Pat Tillman cover up - discussion please

[Arch Angel]

Should those that were in charge from private on up be held accountable for these actions of willful coverup and painting a false pretense that he died as a hero fighting the enemy?

- I heard that they've burned his uniform immediately after to cover up the evidence.
- NCOIC put the base on lockdown in regards to communication and internet.
- That the Rangers have done this before to another Ranger?
- Was there animosity between Tillman and some of his fellow colleagues and they set him up?

[Mister Bushice]

There's another thread or ten around here that covers that stuff extensively, including a wealth of mvscal insults.

The search function is your friend...

[Arch Angel]

I know.

The problem is that those in charge of this wants to cover it up so they don't get in trouble and it goes up a lot higher than we first perceived.


Even though mvcal stated his opinion on it, he was right that those responsible at the beginning should have been relieved of duty, which didn't happen per se.

[OCmike]

I was covered up because it's standard procedure to cover bad incidents up unless you're 1000% positive that the story would leak out to the media(which they should have been in this case).

No one was axed because what they did, though wrong, is SOP. Though it's surprising that at least ONE guy wasn't forced to take early retirement with a bonus.

[See You Next Wednesday]

Why don't you idiots try checking back in once you've acquainted yourselves with the facts.

We're waiting.

[OCmike]

Why don't you idiots try checking back in once you've acquainted yourselves with the facts.

We're waiting.

Take the Caddyshack resets to the smack forum. :D

He must be talking about the "fact" that they originally painted this horrible friendly fire death as a heroic exchange of fire with Taliban forces, where he was outnumbered, yet continued to fight and hooted and hollered to get the other soldiers to fight, the culmination of which resulted in Tillman's death.

[Tom In VA]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Speirs


This guy died recently.

Ronald Speirs was a legend to his fellow soldiers during World War II because of rumors that he had shot twenty to thirty German prisoners of war digging a hole on D-Day under guard. It is rumored that he gave the prisoners cigarettes, gave them a light, and then shot all but one of them. This rumor has sparked much debate among veterans, and fans of Band of Brothers and Stephen Ambrose's book debating such things as:

* Did it actually happen?
* Where did it happen?
* How many prisoners were killed?
* Was he ever called upon this by his superior officers?

Stories from Easy veterans suggest the shootings did take place, including Richard Winters stating that Speirs suggested the rumors were true but never gave any details. However, if the shooting of the prisoners actually took place, its exact location cannot be conclusively determined. Donald Malarkey claimed he heard a Tommy gun firing near the location of the prisoners on D-Day but did not actually see anything. Winters originally heard that the incident took place at Bastogne. Carwood Lipton claimed he heard it occurred in Carentan. Speirs never discussed the rumors publicly.

Richard Winters, in his own book entitled Beyond Band of Brothers: The Memoirs of Major Richard Winters, detailed exactly what did happen when Speirs shot a sergeant in one of his squads for disobeying a direct order in combat. Winters notes that by shooting the sergeant, Speirs saved the lives of many other men. Winters also repeatedly calls Speirs "a born killer” and states that despite making occasional flawed decisions off the battlefield, Speirs was a superb combat commander, which Winters respected immensely. Winters also points out that Speirs did report this incident to his commanding officer and names the officer. However, that officer was killed in action the next day, and the incident was never pursued at any level. Winters suggests that officers higher in the chain of command were so desperate for competent field officers that they could not afford losing one of Speirs' caliber. The soldiers serving under Speirs respected him immensely, but also feared him. This incident eventually faded away officially but became legend among the troops.

Ronald Speirs was portrayed in the HBO/BBC miniseries Band of Brothers by Matthew Settle.

What does it have to do with Tillman ?


Nothing really save for the fact that two heroes of epic magnitude are dead.

Fogs of War

[Tom In VA]

Calling Tillman a "hero of epic magnitude" is laying it on a wee bit thick, Tom. Such hyperbole detracts from the many genuine "heroes of epic magnitude" in our history.

I reckon. From my seat, they are all heroes of epic magnitude though.

Even the Audie Murphies of the world defer accolade and credit to Joe Snuffy.


Sincerely,
Jody

[PSUFAN]

Honestly, mvscal, I just can't figure this out.

They locked down the unit after the incident:

http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/352 ... ticleprint

Then they came up with some other version of the story, which got national airtime - BIG publicity.

Then the Tillman family has to fight tooth and nail to find out the truth?

I'm not alleging a "conspiracy" - I'm simply wondering why there was an understanding that it was a friendly-fire death, but they took their time about reporting it as such? If you KNOW that it went down one way, then you let them go with the TV version of the story...that's not negligent, at very least?

[Goober McTuber]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Speirs


This guy died recently.

Ronald Speirs was a legend to his fellow soldiers during World War II because of rumors that he had shot twenty to thirty German prisoners of war digging a hole on D-Day under guard. It is rumored that he gave the prisoners cigarettes, gave them a light, and then shot all but one of them. This rumor has sparked much debate among veterans, and fans of Band of Brothers and Stephen Ambrose's book debating such things as:

* Did it actually happen?
* Where did it happen?
* How many prisoners were killed?
* Was he ever called upon this by his superior officers?

Stories from Easy veterans suggest the shootings did take place, including Richard Winters stating that Speirs suggested the rumors were true but never gave any details. However, if the shooting of the prisoners actually took place, its exact location cannot be conclusively determined. Donald Malarkey claimed he heard a Tommy gun firing near the location of the prisoners on D-Day but did not actually see anything. Winters originally heard that the incident took place at Bastogne. Carwood Lipton claimed he heard it occurred in Carentan. Speirs never discussed the rumors publicly.

Richard Winters, in his own book entitled Beyond Band of Brothers: The Memoirs of Major Richard Winters, detailed exactly what did happen when Speirs shot a sergeant in one of his squads for disobeying a direct order in combat. Winters notes that by shooting the sergeant, Speirs saved the lives of many other men. Winters also repeatedly calls Speirs "a born killer” and states that despite making occasional flawed decisions off the battlefield, Speirs was a superb combat commander, which Winters respected immensely. Winters also points out that Speirs did report this incident to his commanding officer and names the officer. However, that officer was killed in action the next day, and the incident was never pursued at any level. Winters suggests that officers higher in the chain of command were so desperate for competent field officers that they could not afford losing one of Speirs' caliber. The soldiers serving under Speirs respected him immensely, but also feared him. This incident eventually faded away officially but became legend among the troops.

Ronald Speirs was portrayed in the HBO/BBC miniseries Band of Brothers by Matthew Settle.

What does it have to do with Tillman ?


Nothing really save for the fact that two heroes of epic magnitude are dead.

Fogs of War

OK, I’m not ex-military so maybe I’m missing something here. Dude shot 20 or 30 POWs, so he’s a hero?

[Tom In VA]

IN a day where the politicians in the U.S. and the U.S. public is surrendering to Iraq, Iran, Syria, Al Queda etc.. etc...

It just shows the caliber of leader that existed in a war the U.S. won .....


vs.

A war the U.S. is surrendering.


Try RTWFL next time.

[PSUFAN]

It makes sense to repeat this to you, Tom, as you moon about the glories gone by...

The Iraq conflict is not the same type of conflict as WWII.

Coming to a collective realization that the morass in Iraq is, in a traditional sense, unwinnable is actually a victory. But more importantly - win/lose doesn't apply. We killed the bad guy that everyone hated...now we're sitting on top of a wasp's nest. We're not fighting a nation, we're fighting to maintain our own way of life - our easy access to a tremendously high percentage of the Earth's resources.

All of this blubbering about us "surrendering" is schlocked straight down from the spinsmiths - who are pulling the wool over your eyes. Even the Bush administration is trying to find the best way to disengage. One of the methods employed by their more fervent apologists is to try to frame the prior errors in judgment in ways that they find palatable and politically tenable - the Dems made us do it, etc.

The more of this tripe that you spoon up, the more obese with shit you become. For God's sake, take a clear look at Iraq and take a pass on shoveling the "we're surrendering" horseshit.

[Goober McTuber]

Tom,

Doesn’t shooting POWs run counter to the Geneva Convention? That’s how our “greatest generation” won The Big One? That’s the kind of “leader” you want to glorify?

[Tom In VA]

Coming to a collective realization that the morass in Iraq is, in a traditional sense, unwinnable is actually a victory.



All of this blubbering about us "surrendering" is schlocked straight down from the spinsmiths - who are pulling the wool over your eyes.

You're entitled to your opinion and I don't believe any "wool" has been pulled over my eyes by anyone. Even though this guy might be right ..... what the fuck else are we supposed to do ?

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/

You line up in this guy's camp though ....



Please ship me some of the Kool-Aid this guy is hawking and maybe I'll be 1/16th on the same page as you.

I doubt it.


BTW "All of this blubbering about us "surrendering" is schlocked straight down from the spinsmiths"

What "spinsmiths" ? I'd be interested to see where you're misconceptions of my "sources" are.





There's a difference between disengaging and surrendering ... true. Unfortunately the real spinsmiths will view anything we do short of decimating the entire country and annexing it ala Post War Germany as "surrender".

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... rview.html

[Tom In VA]

Tom,

That’s how our “greatest generation” won The Big One? That’s the kind of “leader” you want to glorify?

That was rumour. Nobody knew if he did that. But the "greatest generation" won The Big One, because they had balls.

In short. Yes. Spiers was by all accounts an exceptional combat leader.

The Memoirs of Major Richard Winters, detailed exactly what did happen when Speirs shot a sergeant in one of his squads for disobeying a direct order in combat. Winters notes that by shooting the sergeant, Speirs saved the lives of many other men. Winters also repeatedly calls Speirs "a born killer” and states that despite making occasional flawed decisions off the battlefield, Speirs was a superb combat commander, which Winters respected immensely. Winters also points out that Speirs did report this incident to his commanding officer and names the officer. However, that officer was killed in action the next day, and the incident was never pursued at any level. Winters suggests that officers higher in the chain of command were so desperate for competent field officers that they could not afford losing one of Speirs' caliber. The soldiers serving under Speirs respected him immensely, but also feared him. This incident eventually faded away officially but became legend among the troops.

[Goober McTuber]

Tom,

That’s how our “greatest generation” won The Big One? That’s the kind of “leader” you want to glorify?

That was rumour. Nobody knew if he did that. But the "greatest generation" won The Big One, because they had balls.

In short. Yes. Spiers was by all accounts an exceptional combat leader.

And quite possibly a war criminal who should have been summarily executed.

[Tom In VA]

Tom,

That’s how our “greatest generation” won The Big One? That’s the kind of “leader” you want to glorify?

That was rumour. Nobody knew if he did that. But the "greatest generation" won The Big One, because they had balls.

In short. Yes. Spiers was by all accounts an exceptional combat leader.

And quite possibly a war criminal who should have been summarily executed.

Fortunately for him and the men he led you were in no such position to make that call. The fact you're making it now is inconsequential.

But it is good comedy.

[RadioFan]

Fortunately for him and the men he led you were in no such position to make that call. The fact you're making it now is inconsequential.

There you go again.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

But the "greatest generation" won The Big One, because they had balls.

The "Greatest Generation"?

You mean the "Greatest Generation" that was too busy worrying about catching cooties from blacks at the public drinking fountain,
while the Red Army bore the brunt of the Reich's military punch? That "Greatest Generation"?

Off yourself. Today.

[Tom In VA]

Fortunately for him and the men he led you were in no such position to make that call. The fact you're making it now is inconsequential.

There you go again.

on my own
Goin down the only road Ive ever known,
Like a hobo I was born to walk alone
An Ive made up my mind
I aint wasting no more time

[Tom In VA]

But the "greatest generation" won The Big One, because they had balls.

The "Greatest Generation"?

You mean the "Greatest Generation" that was too busy worrying about catching cooties from blacks at the public drinking fountain,
while the Red Army bore the brunt of the Reich's military punch? That "Greatest Generation"?

Off yourself. Today.

The quotes are there for a reason oh ill-iterate one.



Stay Pewter. Donkey Boy

[RadioFan]

Fortunately for him and the men he led you were in no such position to make that call. The fact you're making it now is inconsequential.

There you go again.

on my own
Goin down the only road Ive ever known,
Like a hobo I was born to walk alone
An Ive made up my mind
I aint wasting no more time

I don't think your boy could've offed 20 or 30 POWs while listening to anything short of Glenn Miller's "In the Mood," and more importantly, I'm pretty sure Bushice doesn't allow Whitesnake lyrics in this forum.

[Goober McTuber]

That was rumour. Nobody knew if he did that. But the "greatest generation" won The Big One, because they had balls.

In short. Yes. Spiers was by all accounts an exceptional combat leader.

And quite possibly a war criminal who should have been summarily executed.

Fortunately for him and the men he led you were in no such position to make that call. The fact you're making it now is inconsequential.

But it is good comedy.

I’m not disputing the fact that he was a great combat leader. But if it’s true that he murdered 20 or 30 POWs, you still believe that’s excusable? You don’t see that as a war crime? You would not condemn the same behavior from an enemy?

[OCmike]

Link?

On second though, forget it. Just shut the fuck up idiot. You don't know shit.

Right. Because there's no code of silence in the military, the military never makes up lies to cover up embarrassing incidents, and certainly no one would take the opportunity to do such a thing if there was no one from the media anywhere around to contradict such a story.

I don't have to link you to shit, fuckface. It was all over the evening news for months until pressure from congress and the American public forced them to look into the incident in depth. It ain't my fault if you didn't tune in your tv, corky.

That's a crock of shit. All five investigations concluded he was killed by friendly fire.

Right, and they did five investigations mostly due to public pressure after people didn't buy the horseshit epic hero story they tried to sell us the first time.

Yes, there certainly appears to have been a breakdown in communications. You have to understand that the Pentagon is not the all seeing Eye of Sauron. The only thing the Pentagon knows about what's happening in Asscrack, Afghanistan is what they are told by the units on the ground.

Yeah, either that or they completely shit the bed when they realized that our own boys had killed off the Audie Murphy of this war, figured no one would ever be the wiser and completely cooked up or at the very least went along with "Pat's epic journey" and prayed no one would ever question such an explanation.

Spare me the "Pentagon doesn't know what's going on on the ground" bullshit. They may not know the day to day operations of the regular Army-types. But they are integral in the planning, execution and completion of special forces and Ranger missions, so it's not like they couldn't have had a detailed report of Tillman's death on the appropriate person's desk within a day or two.

The report released last March does a good job of detailing what broke down during the investigative process and who ought to pranged for it. Some of the lower level troops have been disciplined for their roles in preparing this soup sandwich.

Right, so the report concludes that at the very least they were complicit in passing on a bold-faced lie. Thanks for making my point for me.

[PSUFAN]

Look - the Pentagon and the Bush Administration probably had the Tillman Halftime Tribute planned prior to Pat's deployment.

What bothers me is that they used him according to their purposes while they covered up the truth from his family and from the public at large.

To me, Pat Tillman is a hero because he genuinely wanted to serve his country. He had other options...lucrative ones, safer ones. He chose to serve his country.

I seriously doubt that he would have enjoyed seeing things go down the way they did. To me, by concealing the manner of his death, fabricating a more palatable story, and then not cooperating with his family in their search for information, they took a huge shit on him - on his legacy, on his sacrifice, and on his family.

[OCmike]

Look - the Pentagon and the Bush Administration probably had the Tillman Halftime Tribute planned prior to Pat's deployment.

What bothers me is that they used him according to their purposes while they covered up the truth from his family and from the public at large.

To me, Pat Tillman is a hero because he genuinely wanted to serve his country. He had other options...lucrative ones, safer ones. He chose to serve his country.

I seriously doubt that he would have enjoyed seeing things go down the way they did. To me, by concealing the manner of his death, fabricating a more palatable story, and then not cooperating with his family in their search for information, they took a huge shit on him - on his legacy, on his sacrifice, and on his family.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winnah!

Even if the Pentagon didn't know immediately following Tillman's death what the truth was, and even if it wasn't them that fabricated the story, they're sure as hell complicit in this whole mess because they clearly ran with the story, as it made for a better story than the truth.

[Tom In VA]

To me, Pat Tillman is a hero because he genuinely wanted to serve his country. He had other options...lucrative ones, safer ones. He chose to serve his country.

I seriously doubt that he would have enjoyed seeing things go down the way they did. To me, by concealing the manner of his death, fabricating a more palatable story, and then not cooperating with his family in their search for information, they took a huge shit on him - on his legacy, on his sacrifice, and on his family.

Solid post. It's unfortunate but all in all I don't see where trying to collect a "pound of flesh" from Tillman's comrades is something he would have wanted either.

[BSmack]

Even if the Pentagon didn't know immediately following Tillman's death what the truth was, and even if it wasn't them that fabricated the story, they're sure as hell complicit in this whole mess because they clearly ran with the story, as it made for a better story than the truth.

Somewhere in the bowls of the Pentagon, someone forgot that in order to print the legend, the legend must first become the truth.

sin

[Tom In VA]

I’m not disputing the fact that he was a great combat leader. But if it’s true that he murdered 20 or 30 POWs, you still believe that’s excusable? You don’t see that as a war crime? You would not condemn the same behavior from an enemy?

I wasn't there so I don't know what I'd do and there are so many variables involved. Logistics, keep in mind they were Airborne units dropped behind enemy lines. Their job was to kill and to disrupt the enemy's ability to counter attack and send more fire onto the beach. I don't know that they had the ability to hold prisoners. I know they saw plenty of their own hanging from trees and such with bullet holes in the bottom of their boots and up the length of their body indicating .... unarmed helpless comrades had been shot by the krauts. So I don't know.

If I was a trooper in his outfit, I hope I'd do what I was told though, apparently he didn't cotton to orders being disobeyed in combat.

[Cuda]

Who is "they"? .

I'm calling bullshit on your claim to be part beaner. You're clearly part jigaboo

[Goober McTuber]

I’m not disputing the fact that he was a great combat leader. But if it’s true that he murdered 20 or 30 POWs, you still believe that’s excusable? You don’t see that as a war crime? You would not condemn the same behavior from an enemy?

I wasn't there so I don't know what I'd do and there are so many variables involved. Logistics, keep in mind they were Airborne units dropped behind enemy lines. Their job was to kill and to disrupt the enemy's ability to counter attack and send more fire onto the beach. I don't know that they had the ability to hold prisoners. I know they saw plenty of their own hanging from trees and such with bullet holes in the bottom of their boots and up the length of their body indicating .... unarmed helpless comrades had been shot by the krauts. So I don't know.

If I was a trooper in his outfit, I hope I'd do what I was told though, apparently he didn't cotton to orders being disobeyed in combat.

Way to dance around the question, Sally.

[See You Next Wednesday]

Keeping waiting, shitdick. Or take some responsibility for your own edification.

Lazy, stupid fuck.

Why the hell should I research to find out your position and opinion? Maybe I have read up on it and maybe I find your pontification baseless and without merit, but as usual you offerd up nothing more than a blanket statemment with nothing to back it up at the time and then peppered it with some name calling, a debating technique that would embarrass a six-year old. If you are the one who is going to claim something than try and back it up or shut the hell up yourself.

[OCmike]

Right. Because there's no code of silence in the military, the military never makes up lies to cover up embarrassing incidents, and certainly no one would take the opportunity to do such a thing if there was no one from the media anywhere around to contradict such a story.

Sure it happens. Is it the rule? No. Are you fucking douchebag loser? Yes, of course.

Yeah, but I'm not ashamed of my race. So I've got that going for me...which is nice.

All five investigations concluded he was killed by friendly fire, you fucking idiot. What part of that are you struggling with?

Seriously, just go fuck yourself. You're a disgrace.

Hey! Only my wife can call me a disgrace!

Nobody's disputing the findings of the investigations, taintlips. The point is, they never bothered to do an investigation in the first place until people started questioning the Homeresque demise story the pentagon was gushing about.

But seriously, since you won't take my word for it, how about the words of Pat Tillman's brother:

Tillman’s brother, Kevin, charged the military with “intentional falsehoods that meet the legal definition for fraud” and “deliberate and careful misrepresentations” of the events surrounding Pat Tillman’s death.

[PSUFAN]

Such as "why did you think you had to lie?"

Tillman is no less of a hero. They lied to make themselves look good.

Tom...where in this discussion have you had an indication that people would like to see Tillman's comrades punished?

[Tom In VA]

Tom...where in this discussion have you had an indication that people would like to see Tillman's comrades punished?

Nowhere in this specific conversation or on this board for that matter. I do recall, flawed memory perhaps and I'd have to research to back it up, reading where Tillman's parents want "justice" and implications that it was gross negligence(the first investigation intimated as such), that an illegal cover up was conducted and ...... a pound of flesh is in order.

The whole attitude of the Tillman family, almost appears as if they think their son was shot on purpose by his own men. It's strange.

The whole thing is strange.

Their son was killed, a hero died, what "truth" are they still seeking ?

[PSUFAN]

The whole attitude of the Tillman family, almost appears as if they think their son was shot on purpose by his own men. It's strange.

I couldn't disagree more. I have never seen that they fault his comrades. I have seen where they are pissed about the higher-ups not telling them the truth.

Their son was killed, a hero died, what "truth" are they still seeking ?

Let's try this again...real simple like.

Tillman signed up to go fight for his country.
He was killed by friendly fire.
A false story of his demise was circulated.


The Tillman family wants to know WHY they were not told the truth. That truth was known up and down the command chain.

[OCmike]

Tillman's brother is an idiot as well as a liar himself.

I'm as cynical as the next guy, but even I'd question what his motive would be for lying...unless he has the obligatory book deal in the works, of course.

Lawmakers planned to press the Pentagon with questions still hovering over the shooting of Tillman

Such as?

Are you really asking the article a question? Wow... Do you talk like this to your tv too?

Reporter: Scientists around the world have formed a consensus that carbon dioxide, particulate matter and other man-made pollutants are causing global warming.
mvscal: Link?

[Tom In VA]

Let's try this again...real simple like.

Your condescension is almost laughable. Especially in light of the fact you don't know what you're talking about. But at least you're man enough to admit it ...

I have never seen that they fault his comrades

Because you haven't read all there is to read about it and contrary to your overly high opinion of yourself ..... you don't know everything.

Patrick K. Tillman stood outside his law office here, staring intently at a yellow house across the street, just over 70 yards away. That, he recalled, is how far away his eldest son, Pat, who gave up a successful N.F.L. career to become an Army Ranger, was standing from his fellow Rangers when they shot him dead in Afghanistan almost two years ago.

"I could hit that house with a rock," Mr. Tillman said. "You can see every last detail on that place, everything, and you're telling me they couldn't see Pat?"


.....
.....

"I am sitting here on my own, going over and over and over this for two years," Ms. Tillman, 50, said in a telephone interview. "The whole thing is such a debacle. I am beyond tears. It's killing me."

Like her former husband, she has spent days reading the files, researching the episode, calling members of Congress, even trying to contact some of the soldiers involved. She criticized the military, as well as the news media, for failing to get to the bottom of what occurred, leaving her family, in essence, to figure it out themselves.

All of it, her former husband said, has even left him suspicious of the military's central finding in their son's case so far: that the killing was a terrible but unintentional accident.

"There is so much nonstandard conduct, both before and after Pat was killed, that you have to start to wonder," Mr. Tillman said. "How much effort would you put into hiding an accident? Why do you need to hide an accident?"

An examination by The New York Times of more than 2,000 pages of documents from three previous Army administrative reviews reveals shifting testimony, the destruction of obvious evidence in the case and a series of contradictions about the distances, the lighting conditions and other details surrounding the shooting.

Seven Rangers have received administrative disciplines — a pay cut, a loss of rank or a return to the rank-and-file Army — but the criminal inquiry is for the first time examining whether the soldiers broke military law when they failed to identify their targets before firing on Corporal Tillman's position. The earlier reviews found that a chain of circumstances and errors had led to the deaths of Corporal Tillman and an Afghan soldier fighting alongside the Americans.

A senior Pentagon official briefed on the criminal investigation, who was granted anonymity because he was not permitted to speak publicly while the new investigation was under way, said it would delve into highly sensitive areas.

"The balance that investigators now have to wrestle with is how much of a crime-scene approach they can take — nearly two years after the fact — into the fog of war, where soldiers were making decisions in milliseconds," the Pentagon official said.

And


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... ETMNM1.DTL



The root of the Tillman issue is grief. Exacerbated by the fact the Army hesitated to come clean with the fact he was killed by Friendly Fire. When they found out he was killed by friendly fire they made more inquiries. An initial investigation found Tillman's comrades negligent. Subsequent information softens that implication.

The Tillman's are not satisfied, yet.



What else do YOU think they want ?

They want the guys already disciplined .... the guys on the ground punished more. THEN they want the higher ups punished for the cover up.


I look forward to your smarmy reply.

[PSUFAN]

The whole attitude of the Tillman family, almost appears as if they think their son was shot on purpose by his own men. It's strange.

Again, I'm not reading that at all. They have legitimate questions about the death of their son. They would be helped by a clear and truthful explanation of what happened - that is, exactly what was not given them earlier.

By the way - who are you to judge that their questions have already been answered?

What motivates you, Tom? Wouldn't you also like to know what really happened to your son, if you had to be in their shoes?

[Tom In VA]

What motivates you, Tom? Wouldn't you also like to know what really happened to your son, if you had to be in their shoes?

What would motivate me is probably the same thing that is motivating the Tillman's. Profound grief and inability to deal with the loss of a loved one.


I can't say I'd act any different. I can say I don't think I'd have the resources or "connections" the Tillman's to continue to draw this saga out.