George W. Bush truly is a jackass

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George W. Bush truly is a jackass

Post by PSUFAN »

I know most folks prefer the term "chimp", but I don't want to demean those primates so undeservedly.

http://www.reuters.com/article/politics ... geNumber=1
President George W. Bush would like to see a lengthy U.S. troop presence in Iraq like the one in South Korea to provide stability but not in a frontline combat role, the White House said on Wednesday.
Not even Tony Snow can believe this horseshit:
"I think the point he's (Bush) trying to make is that the situation in Iraq, and indeed, the larger war on terror, are things that are going to take a long time. But it is not always going to require an up-front combat presence," Snow said.

"The president has always said that ultimately you want to be handing primary responsibility off to the Iraqis," he said.

"You provide the so-called over-the-horizon support that is necessary from time to time to come to the assistance of Iraqis but you do not want the United States forever in the front."
Yeah, you know things are going well when your Press Sec. has to scour the barrel to explain what the fuck you're talking about, and then he retreats from the point that you've made.

Does this moron have any understanding of what is happening in Iraq whatsoever? He appears to have glanced at some historical conflicts and determined "I want one of those to call my own".

From any geographical, cultural, or military perspective, there is absolutely no parallel between what is happening in Korea and what is happening in Iraq.

None of Iraq's neighbors...not even the one we like to pretend are friendly to us...want the US to set up permanent bases in Iraq.

Honestly, I would be more comfortable with a statement along the line of, "we are going to steal Iraq's oil in order to ensure that our economy isn't slowed by rising oil prices". There would at least be some rationale involved with that. But this...this is just the clueless mooning of a gene pool-debased hereditary ruler, one who isn't properly equipped to lead this great nation, and who has done it quite a bit of harm.
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Post by poptart »

I thought you were gonna label him a jackass for giving citizensh.. .... err .... amnesty (extreme rolleyes) to 15-20 million wetties, or for letting 7,000 Iraqi's (none of whom, I'm so very sure, harbor any anti-American sentiment) into the country.

Come to find out he likes Iraq so much that he wants to keep it as a new vacation home for U.S. troops.
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Post by Dinsdale »

PNAC, who has openly and publically plotted to overthrow the American government, is getting its wish.

Nice job at the voting booth, tards.


BTW-10 years ago, PNAC listed an Iraq invasion as their top priority, regardless whether Saddam was still in power or not. Next on their long-term agenda was an invasion of Iran, regardless of government.

Gee, I wonder what's going to happen next? W better get to work, since his time draws short, and PNAC might not be able to rig the electronic voting machines to get one of their people in there next time around.
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Re: George W. Bush truly is a jackass

Post by LTS TRN 2 »

[quote="mvscal"]

Correct. Korea was a far more deadly situation.

[quote]

Huh?

Deadly to whom? Are you totally plastered all the time? WTF are you pretending to talk about?
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Post by Cuda »

Plastered, or Sober, he's still manages to get the ubb code right more often than you do.
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Post by LTS TRN 2 »

What idiotic bullshit!

Korea? The rolling commies backed by China...was WORSE than a full out civil war in the heart of the Middle East?

Really babs?

Are you drinking distilled water and pure alcohol, by any chance?
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Post by PSUFAN »

Cuda wrote:Plastered, or Sober, he's still manages to get the ubb code right more often than you do.
Jesus Christ. By the time you're done, no one will have any ankle left.
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Post by PSUFAN »

[marq=right]********** UPDATE ************[/marq]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/edi ... 89306.html
After the Senate Finance Committee approved an expansion of the federal Children's Health Insurance Program to cover nearly 10 million kids, President Bush offered a strange rationale for threatening to veto it.

"People have access to health care in America," he told an audience in Cleveland. "After all, you just go to an emergency room."
...just...fucking...brilliant.
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Post by Wolfman »

you mean people don't go to emegency care ?

wow

my bad !
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Post by RadioFan »

Wolfman wrote:you mean people don't go to emegency care ?

wow

my bad !
You mean people can't afford preventative

health care ?

or insurance ?

like w? fifty times over !!!

so they don't have to end up at

emergency rooms ?

wow

my bad !
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Post by PSUFAN »

Wolfman wrote:you mean people don't go to emegency care ?

wow

my bad !
Let me help you understand this, since you appear a little slow to do so yourself.

Bush is saying that people who need medical services - but who don't have insurance coverage - should simply go to the ER...and that constitutes "coverage".

Let's say you're a hospital administrator - or anyone remotely involved in health care services - or even a common-sense thinker. Is it a good idea to suggest that a stroll into an ER is "medical coverage"? Now, think about the effect that might have (or is having) on the availability of services for everyone across the board.

In case none of that registers, don't worry - it will at some point when you have to visit a hospital.

Simply stated - this is the stupidest statement Bush has ever uttered. Apparently, he thinks that we do have socialized medicine - all you have to do to get it is waltz or limp into an ER.

Uh, glad I could help.
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Post by PSUFAN »

We should just close the emergency rooms to these moochers. No insurance? Go fuck yourself.

Libs are always whimpering about the planet being overpopulated and then they turn around and want to give all these worthless shitstains free healthcare. What's up with that?

We have eliminated all of our natural predators from the environment, but we haven't eliminated the need for a mechanism to cull our worst specimens.
First things first - fix the way that people are insured in this country.
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Post by BSmack »

mvscal wrote:If you have money, you buy insurance. What's to fix?
And even with insurance you're still not guaranteed decent care.
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Post by OCmike »

BSmack wrote:
mvscal wrote:If you have money, you buy insurance. What's to fix?
And even with insurance you're still not guaranteed decent care.
Well you certainly aren't going to get quality care by socializing medicine or making vast expansions to the Medicaid program or whatever other retarded handout you're talking about.

Most of the long wait horror stories that we hear about are because of shortages of doctors of a particular specialty in a particular area. Want to get good medical care? Get a full-time job (even Wal-mart offers health benefits to full-time workers) and live in a metropolitan area. Pretty much everyone knows that, right? If you hate the city and want to live off in BFE and be some sort of self-employed work-from-home person or whatever, you're going to have to make certain sacrifices in the area of medical care.
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Post by BSmack »

OCmike wrote:
BSmack wrote:
mvscal wrote:If you have money, you buy insurance. What's to fix?
And even with insurance you're still not guaranteed decent care.
Well you certainly aren't going to get quality care by socializing medicine or making vast expansions to the Medicaid program or whatever other retarded handout you're talking about.

Most of the long wait horror stories that we hear about are because of shortages of doctors of a particular specialty in a particular area. Want to get good medical care? Get a full-time job (even Wal-mart offers health benefits to full-time workers) and live in a metropolitan area. Pretty much everyone knows that, right? If you hate the city and want to live off in BFE and be some sort of self-employed work-from-home person or whatever, you're going to have to make certain sacrifices in the area of medical care.
Tell that to my brother who got stuck with a 4,000 dollar tab because his insurance provider decided that anesthesia was not necessary for my neice's open heart surgery. And the scary thing is that he had GOOD coverage because his wife was a teacher in New York State. God forbid they would have been WalMart employees.
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Post by OCmike »

BSmack wrote:
OCmike wrote:
BSmack wrote: And even with insurance you're still not guaranteed decent care.
Well you certainly aren't going to get quality care by socializing medicine or making vast expansions to the Medicaid program or whatever other retarded handout you're talking about.

Most of the long wait horror stories that we hear about are because of shortages of doctors of a particular specialty in a particular area. Want to get good medical care? Get a full-time job (even Wal-mart offers health benefits to full-time workers) and live in a metropolitan area. Pretty much everyone knows that, right? If you hate the city and want to live off in BFE and be some sort of self-employed work-from-home person or whatever, you're going to have to make certain sacrifices in the area of medical care.
Tell that to my brother who got stuck with a 4,000 dollar tab because his insurance provider decided that anesthesia was not necessary for my neice's open heart surgery. And the scary thing is that he had GOOD coverage because his wife was a teacher in New York State. God forbid they would have been WalMart employees.
That was a covered benefit by either his insurance company or his medical group, depending on what the setup was for his insurance.

Insurance companies pull that all the time in CA because they don't pay for the anesthesia, the medical group does. So when the medical group gets a high-dollar claim and rejects it as "Health Plan Responsible", the health plan automatically bills the patient, knowing that he'll make a pissed of phone call to his medical group.

One other game they like to play is in cases where the tab is around a few thousand dollars, they'll tell you that you're responsible for payment because they know that it'll cost about the same to pay a lawyer and file a lawsuit as it will to just pay the money.

Either way, sounds like your brother had a shitty insurance company.
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Post by BSmack »

OCmike wrote:One other game they like to play is in cases where the tab is around a few thousand dollars, they'll tell you that you're responsible for payment because they know that it'll cost about the same to pay a lawyer and file a lawsuit as it will to just pay the money.

Either way, sounds like your brother had a shitty insurance company.
That's exactly what they did to my brother. And as shitty as Blue Cross might have been to him, it is even scarier to contemplate what kind of tab he might have gotten stuck with had he been stuck with the kind of bargain basement coverage your average WalMart employee is stuck with. You know, like a $1,000 a year cap on benefits. Instead of being out 4k, he would have been out 750,000.

http://www.dsausa.org/lowwage/walmart/health.html
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Post by OCmike »

Well, in theory he would have been.

However, in the case of a kid who needs open heart surgery, there is no shortage of religious-based hospitals who wouldn't do the surgery for free and write it off to charity.

I get your point though. But that's why a job like Wal-mart should be a stepping stone at worst. If you made poor life choices to the point where that's your career, that's on you.

As mvscal said, pay the premiums, get the insurance. What's the problem?
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Post by PSUFAN »

Either way, sounds like your brother had a shitty insurance company.
Umm...is there some other kind?

Let's put it this way - if there's a way they can screw you like that, they will. That's what has to be fixed.

Health care coverage isn't a have/have not issue. You can have insurance, but fail to really be covered.

http://www.wakeupwalmart.com/facts/
Wal-Mart's Health Care Plan Fails to Cover Over 775,000 Employees

* Wal-Mart reported in January 2006 that its health insurance only covers 43% of their employees. Wal-Mart has approximately 1.39 million US employees.

Wal-Mart's Health Insurance Falls Far Short of Other Large Companies

* On average for 2005, large companies (200 or more workers) cover approximately 66% of their employees. If Wal-Mart was to reach the average coverage rate, Wal-Mart should be covering an additional 318,000 employees [Kaiser Family Foundation, 2005 and http://www.walmartfacts.com/docs/1625_j ... 890240.pdf].

Wal-Mart's Health Care Eligibility is Restrictive

* Part-timers—anybody below 34 hours a week — must wait 1 year before they can enroll. Moreover, spouses of part-time employees are ineligible for family health care coverage for 2006. [Wal-Mart Stores, "My Benefits, New Peak Time Benefits Making a Difference For You," 2006]
* Full-time hourly employees must wait 180 days (approximately 6 months) before being able to enroll in Wal-Mart's health insurance plan. Managers have no waiting period. [Wal-Mart 2006 Associate Guide]
* Nationally, the average wait time for new employees to become eligible is 1.7 months. For the retail industry it is 3.0 months. [Kaiser Family Foundation & Health Research and Educational Trust, 2005]

All of Wal-Mart's Health Plans Are Too Costly for Its Workers to Use

* Since the average full-time Wal-Mart employee earned $17,114 in 2005, he or she would have to spend between 7 and 25 percent of his or her income just to cover the premiums and medical deductibles, if electing for single coverage. [Wal-Mart 2006 Associate Guide and UFCW analysis]
* The average full-time employee electing for family coverage would have to spend between 22 and 40 percent of his or her income just to cover the premiums and medical deductibles. These costs do not include other health-related expenses such as medical co-pays, prescription coverage, emergency room deductibles, and ambulance deductibles. [Wal-Mart 2006 Associate Guide and UFCW Analysis].
* Wal-Mart trumps the affordability of its new health care plan. According to Wal-Mart, "In January [2006], ...Coverage will be available for as little as $22 per month for individuals" [www.walmartfacts.com]
* What Wal-Mart's website leaves out: Coverage is affordable, but using it will bankrupt many employees. Wal-Mart's most affordable plan for 2006 includes a $1,000 deductible for single coverage and a $3,000 deductible for family coverage ($1,000 deductible per person covered up to $3,000). [Wal-Mart 2006 Associate Guide]

Wal-Mart Admits Public Health Care is a "Better Value"

* President and CEO Lee Scott said in 2005, "In some of our states, the public program may actually be a better value - with relatively high income limits to qualify, and low premiums." [Transcript Lee Scott Speech 4/5/05]

Wal-Mart's Health Care is Getting Costlier

* Between 2000-2005, the cost of premiums rose 169 percent for single coverage and 117 percent for family coverage. [UFCW analysis of annual Wal-Mart Associate Guides].
* In comparison, premiums for family coverage in the U.S. have increased only by 59%, from 2000-2005. [Employer Health Benefits: 2004 Annual Survey, Kaiser Family Foundation & Health Research and Educational Trust, 2004] Wal-Mart Employees Pay More for Health Care Costs
* In 2004, Wal-Mart employees, in total, paid approximately 41% of the plan costs [Wal-Mart IRS 5500 Filings, 2005].
* Nationally for 2004 on average employees paid for only 16% of single coverage costs and 28% of family coverage costs [Kaiser Family Foundation, 2005].

Wal-Mart Covers Less of the Health Care Costs Compared to Its Competitors

* In a state analysis, the Massachusetts Department of Health and Human Services found that in 2003, Wal-Mart covered only 52% of total health care premium costs compared to K-Mart which covered 66%, Target which covered 68%, and Sears which covered 80% ["Employers Who Have 50 or More Employees Using Public Health Assistance," Division of Health Care Finance and Policy, 2/2005]

Wal-Mart's Spending Falls Below Industry Standards

* Wal-Mart's spending on health care for its employees falls well below industry and national employer averages. In 2002, as reported in the Wall Street Journal, Wal-Mart spent an average of $3,500 per employee. By comparison, the average spending per employee in the wholesale/retailing sector was $4,800. For U.S. employers in general, the average was $5,600 per employee, Therefore, Wal-Mart's average spending on health benefits for each covered employee was 27% less than the industry average and 37% less than the national average. [Bernard Wysocki, Jr. and Ann Zimmerman, "Wal-Mart Cost-Cutting Finds a Big Target in Health Benefits," Wall Street Journal September 30, 2003 p1]

Wal-Mart Only Spends 77 Cents an Hour Per Employee for Health Benefits

* In 2004, Wal-Mart spent $1.5 billion on its health insurance. This amounts to an employer contribution of around only $0.77 an hour per employee. This accounts for approximately a half-percent of Wal-Mart's $285 billion in sales in 2004. [Susan Chambers, Wal-Mart Internal Memo, 2005, Wal-Mart Annual Report, 2005].

Wal-Mart Increased Advertising More Than Health Care

* In 2004, Wal-Mart spent nearly the same amount on advertising as it did on health insurance. In 2004, Wal-Mart reports that it spent $1.5 billion on health care benefits and $1.4 billion in advertising. [Wal-Mart Annual Report 2005, Susan Chambers, Wal-Mart Internal Memo, 2005]
* Between 2003 and 2004, Wal-Mart increased its advertising budget by $434 million, only increasing its spending on employee health care by $100 million. That means Wal-Mart increased its spending on advertising by 45 percent while only increasing its spending on employee health care by 7 percent. [Wal-Mart Annual Report 2005, Susan Chambers, Wal-Mart Internal Memo, 2005]
* In fact, Wal-Mart has consistently increased spending on advertising more than its spending on employee health care. Between 2002 and 2003, Wal-Mart put more new funds into advertising than into health care. Wal-Mart increased spending on advertising by $290 million, while only increasing health care spending by $215 million for the same period. (note: this also occurred in 1995-96, 1997-98,1998-1999). [Wal-Mart Annual Reports and 5500 Filings]

One Out of Six Wal-Mart Employees Has No Health Care Coverage At All

* This is more than double the national percentage for large firms (firms with over 100 employees). In fact, we estimate that Wal-Mart accounted in 2005 for more than 1 out of every 40 uninsured workers who are employed at a large firm. [Susan Chambers, Wal-Mart Internal Memo, 2005; Wal-Mart Annual Report; "Employer-Sponsored Health Insurance Coverage: Sponsorship, Eligibility, and Participation Patterns in 2001," Bowen Garrett, Ph.D., released by the Kaiser Family Foundation September 2004].
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Post by OCmike »

Uh, I wasn't trying to point out Wal-mart as the diamond of the employment industry when it comes to health care coverage. All I did was mention that they offered it, as an example of a bottom of the barrel job even having some coverage.

I know plenty about the way Wal-mart's coverage works, because one of the OL's friends started working there as a night job for some extra $$ and was told about the one-year waiting period for benefits. She also said one of the games they play is they just schedule as many people as possible for less than 40 hours so they have few full-time employees and just about everyone will be "part-time" (34 hours) so that they'll have to wait the year before getting benefits. Of course, she's in her situation because of shitty life choices, so I have little sympathy.

Anywho, many/most mid-to-large-sized companies offer benefits as free to the employee and don't require any type of payment until you start looking at covering other family members.

Hell, even a bunch of small companies offer free health care to employees. The company I work for has 25 employees and I don't pay a dime for coverage. Granted, it's shitty coverage, but it's free. :D My wife's company has better coverage, so we go through her.

As to your mentioning that it needs to be fixed, how do you fix BSmack's friend's situation? They have a right to say "no" and you have a right to sue. Sounds like the only way to fix that is to have a "Loser pays" system like they have in Australia, but that's a fix to the legal system and not the health care system.
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Post by PSUFAN »

one of the games they play is they just schedule as many people as possible for less than 40 hours so they have few full-time employees and just about everyone will be "part-time" (34 hours) so that they'll have to wait the year before getting benefits.
It's also been pointed out that they'll force folks to work off the clock so that they avoid earning benefits as well.
If you think socialized medicine is the answer
I do not, although Bush apparently does. To him, everybody's covered - they can just two-step into the ER.

Myself, I don't think that universal health care coverage would be a panacea. In fact, I'm perfectly comfortable paying for living commodities such as health care coverage.
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Post by OCmike »

PSUFAN wrote:
If you think socialized medicine is the answer
I do not, although Bush apparently does. To him, everybody's covered - they can just two-step into the ER.
Evidently the trial lawyers gave more to Bush's re-election campaign than the hospital lobby did. That's an atrocious thing for a President to suggest.
Myself, I don't think that universal health care coverage would be a panacea. In fact, I'm perfectly comfortable paying for living commodities such as health care coverage.
Universal health coverage would be a disaster. If you think the government's been fleeced before(see: the current Medicaid program), you ain't seen nothin' yet. Once hospitals and doctors start billing the government, watch how fast their "costs" go up. What do you think that'll do to your private insurance premiums?
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Post by Goober McTuber »

Wal-Mart has been in the news here because they don’t offer health insurance, and they do encourage their employees to use a state-sponsored healthcare plan funded by my taxes to help the unemployed. Fuck Wal-Mart.

Blue Cross/Blue Shield is the absolute pits. Just fucking evil. I know someone who had some surgery a short while ago. One of the bills (that should have been fully covered) was for $2,500. Blue Cross/Blue Shield offered to pay $480.
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Post by PSUFAN »

Their sole consideration is profit for executives and investors. Providing good medical care is not really a priority.

THAT is where I believe government has a legitimate regulatory role - overseeing how these corporations conduct themselves.
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Post by Mike the Lab Rat »

mvscal wrote:Since when did providing health care become a corporate responsibility? If they choose to offer it as a perk, that's one thing. It is by no means a trivial expense.
Concur.

I wish that employers would show employees how much is being paid out to them as a health insurance benefit so that folks would realize how much it costs and consider it a part of their compensation. I've got co-workers who fall under our old union contract and don't have to pay a dime for their health insurance who don't think of it as a sizable benefit. They should find out how much it costs the district and add that to their salary to figure out their "real" pay.
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Post by Screw_Michigan »

PSUFAN wrote:Simply stated - this is the stupidest statement Bush has ever uttered.
what about his classic balst: "There ought to be limits to freedom," he dropped on the campaign trail in 2000? talk about "blah blah blah out front should have told you."
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Post by BSmack »

OCmike wrote:Well, in theory he would have been.

However, in the case of a kid who needs open heart surgery, there is no shortage of religious-based hospitals who wouldn't do the surgery for free and write it off to charity.
There's no theory about it. The only hospital that was able to perform the type of open heart surgery required was Boston Children's. Though they are a first rate institution, they are hardly free. I'm sure St. Jude's is a fine institution in it's own right. But this was groundbreaking neonatal open heart surgery. In fact, it was written up in a few medical journals after the fact as this particular surgery had never been attempted before.
I get your point though. But that's why a job like Wal-mart should be a stepping stone at worst. If you made poor life choices to the point where that's your career, that's on you.
You think Wal Mart is the only company not providing truly comprehensive coverage? Plenty of people further up the career ladder have found themselves in hot water. Surely you don't think all those bankruptcies caused by medical bills were filed by Wal Mart workers alone?
As mvscal said, pay the premiums, get the insurance. What's the problem?
Tell me this. If "socialized medicine" is destined to lead us to ruin, how do you explain every other industrialized nation IN THE WORLD? When are they going to collapse?
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Post by BSmack »

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:
mvscal wrote:Since when did providing health care become a corporate responsibility? If they choose to offer it as a perk, that's one thing. It is by no means a trivial expense.
Concur.

I wish that employers would show employees how much is being paid out to them as a health insurance benefit so that folks would realize how much it costs and consider it a part of their compensation. I've got co-workers who fall under our old union contract and don't have to pay a dime for their health insurance who don't think of it as a sizable benefit. They should find out how much it costs the district and add that to their salary to figure out their "real" pay.
That is exactly what plenty of private corporations do. Including the one I work for.

BTW: The US spends more per capita on health care than any other country in the world. Is it not so inconceivable to think that we are not getting our money's worth for the 15% of our GDP we are spending?
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Post by BSmack »

mvscal wrote:
BSmack wrote:Is it not so inconceivable to think that we are not getting our money's worth for the 15% of our GDP we are spending?
No, it isn't. What is inconceivable is that more government meddling will improve the situation.
Even though the rest of the industrialized world has done so at a net savings per capita compared to the US?

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Post by BSmack »

mvscal wrote:
BSmack wrote:Even though the rest of the industrialized world has done so at a net savings per capita compared to the US?
The best doctors from the "rest of the industrialized world" are currently working in the United States because they don't get paid shit.
Funny, the "best doctors in the world" are currently caring for a population that ranks 45th in the world in life expectancy.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... 2rank.html
The "rest of the industrialized world" has shit for healthcare compared to what we have. The "rest of the industrialized world" has their government telling them what treatment they will (or more likely) will not receive.
And yet most of these countries have healthier citizens at a far lower cost per capita than the US.
I don't give a fuck about the rest of the industrialized world. You like it? Leave.
How about we stay and make it better?
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Post by Dinsdale »

Ya'know... I'm getting about tired of this "everybody owes everybody else" mantra that's becoming so popluar.

It's going to take decades of uncomfortable shifts to fix it, but it can be done. We can right this ship.

First off, GET THE FUCKING GOVERMENT OUT OF BUSINESS!

Once we stop leeting special interests get an upper hand through corruption, things will get better. Until then, they'll get worse.

Finances dictate how EVERYTHING is done. Ever. Law of Humanity.

How has government's involvement(IE playing favorites) worked out with the oil industry(you know...that oil that American Citizens own)?

How has allowing certain drug companies to railraod legislation while smaller ones get left behind worked out?


How has welfare defeated the laws of supply-and-demand? When you create paying positions with the only qualification being poor, thereby creating a demand for that position worked out?


Sorry, you can't fight the free market. But you can sit idly by as government corruption messes with the system, and opens the door for countless abuses.


Socialism just makes it easier for unscrupulous people to take more than their fair share with the government's blessing. The more government involvement in the free market, the greater the abuses. And history agrees with me.
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Post by Dinsdale »

And if you look at the "real" countries on that list of life expectancy, and compare them to the countries with the highest percentage of smokers...


HEY, HOW BOUT THAT????


Maybe, just maybe, the "we need to defeat the free market system and start passing laws that make us feel morally superior" set is exaggerating statistics to get their way.


Nahhhh, no one would ever do that.
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Post by BSmack »

mvscal wrote:Half of those flyspecks aren't even real countries and none of them import millions of impoverished dirteaters every year either.
OK, let's eliminate the "flyspecks". That still leaves the US behind the following.

Japan
Sweden
Australia
Switzerland
France
Iceland
Canada
Italy
Spain
Norway
Israel
Greece
Austria
Netherlands
New Zealand
Germany
Belgium
United Kingdom
Finland
Jordan
Bosnia and Herzegovina

Pretty freakin pathetic for the "richest country on earth". And don't give me that crap about illegals. You and I both know that they don't show up on the census.
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Post by BSmack »

mvscal wrote:They show up in the morgue, don't they?
And without birth certificates the docs just saw off their legs and count the rings to tell how old they are. Right?
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Post by OCmike »

BSmack wrote: Even though the rest of the industrialized world has done so at a net savings per capita compared to the US?

:lol: :lol: :lol:
None of those countries have anywhere near the population of the US. Most of them are smaller than an average-sized state like Oregon. The sheer scope of what you're proposing is staggering and you think the government could run a program like that efficiently? :lol: is right.
And without birth certificates the docs just saw off their legs and count the rings to tell how old they are. Right?
You think they need a birth certificate to tell an approximate age? Geez, you're dumb.
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Post by BSmack »

OCmike wrote:
BSmack wrote: Even though the rest of the industrialized world has done so at a net savings per capita compared to the US?

:lol: :lol: :lol:
None of those countries have anywhere near the population of the US.
Note the operative words "per capita".
Most of them are smaller than an average-sized state like Oregon. The sheer scope of what you're proposing is staggering and you think the government could run a program like that efficiently? :lol: is right.
There are numerous instances of national health care programs being run right now by large industrialized nations. Quit pretending that it isn't possible.
You think they need a birth certificate to tell an approximate age? Geez, you're dumb.
No, more like an exact age.
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Post by OCmike »

BSmack wrote:
Note the operative words "per capita".
I wasn't aware there'd be math involved. :D

Point being, just because Monaco can successfully run a socialized healthcare system doesn't mean the US Gov't can. I notice you steered clear of my point about it "being run efficiently." Hell, our gov't can even run the VA system well and they see 1 million patients per year. Just about everyone gets sick once a year, but let's stay conservative and say that they had to see 200 million patients per year. You seriously think that could be done efficiently and without staggering losses? No way.
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Post by BSmack »

OCmike wrote:
BSmack wrote:
Note the operative words "per capita".
I wasn't aware there'd be math involved. :D

Point being, just because Monaco can successfully run a socialized healthcare system doesn't mean the US Gov't can. I notice you steered clear of my point about it "being run efficiently." Hell, our gov't can even run the VA system well and they see 1 million patients per year. Just about everyone gets sick once a year, but let's stay conservative and say that they had to see 200 million patients per year. You seriously think that could be done efficiently and without staggering losses? No way.
Germany, France, England and Japan all have national health care systems and do so spending less per capita on health care than the US. They also have a higher life expectancy than the US.
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Post by LTS TRN 2 »

Well of course the U.S can't afford a basic health plan if the corporations continue to pay no taxes. Currently an astonishingly brazen bill is before the House that would effectively allow the corporate honchos to pay less tax than the folks who clean their toilets. Obviously this seems fine to a closet-Nazi asshole like babs, who has no friends, has nothing but bitter pissy bunker-hissings. What a phony!

But in Japan, the corporations actually pay taxes. And the public health care system actually works. Very interesting as to why Michael Moore didn't focus more on this corollary example (i.e., 120 million people in a nation the size of California). The reason, I suspect, was due to the tough permits and similar red tape involved in dealing with Japanese institutions.
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Post by PSUFAN »

I'm glad this thread continues to be relevant - not too surprising, really.

W finally received his Kyoto Protocol invite:

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/ ... geNumber=1
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