How was Church?

[Felix]

don't take what I'm saying the wrong way here tart...certainly there are life lessons to be taken from the Bible, things about morality, being kind to your fellow man, treating everyone as you would want to be treated, etc. etc.......

all valuable lessons......the Bible is a good book....

but it's not the only book....

if you don't buy what I've posted above we are wasting our time by discussing them, aren't we ... ?

yep, we'd be wasting our time......

[Rootbeer]

When I posted that take about godless heathens eating children I should have posted a tongue-in-cheek emoticon, I guess.

This thread has taken an interesting turn.

Poptart, I believe we would agree on far more things than we disagree. I'm down with most everything you posted regarding the essence of the Bible. I am curious about your interpretation of John 4:24 in relation to Hebrews 12:29. If you take John literally then do you also take Hewbrews literally?

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

I'm not setting you up or badgering. I'm really not. I would like to have an open discussion and look for the common ground between us.

[Rootbeer]

but it's not the only book....

Sincerely,
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

[Felix]

When I posted that take about godless heathens eating children I should have posted a tongue-in-cheek emoticon, I guess.

posting an emoticon would go against everything you've espoused in here....don't do it.....

but seeing as how we're talking all friendly like, maybe you could answer a question for me about Mormonism.....

how is it that a seemingly rational human being in most every other aspect of life can essentially toss reasonableness out the window and buy into a religion like the Latter Day Saints.....

and don't go all tart on me and accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about, because I've been around mormons all of my life and have a pretty good understanding of the core beliefs....

[Felix]

but it's not the only book....

Sincerely,
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

you're not going to try and tell me the Book of Mormon is a "companion" book to the Bible are you.....

puhleeeeese......

[StankHo]

Go out and kill and eat children or whatever it is you heathens do.

After a few taste tests I have determined that a BBQ Sauce and Ranch dressing combo has it all over just a mayo slathering on toast meal. I will fight anybody that tells me a fetus tastes better than a milk fed 2 year old though. That talk is just crazy. I have a barn full of one year old kids being fed a steady diet of milk and beer at this moment. One more year and I'm going to be one stuffed heathen.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

godless heathens eating children

I doubt anybody actually took that part literally, but the point you were trying to convey was pretty clear.

But, considering some of the sheer lunacy you rationality-out-the-door, set-in-stone, not-up-for-debate biblefolk believe in, I wouldn't have completely ruled it out.

[StankHo]

godless heathens eating children

I doubt anybody actually took that part literally, but the point you were trying to convey was pretty clear.

But, considering some of the sheer lunacy you rationality-out-the-door, set-in-stone, not-up-for-debate biblefolk believe in, I wouldn't have completely ruled it out.

Dude! You have it all figured out! If you ever start a church...Count me in as a follower. Do you think you'll have beer nuts and rum for communion instead that ol boring bread and wine?

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Nope, still not funny.

Still not landing those RACKS like you so desperately desire.

Obscure pop culture references are usually a good start. You can DO THIS, shit troll! I believe in you!

[StankHo]

Still not landing those RACKS like you so desperately desire.

Obscure pop culture references are usually a good start. You can DO THIS, shit troll! I believe in you!

Ok Father, does this do it for you?




I like seeing self rightous blowhards spouting off about things that they don't understand and shitting on folks that at least have a stand.

[poptart]

Poptart, I believe we would agree on far more things than we disagree. I'm down with most everything you posted regarding the essence of the Bible. I am curious about your interpretation of John 4:24 in relation to Hebrews 12:29. If you take John literally then do you also take Hewbrews literally?

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

John 4:24 is taken literally because it is cross-referenced by overwhelming Scripture showing exactly that -- that God is spirit.

John 1:18: No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Also, Col 1:15, I Tim 6:16, Rom 1:20, I Tim 1:17, Luke 24:29 ....... and much much more within the Bible.

Heb 12:29 (written to the Jews) is pointing to what was written in Deuteronomy 4:24, For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Moses was warning the Israelites against idolatry in Deuteronomy 4.
Also Deut 9:3, Ex 24:17.
These verses indicate a judgement of God -- essentially against worshipping idols rather than Him.

God's judgement is also indicated as fire in the New Testament, Matt 25:41, II Thes 1:8, I Cor 3:13,15.

'God as fire' indicates God's judgement, and the verse that you brought up (Heb 12:29), is preceeded (v.28 ) by exhortations to serve God with reverence and fear. Fear because we have knowledge that God does indeed judge.

So bottom line, God is spirit, not a consuming fire.
Consuming fire is His judgement.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

I like seeing self rightous blowhards spouting off about things that they don't understand and shitting on folks that at least have a stand.

Word. That's what we come here for. I'm glad you've seen the light.

[StankHo]

A mental representation of the meaning or significance of something. Mind over matter.

[Mister Bushice]

So bottom line, God is spirit,

Well, there goes my Randy California theory.

[The Whistle Is Screaming]

It's easy to cherry pick verses and try to sell that they are saying something that they aren't.

Heb 12:29 (written to the Jews) is pointing to what was written in Deuteronomy 4:24, For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Moses was warning the Israelites against idolatry in Deuteronomy 4.

Poptart,
You brought the funnay like no one before you with that statement. RACK!!!!!

BTW Deut 24 is:

For HaShem thy G-d is a devouring fire, a jealous G-d.

and means very little on it's own without the context of verses 1-23 & 25-49. It speaks to the delivery of Gods covenent, the 10 commandments, etc. & the reasons it must be followed, idolatry is just 1 piece of all that.

Actually I believe it's pretty much agreed that he was a carpenter prior to beginning his ministry and not wandering punch drunk about the desert.

I know drunken carpenter whose words need some translation ... I wonder...

[poptart]

TWIS, I 'cherry picked' Deut 4:24 only because the verse R'beer asked about (Heb 12:29) was written to mirror the phrase that was used in Deuteronomy 4:24.
And it's no coincidence that Paul used that phrase in his writings to a JEWISH AUDIENCE - who were extremely keen to what was written in Deuteronomy.
And you would agree, I believe, that Deut 4:24 is speaking of God's judgement, and not that God is literally a consuming fire, as Rooty was asking about.

You're right about idolatry being only one part of what was written in Deuteronomy 4.

Break the Covenant and idol worship follows in short order.
Sort of the history of the Jewish people in the Old Testament.
Sort of the history of all men.

[BSmack]

TWIS, I 'cherry picked' Deut 4:24 only because the verse R'beer asked about (Heb 12:29) was written to mirror the phrase that was used in Deuteronomy 4:24.
And it's no coincidence that Paul used that phrase in his writings to a JEWISH AUDIENCE - who were extremely keen to what was written in Deuteronomy.

You're right about idolatry being only one part of what was written in Deuteronomy 4.

Break the Covenant and idol worship follows in short order.

I guess that explains this...

[poptart]

Basically, yes.

[Felix]

It's easy to cherry pick verses and try to sell that they are saying something that they aren't.

exactly how does one go about "cherry picking" verses of a book that is allegedly inerrant?

[The Whistle Is Screaming]

TWIS, I 'cherry picked' Deut 4:24 only because the verse R'beer asked about (Heb 12:29) was written to mirror the phrase that was used in Deuteronomy 4:24.
And it's no coincidence that Paul used that phrase in his writings to a JEWISH AUDIENCE - who were extremely keen to what was written in Deuteronomy.

You're right about idolatry being only one part of what was written in Deuteronomy 4.

Break the Covenant and idol worship follows in short order.

I guess that explains this...

Sorry B, but nothing explains that pic, it's just wrong.

[The Whistle Is Screaming]

It's easy to cherry pick verses and try to sell that they are saying something that they aren't.

exactly how does one go about "cherry picking" verses of a book that is allegedly inerrant?

By taking 1 verse and attempting to let it stand on it's own. Like the Deut 4:24 passage noted above. It means very little by itself and requires the context of the entire chapter to understand the meaning. By letting it stand alone, some people will mold it to mean whatever they want it to.

[Felix]

By taking 1 verse and attempting to let it stand on it's own.

you mean like Deut 12:32 "What thing so ever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it"

yet I'm pretty sure that both of these commands have been brushed aside......

DEUT. 22:5 "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God"

LEV. 3:17 "It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood"

how does one reconcile these transgressions.....or will it be more of the old standby "that's not what he meant" (s'up Dins)

[Rootbeer]

So bottom line, God is spirit, not a consuming fire.
Consuming fire is His judgement.

I agree almost completely, poptart. Not all passages of scripture are to be extracted and taken literally without relative context. In my personal study I've wondered if that passage in Hebrews also pointed toward the Holy Ghost which is described as a fire.

In regards to the nature of God I see numerous passages that indicate a multi-faceted God. God is a spirit but he is not only a spirit. The Bible also says that God is love. That doesn't mean that God is only love any more than other passages mean he is only a spirit. God created man in His own likeness and image. In Exodus Moses spoke to God "Face to face as a man speaketh to a man". Moses didn't see God with his mortal eyes but with his spiritual eyes and in that same meeting God told Moses that He would "take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen". The Ten Commandments were written by the finger of God. That doesn't mean God is only a finger. God has a mouth and a voice and many characteristics beyond the single-faceted idea that he is a Spirit and only a Spirit.
Jacob claimed to have seen God face to face.

- These are my personal thoughts derived from personal study. I don't claim to speak for the LDS church or any other members therein.

But, considering some of the sheer lunacy you rationality-out-the-door, set-in-stone, not-up-for-debate biblefolk believe in, I wouldn't have completely ruled it out.

When did I say I was irrational and not open to debate? I'm always interested in an honest exchange of ideas. It seems to me that there's too much yelling on both sides of any argument. Both sides are certain of their own idealogical superiority and they can't learn anything from people that disagree with them. I disagree with that. If rational heads will prevail we can all learn from each other.

how is it that a seemingly rational human being in most every other aspect of life can essentially toss reasonableness out the window and buy into a religion like the Latter Day Saints.....

and don't go all tart on me and accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about, because I've been around mormons all of my life and have a pretty good understanding of the core beliefs....

Spirituality is not rationality, Felix. Just ask MGO or Dinsdale. They claim to have the market on rationality cornered and they don't believe in anything beyond the mortal capacity of man.

Why people join the LDS church is a personal decision and I can't speak for anyone but myself. I am a member because I believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God. I believe the great apostasy has come to an end and the gross darkness prophesied by Isaiah has been lifted by virtue of the grace of God through His servant Joseph Smith, Jr. The Latter Days are upon us. The Stick of Joseph prophesied in Ezekiel has been joined with the Stick of Judah for the benefit of man and the salvation of the world. The priesthood is on the earth again. With that priesthood come the keys to the new and everlasting covenant. These are things to be excited about. There is a Prophet of God on the earth again! How cool is that?

[The Whistle Is Screaming]

By taking 1 verse and attempting to let it stand on it's own.

you mean like Deut 12:32 "What thing so ever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it"

yet I'm pretty sure that both of these commands have been brushed aside......

DEUT. 22:5 "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God"

LEV. 3:17 "It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood"

how does one reconcile these transgressions.....or will it be more of the old standby "that's not what he meant" (s'up Dins)

That's not what I meant, and you know it. :bigwinkingsmiley:

I may attempt to you the split thread function and move this to the Religion forum, it's getting to serious for Main Street. If I fail and all this is lost, sorry, but it must have been GOD and gods will.

[Felix]

I am a member because I believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God.

not trying to attack your beliefs here, but how could God have been so wrong about so many of the things in the Book of Mormon....

Silk, Horses, Steel, Iron, Coins, Donkeys, Cattle, Cow, Oxen, Pigs, Grain and Wheat are referenced in the Book of Mormon, yet there is no archelogical evidence that any of these things existed in Ancient America between 600 B.C. and A.D. 421...surely you'd think they'd at least be able to uncover some evidence......

further, you'd think that with space so limited on the golden plates, that God would have cut down on the number of "it came to pass"es (3,856 "it came to pass"es to be exact).....

why was it necessary to make over 3500 corrections for grammatical and spelling errors and 500 corrections for doctrinal, historical and inconsistencies if it was the word of God......

[Dinsdale]

Silk, Horses, Steel, Iron, Coins, Donkeys, Cattle, Cow, Oxen, Pigs, Grain and Wheat are referenced in the Book of Mormon, yet there is no archelogical evidence that any of these things existed in Ancient America between 600 B.C. and A.D. 421...surely you'd think they'd at least be able to uncover some evidence......

Then there's that pesky bit about how science has used DNA to pretty much prove the ancestral claims within are pretty much bullshit...there is that.

why was it necessary to make over 3500 corrections for grammatical and spelling errors and 500 corrections for doctrinal, historical and inconsistencies if it was the word of God......

Dude...why don't you try writing a book with your face buried in a hat, and see how well you do.

[Felix]

Dude...why don't you try writing a book with your face buried in a hat, and see how well you do.

^^^^^ that had me laughing out loud......

[Dinsdale]

Of course, just sticking your face into a hat isn't going to do it by itself. You need to drop Uma Thurman in there first.

[bbqjones]

ive tried three times to see the bbqjones reference in this thread. was it funny? im sure it was about my fat church going wife.

help

[Rootbeer]

I am a member because I believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God.

not trying to attack your beliefs here, but how could God have been so wrong about so many of the things in the Book of Mormon....

The Lamanites and Nephites utterly destroyed themselves, each other, and their societies. What happened between then and the Spaniards is information none of us are privy to. God loves his children. ALL of them. He would not leave them in darkness. The people that would become known as the Mayans, Aztecs, and Native American tribes were visited by Christ in their past. The Book of Mormon is that history. Why archaeologists haven't uncovered "evidence" is neither here nor there. If you're honest with yourself you'll admit that if they did uncover horse skeletons from that era you still wouldn't believe in the Book of Mormon. It's not a lack of physical evidence that causes your unbelief. The Bible speaks often of Dragons. How many 4000 year-old dragon skeletons have been exhumed in the old world? None. That doesn't make the Bible false.

And it came to pass is used frequently because it's a valid phrase. Fewer than 1400 uses, btw, not 3,856. The bible uses it or a derivative hundreds of times. The golden plates were not written in modern day english and most likely the character used to denote "and it came to pass" didn't take up that much space. The Mayans used the phrase in many of their writings. The words they used: Ut, Itwal, uchi meant "it came to pass" or a close derivative of same.

Regarding corrections to the Book of Mormon. I believe the Bible to be the word of God so far as it is translated correctly. I believe the same about the Book of Mormon. If corrections needed to be made it was because of problems with human translation. Translators would take dictation from Joseph Smith for many hours on end. Tell you what I'll read The Illiad to you for twelve straight hours and we'll see how many mistakes you make.

[Felix]

The Lamanites and Nephites utterly destroyed themselves, each other, and their societies. What happened between then and the Spaniards is information none of us are privy to. God loves his children. ALL of them. He would not leave them in darkness.

no offense hoss, but none of this has anything to do with the question asked.

The people that would become known as the Mayans, Aztecs, and Native American tribes were visited by Christ in their past. The Book of Mormon is that history. Why archaeologists haven't uncovered "evidence" is neither here nor there.

uncovering support for the very foundation your religion is based on is "neither here nor there"?
you mormon dudes fuggin crack me up......

If you're honest with yourself you'll admit that if they did uncover horse skeletons from that era you still wouldn't believe in the Book of Mormon. It's not a lack of physical evidence that causes your unbelief.

that's exactly what my disbelief stems from....you'd think they could come up with some swords or Chariots, or any of the other things written about in the BoM........archeologists have uncovered many artifacts from ancient America, just not any that your Book claims were there.....

The Bible speaks often of Dragons. How many 4000 year-old dragon skeletons have been exhumed in the old world? None. That doesn't make the Bible false.

no, the Bible is a fairy tale...and not a very good one at that......

And it came to pass is used frequently because it's a valid phrase. Fewer than 1400 uses, btw, not 3,856.

after the corrections, I guess that might be right....but I have it on pretty good authority that it was used 3,800+ times, but that's not really the point.....I would think a couple of "it came to pass"es with a "so it was" would probably be sufficient.....

The bible uses it or a derivative hundreds of times.

so your using one fairy tale to prove another? sorry, that's not really convincing......

The golden plates were not written in modern day english and most likely the character used to denote "and it came to pass" didn't take up that much space. The Mayans used the phrase in many of their writings. The words they used: Ut, Itwal, uchi meant "it came to pass" or a close derivative of same.

okay, that makes it a lot clearer......(not really, but I'll humor you here)

Regarding corrections to the Book of Mormon. I believe the Bible to be the word of God so far as it is translated correctly. I believe the same about the Book of Mormon.

so you're saying that modern day writers are better equipped to translate the dictations of Joseph Smith better than those that were there? gotcha.......

If corrections needed to be made it was because of problems with human translation.

let me ask you this....if it was related to human translation, who was it that was pointing out the errors and how did this person know they were errors?

Translators would take dictation from Joseph Smith for many hours on end. Tell you what I'll read The Illiad to you for twelve straight hours and we'll see how many mistakes you make.

what you're saying here is that the only person qualified to correct the translation was in fact Joseph Smith....

so why were so many corrections to the Book made after he'd already died?

why do you suppose he was in such a hurry to complete the BoM? after all, the Bible was written over thousands of years......

[Dinsdale]

I'm pretty disappointed over getting no love for the "Uma Thurman" crack-btw.

[Mister Bushice]

The Lamanites

Who?

The artifacts they left behind can be found in which museum?

Home Depot. In the flooring department.

[Felix]

The Lamanites and Nephites utterly destroyed themselves

Who?

they built earthen mounds in the eastern part of the USA....

These alleged cultures lived where...exactly? The artifacts they left behind can be found in which museum?

"the people spread from north to south and from sea to sea (Mormon 1.17), building fortified cities with temples and synagogues (Helaman 3.8-9). They had metallurgy (Jarom 1.8, 2 Nephi 5.15, Alma 43.18-19), wheat and barley (Mosiah 9.9), coinage (Helaman 3.7-12, Alma 11.5-20), domesticated elephants, horses, cattle, sheep, goats and pigs (Ether 9.17-19), an organised religion based around temples and synagogues (Jerom 1.8, Helaman 3.9), silk and linen (Alma 4.6, Ether 10.24), a written language known as Reformed Egyptian (Helaman 3.15, Mormon 9.32) (reformed Egyptian????) and a military technology that included archery and chariots (3 Nephi 3:22)"

look, if that isn't proof enough then I can't help you......

rack the Uma shot Dins....

[The Whistle Is Screaming]

I'm pretty disappointed over getting no love for the "Uma Thurman" crack-btw.

To further your dissappointment (or not), I* need "help" with the funnay.






* Gonna say about 99% of T1b needs it to, but that may not add to your dissappointment.

[Dinsdale]

Sheesh...it's no fun if you have to explain it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urim_and_Thummim


Man, if you people want to bash Mormonism, fine. It's a hip thing to do, in my book. But at least know something about it before you denounce it...only seems fair.


And the more you learn about it, the more fun it becomes to denounce. The man was a fortune teller in a carnival guessing people's weight before he came up with a more lucrative scam...how can you not get a giggle out of that?

[Dinsdale]

You're thinking of the Linoleumites.

Who were constantly at war with the Formicites. Right up until the day that the Corians brought improved technology to the battle, and quickly took over.

[G.O.]

I'm pretty disappointed over getting no love for the "Uma Thurman" crack-btw.

i got it. and it was funny, too. :D

felix, if youre saying parts of the bible are 'fairy tales', i get that. lots of parables and illustrative stories. but the NT is actually very solid, as well as much of the OT.

the BOM is in a whole other ballpark- there is practically nothing historical about it. and the blind faith it requires to believe it is not my cup of tea. defendable faith, on the other hand, i can handle.

[Mister Bushice]

Who?

The artifacts they left behind can be found in which museum?

Home Depot. In the flooring department.

You're thinking of the Linoleumites. They were a tribe of Yiddish time travelers who visted North America in 400BC to bring matzoh and fine, wear resistant floor covering to the benighted savages of the New World payable in easily affordable monthly installments.

You don't know what the fuck you are talking about. The Lamanites broke away from the linoleumite tribe during the vinyl wars. Then, led by floor General Von Kantzow, wandered about for 40 years and an additional 40 nights before they founded the settlement of Pergo.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

The Lamanites and Nephites utterly destroyed themselves

Who?

These alleged cultures lived where...exactly? The artifacts they left behind can be found in which museum?

Bingo.

The LDS Church was founded near where I am (they hold their annual Hill Cumorah shindig about 40 minutes away), and despite the fact that we've dug around enough to have found at least two mastodon skeletons in the area, it seems odd that there is not one shred of archeological evidence corroborating the Book of Mormon's claims for the cultures it discusses. None. No evidence of any massive battle. No weapons or armor resulting from the smelting of ores. No folks on horseback dying near their steeds. Nothing.

Oh....and they've proven pretty damned conclusively that Native Americans are NOT a "lost tribe of Israel." They're Asian-descended folk.

Don't even get me started on honeybees and the horse thing.

The scientific errors in the legit Bible are at least understandable, what with the primitive level of science thousand of years ago. The scientific errors in the BoM reflect Joseph Smith's personal lack of scientific education. And at least the Bible has actual credible, verifiable parts in it with actual people (Caesar Augustus, Paul, etc.) and historical events. Ain't nothing like that in the BoM.

And yes, I've read the BoM. I lifted a copy while staying at a Marriot during a fraternity convention in the 80's (the family that owned the chain was Mormon and stocked the nightstands with both a Gideon's Bible and a BoM). The thing reads like a bad fusion of the KJV with Tolkien and bad anthropology mixed in.

I have no personal beef with LDS folks...they seem pretty nice....but when their missionaries try to sell their religious cult to me, I like to point out the countless biological errors and politely send them on their way.