Biggio

[Harvdog]

Craig is definetly a first balot HOF'er. Look at what he has meant to his team, the players, and the game of baseball

My point: 3,000 hits has always been the benchmark, just like 500 home runs and 300 pitching victories, to be a shoo-in to the HOF. With the steroid era, the HR number is sure to raise to 600. Considering that only 27 players have ever hit 3000 that is amazing in itself.

Biggio has hit for power with 287 career jacks (he is third all-time in home runs by a second baseman).

He has hit for average. His career average is .282. His highest season was in 1998 when he hit .325. He also has a career OB% of .365.

He is sixth on the career doubles list with 658 and 13th in runs scored. He became only the second player, joining Tris Speaker, in the last century, to collect at least 50 doubles and 50 stolen bases in the same season.

He's a seven-time NL All-Star, including the first player to ever make the team at both catcher (1991) and second base (1992) in consecutive seasons.

He's won four Gold Gloves as a second baseman.

He was 5th in the MVP balloting in 1998. He hit .325 20 HR 88 RBI 51 Doubles 50 SB. He also hit leadoff.

It is an easy decision. He is a first ballot HOF'er

It should be an open-and-shut case

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Biggio is called a 'stat-compiler' because he's put up exceptional career numbers without ever being recognized as a dominant, great, MVP-type playah.

I'd be willing to bet the guys he has played against would disagree with you. But I know, I know...those of us who watch on tv and from the bleacher seats probably know more than the guys who do this stuff professionally.

I can think of several "MVP-type playahs" who didn't, or will never enter the HoF. To me, playing great over a long haul as a multiple-tool player, whilst doing most of it at (arguably) the most demanding position in the game is a more accurate display of "dominance" than just having one or two "MVP-type" seasons. Even though I know what you mean, I'm just trying to put some perspective on this whole "dominance" thing. Winning an MVP means you were great for a season. Getting into the ever exclusive 3K hit club means you were dominant for an entire career. Of course doing both would be ideal, but if it was a "this or that" type thing I would elect somebody into the HoF based on stats (you know, that stuff they did on the field) over a media-dictated trophy any day of the week. Come on. Let's not let the writers decide for us who is great. We have brains. We can look at the proof and think this stuff up on or own. And if anybody who is honest with himself looks at this guy's resume, it'd be simple to recognize how great he was.

Todd - I'll bite on your trolljob. I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by this whole Biggio's a "no-namer" angle. Certainly baseball fans and the writers responsible for voting these guys in understand how relevant the guy has been, and I doubt he'll be "punished" simply because he didn't play in a major market like NY. And though Houston's no NY, it ain't exactly Tampa or Montreal either.

[Harvdog]

Oh...is that where he played? Houston?


Well...they're going to get Clemens and Pettite voted in first ballot very soon. So lets hope they're satisfied with that concession.


But as I said earlier- if they don't like the fact that he doesn't belong in the hall then they are free to build their own.

Yeah, Houston. I know for someone as metro as yourself it is hard to think outside of your little closet of dreams. Houston is the 4th largest city in America. We actually have been playing sports here for years. We even have indoor plumbing and electricity. Craig has been in the majors for 19 years. He has had some teammates that have overshadowed his work. I am sure you have heard of Jeff Bagwell? Lance Berkman? Roger Clemens? While Biggio wass a consistent player for 15 years, he had Jeff Bagwell hitting all the home runs and getting all the press. Funny thing is, if you ask all the fans of baseball, they will tell you that Biggio meant more to the team than Jeff. Jeff hit for power. He couldn't throwe the ball from first to home though.

Biggio will be a first ballot elect. No doubt.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

if they don't like the fact that he doesn't belong in the hall then they are free to build their own.

Unless you've got the writers locked in your basement, and held at gunpoint, Biggio will be in the Hall. Sorry you had to find out this way.

[Harvdog]

No doubt if you built a Houston Hall of Fame he would be a first elect.


A lot of us in the other 99.something percent of the planet think otherwise....including those who actually vote players in.



So you see, there is indeed some doubt. And a very strong doubt at that.

Right, because Houston has no others that could get in? Clemens? Nolan Ryan? Ever hear of those guys? Moron. The only thing as clear as his first ballot election is that you are a complete idiot who is a shitty troll.

[Harvdog]

No doubt if you built a Houston Hall of Fame he would be a first elect.


A lot of us in the other 99.something percent of the planet think otherwise....including those who actually vote players in.



So you see, there is indeed some doubt. And a very strong doubt at that.

Right, because Houston has no others that could get in? Clemens? Nolan Ryan? Ever hear of those guys? Moron. The only thing as clear as his first ballot election is that you are a complete idiot who is a shitty troll.

It just so happens that I have heard of those guys. They were well known players that played on teams that mattered.

They stood out.....Does or did Biggio stand out?


You have some pretty ridiculous myopia goggles on if you think Biggio is getting in on the first ballot. I'm saying that he isn't even getting in at all. With the exception of tip-toeing somehow to 3000 hits, none of those stats you posted are HoF worthy.

Name off any team out there and you'll probably find three guys that played for them within the last 20 years more deserving....Pettie, Clemens, and Bags...in your case.

What did Bagwell do? He choked in the post season. Pettitte? Right. He won't make the Yankee or Astro hall of fame. Yeah, Biggio tiptoed all the way to 3000 hits. Your stupidity knows no ends.

[Harvdog]

And I suppose you're now going to tell me that Biggio carried his team singlehandedly to a world championship?

Perhaps the reason Biggio didn't choke in the post season is because he had so little experience there.

Right...considering he and Bagwell were teammates in all the post season that Houston has made since 1997 that is a stupid comment. You just keep digging a deeper hole about stuff you know nothing about. Houston made the playoffs in 1997, 1998, 1999, 2001, 2004, and 2005. They made the WS in 2005. But since you know so much about the history of baseball and what makes a great player I am just repeating my self. :roll: Here is a thought to ponder.....when Craig goes in First ballot will you hungus?

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

I'm saying that he isn't even getting in at all.

Incredible. How thick do the pinstripe glasses have to be in order to be so myopic? And by "myopic" I partly mean, completely fucking retarded.

Todd, you'd be much better off changing your stance to YOU don't THINK he should be in the Hall; Not he won't be in the Hall. The guy's a freaking lock. Rational professional minds, and people who aren't named Toddowen, will be deciding this thing. You do realize that right? If his gaudy stats aren't quite enough to get him in (which they will be), his representation as a "players' player," a "character guy" and a "clubhouse guy" will get him in. Writers and voters eat shit like that up. Tell me you knew? And if that's not enough, his entire duration with one team will be enough to seal the deal. Again, writers LOVE cuddly little sports stories like that. PLEASE tell me you knew.

Face it. Regardless of what YOU want to see happen, the guy's in. Just accept it.

[poptart]

The media has steadily painted a picture of of Biggio as a 'clubhouse' guy, etc., however, those of us that live(d) in H-town are also aware of some 'problems' and 'rumblings' surrounding him in the clubhouse.

I think there were some problems during the Larry Dierker years, for example.

Rozy mentioned that he's not a Biggio guy, and perhaps this has something to do with it.
But I don't know for sure where rozy is coming from.

At any rate, Biggio is definitely IN the Hall though, no doubt about it.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

He may have been 30-40 years ago

Nope. If anything, this era is MORE of a lock to get him in because his ability to do what he's done with one team stands out from the crowd, whereas in years past, this wouldn't have been as big a deal.

Todd,

Your problem here still is the fact your argument sounds too much like it's coming from Toddowen, who won't have a vote, and not from the guys who will be deciding this. Your completely missing the point. Your big obstacle here is that you have to convince me that the writers are going to feel the same way as you, and based on the fact they tend to have nothing but great things to say about the guy, that'll be quite the task on your part. Your opinion here is in the strong minority. Do you really think they'll be as hesitant and pesimistic as you are on this matter? Smart money wouldn't bank on that.

[War Wagon]

Houston is the 4th largest city in America. We even have indoor plumbing and electricity.

Not to mention furnaces, that some won't use even when it gets cold because their wife hates the 'smell'. :wink:

Biggio will be a first ballot elect. No doubt.

That might depend on which other players are up for induction in their 1st year of eligibility. He's a no doubt HoF'er, but not necessarily a slam dunk on the 1st ballot by any means.

What? You think he's comparable to George Brett? Niggah, please.

Oh, and Rack Todd for the troll effort. Niiice.

[rozy]

The media has steadily painted a picture of of Biggio as a 'clubhouse' guy, etc., however, those of us that live(d) in H-town are also aware of some 'problems' and 'rumblings' surrounding him in the clubhouse.

I think there were some problems during the Larry Dierker years, for example.

Rozy mentioned that he's not a Biggio guy, and perhaps this has something to do with it.
But I don't know for sure where rozy is coming from.

At any rate, Biggio is definitely IN the Hall though, no doubt about it.

Jeter won't be a first ballot because of his numbers though they'll be solid. He won't be a first ballot because he's a Yankee though the east coast bias is alive and well thanks to idiots like the shit troll in this thread. He'll be a first ballot HOFer because as the lights grow brighter he goes to a level only guys like Molitor, Brett and Reggie have gone to. Exceptional when it COUNTS! Before the '04 season Biggio's postseason numbers were embarrassing. I hate cliches. I hate guys that won't allow their pitchers to retaliate. I hate guys that think they are bigger and more important to the team than the manager or general manager and their say so should be lifted above the aforementioned team staff. Clubhouse guy? Ask Mike Hampton about Biggio.

That being said, the numbers are just too massive to ignore. The body of work demands first ballot entry and only a mental dwarf like Tarddowen would argue otherwise.

Smackie, you can take any sport and mention the elite of the elite players in a deific manner. I would never intimate that Molitor is Babe Ruth. But he's certainly no Biggio, Yount, or Sutton either. Not that any of this really matters any more. As long as Gary Carter and Ryne Sandberg are in, the Hall simply ain't the same anyhoo.

[Mikey]

A solid player for a long time. Bigs probably belongs in the HOF. 3000 hits by itself should get him in but I'm not sure I see him as a first ballot inductee.

I don't see any MVP awards.
I don't see any batting titles, whether for average, HR or RBI.

He was 5th in the MVP balloting in 1998.

Not exactly an accoumplishment of note.

His career average is .282.

I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of players with higher career averages that aren't in.


Question: Is Rickey Henderson a 1st ballot HOFer? I think he becomes eligible next year, and I'm pretty sure you could make a stronger case for Rickey than for Bigs.

[Qbert]

ahem....quit piling ON Biggio....he's IN.

Mikey

Damn...i'd have to say YES.

there hasn't been a Leadoff Hitter lke RICKEY! EVER!!!!!!

have you heard about our MLB Forum?????

[Mikey]

have you heard about our MLB Forum?????

I thought it was one of those members only special invite forums. Sort of like Cooking.

And yes, I'd say Rickey should definitely be in.
And I'll repeat that Bigs should be in too, but who knows how the writers think.

[Smackie Chan]

Smackie, you can take any sport and mention the elite of the elite players in a deific manner. I would never intimate that Molitor is Babe Ruth. But he's certainly no Biggio, Yount, or Sutton either. Not that any of this really matters any more. As long as Gary Carter and Ryne Sandberg are in, the Hall simply ain't the same anyhoo.

When you say that Molitor is no Yount, are you implying that Molitor's career was more deserving of induction than Yount's? I'd say that they very closely mirror each other. Molitor played for 21 years to Yount's 20. Career hits: Molitor - 3,319, Yount - 3,142; BA: Molitor - .306, Yount - .285; OBP: Molitor - .369, Yount - .342; Slugging: Molitor - .448, Yount - .430. Yount was the youngest player in the league for three years, Molitor was the oldest for four. Yount won two MVPs and a Gold Glove, while Molitor was never so honored, yet Molitor was a seven-time All-Star to Yount's three. (Ironically, Yount wasn't an All-Star in '89, but was that year's AL MVP.) Lastly, who do you think, according to Baseball-Reference.com, Paul Molitor's career batting stats are most closely compared to? That's right - Robin Yount. (The two players Yount's are most closely compared to? Molitor and Biggio!) So I'd say that my assessment of their respective (and respectable) careers is spot-on.

I have no problem with Ryno being in the Hall, but Carter is another story.

Any more, I don't see players getting inducted without some sort of benchmark numbers, like 500 HRs, 3K hits, 3K Ks, or 300 victories. Defensive prowess won't get players like Omar Vizquel or Jim Edmunds enshrined, and sheer longevity won't be enough for Julio Franco. It's all about the stats.

[Harvdog]

Wow. Yount had career numbers of .285 with an OBP of .342 and a slugging % of .430. 3000 hits and he played for 20 years in Milwaukee.

Biggio has a career average if .282, OBP of .365 and a slugging % of .435. 3000 hits and he has only played 19 years. Toddowen?

[poptart]

Yount was a two-time league MVP.

Biggio?

[Smackie Chan]

Wow. Yount had career numbers of .285 with an OBP of .342 and a slugging % of .430. 3000 hits and he played for 20 years in Milwaukee.

Biggio has a career average if .282, OBP of .365 and a slugging % of .435. 3000 hits and he has only played 19 years. Toddowen?

Milwaukee is much more of a sports Mecca than Houston.

- Todd

[Harvdog]

Yount was a two-time league MVP.

Biggio?

So was Juan Gonzales.

[poptart]

And ...........



Hey, Yount and Biggio may have very similar career numbers, but only a numbnut would equate them.
Yount demonstrated that, like Biggio, he was a grinder, but he also had the ability to rise up and be a DOMINANT player.

I've already said that Biggio will make the Hall.
First ballot?
I dunno 'bout that.
As rozy said, it depends on who else happens to be up for election that year.

[Smackie Chan]

The only question at this point (Toddowen's trolling notwithstanding) is if Biggio is a first-ballot inductee. Right or wrong, voters look at eligible players with similar or better numbers who are not in, and base their decisions accordingly. Other than Rose, what other members of the 3K hit club are on the outside looking in? Why should Biggio be the first? He's one of only 27 players to reach that milestone - pretty exclusive company by any standard.

His plaque will read something like:

Played entire career with Houston Astros
Amassed > 3,000 hits
Seven-time All-Star
Played three different positions (infield, outfield, and battery)
Four Gold Gloves
Five Silver Sluggers
Led NL in games played three times, plate appearances five times, runs scored twice, doubles three times, stolen bases once, HBP five times, times on base once
1997 Branch Rickey Award Recipient
2005 Hutch Award Recipient

I'm guessing there are more than a few inductees who have less stellar CVs than this.

[Harvdog]

And ...........



Hey, Yount and Biggio may have very similar career numbers, but only a numbnut would equate them.
Yount demonstrated that, like Biggio, he was a grinder, but he also had the ability to rise up and be a DOMINANT player.

I've already said that Biggio will make the Hall.
First ballot?
I dunno 'bout that.
As rozy said, it depends on who else happens to be up for election that year.

While I agree with what you are saying, if Yount was a frist ballot, then Biggio is too. Yount made the post season in 1982. Biggio made it 6 times. Both lost in their only trip to the WS. They were similar players. Both left it all on the field. I thought Yount was a first ballot. Since I have had the chance to watch Biggio's career closely, obviously I am a little biased. That being said, it does not take away from what he has accomplished. MVP's or not, he has been a great player his entire career. To make the All-Star as a catcher and 2B that is huge. Like Yount, Biggio played on some pretty shitty teams. Yet, he was always consistant.

Who cares about Mike Hampton? That guy was the biggest waste of money in the history of baseball. I was happy to see him go elsewhere. If he doesn't like Biggio, big deal. I bet if you took a straw poll of the player that have played with Craig, there would be more positive than negative statements.

[Smackie Chan]

The point about who else is on the ballot during Biggio's first year of eligibility is certainly valid, considering the number of current players who are future HoF'ers:

Clemens
Maddux
Sosa
Bonds
Piazza
Jeter
Glavine
A-Rod
Griffey, Jr.
Pudge
R. Johnson
F. Thomas
Hoffman
Rivera
ManRam

On the bubble (as of now):
Mussina
Thome
V. Guerrero
P. Martinez
Smoltz
Ortiz
Ichiro

McGuire may still be awaiting induction then, as will others who have recently retired and some I may have forgotten.

[War Wagon]

As rozy said, it depends on who else happens to be up for election that year.

No 'tart. I said that, not rozy. Get your story straight. rozy thinks he's a 1st ballot slam dunk.

[poptart]

Oooops, my bad.
Sorry Wagon.
You've always had more wisdom than rozy.


Who's on the forklift while you're surfing the net, Wagon?
One of the wetties?

Happy Monday!

[rozy]

The point about who else is on the ballot during Biggio's first year of eligibility is certainly valid, considering the number of current players who are future HoF'ers:

Clemens
Maddux
Sosa
Bonds
Piazza
Jeter
Glavine
A-Rod
Griffey, Jr.
Pudge
R. Johnson
F. Thomas
Hoffman
Rivera
ManRam

On the bubble (as of now):
Mussina
Thome
V. Guerrero
P. Martinez
Smoltz
Ortiz
Ichiro

McGuire may still be awaiting induction then, as will others who have recently retired and some I may have forgotten.

I'm not going to continue the hairsplitting on the Molitor deal.

So let's really have some fun here. You mentioned someone in your previous post who myself, ucant, and several others round these parts consider a no doubter. I watched Ozzie play his entire career. On his VERY BEST day he was NEVER the baseball player Vizquel is. NEVER. There is a very large media contingent already preparing for that battle. Every time I hear any talk show on radio or TV any more talking about HOF possibilities Omar always gets the highest emotions stirred. Overwhelmingly positive. You will be shocked on this one, bro. Omar will be enshrined.

Pedro would be an interesting discussion. And would illicit many more emotional responses as he is an ultimate love-hate player. Hmmm....

[Mister Bushice]

Mikey said it best on page one.

How many 2nd basemen have accomplished what he did?

That alone might be enough.

[Smackie Chan]

Omar will be enshrined.

You may be right. He plays the right position to get in based almost solely on defensive ability, as is the case with both Ozzie and Luis Aparicio, who both, coincidentally, had career .262 batting averages. (Vizquel's is .275.) Aparicio also led the league in stolen bases for nine straight years, which I'm sure helped his cause. (On a side note, I played in a baseball league last year for over-38-year-olds in which Aparicio's son played. He obviously inherited his baseball skills from mom.) The only non-shortstop I can think of who got in based on defense is Brooks Robinson. Even as great as Mays was defensively, if he was a career .275 hitter w/ less than 400 HRs, he wouldn't be in. Can you think of any outfielders who got in based on defense?

Pedro would be an interesting discussion. And would illicit many more emotional responses as he is an ultimate love-hate player. Hmmm....

Two more Ks puts him at 3,000. Three Cy Youngs (two AL, one NL), five-time league leader in ERA, three-time league leader in Ks, and a winning % of almost .700 say he's in, even with just over 200 wins. Feel free to get emotional about it, but that won't keep him out.

[OCmike]

Excellent post, Smackie. I agree on Pedro.

Wins, just like HRs for batters, should not be the only barometer for who gets in and who doesn't.

To me, it's a matter of dominance, not a matter of numbers. If a guy is dominant at his position for several years and has at least most of the numbers to back it up, I say he's in. Not every guy is going to meet that magic criteria of 500 hrs or 300 wins, but some who don't still deserve to be in because they were the dominant players of their era.

[RumpleForeskin]

those of us that live(d) in H-town are also aware of some 'problems' and 'rumblings' surrounding him in the clubhouse.

Can you elaborate on this? I've been watching Biggio since his rookie season and have not known any problems he has caused in the clubhouse. Is it possible those could just be rumors b/c an ex-teammate said something that was possibly taken out of context by the media?

[War Wagon]

Omar will be enshrined.

You may be right. He plays the right position to get in based almost solely on defensive ability

What are you guys smoking?

[Smackie Chan]

What are you guys smoking?

If I tell you, will you forklift a pallet of it over to me?

[Y2K]

What are you guys smoking?

If I tell you, will you forklift a pallet of it over to me?

You guys were noticing the unique talents of a fucking excellent ballplayer?


Damned Stoners.....

.........Puff -Puff- Pass ..............

[War Wagon]

What are you guys smoking?

If I tell you, will you forklift a pallet of it over to me?

A measly pallet?

If rozy and/or yourself can convince me that Omar deserves enshrinement, I'll schedule a freaking flatbed.

Shake a tree, a good glove falls out.

[Smackie Chan]

To me, it's a matter of dominance, not a matter of numbers. If a guy is dominant at his position for several years and has at least most of the numbers to back it up, I say he's in. Not every guy is going to meet that magic criteria of 500 hrs or 300 wins, but some who don't still deserve to be in because they were the dominant players of their era.

I hate to keep bringing dude up, but imagine what might have been if Koufax had gone all Rickey Henderson and hung on for years longer than he should've. His enshrinement is based on the latter half of a short career, and he retired at the top of his game. But if he had stuck around for, say, another five years and been an average or worse pitcher during that time, his legend would've been tarnished, but his dominance over the years from '62-'66 would remain unchanged. Would a dominating five-year span out of a 17-year career make him a lock for the Hall?

[Smackie Chan]

Shake a tree, a good glove falls out.

Maybe, but it's the rare mine that produces the mother lode of Gold Gloves. Remember, my initial take was that he won't get in, because in recent years, the game has been defined by offensive stats. But shortstop is the one position on which greater weight is given to defensive prowess. Because of this and the number of current HoF'ers currently playing, he may have a tough time getting votes. If I'm not mistaken, there are fewer shortstops in the Hall than any other position, because it typically is one that doesn't produce players with gaudy offensive numbers. So if players are inducted based on comparisons to others who played the same position, you pretty much have to measure a shortstop's worth based on defense. If you do that, and assume that shortstop is no less an important position than any other, then he deserves enshrinement. If you don't believe defense is worthy of consideration, he doesn't. I'll say this - if he does get in, it'll be after he's been retired for more than ten years.

[poptart]

those of us that live(d) in H-town are also aware of some 'problems' and 'rumblings' surrounding him in the clubhouse.

Can you elaborate on this? I've been watching Biggio since his rookie season and have not known any problems he has caused in the clubhouse. Is it possible those could just be rumors b/c an ex-teammate said something that was possibly taken out of context by the media?

There was a lot of chatter on talk radio (and I also saw a couple of newspaper articles touching on the subject) during the Dierker years.
Talk that Biggio was undermining Dierker.
Talk that, as rozy said, Biggio seemed to think, by virtue of being a very established vet, that he ought to be listened to regarding team moves, etc.
Talk that other players didn't really dig him too much, but that since he was sort of a 'fan darling,' players just kept it to themselves.

I dunno ..... those are the things I remember.
Never interested me a whole lot.

[rozy]

Pedro would be an interesting discussion. And would illicit many more emotional responses as he is an ultimate love-hate player. Hmmm....

Two more Ks puts him at 3,000. Three Cy Youngs (two AL, one NL), five-time league leader in ERA, three-time league leader in Ks, and a winning % of almost .700 say he's in, even with just over 200 wins. Feel free to get emotional about it, but that won't keep him out.

You won't get me emotional. I agree completely. You saw pitchers I am too young to have seen, but that being said...and this comes from someone who DID see J.R., Pedro at the top of his game was the best I ever saw pitch. Period.

Wags, I'll rustle up some Omar stuff for you when I have a little more time.

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

Omar will be enshrined.

You may be right.

May be right? May?

He doesn't have the AS appearances that Ozzie had, but when you're playing in the same league as Nomar, A-Rod, and Jeter and it's the steroid era, it's tough to participate in the Mid Summer Classic. People want to see "hitters", not "fielders."

Regardless, he still will retire with 11+ GG (2 less than Ozzie) and 2500+ hits (more than Ozzie) and that should be more than enough.

Vizquel is a much better fielder than The Wizard ever was.... this coming from a Cardinals fan. Not only is that my belief based upon on years of seeing both play, check the "stats." The only thing Ozzie had on Omar was range. Vizquel is a SLAM DUNK HOF. Not a first timer, sure, because he'll be retiring around the same time as much sexier choices, but the voters will eventually come to their senses.