouse debate. To me, this is real-world stuff - children I have helped teach and have gotten to know being seduced by the easy money and lack of consequences endemic to the "nanny state."

I spent over a decade seeing what permissive values and government freebies get when I did AIDS research and worked in the AIDS/ID clinic. In my new career, I've gotten to see, first-hand, the unintended harmful impact of "value-free" government help. The two young girls who deliberately decided to get knocked up BECAUSE they saw the money, food stamps, housing, internet, chlidcare, provided for "free" are a very real, very tragic price. Those kids had potential but decided to take the "easy" way out once they saw their friend hit the "government lottery."

Take your "wager" and stuff it, you pamphlet-educated, pampered, insulated poseur. Some of us adults have actually done something beyond attend political circle-jerks with beret-wearing "comrades" and instead have dealt with the realities you miseducated philosophers IM each other about over lattes....

Why are you telling me this? Go moan to a democrat, you puffed up little peacock, I don't give a shit. They like stuffing fingers in the dike and dressing axe wounds with a bit of clothe, any socialist would tell you that it's criminal for any citizen to be excluded from contributing to their society. In REAL WORLD SOCIALISM, not the cafe of an American Trot, no contribution - no fucking benefits.

Better luck next time prepping your students to be good little cotton-pickers.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

Lysenko

Again, just to put a nail in his coffin: Big. Flippen. Deal.

He was a harmless crank, unfortunately he had power, abused it and got screwed in the end. Does it make you feel good to come upon these little tidbits of information? Keep in mind that a fuedal society was going through a process of industrialisation which included agriculture and it's a viciously coercive and brutal undertaking.
This may be tough, but try and view things in their proper context, his job was to inspire the rank and file and he did exactly that. The rest is a shame.

He was a typical socialist, trying to subordinate reality to political belief. Real scientists dies thanks to him and the power given him. Citizens died due to the incompetent pseudoscientific agricultural policies driven by socialism. THAT is the "proper context."

You socialists and communists sure like to go to the "gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet" defense.

Soviet science and biology are a frigging oxymoron.

Oh, alright then. Great bit of work there, Dr. Science - what's frightening is that you are teaching this shite to children.

Actually, dimwit, I teach biology to children. The political stuff doesn't enter into the curriculum. That's one of the many benefits of not being forced to teach in a socialist/communist system.

Why are you telling me this? Go moan to a democrat, you puffed up little peacock, I don't give a shit.

Of course you don't really care. You and your "Fellow Troll-veler" didn't give a rat's ass about the topic at hand, other than trying to hijack it into some pro-socialist tirade.

You've got no ammo, no facts, no plans, just poorly thought-out driveby shots.

You and your buddy barely register as intellectual speedbumps in most threads.

Better luck next time prepping your students to be good little cotton-pickers.

Once again demonstrating your complete ignorace of American education, curriculum, or system.

[Dr_Phibes]

Of course you don't really care. You and your "Fellow Troll-veler" didn't give a rat's ass about the topic at hand, other than trying to hijack it into some pro-socialist tirade.

You've got no ammo, no facts, no plans, just poorly thought-out driveby shots.

You and your buddy barely register as intellectual speedbumps in most threads.

I didn't hi-jack this thread. You brought up Lysenko, as you always do and it went something like this:


MTLR: Lysenko and communism are murderers!

Phibes: Well no, it's a bit more complicated than that...

MTLR: Communists are crazy and are murderers!!


Way to raise the intellectual fucking bar, Mr. Deep.
And I got to the heart of the matter in my first post - you are bitching about the degeneration of welfare from a proper safety net that deals with inequity, into a trap people fall into but you'd rather sensationalise teen girls getting knocked up.

'Why back in my day, this crap didn't happen!!'
The system follows a pre-set pattern, you're a scientist - do yourself a favour and figure it out.

And spare me your 'no solution' crap, I have nothing but ammo, facts and plans that are currently used in countries that offer full employment and haven't got people lying around at home doing sweet piss all.
Small wonder mv blows his fuse so often.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Bravo, comrade.

Here, you earned it:

[Terry in Crapchester]

Jeez, Perk and Phibes hijack a thread and turn it into a rant on socialism.

Thanks for completely screwing up what had been an interesting read.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

"I may have murdered tens and tens and tens of millions, but I recognize a quality post when I see one. RACK the young revolutionary!"



Sincerely, Uncle Joe.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

I didn't hi-jack this thread.

Actually, your fellow troll did with THIS line:

Phibes will be by shortly to drop-kick you into LaRouche La-La Land for your classist, sexist
chauvenism. I think he's still celebrating the TightYoungDong missile launch, so give him some time.

....turning a thread about knocked-up schoolkids being tacitly encouraged to be in that state by the financial inducements they see into a discussion of 'classism,' which is utter horseshit.

You brought up Lysenko,

I dropped his name. YOU tried to minimize his place in history.

MTLR: Lysenko and communism are murderers!

Actually that's factually accurate, despite your protests to the contrary.

Way to raise the intellectual fucking bar, Mr. Deep.

Sayeth the one who tries to turn every thread into a soapbox for his failed political views.

And I got to the heart of the matter in my first post - you are bitching about the degeneration of welfare from a proper safety net that deals with inequity, into a trap people fall into but you'd rather sensationalise teen girls getting knocked up.

Sensationalize? In case you weren't paying attention, one kid I actually know was rewarded for her lack of sense, which then encouraged TWO other girls into getting knocked up. Part of the problem is not just that the "safety net" has become a "trap," it's also that there's little stigma or shame attached in a) premarital sex in teens and b) conceiving a child out of wedlock. These kids fundamentally didn't see anything WRONG with their actions. And as a result of those actions, two of those kids have dropped out of school and a third might. Those were CHILDREN - kids with good potential....now they'll be strapped with adult responsibilities minimized by government handouts. But, as your comrade pointed out, caring about the actual people isn't his/your thing. As someone who got to know those kids, I feel differently.

'Why back in my day, this crap didn't happen!!'

Never said girls didn't get knocked up, but they sure as hell had a stigma attached to it that made some kids think twice about bringing shame to their own families.

And spare me your 'no solution' crap, I have nothing but ammo, facts and plans that are currently used in countries that offer full employment and haven't got people lying around at home doing sweet piss all.

Bull-fucking-shit. I believe that one of the famous phrases from a former Soviet worker was "they pretend to pay us and we pretend to work."

Stealing property from those of us that worked and paid for it to give to others your central committees deem deserving is wrong. Morally, fundamentally wrong. And it in no way helps in the situation I was discussing, which is that parents have abdicated their responsibilities and that the government has wrongfully picked up the perceived slack while refusing to take the parents or kids to task for their piss-poor choices.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

Jeez, Perk and Phibes hijack a thread and turn it into a rant on socialism.

Thanks for completely screwing up what had been an interesting read.

It's what they do. I'm convinced that they can't honestly believe even a third of the crap they drool onto these boards.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

countries that offer full employment and haven't got people lying around at home doing sweet piss all.

Name one.

Come on now, you just know he's going to pull a bunch of made up numbers from some "People's Republic of [fill in name of oppressed nation] Ministry of Useful Propaganda" Yeah, when it comes to openness and truth, God knows that socialist/commie nations are the paragons of truth....



They'd swear on a Bible to verify their claims, but -oops- freedom of religion is severely restricted, so you'll have to use our state-approved version....

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Just because you're too much of a thick-o to know when you've been pimp-slapped, doesn't make the beatdown any less valid.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

Just because you're too much of a thick-o to know when you've been pimp-slapped, doesn't make the beatdown any less valid.

If that's what you honestly believe, then it becomes clearer how myopically deluded you are...and how representative you are of latte socialists.

Keep wearing that Che shirt...

[Dr_Phibes]

....turning a thread about knocked-up schoolkids being tacitly encouraged to be in that state by the financial inducements they see into a discussion of 'classism,' which is utter horseshit.

In your opinion. The fact that you do no agree with this does not make it invalid.

I dropped his name. YOU tried to minimize his place in history.

And you are maximising it. Kindly post some information on the impact of his work - you are making this assertion, you should be able to back it up.

Actually that's factually accurate, despite your protests to the contrary.

You are completely credulous, but you are at least consistant. As always, you are not interested in facts, only posting counter factuals with no evidence whatsoever.
What is your methology for this? You have posted Democide previous, some 'cause and effect' bullshit from some libertarian crackpot that is unacceptable in any school - stay tuned for my new level of historical measure. It's called "Phibes 'o' cide". Everyone involved in the Great War was capitalist, therefore capitalism murdered everyone in the Great War.
History study for fucking morons, morelike.

Sayeth the one who tries to turn every thread into a soapbox for his failed political views.

Where do I do this? How is my posting any different than yours?

Sensationalize? In case you weren't paying attention, one kid I actually know was rewarded for her lack of sense, which then encouraged TWO other girls into getting knocked up. Part of the problem is not just that the "safety net" has become a "trap," it's also that there's little stigma or shame attached in a) premarital sex in teens and b) conceiving a child out of wedlock. These kids fundamentally didn't see anything WRONG with their actions. And as a result of those actions, two of those kids have dropped out of school and a third might. Those were CHILDREN - kids with good potential....now they'll be strapped with adult responsibilities minimized by government handouts. But, as your comrade pointed out, caring about the actual people isn't his/your thing. As someone who got to know those kids, I feel differently.

Never said girls didn't get knocked up, but they sure as hell had a stigma attached to it that made some kids think twice about bringing shame to their own families.

So this is your entire point? Teenagers who engage in pre-marital sex should be shamed and have stigma attached to them? What century do you live in, caveman? What business is it of yours, 'libertarian'?

Stealing property from those of us that worked and paid for it to give to others your central committees deem deserving is wrong. Morally, fundamentally wrong. And it in no way helps in the situation I was discussing, which is that parents have abdicated their responsibilities and that the government has wrongfully picked up the perceived slack while refusing to take the parents or kids to task for their piss-poor choices.

And I think the fact that some people own sixty houses, some own sixteen and some own none is fundimentally wrong.


See, I can do pedantry aswell, yeah? And I'll just ignore your no-ammo drive-bys.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

~~~ wipes tear ~~~

[Terry in Crapchester]

I'm going to do Marty and Phibes a favor. I'm going to show them why socialism won't work, cannot work, in fact.

Simply put, socialism cannot work because it is contrary to fundamental human nature.

I'd be willing to bet that neither of them has yet reproduced. Once they do, they will learn, rather early on, as anyone who has ever reproduced can tell you, that when their precious bundle of joy first learns how to speak, the very first words out of his/her adorable little piehole, right after "mama" and "dada", will be "MINE". You won't have to teach them how to say that. But you will have to teach them how to share their toys with other kids.

Anyway, hope that helps.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Socialism is an evolutionary leap in human nature. If we can't transcend our basest instincts, we are no better than wild animals.

I'd rather take the Great Leap Forward, than slither along the swamp floor. How 'bout you?

[Dr_Phibes]

Simply put, socialism cannot work because it is contrary to fundamental human nature.

There is a difference between human nature and human conditioning...

And if you feel the thread has been trashed, I apologise for my bit - this was not my intention.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

And if you feel the thread has been trashed, I apologise for my bit - this was not my intention.

This is no time for your famed "self-criticism", Phibes.

Buck up, young comrade. Stiffen your proletariate backbone. You're proving to be an exemplary young hero.

Did KJI back down from Bush? No.

Rockets away, youth wing! Rockets away!

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Socialism is an evolutionary leap in human nature. If we can't transcend our basest instincts, we are no better than wild animals.

I'd rather take the Great Leap Forward, than slither along the swamp floor. How 'bout you?

The mechanism for evolution is natural selection. Burdening society with the responsibility for culls and failures is not evolution. It is de-evolution.

I'm not talking about evolution, I'm using the term evolutionary leap as an unit of measurement in the abstract, you bonehead.

[Dr_Phibes]

Socialism is an evolutionary leap in human nature. If we can't transcend our basest instincts, we are no better than wild animals.

I'd rather take the Great Leap Forward, than slither along the swamp floor. How 'bout you?

The mechanism for evolution is natural selection. Burdening society with the responsibility for culls and failures is not evolution. It is de-evolution.

You are confusing Darwin with Social Darwinism. Socio-political theory cannot be tied to evolutionary theories coat-tails, end of.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

The principle remains the same.

Only as you frame it.

Good effort, though.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Socialism is an evolutionary leap in human nature. If we can't transcend our basest instincts, we are no better than wild animals.

I'd rather take the Great Leap Forward, than slither along the swamp floor. How 'bout you?

The mechanism for evolution is natural selection. Burdening society with the responsibility for culls and failures is not evolution. It is de-evolution.

You are confusing Darwin with Social Darwinism. Socio-political theory cannot be tied to evolutionary theories coat-tails, end of.

Actually, the phrase "Social Darwinism" has been used, at least in the U.S., as a pejorative against some of the policies of the Right. Survival of the fittest, and what not. Surprising, then, that you'd use it in support of your own agenda.

Getting back to the topic at hand, I'm glad you concede my human nature argument. Imho, this is so deeply ingrained inside us that society cannot bring about change, at least not to the extent necessary to implement socialism, without giving up basic freedoms we take for granted. I'm not suggesting that we don't curb it somewhat, we have to do that to have any semblance of a civilized society, but we can't curb that instinct to the extent necessary for socialism to thrive and continue to abide by our own Constitution.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

....turning a thread about knocked-up schoolkids being tacitly encouraged to be in that state by the financial inducements they see into a discussion of 'classism,' which is utter horseshit.

In your opinion. The fact that you do no agree with this does not make it invalid.

The fact IS that your little devotee deliberately decided to commandeer a thread on teenage pregnancy and the state's unintended encouragement of it into a political soapbox for socialism. That is not my opinion...and it has been recognized by others on the board.

I dropped his name. YOU tried to minimize his place in history.

And you are maximising it. Kindly post some information on the impact of his work - you are making this assertion, you should be able to back it up.

here ya go, Sparky. Please note that I deliberately stayed away from wikipedia (which has been notoriously inaccurate on some topics) or postings from political science websites, so as to specifically avoid your usual m.o. of discounting evidence contradicting you as "politically motivated":

From the Reference.com listing:

"Between 1934 and 1940, under Lysenko's admonitions and with Stalin's blessings, many geneticists were executed (including Agol, Levit, and Nadson) or sent to labor camps. The most well-known Soviet geneticist, Nikolai Vavilov, was arrested in 1940 and died in prison in 1943. Genetics was stigmatized as a "fascist science" and "bourgeois science," in a political stigmatizing similar to the Nazi denouncements of quantum physics and Einstein's theory of relativity as "Jewish science". Some geneticists, however, survived and continued to work in genetics, dangerous as it was.

In 1948, genetics was officially declared "a bourgeois pseudoscience"; all geneticists were fired from work (some were also arrested), and all genetic research was discontinued. Nikita Khrushchev also valued Lysenko as a great scientist, and the taboo on genetics continued (but all geneticists were released or rehabilitated posthumously). Only in the middle of the 1960s was it waived. As a consequence, Lysenkoism caused serious, long-term harm to Soviet biology. It represented a serious failure of the early Soviet leadership to admit failure even in the face of utter agricultural disaster and to allow their system to be hijacked by a mere charlatan—at the expense of many human lives.Lysenkoism also spread to China, where it continued long after it was eventually denounced by the Soviets.

....

From James Watson's "DNA:The Secret of Life" (pp.369-371):

"Sucking all of SOviet agriculture into a vast experiment each time he introduced another hopelessly impractical new scheme, Lysenko was ultimately responsible for the starvation of millions." (p.369)

"In this era of Stalin's purges, political truths carried more weight than mere scientific ones. To what extent Lysenko directly contributed to the "repression" - to use the preferred Soviet euphemism for Stalin's purges- of the geneticists who spoke against him will probably never be known, but no matter who gave the orders, the fact remains that much of the opposition to Lysenko's Lamarckian ideas simply disappeared as the 1930's drew to a close. Some geneticists heroically stood their ground as outspoken critics. Muller was forced to flee for his life. The doyen of Soviet genetics (and ardent Soviet patriot) Nikolai Vavilov, was arrested in 1940. He died in prison of malnutrition." (p.369)

Watson describes how Lysenko tried to "disprove" Mendelian genetics by commisioning experiments for that express purpose, but thanks to his "mathematical incompetence" (Watson's words), he "actually became convinced that the results refuted Mendel's ratios, even when a reanalysis of the data by distinguished Soviet mathematicians showed that in fact the ratios fitted Mendel's experiments exactly." (p.369)

Watson also discusses how Lysenko's rejection of Darwinian natural selection led him to the "Great Stalin Plan for the Transformation of Nature." He had trees planted to protect the steppes from the east wind - good idea, but when he used his bizarre Lysenkoist pseudoscience, it failed. His way of doing it involved planting the seedlings in a cluster, because, (according to Lysenko), the individual seedlings will not compete with each other for sunlight and nutrients, but will rather cooperate for the good of the community. Watson states: "In the late 40's, armies of peasants fanned out across the steppe planting oak trees in clusters in accordance with the Lysenko method. The result? Intense competition among individual trees, which enfeebled all members of each cluster. By 1956, only 4 percent of the oaks planted were thriving; only 15 percent even survived. The ministry of agriculture withdrew its endorsement of the Lysenko planting protocol, but only after a sum estimated at over 1 billion rubles had been squandered." (p.371)

"...so entrenched was Lysenko's authority, and so crowded with his proteges were the ranks of Soviet biology, that it wasn't until 1964 that the Kremlin turned his back on him for good." (p.371)

So, from two apolitical sources, the latter of which is one of the greatest scientific minds of western history, condemnation of Lysenko's crackpot ideas and recognition of his huge and negative impact on Soviet science.

Lysenko is mentioned is biology classes only as a parable about how political idealism and true science should never mix and the disasterous results that can follow if they do.

BTW...not a good idea to try to call me out on science topics. In this area you are hopelessly outmatched. I'll kick your ass every freaking time.

You are completely credulous, but you are at least consistant. As always, you are not interested in facts, only posting counter factuals with no evidence whatsoever.

Really? See above. Also, I have at least given empirical information involving my own former students...not from something I read or heard discussed on the 'net or at a party.

What have you offered, other than trite drive-bys? Nothing.

What is your methology for this? You have posted Democide previous,

Link? Supporting facts?

some 'cause and effect' bullshit from some libertarian crackpot that is unacceptable in any school

Link? Supporting facts?

It's called "Phibes 'o' cide". Everyone involved in the Great War was capitalist, therefore capitalism murdered everyone in the Great War.History study for fucking morons, morelike.

What does this have to do with the topic at hand? Nothing. It's just part of the whole "Phibes show": hijack a thread, post a bunch of unsupported arguments while demanding the opponents give data on every jot and tittle, in the meantime enjoying the accolade of your little lapdog Martyred. You have yet to post a single thing of substance or supported refutation.

So this is your entire point? Teenagers who engage in pre-marital sex should be shamed and have stigma attached to them?

My point is that there should be some moral understanding imparted to children that sex is an adult act with adult consequences and that engaging in that adult act means that they must be willing to fully accept the consequences (positive AND negative) of that act. Minimizing or eliminating the negative consequences (by throwing cash and "prizes" at the pregnant girls) while playing up the positives is irresponsible of parents, schools, society, and the government.

What century do you live in, caveman? What business is it of yours, 'libertarian'?

It became my business when the increasing amounts of money that was forced from my paycheck and my pockets "redistributed" in a way that rewards these individuals. If they were spending money from their own pockets, their familes' pockets, or had been given money by willing donors, then I have no problem. But no - the money I have been compelled to give via taxes has been, against my consent, given with no strings as a reward for a selfish decision.

And I think the fact that some people own sixty houses, some own sixteen and some own none is fundimentally wrong.

It would only be "wrong" if you could prove that the person with multiple houses wrongfully acquired them from someone else. Just because someone has two houses does not mean that he owns the "extra" house at the expense of another person. The fact that Bill Gates has billions of dollars does not, in any way, mean that he has any money that rightfully belonged to me. Just because someone has wealth does not mean that he has it because he made another suffer.

It would be wrong, OTOH, for someone to decide that a person has "too many houses" or "too much money" and STOLE the houses or money from that person and gave it to another individual who did not pay for it. THAT is the definition of theft. And THAT is wrong.

No person, group of persons, and no government has the legitimate right to take the property of one person and grant it to another in the name of "fairness." The decision to share wealth with those "less fortunate" must be completely voluntary. It may be in a religious sense more MORAL to share the wealth to a greater extent, but that religious belief in no way should empower governments to extort and redistribute the extorted property.

edit: I included a link above and here to the original topic.

[Dr_Phibes]

BTW...not a good idea to try to call me out on science topics. In this area you are hopelessly outmatched. I'll kick your ass every freaking time.

Oh lookout, it's T1Bs own Tyson/ LaRouche with his wacky, whiskery, leather-elbow-patch, right-wing views again.

It isn't a science topic, it's an historical topic and a political topic.

Thanks for the Lysenko bio - the dicslaimer in the reference section was interesting - I loved the bit where he "killed millions of people". Between Stalin and Lysenko, it's a wonder anyones left alive. Anyway, interesting stuff and it corresponds with everything I've said previous:

He was a harmless crank, unfortunately he had power, abused it and got screwed in the end. Does it make you feel good to come upon these little tidbits of information? Keep in mind that a fuedal society was going through a process of industrialisation which included agriculture and it's a viciously coercive and brutal undertaking.
This may be tough, but try and view things in their proper context, his job was to inspire the rank and file and he did exactly that. The rest is a shame.

RACK me.

I'll tell you what, you keep harping on it because you're a complete moron, someone should ship you off to the gulag. You've seized upon an anecdote, a singular and unique incident and you shoot your mouth off to your little capitalist chums, 'Communism murders scientists!' in order to present an exception as a rule. You're taking a complex situation and turning it into a cute little sound-byte - American history in a nutshell.

What part off the END of story do you not understand? The man played politics, messed his peers about and got shipped off. What has this got to do with socialism?

ooooo but wait, there's still this:

Soviet science and biology are a frigging oxymoron.

How old are you?

Here are a wonderful collection of articles by authors YOU have cited. They touch upon topics ranging from:

* Mathematics
* Biological Science
* Biomedical Sciences
* Chemistry
* Physics
* Astronomy and Space Exploration
* Geology and Technology
* Policy Studies

commies kill scientists

I would address your other points, but that would be 'off topic' - can't upset the natives.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

Oh lookout, it's T1Bs own Tyson/ LaRouche with his wacky, whiskery, leather-elbow-patch, right-wing views again.

And hey, it's "Doc Fibs," trying to twist his opponents words, wave away damning evidence againt his point, and mischaracterizing his opponents...

First off, my views in total are hardly "right wing." I'm all for legalization of marijuana, dropping of "sin taxes," same-sex civil unions...

And despite the tendency for you and you little buddy to try to paint me as a hardcore political devotee (hence the LaRouche remarks), the fact remains that it's you guys, not me, that try to turn threads into debates over "classicism," post threads to commemorate historical events for "the party" or for "party heroes." I've never posted a "Happy Birthday" post for Thomas Jefferson, put links up for LP events, etc.

Hell, it's even you nutjobs that have avatars reflecting your wacky political views, while I merely have my fraternity crest.

And hasn't it occurred to you that I couldn't possibly be THAT gung-ho a libertarian, since I went to a STATE college and teach at a PUBLIC school? Of course, mentioning that would undermine your deliberately deceitful characterization of me, so you conveniently ignore it...

Thanks for the Lysenko bio - the dicslaimer in the reference section was interesting - I loved the bit where he "killed millions of people". Between Stalin and Lysenko, it's a wonder anyones left alive. Anyway, interesting stuff and it corresponds with everything I've said previous:

No, it doesn't, despite your attempts to spin it otherwise.

He was a harmless crank,

Now see, here's a specific quote from you that you claim was supported by what I posted. Obviously you've chosen to either ignore the information, hope that everyone else ignored it or lacks reading comprehension, or are indulging in deliberate falsehood.

Lysenko held a great deal of influence, as HEAD of a ministry, FOR THIRTY YEARS and as a result, honest scientists were arrested, were exiled, or died.

"Besides Vavilov, others who perished were Agol, Ferry, Levit, Karpechenko, Levitsky, Chetverikov, Efroimson, Kerkis, Philipchenko, Serebrovsky, Avdoulov, Aljin, Koltzov, etc." Reference

In addition, "The Laboratory of Cytogenetics was liquidated along with the Laboratory of Plant Cytology and the Laboratory of Phenogenesis. The Institute of Morphological Evolution was “reorganized” as well as the Institutes of Cytology, Histology and Embryology. Genetics was labelled a “foreign” science, its leading representatives, 'bourgeois.'" (same reference as above).

Add the deaths/exiles/repressions of scientists to the deaths from crop failures resulting from his fraudulent science, the billions of rubles wasted, and the fact that he held a very visible official government office for almost three decades, and only a complete idiot would relegate his impact to that of "harmless crank."

The guy who peddles his worthless dietary cures on TV infomercials might be considered a "harmless crank." Peter Duesburg and other HIV deniers might be considered "harmless cranks." Flat earthers are "harmless cranks."

Lysenko was given power, abused it, and people died, government money was squandered, and science was subverted and stunted. He was far more consequnetial that "harmless crank."

But, then again, you have the tedious tendency to ignore or gloss over hard evidence that refutes you, so this is par for the course...

unfortunately he had power, abused it and got screwed in the end.

And here we see how you attempt (poorly) to gloss over the damning evidence. Jamming three decades of ideologically-motivated and government-supported scientific fraud that cost real lives...

Does it make you feel good to come upon these little tidbits of information? Keep in mind that a fuedal society was going through a process of industrialisation which included agriculture and it's a viciously coercive and brutal undertaking.

Feudal society has nothing to do with Lysenko's deliberate fraud. Feudal society wasn't generating fake solutions in the name of political ideology. They were just trying to feed themselves. And I can't recall the names of any "feudal agricultural researchers" who were exiled, imprisoned, or executed for failing to adhere to agricultural orthodoxy...

This may be tough, but try and view things in their proper context, his job was to inspire the rank and file and he did exactly that. The rest is a shame.

A "shame?" Nice way to completely write off people's lives and intellectual/scientific integrity. Oh, wait, that's right...if it's all in the name of inspiring national pride in "the State," then it's OK in the end.

Hogwash.

I'll tell you what, you keep harping on it because you're a complete moron, someone should ship you off to the gulag.

Well, that's what your kind does when they are confronted with truths that contradict the party line or when folks have the audacity to think and communicate freely...

You've seized upon an anecdote, a singular and unique incident and you shoot your mouth off to your little capitalist chums, 'Communism murders scientists!' in order to present an exception as a rule. You're taking a complex situation and turning it into a cute little sound-byte - American history in a nutshell.

As opposed to your reducing one of science's infamous cautionary tales of mixing science and ideology into a "harmless crank?"

Nice intellectual honesty there.

What part off the END of story do you not understand? The man played politics, messed his peers about and got shipped off. What has this got to do with socialism?

Let's see...he was lionized by the party apparatus, given a government gig that directed (fraudulent) research that shipped folks away when honest scientific scrutiny/debate occurred because it was "disloyal" or "subversive," scientific truth was subordinated to party ideology...yeah, that has nothing to do with socialism

Lysenko is a big deal in biology specifically because he is a cautionary tale. His hideous example is cited more frequently now by scientists and other scientifically-literate folk who are concerned that the Bush regime is wading into the same ideologically-forced area.

At least in "Bush's World," those of us who disagree with his regime's pathetic attempts to commandeer science at worst wind up dismissed from a government job or lose government funding. No one being exiled or imprisoned for speaking out, regardless of how loud we are....

ooooo but wait, there's still this:

Soviet science and biology are a frigging oxymoron.

Here are a wonderful collection of articles by authors YOU have cited. They touch upon topics ranging from:

* Mathematics
* Biological Science
* Biomedical Sciences
* Chemistry
* Physics
* Astronomy and Space Exploration
* Geology and Technology
* Policy Studies

My point still stands, and listing eight other topics OUTSIDE of biology doesn't support your argument. The sections of that one reference that touch on bio and biomedical science name a few folks that contributed. Compare and contrast that pathetically small list to the eminent scientists from the U.S. & Great Britain. Hell, in my own field of biology, when we go over genetics, evolution, physiology....there isn't a single landmark scientist from the vaunted USSR. Gee, and if you check the Noble prize list by country, it sure doesn't look good for Lysenko's countrymen.

[stuckinia]

The only "bio science" the USSR excelled in was the weaponizing of microbes.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

The only "bio science" the USSR excelled in was the weaponizing of microbes.

Yeah, I'm so glad the U.S. took the moral high road in that respect.


This coming from the ghoulish vultures of Capitalist death that wont even sign a simple landmine treaty.


Stop dropping cluster munitions on civilians? Not when there's a buck to be made, pal.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Cluster munitions on civilian targets.

You get a grip, GI Jerkoff.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

So what's in for us? We're greedy capitalists, right? What's our end?

I realise you prefer to regurgitate your agitprop undigested, but try thinking for once in your life.

What's in it for you, personally? Why some shiny medals and a Sony boombox to crank out Taps for you as the pour what's left of you into a hole in the ground.

Raytheon and Halliburton on the other hand...



DING!!!

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

So, we drop cluster bombs on civilians so "Raytheon and Haliburton" can make money?



In that case, it would be cheaper to drop them on empty bombing ranges.

I suppose it would be asking too much for your pitifully moronic propaganda to have any logical consitency.

You don't know the way things work.

-Your sub-primate president tells you that the Iraqi menace is seconds away from vapourizing
an American city.

-You dopes buy it. Unquestioningly.

-You can't give defense contractors enough of your tax dollars. You're angry that they're not raping you fast enough.

-A unit of your Capitalist death squad drops cluster munitions on an Iraqi school's zoo trip.

-Idiotic Jew-controlled media bleets out that some famous Al Queda #2 was actually hiding
behind the penguin exhibit.

-American dumbasses nod in agreement.

-Raytheon counts your money, and takes another order for child-killer missiles.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

You don't know the way things work.

Oh...OK. I've actually been to war with the US Army...and you?

Stroke off to commie agitprop much?

I am a veteran.

[Mister Bushice]

fucking up decent threads with off topic pseudo socialistic anti US spewtum. That's what.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Of what?

Of the class struggle and daily street battles pitting the proletariat worker (me and those like me) against the fascist, corporate war machine.

"Generals gathered in their masses.....
....while mvscal licks their asses....

I am just as much a veteran of military conflict as you (probably more so) or other state-humping dumbfucks. My engagement with the "enemy" can be classified as
low intensity warfare. Believe it, you fucking welfare queen.

[War Wagon]

Of the class struggle and daily street battles pitting the proletariat worker (me and those like me) against the fascist, corporate war machine.

In other words, you're an unemployed bum with dubious personal hygiene.

Got it.

Stop giving unemployed bums a bad name.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

Of what?

Of the class struggle and daily street battles pitting the proletariat worker (me and those like me) against the fascist, corporate war machine.

"Generals gathered in their masses.....
....while mvscal licks their asses....

I am just as much a veteran of military conflict as you (probably more so) or other state-humping dumbfucks. My engagement with the "enemy" can be classified as
low intensity warfare. Believe it, you fucking welfare queen.

Holy frigging shit! ~~~~wipes a tear of laughter away~~~

You have lost absolutely ALL remaining fucking credibility with that stupidity!

You're going to equate standing on streetcorners and handing out pamphlets, attending socialist circle-jerks, and bantering (badly) on internet boards with actual military service?!?!?

BWAHAHAHA!!

Ooooh, oooh, let me play!:

Ummm....since I drive to work each day, I must be a "road warrior," and I was "in the trenches" doing AIDS research for eleven years (and I guess I can consider my two co-authored published papers to be "medals"), and now I'm "fighting the good fight" for the minds of America's youth as a teacher...

...so get me a freaking veteran license plate, veteran benefits, and save me a place in Arlington when I die!