good nfl/police drama unwinding

Cuda · Post by **Cuda** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:45 pm

mvscal wrote:
How many firefights have you been in?

Not nearly as relavent as you'd like to think it is.

I've never had cancer, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna start smoking 2 packs a day anytine soon.

Cuda · Post by **Cuda** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:01 pm

Nobody said it was "while under fire", not even TardFu

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:05 pm

CTRL-cuda wrote:Unless my math is way off

Ya think? We'll go ahead and regard that as probable.

Cuda · Post by **Cuda** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:09 pm

PSUFAN wrote:
CTRL-cuda wrote:Unless my math is way off
Ya think? We'll go ahead and regard that as probable.

Cuda wrote:Unless my math is way off, 7 meters (the average distance in police-related firefights) is something like 93 meters closer than 100 meters.

Go wipe your ass, PUSTARD

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:17 pm

OK, back now. You were saying?

Cuda · Post by **Cuda** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:33 pm

You're dismissed, fuckbite

Derron · Post by **Derron** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:49 pm

mvscal wrote:
Cuda wrote:No, I'm saying that a dropoff of 80% shouldn't be considered acceptable.
His point is, "What the fuck do you know about it?"

How many firefights have you been in?

You did not ask this question of me, but I will answer it and then ask you the same fucking thing....

I have been in exactly zero. Pointed guns at people a couple of times of the last 25 years, that seemed to get the message across real good, and the situation ended there. Oh, and they both were criminals trying to fuck with me so forget the meanacing arugments.

How many gunfights you been in you jacked up idiot ??

And since you and the Kool Aid G man have a hard time understanding the common man's reasoning, you might want to think that even a common man, may have military experience, law enforcement training, firearms training, siutuational awarness training, and pursuit driving , with out being a career law enforcement person.

Fuck off now.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:49 pm

Naa...I think I'll stick around to watch CTRL-cupsbiggiesballs parade around with his asscheeks akimbo, musking up for plunger action

Cuda · Post by **Cuda** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:27 pm

IRIEFAN wrote:Naa...I think I'll stick around to watch CTRL-cupsbiggiesballs parade around with his asscheeks akimbo,

Leave me out of your twisted homoerotic fantasies you stuttering fucking faggot

Derron · Post by **Derron** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:14 pm

mvscal wrote:
Derron kick's mvscal ass said wrote:I have been in exactly zero.
Then keep your motherfucking dicksucker shut, dumbass.

Still did not answer the question bitch fucker....you been in any gun fights other than blasting the neighborhood nogger boy with a cap gun ??

You going to answer or just post profane comments that inflate your egocentric life ??

Cocksucker.

Derron · Post by **Derron** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:21 pm

mvscal wrote:Yes, I have not that it has any relevance to the subject since I'm not the stupid braindead fuck pontificating on what is or isn't acceptable accuracy under fire.

No... its not relevant at all. Poor little nogger boy must have got a do over ??

Derron · Post by **Derron** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:34 pm

what is or isn't acceptable accuracy under fire.

I guess my frame of reference is limited to the 2 situations I was involved in where I was forced to point a gun at some individuals to correct a bad situation.

I was trained in law enforcement firearms handling and situations at a young age, in my early 20's. Training at a young age stays with you. One individual decided he wanted to "fuck up" my family at my back door one night, because I had fired him from a job that day for assualting a fellow employee.

Those words were all it took for me to pull my .357 from my back belt, move to cover behind a thick door, pointed that nickel plated beast at him and order him the fuck out of there. He wisely complied and left. I have no doubt I could have hit him, since it was well under that "7" meter range.

The other situation was when I stopped to take a piss at a isolated wide spot on I 5 at 2 am one time. A van with 2 lowlifes pulled up, and one got out and started over at me, and I pulled same nickle plated .357 ( 1st 3 rounds Hydro Shock) and pointed it at the lowlife and told him to leave me the fuck alone and get in his van and leave, which he wisely did.

Now my adrehline ( sp ??) did get going, but my former training just kicked in. I also had to stand cover during a ride along with a small town police officer when he pulled over a car with 5 scumbags, 3 with felony warrants. I just stood there holding that AR -15 in plain view, and the scumbags behaved quite well.

Again, all controlled situations, but never allowed it to escalate.

Cuda · Post by **Cuda** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:22 am

Derron wrote: You going to answer or just post profane comments that inflate your egocentric life ??
.

Dude, you make it sound like there's something wrong with that.

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:01 am

Derron wrote:
Again, all controlled situations, but never allowed it to escalate.

Exactly, Bro. Controlled. Control goes out the window once the bullets start flying. ESPECIALLY if there was no control of the situation to begin with. Which is exactly what causes the 20% figure. You really never know as a cop when the time will come, but when it does you simply react.

Again, aiming is a freaking luxury. The split second you take to aim with could be your last split second...

The more I hear of this deal with Foley, btw, the dirtier it looks. Just too plain, neat, simple, and full of shit. And now dude misses a season and 3/4ths of a mil by getting shot IN FRONT OF HIS HOUSE? That cop is toast.

You simply CANNOT effect a traffic stop in your own vehicle, out of uniform. Complete absurdity. ESPECIALLY not for a freaking misdemeanor.

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:04 pm

So what is the name of that town Foley is about to be Mayor of?

I did read that yesterday. BACK of the leg? THE LEG?

Friggin small town rent-a-cops...

Diego in Seattle · Post by **Diego in Seattle** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:58 am

Things just took a turn for the worse for Foley....b/a of .233

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:09 am

rozy wrote:Again, aiming is a freaking luxury. The split second you take to aim with could be your last split second...

With all due respect to your work experience...

Read that to yourself a few times, and see if you can understand how fucking stupid it sounds.

If this is indeed the attitude with cops, then the 10%(or whatever) figure makes a lot more sense, and explains why homeowners hit targets at a MUCH higher clip than these "trained professionals."

I've never been in a gunfight, but I've been in situations where they were pulled out and waving around(probably not a good commentary on some of my youthful decision making, but it is what it is). And I'll tell you one thing with 100% certainty -- if the time had come to pull the trigger, I guaranfuckingTEE you I would have hit paydirt...then again in fairness/disclosure, for one of those, I was holding a 12 gauge one of those times, which tends to increase the hit% by quite a bit. But not at any of those times did I so much as flinch.

THEN AGAIN, if those people didn't have deep-seeded fears and obvious mental inadequacies, they never would have become cops in the first place. Apologies to Rozy and Luth, but that is straight-up FACT, whether you care to acknowledge it or not.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:59 am

Diego in Seattle wrote:Things just took a turn for the worse for Foley....b/a of .233

That "news report" reads like a police department press release. The nut of this is still that Foley was shot 3 times, from behind, by an off duty officer 23 miles outside of his jurisdiction. That shit can't be explained away by his bac or "roid rage".

Diogenes · Post by **Diogenes** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:11 am

BSmack wrote:
Diego in Seattle wrote:Things just took a turn for the worse for Foley....b/a of .233
That "news report" reads like a police department press release.

And this is supposed to be any differant from the rest of the 'journalism' on this case?

As far as getting shot in the back outside your house... Welcome to San Diego. And no, it isn't a black thing. The only two colours are blue and the rest of you.

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:20 am

I guess a b/a of .233 is now a capital offense?

Damn, I'm sure glad I left my wild years behind before they made that law.

Diogenes · Post by **Diogenes** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:31 am

Mikey wrote:I guess a b/a of .233 is now a capital offense?

It is if you've just gotten over on tussling with the SDPD earlier in the week.

Mister Bushice · Post by **Mister Bushice** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:05 am

rozy wrote:So what is the name of that town Foley is about to be Mayor of?

I did read that yesterday. BACK of the leg? THE LEG?

Friggin small town rent-a-cops...

Hey. Give officer TVO a break. He was aiming up.

Rack Fu · Post by **Rack Fu** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:08 am

Dinsdale wrote:
rozy wrote:Again, aiming is a freaking luxury. The split second you take to aim with could be your last split second...

With all due respect to your work experience...

Read that to yourself a few times, and see if you can understand how fucking stupid it sounds.

If this is indeed the attitude with cops, then the 10%(or whatever) figure makes a lot more sense, and explains why homeowners hit targets at a MUCH higher clip than these "trained professionals."

I've never been in a gunfight, but I've been in situations where they were pulled out and waving around(probably not a good commentary on some of my youthful decision making, but it is what it is). And I'll tell you one thing with 100% certainty -- if the time had come to pull the trigger, I guaranfuckingTEE you I would have hit paydirt...then again in fairness/disclosure, for one of those, I was holding a 12 gauge one of those times, which tends to increase the hit% by quite a bit. But not at any of those times did I so much as flinch.

THEN AGAIN, if those people didn't have deep-seeded fears and obvious mental inadequacies, they never would have become cops in the first place. Apologies to Rozy and Luth, but that is straight-up FACT, whether you care to acknowledge it or not.

Wow! Who would've thought that Dinsdale would've been a tactical law enforcement firearms expert?

I like how a few yahoos with ZERO experience in law enforcement (or the military) claim to be experts on the matter while those of us with experience in the matter don't seem to know what the fuck we're talking about.

I took this snippet from articles on policeone.com, handgunmag.com:

So when we discuss the relative merits of, say, sighted aiming vs. threat-focused aiming, we have to make sure we are specifying two parameters without which the discussion is meaningless (as so many of these discussions actually are): we have to specify the level of training we are assuming in the operator, and we have to specify the level of stress they will be under. The level of stress is usually proportional to the control the operator has over the situation and the level of surprise he/she is under. A well-trained SWAT officer making a entry or felony stop is both in control of the situation and is not surprised by it (in fact, they are initiating it.) Thus it will not be a surprise if such an officer remembers, for example, clearly seeing their sights if shooting erupts in such a situation. A rookie, on the other hand, placed in the same situation, could well be expected to threat-focus. Likewise, on that same SWAT entry, if things suddenly go in a direction that no-one anticipated-say a bad guy suddenly pops out of a surprise location-then, losing control and surprised, the same SWAT officer could be expected to threat-focus...

Finally, we need to avoid the conceit that because we have trained a number of people to perform a skill under stress, that that skill is "validated" as combat-worthy. The fact is that such skills are validated as useful only so long as the stress level in training is not exceeded. In an actual encounter, stress levels can go much higher than in training for several reasons, and once they do, our people will enter SNS (Sympathetic Nervous System) override where only a few hard-wired techniques will work. The reasons that stress in an actual fight can far exceed stress in the training environment include:

1. It is for real. No one really thinks they will die in training.
2. It is not under our control to a small or great degree
3. We may be out-gunned, out-classed, or out-numbered
4. It takes us by surprise

I know that there are different scientific studies explaining how it is impossible to see the sights on a pistol during an armed confrontation. Recently, AO Sight System released a document entitled "Factors Influencing Visibility of Firearm Sights During BAR" (BAR meaning body alarm reaction) in which author Dr. Edward C. Godnig claims that it is possible "to maintain visual awareness of the 'sight picture'." I, too, have found this to be the case, but it is dependent on several factors. The first is whether or not the subject in question was caught unaware and the startle response kicked in. When startled, people will respond out of fear and panic, which usually does not result in the desired outcome.

The biggest factor during a startle response is luck. While luck will always be a factor in every confrontation, I am not convinced that we should make it a factor in our training. When statements are made such as, "I'm not going to be able to use the sights anyway, why spend training time using them?" It is almost as if we are expecting to be caught unaware and allowing luck to be the deciding factor. Clint Smith has said, "When you get up close you don't have to be good, you just have to be lucky," which is certainly true. Maybe the answer to this problem is not to be worried about whether or not to use sights, but to concentrate on being "switched on" to what is going on around you.

Without fail, the people who remember seeing or using their front sight are the ones who were prepared to engage in combat. Good examples of this are soldiers on the field of battle or SWAT cops who know going in that they are quite likely to shoot. These folks kept sights in their "cone of vision" and relied on them when a hostile target was encountered. I have also experienced this phenomenon while working narcotics for a number of years. Prior to raids and vehicle takedowns, I would visualize in my head what I planned on doing, including where my firearm would be. This position would always be some type of high ready position where the gun and its sights were within my "cone." I found that during the operation itself, that when I encountered potential hostiles, I could shift between the actions of the suspect and the location of my front sight with little problem. The big difference here is that I was "prepared" to engage in a somewhat controlled situation and not caught in startlement. Awareness is as important to gun fighting as is trigger control.

A good read on the subject is Dr. William Lewinski's "Stress Reactions Related to Lethal Force Encounters." He's just a PhD with close to three decades of leading research on stress and reactions in deadly force encounters. He's obviously no Dinsdale, Cuda or Derron when it comes to expertise in this arena so I would take everything he has published with a grain of salt since he dismisses all of your brilliant assertions. It's a short PDF available on the web, I believe.

I know that you ignorant twats will continue to tell us all about how you would shoot Mr. Badguy right between the eyes in the heat of a gunfight so feel free to carry on. I wouldn't want to derail your one-way trip to Moronville.

The phantorino · Post by **The phantorino** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:23 pm

Holy Meltsville, Batman!

Derron · Post by **Derron** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:57 pm

I like how a few yahoos with ZERO experience in law enforcement (or the military) claim to be experts on the matter while those of us with experience in the matter don't seem to know what the fuck we're talking about.

Because YOU don't. You refuse to acknowledge that anybody without a badge could have any experience in this. I was trained in law enforcement at a young age. Never put a badge on, but went through enough training too. Went into the fire service instead, where the bad guys were glad to see us, because that meant the cops had to stop beating the shit out of them, so we could treat them. Been there and saw it more than a few times. Besides, I liked to hit a bowl or two now and then, and that did not go well for a law enforcement career back in the day.

And I can still shoot expert...so fuck you.

Now for the rest of your quoted rant....typical G man Federal goverment smother them with bullshit attitude. I am guessing that of the afore mentioned people, none of us (them) give a fuck about Dr Suess's therory, but you fucking G men suck that shit up. Continue posting likethat and you reaffirm your position as another worthless Federal leech, spouting the party line.

The phantorino · Post by **The phantorino** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:28 pm

Derron wrote:
I was trained in law enforcement at a young age.
I had a cowboy suit for my 6th birthday, too. When I was 7, I even got caps for the gun. Lovely, shiny badge!
Besides, I liked to hit a bowl or two now and then, and that did not go well for a law enforcement career back in the day.

And I can still shoot expert...so fuck you.

So, some kind of pothead with a weapon, Mr. Attitude.? Might want to come off that shit for a while - especially when you're packing

sayin'

Nishlord · Post by **Nishlord** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:57 pm

Derron wrote:I was trained in law enforcement at a young age.

I was toilet trained. I think I got the better part of the deal.

Derron · Post by **Derron** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:00 am

The phantorino wrote:
Derron wrote:
I was trained in law enforcement at a young age.
I had a cowboy suit for my 6th birthday, too. When I was 7, I even got caps for the gun. Lovely, shiny badge!
Besides, I liked to hit a bowl or two now and then, and that did not go well for a law enforcement career back in the day.

And I can still shoot expert...so fuck you.
So, some kind of pothead with a weapon, Mr. Attitude.? Might want to come off that shit for a while - especially when you're packing

sayin'

Ohhh fuccckkk yeah... Derron posted something that I can twist and poke shit at....fuckkkkkk....

You get that cowboy suit so you would keep your pie hole shut when yo Daddy jammed his dick in your ass ??

and then at 7 yo Daddy got you those "special" caps, so he could continue jamming his dick in your ass ?? or did you move up to sucking his cock about then....

shut the fuck up and go back to troll land and maybe yo troll Daddy will continue to fuck you in the ass...

Diego in Seattle · Post by **Diego in Seattle** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:19 am

Shooting for a score is nothing like the experience of shooting to stay alive.

-MA

Nishlord · Post by **Nishlord** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:20 am

Derron, are you Ralph Wiggum?

Derron · Post by **Derron** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:33 am

Nishlord wrote:Derron, are you Ralph Wiggum?

Speak english mother fucker....go back to posting links to stupid Scottish fucks nobody cares about or understands.

Derron · Post by **Derron** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:34 am

Nishlord wrote:
Derron wrote:I was trained in law enforcement at a young age.
I was toilet trained. I think I got the better part of the deal.

A fucking wonder you were able to be trained to shit in a toliet instead of your pants. From your post's, we can assume that you still shit in your pants and then write about it. Stupid limeys.

Nishlord · Post by **Nishlord** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:39 am

Your cat's breath smells of cat food.

Goober McTuber · Post by **Goober McTuber** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:34 am

Nishlord wrote:Your cat's breath smells of cat food.

Chances are good that Derron's dick does, as well. Dude claims to get a lot of "pussy".

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:05 pm

Rack Fu wrote:
Dinsdale wrote:
rozy wrote:Again, aiming is a freaking luxury. The split second you take to aim with could be your last split second...

With all due respect to your work experience...

Read that to yourself a few times, and see if you can understand how fucking stupid it sounds.

If this is indeed the attitude with cops, then the 10%(or whatever) figure makes a lot more sense, and explains why homeowners hit targets at a MUCH higher clip than these "trained professionals."

I've never been in a gunfight, but I've been in situations where they were pulled out and waving around(probably not a good commentary on some of my youthful decision making, but it is what it is). And I'll tell you one thing with 100% certainty -- if the time had come to pull the trigger, I guaranfuckingTEE you I would have hit paydirt...then again in fairness/disclosure, for one of those, I was holding a 12 gauge one of those times, which tends to increase the hit% by quite a bit. But not at any of those times did I so much as flinch.

THEN AGAIN, if those people didn't have deep-seeded fears and obvious mental inadequacies, they never would have become cops in the first place. Apologies to Rozy and Luth, but that is straight-up FACT, whether you care to acknowledge it or not.
Wow! Who would've thought that Dinsdale would've been a tactical law enforcement firearms expert?

I like how a few yahoos with ZERO experience in law enforcement (or the military) claim to be experts on the matter while those of us with experience in the matter don't seem to know what the fuck we're talking about.

I took this snippet from articles on policeone.com, handgunmag.com:

So when we discuss the relative merits of, say, sighted aiming vs. threat-focused aiming, we have to make sure we are specifying two parameters without which the discussion is meaningless (as so many of these discussions actually are): we have to specify the level of training we are assuming in the operator, and we have to specify the level of stress they will be under. The level of stress is usually proportional to the control the operator has over the situation and the level of surprise he/she is under. A well-trained SWAT officer making a entry or felony stop is both in control of the situation and is not surprised by it (in fact, they are initiating it.) Thus it will not be a surprise if such an officer remembers, for example, clearly seeing their sights if shooting erupts in such a situation. A rookie, on the other hand, placed in the same situation, could well be expected to threat-focus. Likewise, on that same SWAT entry, if things suddenly go in a direction that no-one anticipated-say a bad guy suddenly pops out of a surprise location-then, losing control and surprised, the same SWAT officer could be expected to threat-focus...

Finally, we need to avoid the conceit that because we have trained a number of people to perform a skill under stress, that that skill is "validated" as combat-worthy. The fact is that such skills are validated as useful only so long as the stress level in training is not exceeded. In an actual encounter, stress levels can go much higher than in training for several reasons, and once they do, our people will enter SNS (Sympathetic Nervous System) override where only a few hard-wired techniques will work. The reasons that stress in an actual fight can far exceed stress in the training environment include:

1. It is for real. No one really thinks they will die in training.
2. It is not under our control to a small or great degree
3. We may be out-gunned, out-classed, or out-numbered
4. It takes us by surprise

I know that there are different scientific studies explaining how it is impossible to see the sights on a pistol during an armed confrontation. Recently, AO Sight System released a document entitled "Factors Influencing Visibility of Firearm Sights During BAR" (BAR meaning body alarm reaction) in which author Dr. Edward C. Godnig claims that it is possible "to maintain visual awareness of the 'sight picture'." I, too, have found this to be the case, but it is dependent on several factors. The first is whether or not the subject in question was caught unaware and the startle response kicked in. When startled, people will respond out of fear and panic, which usually does not result in the desired outcome.

The biggest factor during a startle response is luck. While luck will always be a factor in every confrontation, I am not convinced that we should make it a factor in our training. When statements are made such as, "I'm not going to be able to use the sights anyway, why spend training time using them?" It is almost as if we are expecting to be caught unaware and allowing luck to be the deciding factor. Clint Smith has said, "When you get up close you don't have to be good, you just have to be lucky," which is certainly true. Maybe the answer to this problem is not to be worried about whether or not to use sights, but to concentrate on being "switched on" to what is going on around you.

Without fail, the people who remember seeing or using their front sight are the ones who were prepared to engage in combat. Good examples of this are soldiers on the field of battle or SWAT cops who know going in that they are quite likely to shoot. These folks kept sights in their "cone of vision" and relied on them when a hostile target was encountered. I have also experienced this phenomenon while working narcotics for a number of years. Prior to raids and vehicle takedowns, I would visualize in my head what I planned on doing, including where my firearm would be. This position would always be some type of high ready position where the gun and its sights were within my "cone." I found that during the operation itself, that when I encountered potential hostiles, I could shift between the actions of the suspect and the location of my front sight with little problem. The big difference here is that I was "prepared" to engage in a somewhat controlled situation and not caught in startlement. Awareness is as important to gun fighting as is trigger control.
A good read on the subject is Dr. William Lewinski's "Stress Reactions Related to Lethal Force Encounters." He's just a PhD with close to three decades of leading research on stress and reactions in deadly force encounters. He's obviously no Dinsdale, Cuda or Derron when it comes to expertise in this arena so I would take everything he has published with a grain of salt since he dismisses all of your brilliant assertions. It's a short PDF available on the web, I believe.

I know that you ignorant twats will continue to tell us all about how you would shoot Mr. Badguy right between the eyes in the heat of a gunfight so feel free to carry on. I wouldn't want to derail your one-way trip to Moronville.

No need to expand on that. Absolute RACK!

Cuda · Post by **Cuda** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:41 pm

Cops pat themselves on the back & declare themselves heros no matter how much they fuck up. Who'd ever have thunk it?

-sin,
The Denver SWAT team who, while outfitted in body-armor from head to toe, bravely cowered behind fire trucks for several hours after the Cloumbine killers blew their own brains out.

The phantorino · Post by **The phantorino** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:02 pm

Derron wrote:Speak english mother fucker....

Then...

Derron wrote:A fucking wonder you were able to be trained to shit in a toliet instead of your pants. Stupid limeys.

I think you meant Tole It
Main Entry: tole
Pronunciation: 'tOl
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French tôle, from Middle French dialect taule, from Latin tabula board, tablet
: sheet metal and especially tinplate for use in domestic and ornamental wares in which it is usually japanned or painted and often elaborately decorated; also : objects made of tole

But why you talk about defeation and tinplate is beyond us.

sin

- Stupid Limeys, Esq.

Derron · Post by **Derron** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:18 pm

ahhh yes speelling and kwyboard smack is so BODE these days.

Diego in Seattle · Post by **Diego in Seattle** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:42 pm

Cuda wrote:Cops pat themselves on the back & declare themselves heros no matter how much they fuck up. Who'd ever have thunk it?

-sin,
The Denver SWAT team who, while outfitted in body-armor from head to toe, bravely cowered behind fire trucks for several hours after the Cloumbine killers blew their own brains out.

Armchair quarterbacking coming from a 4th graders. We'll be sure to keep your contribution in mind.

Sin,
No we won't

Cuda · Post by **Cuda** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:11 am

Short-Eyes in Seattle, you of all people ought to steer well clear of 4th grader references.