A question about Israel

Mike the Lab Rat · Post by **Mike the Lab Rat** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:50 pm

Why a lot of folks have a hard time believing in the whole Bible/God thing, IMNSHO:

Typical "religious folks" line of argument:

If a group of folks do as God says and they prosper => it must be BECAUSE they did as ordered

If a group of folks do as God says and they get whacked anyway => then:
- someone in the group must be a slacker and lying about it, or
- they're being "tested," or
- they're being punished for thinking that they can be saved by good acts

If a set of heathens don't do as ordered in the Bible and prosper =>
- don't worry....they'll get theirs in God's own time...
- God is somehow using them for His own purposes, YTBR (yet to be revealed)
- Hey, God's grace is completely unearned, so who are YOU to judge?!?!

If all else fails, take a "prophecy" out of the Old Testament and attempt to somehow bend it to fit the modern circumstance to claim it was foretold. Make sure to do the same to specific events in modern history to "establish credibility." Wave off any arguments accusing you of "pulling a Nostradamus."

Personally, I believe any attempt to read Revelations (for example) as "foretelling" modern stuff is 100% utter and complete bullshit. This means, of course, that I shan't be invited to any more barbecues at Kirk Cameron's house, but I can live with that....

:wink:

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:50 pm

Let's try this first. What are the nations were Gospel is "established"?

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:51 pm

poptart wrote:Van, you asked for 'evidence' to support my statment, and I showed you a SMALL tip of a very large iceberg.

But you showed me no evidence. There's no curse evident there.

Instead, you showed me evidence of self serving selective thinking, whereby you apply and discard events to suit your need.

What I listed there were not just any earthquakes.
They are the 20 most killer earthquakes in recorded history.
Nearly all of them occurred in nations lacking the gospel.
Actually maybe ALL of them did.
It is what it is.

When did Portugal reject the Gospel?

When did Mexico City?

"It is what it is". Yes, it's earthquakes, which occur like clockwork all over the globe.

I've lived through a few biggies myself, here in predominantly Christian California.

Your next line of questioning is predictable.

As will be your response...

SO ARE YOU SAYING THAT ALL EARTHQUAKES ARE A CURSE FROM GOD?!?!?!?!

Well, Frankly, .... yes.

Then why do Christian nations get hit with them too? Where's there any rhyme or reason to who gets cursed and who's exempt?

Look, eventually you're going to have to go to the "It's God's will and only He knows when and why he applies his curses!" card, so let's just cut to the chase...

In other words, you're making this shit up as you go along, keeping what fits, discarding what doesn't fit. You haven't a clue, nor could you, since all of it is beyond human reckoning.

Hey, there were no earthquakes in Eden.

How do you know? Where's Eden? Who was their seismologist?

See, assuming there ever was an Eden, the guys who wrote the books that described Eden never actually saw the place. They just took it on Faith that it existed at all, and there's no seismology accounts in the bible concerning Eden.

For all you know Eden was destroyed by an earthquake, and the apple Eve ate fell to the ground because of an earthquake.

You're talking children's fables here, dude. Seriously. Do you really want to go to this ridiculous card to support your arguments?

Wait. Of course you do. You have to. You have nothing else.

Man screwed the pooch.

No, he screwed Eve. Somehow though, just from a coupling of Adam and Eve, the world managed to get populated with Eskimos, Namibians, Mexicans, Sri Lankans and Swedes.

Neat trick, that.

Read Genesis books 1-3 if you want to know where I'm coming from.

I already know where you are coming from.

I've read it. I don't buy it. It's a silly series of fables that include a number of physics impossibilities.

"God can change physics as he sees fit!"...

Great. Great argument. There's something solid to take to the mental bank.

Betcha might not've figured out then that God can also compel crazed desert folk to write a bunch of politically motivated fables and then attempt to pass 'em off as being written by God.

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:56 pm

poptart wrote:EVERY nation has disasters, PSU.
Everyone knows it.

Countries where the Gospel has not been 'established' have more ........ poverty, curses and mayhem.

That was my statement and my point.

Is it not true ... ?

No, it most certainly isn't true. You couldn't even begin to support such a ludicrous argument since all of latin America and all of colonialized Africa would shoot down any ordering of catastrophes you'd care to create.

As a matter of fact the one region of the world that is MOST accepting of the Gospel, Europe, that's the area that lived through the greatest catastophe in the history of mankind: the Black Plague.

No natural disaster ever wiped out as high of a % of people as the Black Plague did, and those were nearly all Gospel acceptin' people who died.

Patently absurd argument, poptart. Get off it.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:04 pm

Van wrote:
poptart wrote:Van, you asked for 'evidence' to support my statment, and I showed you a SMALL tip of a very large iceberg.
But you showed me no evidence. There's no curse evident there.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:07 pm

20 Poorest Countries in the world

1 East Timor
2 Somalia
3 Sierra Leone
4 Malawi
5 Tanzania
6 Burundi
7 Congo, Republic of the
8 Congo, Democratic Republic of the
9 Comoros
10 Eritrea
11 Ethiopia
12 Afghanistan
13 Niger
14 Yemen
15 Madagascar
16 Guinea-Bissau
17 Zambia
18 Kiribati
19 Nigeria
20 Mali

Got Gospel ... ?

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:10 pm

poptart, total up all those earthquake "curse" victims and they don't even "scratch the tip of the iceberg" compared to the number of devout Christians who died during the Black Plague.

They also don't come close to the number of devout Jews who died during the Holocaust.

Seems like this "curse" you speak of knows no bounds. I guess all mankind is cursed then, including any and all Gospel accepting types...

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:11 pm

poptart wrote:20 Poorest Countries in the world

1 East Timor
2 Somalia
3 Sierra Leone
4 Malawi
5 Tanzania
6 Burundi
7 Congo, Republic of the
8 Congo, Democratic Republic of the
9 Comoros
10 Eritrea
11 Ethiopia
12 Afghanistan
13 Niger
14 Yemen
15 Madagascar
16 Guinea-Bissau
17 Zambia
18 Kiribati
19 Nigeria
20 Mali

Got Gospel ... ?

Got education??

Next, look to the rest of the world. What you'll find is that ANY nation that's predicated on religion will always lag behind in terms of wealth and prosperity.

Even in developed countries your poorest people are usually the most religious ones.

Like I said, the #1 enemy of mankind is organized religion, headed up by the two people whose mere existence has caused mankind more grief than any other enemy of mankind: Mohammed and Jesus H. Christ.

You really want a wealthy, healthy and prosperous nation? Eschew organized religion, entirely. Instead, have your citizenry bury their heads in science books.

Let 'em come to depend on Christ or Muhammed and you're going to get a nation of underachieving, unmotivated sheep.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:13 pm

Van wrote:Seems like this "curse" you speak of knows no bounds. I guess all mankind is cursed then, including any and all Gospel accepting types...

Yes, now we're getting somewhere.

Genesis 3:17: And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:13 pm

The Sack of Constantinople

Crusaders sacking a Christian city...I'm sure the Gospel came in handy there.

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:19 pm

poptart wrote:
Van wrote:Seems like this "curse" you speak of knows no bounds. I guess all mankind is cursed then, including any and all Gospel accepting types...
Yes, now we're getting somewhere.

Genesis 3:17: And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life

No, we're getting nowhere.

Our only chance is in some nebulous afterlife. According to that we're doomed, here on earth.

But of course.

Mike the Lab Rat · Post by **Mike the Lab Rat** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:25 pm

Spanish flu of 1918 was worse than the Black Plague....

....and seemed to be especially fond of "Christian" nations.

Punishment? Curse?

Nope.

Simple, freaking epidemiology.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:33 pm

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:Spanish flu of 1918 was worse than the Black Plague....

....and seemed to be especially fond of "Christian" nations.

Beat me to it.

Regardless what he might think, this is going reallyreally badly for poptart.

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:42 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Mike the Lab Rat wrote:Spanish flu of 1918 was worse than the Black Plague....

....and seemed to be especially fond of "Christian" nations.

Beat me to it.

Regardless what he might think, this is going reallyreally badly for poptart.

Yep, big time.

This is like arguing with R_T_S, only poptart is at least sober, and my ear isn't getting sore.

The Spanish Flu, vs the Black Plague?

Dunno. Estimates of the Spanish Flu range from 50 million all the way up to 100 million. Definitely devastating.

The Black Plague took 1/3 of Europe, bam, gone.

Which was the greater number? Dunno. I could be wrong but I think the Black Plague had the higher body count.

Either way though, both were catastrophes that slaughtered people who'd fully accepted the Gospel, and they both hit infinitely harder than all the world's earthquakes combined, so where's poptart?

If you really wish to locate God's curse on mankind look no further than the quality of life exhibited by most of the world's devoutly religious...

Mike the Lab Rat · Post by **Mike the Lab Rat** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:56 pm

Van wrote:The Spanish Flu, vs the Black Plague?

Dunno. Estimates of the Spanish Flu range from 50 million all the way up to 100 million. Definitely devastating.

The Black Plague took 1/3 of Europe, bam, gone.

Which was the greater number? Dunno. I could be wrong but I think the Black Plague had the higher body count.

Not even close. At its worst, the Plague killed only 2 million/year. the Spanish Flu killed 25 million in one year.

If you decide to add up all the plague epidemics over various centuries, then I think plague tops the Spanish flu...but then if you add up all the flu epidemics, influenza wins again.

Either way though, both were catastrophes that slaughtered people who'd fully accepted the Gospel, and they both hit infinitely harder than all the world's earthquakes combined, so where's poptart?

If you really wish to locate God's curse on mankind look no further than the quality of life exhibited by most of the world's devoutly religious...

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:59 pm

Van wrote:.....so where's poptart?

Yes, the Spanish Flu killed MANY millions of people ALL over the planet.

Nobody gets out alive, Van.

Did I say that the 'earthquake' data was the end-all to the discussion, or did I say that it (like the 'poverty' data) was 'tip of the iceberg?'

The whole world has a problem.

The idol-worshipping countries throughout the world are, and HAVE been, the most trouble-filled shitholes on the planet.

If you think 'education' is gonna get East Timor, Somalia, Sierra Leone, Malawi, Tanzania, Burundi, the Congo, Comoros, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Afghanistan, Niger, Yemen, Madagascar, Guinea-Bissau, Zambia, Kiribati, Nigeria, and Mali ........ up to speed, you're pissin' in the wind, my friend.

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:03 pm

MtLR, between 1347 and 1350 in what was roughly a two year span the Black Plague took as much as 2/3rds of Europe.

Estimates range from 1/3rd to 2/3rds but overall, including the middle east, we're talking 75 million people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death

For one individual natural disaster that certainly makes it not only "close" but also the probable winner.

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:13 pm

poptart wrote:
Van wrote:.....so where's poptart?
Yes, the Spanish Flu killed MANY millions of people ALL over the planet.

So? So did the Black Plague, and your point was that the earthquakes were a curse from God on people who hadn't accepted the Gospel.

Well, the people killed by the Spanish Flu and the Black Plague HAD accepted the Gospel, so there goes your whole curse nonsense.

Jim Morrison wrote:Nobody gets out alive, Van.

Did I say that the 'earthquake' data was the end-all to the discussion, or did I say that it (like the 'poverty' data) was 'tip of the iceberg?'

The fact that you even included the earthquakes and attempted to use them as proof of God's curse on those who don't accept the Gospel is just comical.

It's rather disgusting, actually, come to think of it.

The whole world has a problem.

Switzerland doesn't! Not exactly a society run roughshod over by religious zealots, is it?

The idol-worshipping countries throughout the world are, and HAVE been, the most trouble-filled shitholes on the planet.

Such as all those Roman Catholic countries which worship the crucifix? You know, all those Gospel fearin' countries that are non stop shitholes which constantly get blasted by everything religious based poverty and unfortunate geography have to offer?

If you think 'education' is gonna get East Timor, Somalia, Sierra Leone, Malawi, Tanzania, Burundi, the Congo, Comoros, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Afghanistan, Niger, Yemen, Madagascar, Guinea-Bissau, Zambia, Kiribati, Nigeria, and Mali ........ up to speed, you're pissin' in the wind, my friend.

Education, mass education, proper education, is the ONLY way those countries will ever get up to speed. Christ isn't going to do fuckall for 'em.

They know. They've asked. Christ effectively told 'em told to fuck off and to go get educated so they can help themselves.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:15 pm

mvscal wrote: If you think the Christian Lordy is, you're a certifiable lunatic.

Oh, it's working out pretty well for the Somalis right now, isn't it?

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:17 pm

Van wrote:They know. They've asked. Christ effectively told 'em told to fuck off and to go get educated so they can help themselves.

Good luck with that.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:21 pm

Just remember -- if something bad happens to a group of non-christians, it's because they're godless idol worshippers. If something bad happens to a group of christians, it attributable to bad luck, happenstance, or pretty much "that's life."

It really takes quite a hate-filled, brainwashed bigot to even be able to formulate such absurdities.

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:24 pm

Dinsdale wrote:Just remember -- if something bad happens to a group of non-christians, it's because they're godless idol worshippers. If something bad happens to a group of christians, it attributable to bad luck, happenstance, or pretty much "that's life."

It really takes quite a hate-filled, brainwashed bigot to even be able to formulate such absurdities.

You forgot Option C: If something bad happens to a group of Christians (or Jews, especially!) it's attributable to their "having strayed from the covenant". God doesn't break his covenants, people do, so people gotta take their ass whuppins like they knew they had it coming...

Mike the Lab Rat · Post by **Mike the Lab Rat** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:28 pm

Van wrote:MtLR, between 1347 and 1350 in what was roughly a two year span the Black Plague took as much as 2/3rds of Europe.

Estimates range from 1/3rd to 2/3rds but overall, including the middle east, we're talking 75 million people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death

I see your "wikipedia" reference and rebut with Stanford:
Virology at Stanford

Plus even the wikipedia says that the Spanish Flu may have killed 100 million people

The problem with the wikipedia numbers regarding the Black Death are that 1) we don't really know the population of Europe that accurately for 1347-1351 and 2) we don't really know the mortality rate of the diseae. Both are sheer estimates, often based on church records.

We know far more regarding the Spanish Influenza and keep learning more. The death toll numbers keep being adjusted...upward. John M. Barry's "The Great Influenza" mentions in his most recent edition (2005) how the numbers have increased based on hospital records from China and other places.

For one individual natural disaster that certainly makes it not only "close" but also the probable winner.

Nope, not for me. "Wikipedia" is so unreliable I don't allow students to use it as a reference for papers in my classes.

In any event......being Christian sure as hell didn't protect folks.

People get infectious diseases ONLY by pathogens, not as some "curse", and its spread has everything to do with simple epidemiology, not adherence to Christ's word...

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:32 pm

Van wrote:God doesn't break his covenants, people do.....

:!:

Goober McTuber · Post by **Goober McTuber** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:33 pm

Everything I’ve read about the influenza epidemic of 1918 indicates it killed 20 to 40 million people. The plague may have killed more, but at a much lower rate per year. There were parts of Europe where the mortality rate from the plague approached 50%, but with a much sparser population in the 14th century vs. the 20th, the raw numbers did not approach that of the flu epidemic for a single year.

None of them would have died had they the forsight to accept Van as their lord and savior.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:35 pm

Mike, were infectious diseases around when God declared His creation to be 'very good' ... ?

Mike the Lab Rat · Post by **Mike the Lab Rat** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:39 pm

poptart wrote:Mike, were infectious diseases around when God declared His creation to be 'very good' ... ?

Sure...they're a form of life.

BTW, as someone who considers the whole "Garden of Eden" thing a crock, I don't buy the concept of a disease-free, death free period for living things on Earth prior to the whole "apple" thing. It's a big old fairy tale. A parable, and nothing more.

But you knew I'd say that. :wink:

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:41 pm

Why would He declare His creation to be very good if infectious diseases were part of the equation .... ?

Death entered by sin, Mike.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:45 pm

Who's your God, mvscal .... ?

I've never heard you say.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:47 pm

poptart wrote:Who's your God, mvscal .... ?

I've never heard you say.

You need to pay more attention...

Karl Rove.

Mike the Lab Rat · Post by **Mike the Lab Rat** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:48 pm

poptart wrote:Why would He declare His creation to be very good if infectious diseases were part of the equation .... ?

Death entered by sin, Mike.

Death enters because:
1) a pathogenic attack or toxic substance causes a failure of homeostasis
2) massive trauma causes failure of homeostasis
3) failure to obtain sufficient water or basic substances causes failue of biochemical activity, leading to failure of homeostasis
4) genetic mistake results in metabolic or other physiological disease...resulting in a failure of homeostasis
5) telomeric shortening in the majority of cells of the organism indicate the end of the organism's lifespan and systemic failure of homeostasis sets in.

That's pretty much it. Case closed. Got nothing to do with "sin," except for the argument that certain behaviors considered "sinful" expose one to toxic or pathogenic agents...

There was never a point in human history when humans or animals had endless lifespans free of disease or death. Never.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:57 pm

Genesis 2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die

Romans 5:12: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

Mike the Lab Rat · Post by **Mike the Lab Rat** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:19 pm

There was no physical "tree." It's a frigging symbol.

The Genesis quote is Bible-ese for "you all brought this shit on yo'selves."

Which is complete and utter horseshit.

At no time in our species' history were we immortal, free of disease, and immune from injury. To believe we honestly were until some naked guy decided to eat a chunk of fruit given to him by some naked chick (plucked off a forbidden tree) about 5 or 6 thousand years ago is just astoundingly, jaw-droppingly stupid.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:26 pm

Mike doesn't believe God, mvscal says there is no God, and Van says he IS God.

This thread really blows.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:29 pm

poptart wrote: This thread really blows.

In as much as the level of bigotry and ignorance that the christers display, I'd have to agree.

But then again, most of history's greatest fuckup fruitloops were always convinced they were in the right, too.

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:31 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
poptart wrote: This thread really blows.

... the christers ....

Frisco is that you ?

I'd still like a ruling on falafel, that has to count for something.

Mike the Lab Rat · Post by **Mike the Lab Rat** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:37 pm

poptart wrote:Mike doesn't believe God,

Oh, I believe God...I just don't happen to believe that his "scribes" did a great job getting scientific or historical accuracy down. It's not totally their fault....I don't expect folks from primitive cultures to suddenly be given flashes of insight into evolution, geology, astronomy, physiology, genetics, microbiology, cladistics and then fold those into what are meant to be RELIGIOUS texts. Telling everyone that things were great until a dude named Adam disobeyed God and ate a frigging fruit is just a PARABLE about how disobedience to God "brought sin into the world." The story is no different from the story of Pandora's Box...with same amount of historical accuracy.

Do I believe that Jesus is God? Yeppers. Do I believe that every jot and tittle of the Bible is literally true? No frigging way, especially with all the inaccuracies and contradictions in it. Do I believe that the Bible is SUPPOSED to be taken literally? Nope...and hence I have no problem with recognizing the limitations of the inspired human scribes both from a human history/science point and from a God's dealing with primitive folks point.

I believe in God...I'm just not convinced by all his alleged followers' efforts...

OCmike · Post by **OCmike** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:44 pm

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:
poptart wrote:Mike doesn't believe God,
Oh, I believe God...I just don't happen to believe that his "scribes" did a great job getting scientific or historical accuracy down. It's not totally their fault....I don't expect folks from primitive cultures to suddenly be given flashes of insight into evolution, geology, astronomy, physiology, genetics, microbiology, cladistics and then fold those into what are meant to be RELIGIOUS texts. Telling everyone that things were great until a dude named Adam disobeyed God and ate a frigging fruit is just a PARABLE about how disobedience to God "brought sin into the world." The story is no different from the story of Pandora's Box...with same amount of historical accuracy.

Do I believe that Jesus is God? Yeppers. Do I believe that every jot and tittle of the Bible is literally true? No frigging way, especially with all the inaccuracies and contradictions in it. Do I believe that the Bible is SUPPOSED to be taken literally? Nope...and hence I have no problem with recognizing the limitations of the inspired human scribes both from a human history/science point and from a God's dealing with primitive folks point.

I believe in God...I'm just not convinced by all his alleged followers' efforts...

RACK. Pretty much my feelings on the subject as well...

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:51 pm

I have no problem with God, Jesus, Allah, or any other diety...

It's their freaking groupies that I can live without.

Diogenes · Post by **Diogenes** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:27 am

mvscal wrote:
poptart wrote:Mike, were infectious diseases around when God declared His creation to be 'very good' ... ?
They would have had to have been around after "god" took his smoke break on the seventh day what was it...six thousand years ago?

Not really.

And no to the first question.