Pat Tillman cover up - discussion please

[Felix]

So...what should I call this monger of falsehoods, deliberate distortions and blatant propaganda?
I'm open to reasonable suggestion.

here's an idea...how about not saying anything....

you'd never say that shit to his face, so why would you say it hiding behind a computer.....

[Mike the Lab Rat]

I was born. I was endowed by my Creator with inalienable rights

A rather pathetic fig leaf for a worthless coward. It must suck to know your greatest hero wouldn't cross the street to piss on you if you were on fire.

Link?

Or would you rather continue to melt and throw meaningless ad hominems around?

I think it's funny as hell that you automatically equate lack of military service with "cowardice" and a lack in "earning" Constitutionally-enumerated rights. It just shows what a pathetic blowhard you are that you took what was essentially a career choice and have blown it up into the end-all and be-all for true American citizenship. The fact that you've twisted having been a soldier into some kind of status that entitles you to deem folks "worthy" or "unworthy" and have claimed some sort of esoteric grasp of the true nature of our republic is pretty sad. In no way, shape, or form, did your service make you better than your fellow non-military citizens. If there's something in the Constitution that says otherwise, please drop the link.

As far as whether or not Jefferson would have crossed the street to "piss on me"...being as how I know far more about TJ than you do, I can assure you that he'd probably consider a multiply-degreed biological researcher worth crossing the street for, considering his great admiration for the sciences.

Your grasp of Jefferson, like your grasp of reality, is tenuous.

[Felix]

Oh...just blow it off. Not challenge blatant lies?

Why?

frankly, the quote sounded more like his opinion than a "blatant lie" (remember bud, you weren't there so you know jack shit about what went down), yet you're ready to kick a fellow soldier to the curb because you disagree with his statement....

but you have no problem with the Army blatantly lying to the Tillman's regarding what happened to their son....

jeebus dude, you've got a seriously fucked up sense of right and wrong......

[Mike the Lab Rat]

Are you crippled?

Nope...but I have had 20/400 vision in both eyes since about 4th grade. And despite my hopes, my corneas aren't good candidates for laser eye surgery. Yet.

Done any police work? Firefighting? Ever saved anyone's life? No?
Then you are coward

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Very nice, you mental midget. In your sad little GI Joe-worshipping world, unless someone has taken one of the "macho macho man" jobs revered by eight-year-old boys, they're a "coward?"

My God but you are juvenille.

You know what I did? I dedicated over a decade of my life to the AIDS Clinical Trials Group, helping to study the effects of prospective anti-HIV drugs. And before you bust out with a homophobic and/or racist blast about me saving "faggots," "N*bombs", "hookers," junkies, and the like, keep in mind that a hell of a lot of the stuff we worked on was for the PEDIATRIC AIDS unit. Innocent kids. I also worked for years for the AIDS Vaccine Evaluation Unit, for all the good it did. Before I left the U of R, the last few years of my job consisted of HIV genotyping, helping determine which specific mutations conferred drug resistance vs. anti-HIV drugs (which helped doctors determine better treatments for their patients, including infants). One of the frigging worst parts of my job was the viral load testing, in which I got the "privilege" of determining how riddled with HIV a patient was. I dreaded having to go up to the 4th floor to deliver results of ">100,000 copies HIV/mL" because I was basically delivering the news of an impending death for an innocent baby.

I left to become a teacher...and I took a pay cut to teach science at a federally-designated school of poverty. I specialize in teaching kids with lower IQ's, English-language learners, etc. I've successfully gotten underrepresented kids to do well in AP Biology. I've convinced kids and their parents to apply for college and (along with the guidance counselor) helped get them accepted. Some of my former students are the first members of their families to ever go to college. I tutor students for free. I've gotten voted "Teacher of the Year" two of the last three years by the kids. That alone is worth the extra hours I put in.

You've done nothing and contributed nothing

Only according to your warped sense of logic and "reality."

I make a difference.

So, blow it out your ass.

The quintessential Sunshine Patriot.

If you're going to try to dazzle us with your alleged expertise, you might want to not incorrectly use Paine's phrase. We're hardly in a time of crisis, contrary to the fraudulent crap that Bush and Cheney have been hawking.

Of course Jefferson would say you are well within your rights to spend your life in self-centered indolence, but it is abudantly clear from his writings that he held such individuals in contempt.

Jefferson would hardly consider my career in biomedical science and education "self-centered indolence." Unlike you, he didn't consider the military to be the SOLE way to serve one's fellow citizens.

[BSmack]

I think it's funny as hell that you automatically equate lack of military service with "cowardice"

Are you crippled? Done any police work? Firefighting? Ever saved anyone's life? No?
Then you are coward and aren't worth your weight in shit. You've done nothing and contributed nothing yet you demand all respect for the so called rights which you have never lifted a finger to secure or defend. The quintessential Sunshine Patriot.

Of course Jefferson would say you are well within your rights to spend your life in self-centered indolence, but it is abudantly clear from his writings that he held such individuals in contempt.

It would be wise to remember that Jefferson himself was not a fireman, policeman or a soldier. He was the Father of the University of Virginia. So I suspect his opinion of educators would be rather high.

[BSmack]

I specialize in teaching kids with lower IQ's, English-language learners, etc.

So I guess your presence on these boards can now be written off as work related research?

[Diego in Seattle]

[dins]

I left to become a teacher...I've successfully gotten underrepresented kids to do well in AP Biology.

[/dins]

[Felix]

Neither was he.

uh, yeah he was...

[Cuda]

I was born. I was endowed by my Creator with inalienable rights

A rather pathetic fig leaf for a worthless coward. It must suck to know your greatest hero wouldn't cross the street to piss on you if you were on fire.

You channeling Jefferson & Madison now, meltscal?

Oh, wait, maybe you're actually just a fucking pathetic shill for Chimpy & Co.

What the fuck makes you think you have the slightest clues what Jefferson & Madison would do?

Oh, right... I forgot- you did a 2 year hitch in the army back in 1990.

And then bailed the fuck outta there at the first opportunity

[War Wagon]

Ouch... Coods bringing the lumber. That's the best post you've ever made.

MtLR, vets do get a bit... no, a TON... of respect from me, especially combat vets. They may be cannon fodder, but they're our cannon fodder, by gosh.

Shit happens in warfare. Just be thankful that the greatest military the world has ever seen has your back and allows you to vent and rant like you do. That's your right, and it's been and will continue to be bought and paid for by the blood of the likes of mvscal.

[Tom In VA]

Some powerful stuff.

mvscal RACK
mtlr RACK

Thank You Both

[OCmike]

Another guy we went to college with spent most of his tour stoned out of his goddamned mind (he's the one who told us stories about drinking absinthe in Japan, using golden seal root to pass drug tests).

One of two things happened here:

1. He lied his ass off to try to impress a couple of old college buddies. Newsflash: They test for GoldenSeal and other masking agents. Testing positive for GS or another agent is the same as a positive test and you get the boot. This has been policy (in the Navy anyway), since five Gunner's Mates blew themselves up in the 80's on a destroyer in the Mediterranean sea and all five tested positive for drugs post-mortem.

2. He got lucky. Again, I don't know what the policy is for other branches, but in the 1990's, the Navy only got funding for one annual "command sweep" (in other words, everybody) piss test and a handfull of random tests. So the standard procedure, other than the sweeps where they tested every sample, was to only test a box of samples (which contained 8 bottles, as I recall) if one of the bottles in the box was dark or orange in color. In that case they'd test the entire box.

So all you had to do was either not get unlucky enough to have your positive, but clear piss, be in a box with some potheads orange urine, or not be stupid enough to do drugs during the Christmas/New Years leave period, because everyone knew that they'd always do the command sweep in January every fucking year.

Of course, they still managed to catch a few knuckleheads. I remember one buddy of mine who was a solid guy and was skilled and knowledgeable at his job, but couldn't leave drugs alone. I was standing in line just in front of him at the annual command sweep and he keeps fidgeting back and forth, crossing his arms and breathing nervously through his nose.

Me(Whispering): What's the problem.
Him(Whispering): What problem, I don't have a problem, why do you think I have a problem, why, do I seem like I have a problem?
*pause*
Me: What.
Him: What.
Me: You weren't stupid were you?
*pause*
*pause*
Him(Hoarse whisper): Dude, I'm tweaking RIGHT NOW!
Me: You're an idiot.

After he got the boot for popping positive, his parents gave him a shitload of money for some reason and he opened up a head shop in Pacific Beach.

----------------------
Sorry about the hijack. ...Back to your regularly scheduled thread.
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Look, the Tillmans don't want answers. They already know what happened.

What they don't have is closure so they really want is some Colonel's job for making up a story.

[BSmack]

He risked everything he had and even his life to help establish this country.

What's your ante, coach potato? Nothing? That's what I thought.

Sorry, there wasn't a war on in 1984 when I got out of HS. I do my civic duties when called upon and tend to my own affairs otherwise. Same as Jefferson, Washington and Adams. But rest assured that if your kind should ever step too far against our liberties, I will fight you.

[Dr_Phibes]

You speak the lies of Bush, B_yellowbelly.

Several islands in the caribbean got a bloody good kicking while you were farting about with Atari and smoking drugs. Christ knows how you live with yourself.

[Mister Bushice]

It would be wise to remember that Jefferson himself was not a fireman, policeman or a soldier. He was the Father of the University of Virginia. So I suspect his opinion of educators would be rather high.

He risked everything he had and even his life to help establish this country.

What's your ante, coach potato? Nothing? That's what I thought.

Paying taxes that finance grunts like you, sacrificing a high paying career and going to school to learn to educate lower income / IQ students, the majority of which in all likelihood will end up defending this country in the military, and on top of that doing research that may help end a disease that costs us all millions in health care costs is more of a fucking ante than your piss ant years in a shit war ever will be.

I suggest you fold before the river card floats your ass out of here.

[poptart]

RACK this thread.

[BSmack]

You speak the lies of Bush, B_yellowbelly.

Several islands in the caribbean got a bloody good kicking while you were farting about with Atari and smoking drugs. Christ knows how you live with yourself.

I ache with pain at the thought of missing my chance to relive Heartbreak Ridge with Clint Eastwood on the lovely island of Grenada..

[Tom In VA]

I honestly believe most people on this board, contribute to our society in a productive way. I really do. My heart is always with the 11Bravos and 0300's of the world. The mudrollers. In my mind, unless I do that, I will never match their contributions. But this is a touchy subject to me, to say I regret, would be an understatement. Band of Brothers, first or second episode, a guy spoke of some dudes from his hometown who were 4F and then killed themselves. I don't plan on going ToddOwen, but I understand that. While I don't appeal to authority by enlisting my "friends in Iraq", I have several. If anything were to happen to them, I don't know what I'd do.


My allusions to WWII run much deeper than bullshit "waxing nostalgic". But that's not within the context of this thread I suppose. The Tillman's lost a son, the Rangers lost a buddy ... actually TWO maybe .... and the government tried to use their GI's for their own purpose. Nothing new under the sun, unfortunately, when it comes to war. Again with WWII, plenty of GI's were trotted out agains their will to sell the war effort. Plenty of dead GI's had their stories embellished for the benefit of their folks at home and their buddies in theatre and to sell the war effort.

When it comes to knowing how the military operates, mvscal gets the nod and Felix takes a bench. Kevin and Pat Tillman, were not just Ranger qual'd. They served in Ranger units. There's a big difference. It's a very intimate community. I think mvscal is trying to say that Kevin knows that as the reports filter up from squad, platoon, company, battalion, regiment, division, etc.. etc.. it gets cleaner. No unit wants to air it's dirty laundry unless they have to. I believe this is what mvscal is saying and he would know more than me. His knowledge of this might be what is making him conclude Kevin Tillman is lying in his attempt to suggest the "cleansing" of the report occurred from the Top down.

I don't know. We lost a good, we continue to lose good ones. But thanks to the lot of you, mvscal, MtLR, and all the other useful members of society that post here, we're making and building new "good ones". Hopefully we won't have to get them killed.


Fight a war to win it and don't leave other peoples' kids out with their dicks in the wind. I honestly thought Bush was doing what he and his cadre of experts thought was best for the country we live in. As such, I felt it best to thank the boys returning home and let everyone do their job. That's really all there is to it in my view. It's a nasty world out there in the competition for resources.


Of all the talks, this one has really had a profound impact. MtLR and mvscal really stirred things up a bit in my mind.


Good Luck and God Bless to All.

[Goober McTuber]

I tend to believe that Bush and his cadre of egg-spurts do what they believe is best for them.

And rack the Lab Rat.

[titlover]

I tend to believe ... Bush.

I knew the truth would come out.

[Goober McTuber]

I knew the truth would come out.

Not likely during this administration.

[PSUFAN]

honestly thought Bush was doing what he and his cadre of experts thought was best for the country we live in.

Not good enough. Too much incompetence - of a flavor that a lot of good people foresaw, and were lambasted by the head-nodders.

Let's hope some of the fucking fools involved in the Iraq Debacle now understand something at least - that the US doesn't enter a war footing casually, easily, or without due deliberation. From lying to assemble the justification for war, to inane bullshit like "shock and awe", to being unprepared for the aftermath of war (leading directly to lost American lives), to failing to set realistic goals all throughout, to dropping the ball on the care of wounded returning vets all while displaying unparalleled ignorance and arrogance, the Bush Administration bungled this like few administrations ever have bungled a war effort. Any historian down the road will lay things out and tragically shake their head at the swath of idiocy that Bush set us off to cut.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

You speak the lies of Bush, B_yellowbelly.

Several islands in the caribbean got a bloody good kicking while you were farting about with Atari and smoking drugs. Christ knows how you live with yourself.

I ache with pain at the thought of missing my chance to relive Heartbreak Ridge with Clint Eastwood on the lovely island of Grenada..

Not only that, but you could have been blasting Noriega with all those shit tunes you blather on about in the music forum.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Rack the Lab Rat and Bushice.

And btw, who hijacked Cuda's password?

[Tom In VA]

honestly thought Bush was doing what he and his cadre of experts thought was best for the country we live in.

Not good enough.

I don't answer to you.

[PSUFAN]

I'm saying that Bush and his cadre of experts - their best was not good enough...that is, if it really was their best. If that was their best...then their best wasn't near good enough.

[Tom In VA]

I'm saying that Bush and his cadre of experts - their best was not good enough...that is, if it really was their best. If that was their best...then their best wasn't near good enough.

Sounds like we could write a song.


I do not have the intelligence or the qualifications to accurately assess Bush's or more aptly the military's overall performance in this matter.


From my inexperienced perspective, I can place things in hindsight and suggest that other routes might have been better than the ones chosen, too. I do. Placed in historical perspective amongst "blunders", of the military ilk, I'm not so sure this is the most egregious one.


How do we arrive at our benchmarks ? Precedent ?

What factors to we use to assess this situation, without prejudice and without infusing .... "hindsight".

[BSmack]

You speak the lies of Bush, B_yellowbelly.

Several islands in the caribbean got a bloody good kicking while you were farting about with Atari and smoking drugs. Christ knows how you live with yourself.

I ache with pain at the thought of missing my chance to relive Heartbreak Ridge with Clint Eastwood on the lovely island of Grenada..

Not only that, but you could have been blasting Noriega with all those shit tunes you blather on about in the music forum.

I can say this much for out boys in Panama. When it came time to blast some Van Halen in Noriega's general direction, they didn't step up with any of that Van Hagar bullshit. They went straight to the real David Lee Roth era Van Halen. Remember when the Vatican Ambassador complained that it was cruel and unusual punishment? Of course he probably said that after violating yet another altar boy.

PS: It looks like Noriega is scheduled to be released from prison this fall. How the time flies.

Noriega's Inmate Locator page

[See You Next Wednesday]

The quickest way for Bush to increase his competency and his ability to be Commander in Chief would be if he spent a night at a Holiday Inn Express.

[See You Next Wednesday]

From lying to assemble the justification for war

That is a goddamn lie.

I laughed.

[Terry in Crapchester]

IKYABWAI

[Cuda]

And btw, who hijacked Cuda's password?

Probably Dinsdale

[RadioFan]

From lying to assemble the justification for war

That is a goddamn lie.

"Slam dunk."

Btw, is one still a coward if one has saved someone else's life, but hasn't served in the military? Just curious as to the Mvscal Doctrine on Cowardism, Service and What it Means to be a True American. Highly entertaining ... errrr, fascinating stuff. Attila the Hun would probably throw a rack your way, if he wasn't too intimidated.

[LTS TRN 2]

Bullshit, babs--as usual. In fact America had PLENTY of accurate intelligence informing us that Saddam did not have WMDs or ties to Al Qaeda. These experts were completely stonewalled, smeared, and dismissed. The Chimp, Cheney, and the utterly vile gang of Israel-fanatic "neocons," were hellbent on invading (with NO plan for actual completion, etc) and did so to the utter detriment of our nation, Iraq, and the world. And they deserve to hang for it. Really.

Now shut the fuck up with your tedious ditto-head parrot snips. Really.

[Mister Bushice]

I'm saying that Bush and his cadre of experts - their best was not good enough...that is, if it really was their best. If that was their best...then their best wasn't near good enough.

It wasn't their best. It was our best. Our intelligence apparatus is not only broken, it's totaled.

Wanna know how many agents we had in Iraq 1998-2003? ero, nada, nichts, zilch, zip.

And yet, the Bush admin has repeatedly said that they always had enough information to justify the war. Funny how that is, but not in the "haha" sort of way.

I am dubious of our ability to find our ass with both hands.

He's been president for 7 years, and you're just discovering this now?

It will take years if not decades to fix and we still aren't on the right track.

And we won't get there as long as we have half wits leading the parade.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]