How was Church?

[Felix]

but the NT is actually very solid, as well as much of the OT.

I could have a field day with this statement, but it's best left for another forum and another thread......

[velocet]

The scientific errors in the legit Bible are at least understandable, what with the primitive level of science thousand of years ago.

Scientific errors in anything touted as the Word of God are hardly understandable.




velocet

[Mike the Lab Rat]

The scientific errors in the legit Bible are at least understandable, what with the primitive level of science thousand of years ago.

Scientific errors in anything touted as the Word of God are hardly understandable.




velocet

As I've discussed/debated with 'tart before, my attitude is that the bible is the Word of God....as filtered through His human scribes. There'd be little point in God trying to explain to the ancient Israelites that bats are not birds, that spiders are not insects, that rabbits do not chew cud, that the earth is actually billions of years old, how evolution through natural selection works, the mechanisms of meiosis and mitosis, genetics, epidemiology, germ theory of disease (well, actually, that WOULD have been helpful...), astronomy, geology, etc.

The Bible has scientific errors. That's a fact. That in no way casts doubt on its authority as a book of faith. It casts doubt on its authority as a science text...which only morons and the hoplelessly deluded by into...

The errors in the BoM, on the other hand, are endless and unexcusable. The novel entirely hinges on the existence two mythical tribes that no scientific evidence can find evidence of, and it makes egregious errors in what species were present at the alleged time of the events and makes utterly unfounded claims as to the origin of the Native Americans. It is 100% bullshit from page one onward.

[Tom In VA]

The scientific errors in the legit Bible are at least understandable, what with the primitive level of science thousand of years ago.

Scientific errors in anything touted as the Word of God are hardly understandable.




velocet

Wouldn't it be funny if we all got to "heaven" and found out from God ....

"It wasn't called gravity you idjits, it was called "jkhdkjhdfk", Me you people are stupid. Keep it simple, that's what it was all about, but no you invent "Latin" and silly things like ..... "Genus" ? bwahahahahahaha, it's called a "Bhfgffgsdjkjjksdd". You humans are constantly complicating the simplest of things. I gave you people this stuff you call "Minute Rice" and you complicate that.". Oh well, grab a seat at the table, welcome home chil'ren, Thank Me, I'm merciful, benevolent and just. "



Pride leadeth or some such thing, before the fall. that is.

[Mister Bushice]

The scientific errors in the legit Bible are at least understandable, what with the primitive level of science thousand of years ago.

Scientific errors in anything touted as the Word of God are hardly understandable.




velocet

As I've discussed/debated with 'tart before, my attitude is that the bible is the Word of God....as filtered through His human scribes. There'd be little point in God trying to explain to the ancient Israelites that bats are not birds, that spiders are not insects, that rabbits do not chew cud, that the earth is actually billions of years old, how evolution through natural selection works, the mechanisms of meiosis and mitosis, genetics, epidemiology, germ theory of disease (well, actually, that WOULD have been helpful...), astronomy, geology, etc.

The Bible has scientific errors. That's a fact. That in no way casts doubt on its authority as a book of faith. It casts doubt on its authority as a science text...which only morons and the hoplelessly deluded by into...

The errors in the BoM, on the other hand, are endless and unexcusable. The novel entirely hinges on the existence two mythical tribes that no scientific evidence can find evidence of, and it makes egregious errors in what species were present at the alleged time of the events and makes utterly unfounded claims as to the origin of the Native Americans. It is 100% bullshit from page one onward.

So the next time one of those mormon teams knocks on my door, what should I say to piss them off, confuse them, or to possibly leave scars of doubt in their minds?

All I've ever done up until now was "No" SLAM!

[Mike the Lab Rat]

So the next time one of those mormon teams knocks on my door, what should I say to piss them off, confuse them, or to possibly leave scars of doubt in their minds?

All I've ever done up until now was "No" SLAM!

They love it when you ask about their "magic underwear."

I've gotten more LDS freaks to have aneurysms by mocking their "sacred underoos" than any single topic. Google it. It's a hoot.

As far as the BoM scientific howlers, Google is your friend. When I say it's a long list, I'm not kidding.

Basically, I put Mormons in the same category as Scientologists, Christian Scientists, JW's, and spiritualists...nice enough folks to deal with, as long as they don't try to push their religious Amway on me or my family.

[Felix]

So the next time one of those mormon teams knocks on my door, what should I say to piss them off, confuse them, or to possibly leave scars of doubt in their minds?

ask them how Joseph Smith was able to translate the Kinderhook Plates via his magic glasses, which were then later proven to be forgeries......

that always gets them reeling....

[Tom In VA]

Just recite this line from Monty Piethon the Meaning of Life.


"That's what being a Protestant's all about. That's why it's the church for me. That's why it's the church for anyone who respects the individual and the individual's right to decide for him or herself. When Martin Luther nailed his protest up to the church door in fifteen-seventeen, he may not have realised the full significance of what he was doing, but four hundred years later, thanks to him, my dear, I can wear whatever I want on my John Thomas,... [sniff] ...and, Protestantism doesn't stop at the simple condom! Oh, no! I can wear French Ticklers if I want.
French Ticklers. Black Mambos. Crocodile Ribs. Sheaths that are designed not only to protect, but also to enhance the stimulation of sexual congress."

It's really all about sex, drugs, and music in the end.

[War Wagon]

So the next time one of those mormon teams knocks on my door, what should I say?

"Is that the Book of Mormon? Can I have it? Cool! Thanks, I've always wanted one of these."

(turn head)

"Honey, bring me that bottle of lighter fluid. We're gonna' have us a book burning."

[Dinsdale]

[ask them how Joseph Smith was able to translate the Kinderhook Plates via his magic glasses, which were then later proven to be forgeries......

that always gets them reeling....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinderhook_Plates


I love that story.


When confronted with this hilarious twist, they merely pass off the guy who is their great historian, essentailly their "custodian of records"...as a liar.


He wrote that Smith began to translate the plates. 100 years later(or whenever), the church says "that never happened."


What a paradox...they lap up Smith's words as absolute truth, yet his personal assistants and whatnot they have no problem accusing of lying.


PSSSST! The whole darn lot of them were lying, which has been fairy well proven both through science and common sense.

[G.O.]

but the NT is actually very solid, as well as much of the OT.

I could have a field day with this statement, but it's best left for another forum and another thread......

which part, out of curiosity? NT or OT or both?

[Dinsdale]

which part, out of curiosity? NT or OT or both?

Name one civilized society that has ever condoned executing children for poor behavior?




B-b-b-b-b-b-but....that's not what it MEANT!

[Felix]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinderhook_Plates


I love that story.


When confronted with this hilarious twist, they merely pass off the guy who is their great historian, essentailly their "custodian of records"...as a liar.


He wrote that Smith began to translate the plates. 100 years later(or whenever), the church says "that never happened."


What a paradox...they lap up Smith's words as absolute truth, yet his personal assistants and whatnot they have no problem accusing of lying.

the Kinderhook Plate story is something they'd love to shove on some back shelf...unfortunately, they can't....like I say, the only saving grace was that he died before he could publish his "translation".....

PSSSST! The whole darn lot of them were lying, which has been fairy well proven both through science and common sense.

not to mention by their own admission....the three witnesses, that are prominently displayed on the inside cover page of every BoM all eventually admitted they had never actually "seen" the golden tablets, but rather saw them through divine enlightenment.....

did I mention they were all eventually excommunicated.....

again, how any rational thinking human can buy into that horseshit is beyond me.......

[Felix]

which part, out of curiosity? NT or OT or both?

both.....

we could start with Noah's Ark if you like......

how could Noah (who was somewhere between 500 and 600 years old :? ) fit millions of species of animals into a boat that for all intents and purposes contained a total of 1,500,000 (plus of minus) cubic feet...he'd need not only room for the animals, but the feed necessary to sustain them.....

what did they do with the waste from the animals, because they were sealed up in the ark......

how did they account for animals with specialized diets (like a koala bear, which consumes FRESH eucalyptus leaves for both it's food and water)....how did animals like sloths and penguins (who are notoriously slow movers) make it to the Ark on time....they'd of had to start out before Noah was born......

there are over 300,000 species of beetles alone (which alone would probably fill the ark)...there are over 600 species of hummingbirds that consume vast amounts of nectar constantly...how did they accommodate them...what did they do about animals like lions and gazelles (predators and prey)...keep them on different sides of the ark?

how did he make the boat waterproof, because pitch was yet unknown.....how did he effect repairs on the boat.....why did it take God forty days to flood the earth, when he made planets and stars in an instant.....

so many questions so few answers......

[Tom In VA]

again, how any rational thinking human can buy into that horseshit is beyond me.......

It's simple. Hope.


People need hope. Do you go into the football season thinking, "The Broncos suck ass and shouldn't even bother".


Probably not. Every other rational human being thinks so, but not you. Because you need "hope".



Oh fuck it ..... dropping a smiley .... I"m a rebel like that ...

:P

[Felix]

Do you go into the football season thinking, "The Broncos suck ass and shouldn't even bother".

of course that's exactly how I feel.....

bad example....[giantsmiley][/giantsmiley]

[Tom In VA]

Do you go into the football season thinking, "The Broncos suck ass and shouldn't even bother".

of course that's exactly how I feel.....

bad example....[giantsmiley][/giantsmiley]

Aww shucks.

Dan Snyder was beelzebub see, he offered the NFL the forbidden fruit. They ate it.

The Redskins are still in the desert. But Joe Gibbs will lead them out of slavery and to the promised land. Unfortunately, while he'll lead them all the way to just about there .... he'll croak or something.

But they'll still get there.



better example ? lol





P.S. It might not have been called "pitch" but with all those animals, I'm sure all that shit would have made the boat pretty water tight.

[Dinsdale]

not to mention by their own admission....the three witnesses, that are prominently displayed on the inside cover page of every BoM all eventually admitted they had never actually "seen" the golden tablets, but rather saw them through divine enlightenment.....

But they were promised special consideration in the church if they signed affidavits swearing they did in fact witness the dealio.


Caught in another lie.


If there truly was devine intervention, why on earth would anybody's forst reaction be to go grab his buddies then get them to sign freaking affidavits? Laying the groundwork early for the ineveitable lawsuits against him when he started scamming people out of their fortune?


And then the Witnesses pretty much fessed up they they never witnessed anything, and Smith actually wrote their testimony for them...priceless.



Sorry, Mormons. I know you do the things you do in the best of faith, with the best of intentions...but you done been had. OBVIOUSLY.



P.S.: Hey christians and Mormons -- the word really is round. And more than 6000 years old. We know these things for fact. Just as we know for fact there were no Israelites in North America fighting in chariots.




Now, if Old JoJo Smith could put on some funky glasses made out of rocks and translate a BBQJones post...I might entertain the idea of him being a prophet.

[Felix]

how did he make the boat waterproof, because pitch was yet unknown.....

Nonsense.

that may or may not be true (I was always under the impression that pitch, which is a derivative of oil, wasn't discovered until after the "great flood")......

I'm sure G.O. will be thankful he doesn't have to deal with that part of the question......

[Adelpiero]

if i ever see felix and the bible, i will fight them.


and i could take God, if it was mma rules

[Felix]

if i ever see felix and the bible, i will fight them.

best bring your "A" game....I'm officially qualified as a "scourge" of the earth and a heretic....pretty impressive credentials if I do say so myself......

I have no doubt you could kick the Bibles ass.......

[poptart]

In regards to the nature of God I see numerous passages that indicate a multi-faceted God. God is a spirit but he is not only a spirit. The Bible also says that God is love. That doesn't mean that God is only love any more than other passages mean he is only a spirit. God created man in His own likeness and image. In Exodus Moses spoke to God "Face to face as a man speaketh to a man". Moses didn't see God with his mortal eyes but with his spiritual eyes and in that same meeting God told Moses that He would "take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen". The Ten Commandments were written by the finger of God. That doesn't mean God is only a finger. God has a mouth and a voice and many characteristics beyond the single-faceted idea that he is a Spirit and only a Spirit.
Jacob claimed to have seen God face to face.

Love is a spirit.

Jesus told us that God is a spirit.
God created man in His image .... meaning man is, unlike animals, a spiritual being.
God told Moses that nobody can see him and live.

There are MANY instances in the Bible where someone had a 'close encounter' with God.
A voice, a dream, a sound of walking, a cloud, in smoke, and many others .......
But nobody did or can see Him.

Sometimes the Bible uses language which attributes human features to God ... such as 'hand' or 'finger.'
These are anthropomorphisms, as the Lord Jesus Christ has plainly said that God is a spirit.


The question is, why are you interested in God being something other than a spirit .... ?

[poptart]

how could Noah (who was somewhere between 500 and 600 years old :? )......

The Bible routinely gave out ages of 6, 7, 800+ to people before the flood.
It matter of factly did so.

Post-flood the ages immediately went down to the 'normal' ranges we see today.
Obviously there was a drastic climate change post-flood which led to less favorable living conditions for man.

so many questions so few answers......

Your questions show that you have a fundamental misunderstanding about what Noah needed to do, and how it was done.
While your questions about Noah's ark seem to you to be reasonable, they are not.
To cut to the chase, you really don't know which questions you need to ask.
That's obvious.

[BSmack]

how could Noah (who was somewhere between 500 and 600 years old :? )......

The Bible routinely gave out ages of 6, 7, 800+ to people before the flood.
It matter of factly did so.

Post-flood the ages immediately went down to the 'normal' ranges we see today.
Obviously there was a drastic climate change post-flood which led to less favorable living conditions for man.

Or maybe, just maybe the flood never happened and the people before the flood are 100% fictional.

[G.O.]

how did he make the boat waterproof, because pitch was yet unknown.....

Nonsense.

that may or may not be true (I was always under the impression that pitch, which is a derivative of oil, wasn't discovered until after the "great flood")......

I'm sure G.O. will be thankful he doesn't have to deal with that part of the question......

there are alot of christians who see the noah story as a fable or parable. even if true, if one believes in a God who made the earth and everything in it, a big boat is likely within his repertoire.

nice deflection on the pitch thing, btw.

what else? how about NT?

[Felix]

Your questions show that you have a fundamental misunderstanding about what Noah needed to do, and how it was done.
While your questions about Noah's ark seem to you to be reasonable, they are not.
To cut to the chase, you really don't know which questions you need to ask.
That's obvious.

so it's my fault for not asking the right questions and having a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Inerrant Book is saying......gotcha......

it's not only the Mormons that fuggin crack me up......

what else? how about NT?

before we move on, how about you answer the questions I've already posed.....or are you going to stick with that "parable" response.....

[Mikey]

The real story...

There's fella by the name of Noah
Built an ark
Everybody knows he built an ark.
You see
What Noah do? Well he built an ark
But very few people know about
The conversation that went on between the Lord and Noah
You see Noah was in his rec. room
Sawing away, he was making a few things for the home there.
He was a good carpenter

Whoompa, whoompa, whoompa, whoompa
Noah!
Somebody call?
Whoompa, whoompa, whoompa
Noah!
Who is that?
It's the Lord, Noah
Right!

Where are you?
What you want? I've been good.
I want you to build an Ark
Right!
Whats an Ark?
Get some wood build it
300 cubits by 80 cubits by 40 cubits
Right!
Whats a cubit?
Lets see a cubit...I used to know what a cubit was
Well don't worry about that Noah
When you get that done
Go out into the world and
Collect all of the animals in the world by twos
Male and female, and put them into the ark
Right!
Who is this really?

What's going on?
How come you want me to do all these weird things?
I'm going to destory the world
Right!
Am I on Candid Camera?

How you gonna do it?
I'm gonna make it rain for a thousand days and drown 'em right out
Right!
Listen to this, you'll save water
Let it rain for 40 days and 40 nights
And wait for the sewers back up
Right!

I just wondering,
What would be the effect of an Ark on the average neighbour?
Now, here's a guy going to work, 7 o'clock in the morning
Noahs next door neighbour and he sees the Ark.
Hey!
You up there!
What you want?
What is this?
It's an Ark
Aha
You wanna get it outta my driveway?
I gotta get to work
Listen, what this thing for anyway?
I can't tell you
Hahahahaha!
Well, I mean can't you give me a little hint?
You wanna a hint?
Yes, please
How long can you tread water?
Hahahah!

'Course Noah had a heck of a job really
He had to go out and collect
All the animals in the world, by two's
Two mosquitoes, male or female
And, uh, he had to keep telling the rabbits
Only two, only two, only two.
So we find Noah pulling up the last two animals
Two hippos and he's really in a hurry to get em up
Because hes afraid that the Lords gonna call him
And ask him to do something else
And his nevers are shot
This is one heck of a job for a man 600 years old

So we find him pulling up the two last hippos
And of course the Lord does call him there
Com'on fat hippos hurry up
Com'on will you please?
Noah!
What? What you want?
Gotta take one of those hippos out
And bring in another one
What for?
'Cause you got two males down there
And you need to bring in a female
I'm not bringin' nothin' in
You change one of em'
Com'on you know I don't work like that.

Well I'm sick and tired of this I've had enough of this stuff
I've been working all day
Working on it for days and days
I'm sick and tired of this
Noah!
Yeah?
How long can you tread water?

Yeah, well I got news for you
I'm sick and tired of this whole mess
The whole neigbourhood's out there laughing at me
They're all having a grand time
At good old old Noah there
I went out there at my best friend Larry
I've been talking to the Lord, Larry
Larry said
Oh, really
Yeah yeah
Lord, Larry, Larry, Lord
You walked off laughing
And I hear 'em all laughing at me
You know I'm the only guy in this neighbourhood with an Ark?
People around here laughing
Picket signs walking up and down
I'm sick and tired of this stuff here
People walking around here
How you doing Tarzan?
How's everything up there?.
Sick and tired of this mess here
You supposed to know all and see all
You let me go out there
And bring in a pregnant elephant
You give me no manual for delivery or nuthin'
Never told me the thing was pregnant
There's good old Naoh waitin' underneath the elephant there
Brrrrroooooooooom
Right on top
Sick and tired of this mess here
Had enough all this stuff
For you runnin' around
You supposed to know all and see all
Like I said before
You let me go out there and do all this stuff here
You never even looked in the bottom of that Ark
Have you looked down there?
No?
Who's gonna clean up that mess down there?
That's me
I tell you I've had enough of this stuff
I tell you what I'm gonna do
I'm letting all these animals out
And I'm gonna burn down this Ark
And I'm going to Florida somewhere
'Cause you haven't done nothin'
I'm sick and tired of all this mess
You foolin' around
And you haven't done nothing!

And you got it rainin'
It's not a shower is it?
Ok Lord me and you right
'Cause I knew it all the time

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

It's a shame PastorBobTilton is wasting his energy over at a place that doesn't appreciate him, when threads like this are screaming for his presence.

[Mikey]

Obviously there was a drastic climate change post-flood which led to less favorable living conditions for man.

Drastic climate changes leave evidence behind.

Where is it?

The fact that men lived for 800 years before and only like 40 years after should be enough to convince you.

[Felix]

Drastic climate changes leave evidence behind.

Where is it?

look, if your not going to buy into the whole "You gotta have faith" argument espoused by the believers, well there is simply no hope for you.....

why do you suppose that only two of the gospel "writers" seemingly knew of the "virgin" birth of Jesus......

I'd think that'd be some pretty big news, but apparently Mark and John didn't feel in necessary to report it.....the apostle Paul never mentioned it either, although he did mention that Jesus was born from the lineage of David (Romans 1:3) and did note that he was "born of a woman" (Galatians 4:4), but no mention of her being a "virgin".....

oh, I guess ^^^^^ this might serve as a NT quandry for G.O.....

in any event, it's very weird....

[Cornhusker]

All this could've been put to bed long ago if Mikey would have posted The Old Testament according to Cosby much earlier.

[Jay in Phoenix]

Mikey,

Priceless Cosby reset. I still have all of his old albums. One of the best comic storytellers of our time.

Favorite line, "Am I on Candid Camera?"

Rack.

[velocet]

MtLR I think Tom has the solution: God is trolling us. Hard.

He started the Great Thread in the Sky and all through the replies to it down through the ages there are innumerable "I call bullshit!" and "Rack 'Em!" replies.

God may actually be turning the tables on us with that whole "God the Father" routine: God could be a Chick trolling as a Dude.

But getting back to holy books, again, the idea that there are errors does not compute. What's wrong isn't the books it's the method. I can't think of a more wretched waste of time than attacking or defending something that derives its authority from Faith. Science (as we know it post-Bacon) and Faith are oil and water. Faith and Reason... what a mixed bag of a sob story that ended up to be. Well, people are still trying it but reconciling the two just makes Faith evaporate at every turn regardless of the care taken. Consider the rational proofs for the existence of God. Verrah interesting concepts and a well intentioned attempt to defend Faith from the attacks of Reason but what the hell kind of Faith does one have if it wilts in the face of probing questions of formal logic and/or the inductive variety?

Obviously those books are best viewed from the vantage point of Faith. Outside of that, where one looks to objectively assess the value of revelatory lit and apply the principle of giving a fair reading it must be in light of what's best named 'wisdom research'.






velocet

[Mikey]

God may actually be turning the tables on us with that whole "God the Father" routine: God could be a Chick trolling as a Dude.

You mean like Vanessa Redgrave in Second Serve?


Oops, sorry. In that one she was a chick trolling as a dude trolling as a chick. Never mind.
It's more like Julie Andrews in Victor Victoria. Wait, it's not that either.

[G.O.]

what else? how about NT?

before we move on, how about you answer the questions I've already posed.....or are you going to stick with that "parable" response.....

i never claimed to have all the answers. i'm just curious to your objections to the bible, in many parts, being a historical document.

you have any beef with the NT?

[Goober McTuber]

i never claimed to have all the answers. i'm just curious to your objections to the bible, in many parts, being a historical document.

You misspelled “hysterical”.

[Felix]

you have any beef with the NT?

this is from six posts above, but what the hell....

why do you suppose that only two of the gospel "writers" seemingly knew of the "virgin" birth of Jesus......

I'd think that'd be some pretty big news, but apparently Mark and John didn't feel it necessary to report it.....the apostle Paul never mentioned it either, although he did mention that Jesus was born from the lineage of David (Romans 1:3) and did note that he was "born of a woman" (big surprise there) (Galatians 4:4), but no mention of her being a "virgin".....

oh, I guess ^^^^^ this might serve as a NT quandry for G.O.....


that ought to get you started.....

let me know when you finish with those problems and I'll get you started on a few more......

[poptart]

You're flailing, Felix.

The virgin birth is REPEATEDLY written of in the New Testament.

All four of the Gospels were written from different perspectives.
No virgin birth written of in Mark ... ?
Big deal.
Early manuscripts of Mark also don't include ....... the resurrection.

The book of John does speak of the virgin birth.
Dialogue between Jesus and the Jews (Jn 8:41,42).
Jesus tell them that, unlike them, God is His Father.
Virgin birth.

Felix, in your mind, what is the most important event in the history of man .... ?

Drastic climate changes leave evidence behind.

Where is it?

Do your own Google.
Yeah, but of course you'll burn your scroll wheel past the 'bad' stuff, and settle in on what fits your notions.

We can play the Google game all day.

Been there, done that.

[poptart]

But getting back to holy books, again, the idea that there are errors does not compute.

There are no errors in the Bible.

There are plenty of misrepresentations by people of what is in the Book, however.

[Tom In VA]

I wonder if the virgin birth can be explained ...... biologically, as a premature ejaculation that didn't quite get in, but got on ....

And you know those sperm, they're like little virii ..... we haven't changed much have we ?


Conception is a miracle as it is, the odds are against it happening. Every conception is a miracle of God .... on loan to science.