Chasers

buckeye_in_sc · Post by **buckeye_in_sc** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:10 pm

Ok been having a big problem with chasers in the neighborhood game...no matter what you do can't get them out...

this is a case of people who do not understand pot odds, implied odds, bet sizing, and or trying to figure out even with the rule of 4 & 2 (sup Phil Gordon) the likelihood of them improving their hand at showdown...

any thoughts on how you have combatted this? I have tried everything...bigger than normal raises, limping and hope to trap...check raising, betting out...it seems the only move is to push all in and hope...

discuss!

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:54 pm

If you figure it out, let me know.

Seems like the higher the stakes, the fewer the chasers.

Mook · Post by **Mook** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:12 pm

You want chasers in the hand. You want people to make calls with improper odds to call. All of these things create value for you over the long term. If you make the proper decisions/bets/calls/raises then you will beat these "chasers" over the long run. If this is a neighborhood game, I assume you play with these people on a regular basis. If this is true, you want them making "bad" calls. You will profit in the long term.

Adelpiero · Post by **Adelpiero** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:40 am

i play in this cash tourney on saturdays, and people call all ins with suited cards, j5, k2, doesnt matter, they call, and usually hit

i bet with aa, lady raises with 77, guy calls with q10 suited, i raise 2000, all in, she calls, he calls.

of course 2 q's hit on the flop. i lose with pocket aces to q10, after 2 bets and an all in and a call.

the guy claims its a great call. suckers the bunch, but they seem to always catch the river.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:42 am

Adelpiero wrote: the guy claims its a great call.

You mean putting the whole freaking stack in when you're WAYYYYYYYYYY behind isn't?

Keep playing with that guy.

buckeye_in_sc · Post by **buckeye_in_sc** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:43 pm

well lately I have been taking a beating from the chasers...part of it might be I am giving them too good of odds...but then again like I said about 99% of them couldn't figure that out...I guess i will just go to being a MIS (Move in specialist)...might as well make them think a little...

Mook · Post by **Mook** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:47 pm

buckeye_in_sc wrote:well lately I have been taking a beating from the chasers...part of it might be I am giving them too good of odds...but then again like I said about 99% of them couldn't figure that out...I guess i will just go to being a MIS (Move in specialist)...might as well make them think a little...

Don't start playing bad just because other people are. I know there are times when it seems like the bad beats keep coming, but if you play correctly you will beat these "chasers" in the long run. Do what you like, but if you play well the results will ultimately follow. If the results aren't coming you need to really re-evaluate your play. I'm not trying to sound preachy but the answer to beating bad poker players isn't to become one yourself. Good luck out there.

buckeye_in_sc · Post by **buckeye_in_sc** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:55 pm

True...just frustrated and frazzled...

thanks for the advice and tips...re-evaluting as we speak...

Adelpiero · Post by **Adelpiero** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:41 am

icestorm stopping the chasers from taking my cash this saturday

you cant stop chasers, no matter how much you bet, they will call, seen it in big money games and big money games in vegas.

after reading a bunch of crap lately on 2+2 and some of the poker boards, glad i dont spend $$$ on online poker, too many fraud cases coming out, we all know there is a tremendous chipdump game going, but collusion at the highest degree and the poker sites doing nothing. big better losing 36K out of his account by a hacker and full tilt allowing it and giving bullshit reason why they didnt stop it

stick to freerolls on ub and others

out

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:06 pm

I've never understood why people complain about bad beats? If you continue to get your money in with the best hand, over time, you'll come out ahead. Make big bets for chasers and hope they call. That's fine. Sometimes they'll hit their hand, but more often they will not and you'll come out on top. Poker is a game of streaks, but in the long run, only the good players come out ahead. And, from my experiences, only 1-2 out of an entire table are quality players most of the time. I love chasers. They just pay me off eventually. In fact, sometimes I like a person to lay a bad beat on me because once the idiots hit their gut-shot or flush draw, they're gonna get the false belief that they're always gonna hit it and that's not true. I play in medium level games, and since I've jumped up from the lower level I've noticed that there really are not very many fewer chasers and loose players than in the lower limits. And I love that!

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:18 pm

TheJON wrote:Poker is a game of streaks, but in the long run, only the good players come out ahead.

True, true.

But, you also know that when one of those bad streaks just keeps hanging on and hanging on, past the point of reasonable expectations of probablity, it becomes frustrating to even the most patient players. I guess the cure for that is to keep your chin up, and be confident that you are a good player(even if you're not) and you'll come out ahead eventually.

Mook · Post by **Mook** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:39 pm

Dinsdale wrote: But, you also know that when one of those bad streaks just keeps hanging on and hanging on, past the point of reasonable expectations of probablity, it becomes frustrating to even the most patient players. I guess the cure for that is to keep your chin up, and be confident that you are a good player(even if you're not) and you'll come out ahead eventually.

I think one of the problems many players have is that when a bad streak continues they start to alter their play and thus become a contributing factor to the bad "streak". Whey you're running bad it's especially important to objectively analyze your play to find out what leaks you have that are causing you problems. Sometimes we create our own bad beats.

NjSooner · Post by **NjSooner** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:27 am

Mook wrote:
Dinsdale wrote: But, you also know that when one of those bad streaks just keeps hanging on and hanging on, past the point of reasonable expectations of probablity, it becomes frustrating to even the most patient players. I guess the cure for that is to keep your chin up, and be confident that you are a good player(even if you're not) and you'll come out ahead eventually.
I think one of the problems many players have is that when a bad streak continues they start to alter their play and thus become a contributing factor to the bad "streak". Whey you're running bad it's especially important to objectively analyze your play to find out what leaks you have that are causing you problems. Sometimes we create our own bad beats.

I think what theyre trying to say is protect your stack/BR when youre running cold. (Play group 1 -KK, AKs, AA- starting hands and a few B's- AKo QQ, JJ, KQs, AQs ect- and all that boring shit.)
When your deck is normal/hot, you can mix it up a bit -suited connectors, suited one gappers, and the obvious premium starting hands.

If you feel like your game is suffering because of the deck bewing cold, take a break from anything poker related or have someone you trust shadow you, looking for any mistakes in your game... id suggest a vacation though, clears your head and all.

buckeye_in_sc · Post by **buckeye_in_sc** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:02 pm

I am on a semi vacation...headed to vegas in early Feb to play some serious poker i.e. logging a ton of hours either playing cash or tourneys...won't have the anchor (wife) nagging to go do something else so that will help me focus...

my bone of contention is the chasers have no idea what to do when they flop a strong draw (flush, OESD with say top pair) and you are sitting with say KK or some other premium hand...these chasers usually check the flop hoping for a free card...you bet out (don't even try bet sizing on them they don't understand that either)...but then they usually hit on the turn or river and still continue to call...meh to each his own I guess...

I agree with the forum here on many points...Dins hit it on the head when it keeps on happening beyond all level of probability...when they seem to hit those 3-5 outers with regular consistency you start to go bat shit...now I have laid a few bad beats on people but most of them are from outflopping an over pair say 99 vs JJ...that most people can handle...but this mentality of calling to chase a 4 outer is nuts...yes I agree with Jon as well (did I just say that)...a bad beat or 2 can be good for the strong, tight aggressive player in the long run...because they will chase and not hit and still pay you off since they can't give you credit for anything...

good points...keep it going

but I am taking a break until early Feb...just two small recreational games between now and then nothing major (moreso playing just to get some hands in)...uninstalled Poker Stars so no more online for SC for a while...

SunCoastSooner · Post by **SunCoastSooner** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:23 pm

I gotta say that I agree with Dins and Buckeye. I play in a "league" out here through a website but it is live action, in a pretty regular Saturday night cash game, and make a trip to Biloxi as often as possible (usually it is combined with my trip to Providence Hospital in Mobile... great oncology department there!). There are just over 4,000 people in our state registered to play in the tournys and you can just about find a set of games (2 at each establishment) on every night except Saturday if you're willing to make a small drive on occasion. Last quarter I finished in 9th place and only the top 120 qualify for the quartly and the same for the yearly which the winners of each of the respective tournys gain a seat at the WSOP main event.

Donkeys are going to chase, it's just the laws of poker nature. The higher the stakes the less likely Donkeys are going to be there and chasing. If you play consitant, recognize both pot odds and your outs you will fare well over the long term, no if ands or buts about it.

Mook is also right as far as chasers at cash games. YOU WANT THESE IDIOTS THERE. This is how YOU make YOUR money.

Something you might want to consider buckeyes, or anyone else here that plays with the same people on regular basis, is changing your playing style on a semi regular basis. One month play like a shark and the next like a fish. Switch it up so the donkeys can't get a consitant and good read on your betting patterns. Now I am not saying that you should change up the hands you play but just your betting style. A lot of Donkeys are just used to playing online as well and so betting patterns are what they are looking for.

Adelpiero · Post by **Adelpiero** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:11 pm

if you believe the bigger the cash games, the less chasers, your sadly mistaken.

unless your going to the 250-500 blind levels, the tards with moms money to burn will call you to the turn with a gutshot straight.

i watched it, and played with them in vegas. watched people chase on the poker sites in limits of 1000/2000 games. staying with a 3K bet with 910 off suit and hitting 2 pair or better against kk,aa,etc

i've played 4/8 limit and had some great games, also played and got sucked out by 2-3 offsuit with 2 raises before the flop. some people chase no matter the stakes, and no matter the game, they watch the idiots on tv(pro's :roll:) call 5-2off against a AA after a small raise. then call down and pull 3 2's or some shit 2 pair. tv has ruined poker, it gave chasers a reason to stay in, no matter what the hand(i'm callin, cause daniel n called with this

). playing N/L at bellagio, and guy called my allin(300$) bet with QJ off. guess what, he hit a flop of Q4Q, my KK was behind bigtime. i knew after watching what he called with, i was in trouble.

i had 2 pair off flop, - i wanted to keep the straight and chasers from calling, and guy calls with a gutshot, then on river hits his shot, and of course,"he felt it".

everyone is a fucking pro nowadays. the best game i found was 1/2 N/L 100max buyin(or 200max). was great games and found less chasers than the bigger stakes games. you could actually get top pair to fold on a bluff, if you played your hand correct. Or you could get caught trying to steal, but was great games, bellagio was a waste of time for me

buckeye_in_sc · Post by **buckeye_in_sc** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:14 pm

^^^^^^^^

Glad to know some of that...I found the best 4/8 game I have played in Vegas was Venetian...the 3/6 at Mirage had it's fair share of chasers as well...but these games allow you to chase as well since no one usually makes it 2 bets or whatever on the turn...mostly people check the flop...make a crying call on the turn...then of course when you or they hit...you make it two bets on the river and most people are already pot committed with top pair or top two they have to call and you rake a deece pot with your gutshot...

i understand chasers are everywhere don't get me wrong...but it doesn't mean we have to like it...I do like playing the 1/2 NL...actually 2/5 NL seems to be pretty good as well...

i have a game plan in Vegas...going to play the $230 Wed night at the Mirage, the $180 Veneitian...like these because of starting chip stack and level time...and then going to stick mostly with 3/6 and 4/8 limit although I might give the 6/12 limit a run at Mirage...or 1/2 NL with buying in for the max...

then play $65 tourneys at paris most of the other time...they run them every two hours until 9:30pm...

if anyone has any other information on cash games with fish in vegas let SC know...

Mook · Post by **Mook** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:52 pm

Damn....I had a big write-up on all the cardrooms on the Vegas but I lost it. Oh well, I'm not doing that again. Anyway, I'm in Vegas several days a month for work. So I've had the opportunity to play in almost all the cardrooms in town. The clientele in most of the strip hotel cardrooms is the same. They look different and have different income levels but they play cards the same way, poorly. It is not an exaggeration to say that 5-6 players at any table are nearly incompetent poker players. Learn who these players are and play pots with them. Pay close attention to hands where you are mixing it up with the few competent players at the table. I've played lots of limit and NL at a variety of levels in Vegas. Personally I think the $1/$2 NL games are the loosest and easiest to beat. If you can't figure out how to beat this game you seriously need to get a new hobby!! Also, Vegas games are some of the friendliest you'll ever play. Nearly everybody is a tourist and on vacation. A by-product of this is they are in very good moods. It makes the games fun. You'll notice the locals easily, they're the ones wearing I-Pods and generally acting like they'd be having a better time at the proctologist's office. They can loosen and up and be quite nice, but it takes a lot of work.

There are very nice rooms at Venetian, Wynn, Mirage, Bellagio, Caesar's, Mandalay and MGM. Of these, I personally like MGM the best. It isn't necessarily the nicest but I've always had good service and a good time there. I also like the Venetian because it's the hotel where I laid one of the worst beats in history on some poor guy. I'm pretty sure he wanted to fight me after that hand.

Rooms that aren't so nice but are very profitable are at Flamingo, Palms, Tropicana and Excalibur. Flamingo and Excalibur are lower stakes only but they are beautiful games to be involved in. Tropicana is a dreadful room with dreadful players.

The Orleans is full of locals and are tight games with little action and miserable people. If this is what you are looking for, I highly recommend the Orleans. Silverton has a nice little room well off the strip if you ever find yourself down there.

Downtown is another monster. Games can be found at the Plaza, Binion's and the Nugget. All are fairly comparable in terms of competition. The Nugget is much the nicest downtown.

I've foudn good service in terms of drinks at most rooms. Venetian really sucks in this regard and I"m not sure why. Bellagio is a good place to go to see celebrities of both the poker and non-poker variety. Wynn NL games have no max buy-in. It can be tough because usually there are a couple of monster stacks that bully there way through the games. Luxor sucks because there 1/2 max is $50 which is ludicrous.

I'd be happy to answer questions about any of the casinos if you anybody has any. I've spent a lot of time in all these hotels and at their core, they are all the same. The games in Vegas on the strip are very beatable. It just depends what kind of surroundings you like to sit in! If you don't spot at least 5 suckers in a game, ask for a table change because that kind of table exists!!

Mook · Post by **Mook** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:15 pm

I apologize for all the typos in the above post. Terribly done!!

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:26 pm

I thought it was outstanding, myself. Didn't notice any typos severe enough to cloud any of the key points.

Pretty good primer for anyone unfamiliar with the various cardrooms of Vegas.

buckeye_in_sc · Post by **buckeye_in_sc** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:30 pm

absolutely....

again I have played in some...mostly limit and you can even become a chaser at say 2/4 or 3/6 limit...heck why not...

played some 2/5 NL at Venetian back in October...a little bigger jump for me...but held my own for about 45 minutes before I jetted off to catch the OSU game (that's Ohio State not OKIE or Oregon State)...made one big mistake when I flopped a nut flush draw and bet the flop and checked the turn (like a dumb ass) and then tried to take it on the river against one player...left up about $45 bucks or so...

so I held my own...some bad play though...one dude went busto in like 20 minutes $200 by playing just stupid...wish I could have been in a pot with that jackass...

I file a report when I return...not going for a couple more weeks but hey...got to look forward to something right...

Tyrone · Post by **Tyrone** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:45 pm

I play very conservatively and more often than not I leave the casino ahead $500 - $1000 or more. I love it when people are at the table and playing EVERY hand - especially when they are drunk and you can tell they are only there on the weekends with the other farmers. Over time these losers will be tapped out even though they can have a lucky streak. Stick to the basics and know what you are doing and you can pull in some nice $$.