Ikea

[Dinsdale]

[q

The kid got shot, but he wasn't intentionally shot at. They meant no harm to the kid, they meant to save his life.


No one made a judgement or determination that it should be the kid.

I beg to differ.

By gross incompetance, they did indeed make that judgement.

It was a knife. The report you linked indicated there were several officers on scene. OBVIOUSLY a bum-rush would have been sound judgement in that situation, and it's an abomination that it wasn't what was done.

And no, I'm not a "it's always the cops fault" guy -- quite the contrary, as mentioned earlier. Most of those shootings aren't just justified, they're a public service.

Now, if dude was holding a GUN to the kid's head, and there was no rifle available on that short notice, then ONE cop would want to go for a headshot to save the kid's life. Another OBVIOUS judgement call. But it was a knife -- what bit of Einsteinesque reasoning leads one to believe that when "another ounce of pressure" is going to start cutting carotids and whatnot, then even if you did take him down with a shot/shots that that pressure wouldn't have netted the same outcome?

Common fucking sense.

Is it tough to make such judgements in the blink of an eye?

Fuck yeah it is. And that's what we pay them for, and offer up all that "convoluted training" at taxpayer expense.

And in the case of those officers, when it came down to brass tacks, that training was all for naught. They fucked up. Period. Buh-Freking-Bye. Never to be employed as a cop again, since their judgement can't be trusted.

Unfair?

Probably.

Right?

Definitely. It's the job they signed up for, and it's a service the taxpayers pay them for. If they prove an inability to not perform at a high level, then to hell with them.

To reiterate -- I believe the overwhelming majority of Portland Police(and I've grown pretty familiar with their act over the years, unfortunately, by my own hand) do a great job. I'm guessing you did too. But the protection afforded to the ones who don't absolutely destroy the credibility of the entire department, which you somewhat alluded to.

And that's one incedent. There was of course the dumb bitch who forgot that whole "Constitution" thing she was sworn to uphold, and decided she knew better. Hearsay from a neighbor without affidavit suddenly became "probable cause"(could have sworn this is covered in the Bill of Rights) to start breaking people's doors down without warrants.

You know what I'm talking about, Luth.

One less rogue cop to worry about... paid for her crime with her life. I'm sad for those she left behind, but she broke the law.

BTW -- sweet coverup the Popo pulled by killing that guy in the hospital. Couldn't feed himself, pee, or sit up in bed under his own power for days. First time he was left unsupervised for a few minutes, he magically hanged himself in a way that's logistically impossible. I think ther official report went something like "suicide, because we said so." And when his lawyer tried to open an investigation, they threatened him with jail. He decided to persue it anyway, and something happened to shut him up in a big hurry.


Accountability?

Nope. Blame the "perp" for excercising his Constitutional right to defend his property from armed intruders.

Why?

Because his neighbor accused him of a crime they didn't witness, and wouldn't sign their name to.

Did the other cop get fired?

Nope. Probably got promoted.

Blame everyone else.

It might be time to start holding cops personally responsible for financial liability.


But rhetoric aside -- if the cops can't police themselves, it's asinine to expect the public to trust them in any other aspect of policework. A zero-tolerance policy when bad judgement results in major injury or death to a civilian would be an outstanding start.

[War Wagon]

By all means share with us the cruel injustices you must have suffered at the hands of the 'Five Oh.'

I never give them any reason to inflict pain on my person. They are to be avoided at all costs.

But I've seen how they roll.

Hostage situation in my 'hood at a McDonalds not that long ago. I started a thread slamming the KC cops. Jilted ex goes and confronts his ex-strange with a toy gun and holds cops at bay for a few hours. Finally, they trick the distraught dumbfuck into agreeing to open the door to take a cell phone for "negotiating" purposes. As one cop is handing him the cell phone, another right behind blows him away.

Yeah, fine police work there. Those cops were late for dinner, and this asshole was making them later. Here's how we're going to handle this, boys.... and we'll all be home in time for dinner. Should make for some good conversation around the table.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

When you drive forklifts for a living, it's pretty easy to shout "INJUSTICE!" at the faces of others. There'll most certainly never come a day when a society binds together and cries about the unlawful and corrupt tactics of warehouse pallet stacking.

[War Wagon]

Nice post, idiot.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Joking aside, my point stands clear. You've chosen the easy route in life. Fine. Nothing wrong with that. But when you decide to criticize those who have some balls and take real, actual risks to perform a job, then your complaints are about as credible as Atomic Punk after a 12 pack and access to an internet connection.

[Luther]

Wow. So let me get this right. I start a thread about Ikea and you initially try to get over about what state has the worst drivers. You get slapped around for that and suggest I chill out as your just trying to bait the guy from Idaho. Wasn't going well for you at that point so you threw out some police incident that I wasn't involved in? Is that one of those "Well that didn't work so I'll just bring up cop stories from the past that didn't involve Luther?"

I politely answered your questions, offered my angle on it and still not satisfied, you are now going to bring up yet another police incident where I wasn't directly involved?

Do you want me to be the Shell answer man for every police incident in Portland, maybe the NW, or maybe even the nation? Yeah, I know you don't have a challenging job, a person selling paint or contracting it out probably doesn't have any issues that could even be considered "ball park" of either public service, military service and whatnot, but now you are suggesting they should have had a rifle? Maybe the knife wasn't as bad as a gunshot to the neck? Actually, I'd take my chances with a gunshot to the neck than having my carotid cut in half. How about you? Why don't you write a letter to Mr. and Mrs. Thomas and ask their opinion on the matter? I'll wager they'll say they harbor no hate toward the police, only sadness. They'll say they actively participated in mental health type of call training for all metro area police officers. They used to (unsure if it is the case now) appear when the Police Bureau presented the "Nathan Thomas Award" for exceptional police work in the field of mental illness and such.

Years, and I'm talking probably ten years now, I didn't want my occupation brought up on the board, for obvious reasons. It is a no win situation. Tragic stories happen all the time, ...some work out for the good guys and sometimes they don't. Once I retired I loosened up a tad and even responded to some threads involving police issues. Many old timers (sup Nos, Mace, Toos, Jay, ChargerMike, MCAT etc.) knew what I did. I didn't post about it and for the most part sans a few slips, I stayed anonymous. They could attest that I figured I'd have someone want me to answer for it all. On occasion my job was mentioned but no one ever did the routine like, "I had a Doctor once that did this and that...or my priest did this and that, or You're a teacher, so did you molest this or that? Until now anyway.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I truly am sorry that you don't respect my opinion on this issue, In the past I have been a big time critic on a lot of ridiculous things that police are asked to do, or that that they do in the course of the job. For the most part I could throw all the shit you'd bring up on incidents that I was privy to but it just seems so Dr. Detroit/Risa/Index like that it makes me sick. I would think that most people would say that I bring the funny and that includes humorous things that have happened to me on the job etc.

You are the biggest homer that Portland has to offer, ...the weather, the trees, rivers and shit like that. I would say I know a hell of a lot more about the neighborhoods, the people in them and whatnot. You however want me/us to all believe that you know it all. On that, this is another issue that we'll have to agree to disagree.

Rip City

[War Wagon]

Joking aside, my point stands clear. You've chosen the easy route in life.

Oh, really? Working my ass off my entire life so that I can pay bills and taxes is the easy route? Gee, I guess I don't wanna' know what the hard route is.

Nothing wrong with that. But when you decide to criticize those who have some balls and take real, actual risks to perform a job...

Oh please Magoo, save the theatrics. When cops needlessly gun somebody down in a premeditated fashion like the instance I related, somebody better fucking complain about it.

But it's par for the course. It'll make a few headlines for awhile, and a few whimpers from the family whose son got legally murdered. Maybe a few letters to the editor in the opinion section.

Meanwhile, the killer will be placed on "administrative" suspension with pay for a few days or weeks and then be exonerated. It's like an easy way to get paid vacation. I'll bet they brag about it like Dins brags about nailing a skank.

[War Wagon]

I'm pretty sure that Luth was always a good cop, btw.

[Luther]

You know WW, I don't know anything about the KC incident...but I might have some problems with the precedent set for shooting someone right after they give him a cell phone on the intentions to "try and work things out." It just makes it so much more harder for future hostage negotiators in the future to deal with someone when all they have to say is, "You want me to open the door to take a phone so what? So you can blow me away?"

However, no details were listed as to what happened at the door, what was said, what the cop saw, blah blah. On the other hand, you know what would be posted had say, your sister was laying there inside, pistol whipped unconscious and shit head is there with the gun. Tard turns around, becomes upset with the negotiator and slams down the phone and breaks it.

He yells out, "Fuck you, I ain't going alone."

He caps your sister in the head, and does the same to himself. Wouldn't you reasonably say, "Fuck officer, you had the chance to end it all...the guy was trapped in the store, he had no out, he had no hope, he wasn't going back to jail...he knew it was over and took my sister with him."

Just another no win situation for some people.

Rip City

[Racer X]

I open up Portland's local rag and the big story on page one is, "Get in Line for Gridlock," which is a story about the future grand opening of an Ikea store on july 25th.

Ikea article in OregonLive

The newspaper article is a little different than the link but it says they expect 150,000 people. The new store is situated out toward Portland International Airport and they warn travellers to expect delays on the freeway. They also said the store will hire out 40 Portland cops at the cost of $120,000 to direct traffic to and from the store.

WTF?

Someone explain to me why this is going to be such a big deal, as isn't an allen wrench the main tool to put the supposedly "cheap" furniture together? I'm not a big fan of modular furniture or the "limited assembly required" shit. Typically after a few years, I use the assembled stuff for firewood or stands for garage sales in our cul de sack.

The article said that seven years ago in NoCal a store opening caused a two week gridlock. Hell, in 1995 it said three people were stampeded to death at an Ikea opening in Saudia Arabia.

Anybody own any of this Scandinavian furniture and is it worth a crap?

Rip City

It the same crap as the Crispy Cream/ Hooters/ Wal-Mart phenomenon here in Portland. Did they really have to F up Waddles to put that crap in? Does Vancouver really need a Crispy Cream that no one goes to? No. Do we need 5 Wal-Marts for fat, Mickey Mouse sweatshirt wearing, grubby faced kid toting losers to go to get thier Generic cigs and Bud light at 3 am?
Just a case of "Hey, look what we have now!" In 6 months nobody will care.

I'll go to Club 205 or the Acropolis for my titties. I'll stop by Safeway of Freddies for groceries. I'll go to McMenamins for my beer. I'll get my furniture pre-assembled thank you.

[War Wagon]

You know WW, I don't know anything about the KC incident...but I might have some problems with the precedent set for shooting someone right after they give him a cell phone on the intentions to "try and work things out." It just makes it so much more harder for future hostage negotiators in the future to deal with someone when all they have to say is, "You want me to open the door to take a phone so what? So you can blow me away?"

However, no details were listed as to what happened at the door, what was said, what the cop saw, blah blah.

Luth, I saw it first hand via the live TV shots. This after I drove past a bit earlier and the whole area was cordoned off. I eat breakfast at this joint.

Cop walks up with a cell phone proferred in his outstretched hand. There's another right behind with gun drawn, and I mean heel to toe. The second that chump opened that door and reached out to grab the phone, the phone bitch bends over and the back-up cop takes him out. Just like that. End of story. Everyone can go home now.

He had a fake fucking gun, Luth.

Yeah, the cops didn't know that. But the guy was looking for a way out at this point, and that's what he got instead. Excuse me if I'm rather jaded towards police actions. I know they don't always go down this way, probably a very small percentage do. But they can go down this way, and that bothers me.

[Goober McTuber]

We had two instances here in the past week of apparent "suicide by cop". Can't imagine what those officers are going through. Not all police officers are saints, but by and large they perform extremely well in a largely thankless job. The cops here are basically pretty decent. I've found that if you're a good citizen, you'll probably not deal with the cops in their professional capacity.

I don't know about the police force in Portland, but if Luther is representative of the group, they're probably pretty decent cops.

I don't know about the police in KC, but judging by the representatives of the KC populace here, KC police should be shooting first and asking questions never.

[Luther]

Well, I don't know WW. All this goes to the grand jury, DA presents it, witnesses testify, physical evidence and so for. What you see on the TV was just the end, so even though I don't like it either it is still not enough for me to draw a definite conclusion. I imagine some departments operate with the belief that once the threat of deadly force occurs than all the gloves come off. Lie to the suspect, do anything to take his advantage away and neutralize the threat. Innocent people first, suspect second and let the chips fall later in court. Seriously though, the arguments go both ways especially in this day and age. With round the clock news on TV, high speed chases always on TV and suspects going out with a "bang"...there is a segment of thought that says that you have to take the initiative. I prefer it a little more flexible, Dins would probably just stroll in and have a burger with him and mvscal would vaporize the block figuring the suspect had a birth mother responsible for all this in the neighborhood. :D

I was going to break out with a "Can you hear me now?" TV quote, but this thread went from prefab furniture, to bad cops to titty bars to another bad burger and situation at McD's. Wait for the evidence to show itself later, WW. Update us later.

btw, what is the general feeling about the cops in KC in general? Are they hired from civil service tests, local tests, old boy system, what? Are for the most part the force fairly well educated? It probably doesn't make a difference in the argument but I was curious.

Rip City

[Dinsdale]

You know WW, I don't know anything about the KC incident...but I might have some problems with the precedent set for shooting someone right after they give him a cell phone on the intentions to "try and work things out." It just makes it so much more harder for future hostage negotiators in the future to deal with someone when all they have to say is, "You want me to open the door to take a phone so what? So you can blow me away?"

Hate to burst your bubble, Luth, but I was actually siding with the cops, based on the limited info WW provided.

But then you came along and offered a professional perspective, and I rethought my stance.

you are now going to bring up yet another police incident where I wasn't directly involved?

Not at all. I took offense to your seemingly anti-accountability stance.

I would say I know a hell of a lot more about the neighborhoods, the people in them and whatnot. You however want me/us to all believe that you know it all. On that, this is another issue that we'll have to agree to disagree.

Brings up another problem -- police arrogance.

I'm pretty sure over the years, I've alluded to the fact I've been involved in some less-than-legal activities. Never hurt anyone, but I did some illegal shit regardless.

Now, what do you suppose a cop's entire fucking function is?

Maybe to catch people doing illegal shit?

You somehow think you've cornered the market on the nerighborhoods and whatnot, but there's a reality there you're just not catching on to -- without me, there is no you.

Sinking in?

And I'm willing to bet my bottom dollar that I spent a great deal more time conversing with and interacting with certain parts of the criminal element than you. It's funny how much more smoothly a conversation is, and how much more forthcoming the players are when you enter that arena with a wad of cash, rather than a badge and a gun.

Again -- did I ever hurt anyone? No.

Did things get out of control on an occasion, and firearms became involved? No comment.


There's a whole part of that "seedy underbelly"(I think that was your term) that a police officer sees very little of, or not for very long at a stretch, anyway.

Two sides to every story. And you're the MAN when it comes to one side of it. I'm no slouch when it comes to the other. I've seen a lot of shit from "the dark side" that very few ever will. Police see the tail end of those things occasionally. But until the police success rate hits 100%, then the other side is seeing more of it than they are, obviously.


There you go(pronounced as one word in U&Lese).

[Dinsdale]

Nice to see the Racer around, even though he's a Spuncouver methhead.

Hope all is well.

I'll go to Club 205

Spoken like someone who hasn't been to 205 in a long time. I got dragged in there recently(a couple of times, actually). Pretty freaking gangbanging these days. One of those visits, a very polite young African American gentleman was trying to pimp his sister to us.

That was fresh.

If you want to avoid the gangsta element, 205 is a good place to avoid, at least late at night. As is Jody's anymore. And anywhere Up Nof' goes without saying.

Haven't been to the Crop in a long time, but I believe it's still pretty kosh. Not in the part of town that lends itself to the banger element quite so much. But if you go, watch out -- the Portland Police have decided that people speeding down McLoughlin are the scourge of society, and going over the limit on a mile-long staightaway with no sidestreets, a median, and two lanes each way is a public safety crisis. I guess they have nothing better to do these days than expend 3 units to generate revenue.(I'd warn Luth about McLoughlin, but I'm guessing he's pretty immune to that shit. Plus, he's like 75 now, and probably neither breaks 43MPH or ever turns off his left blinker).

[Mikey]

One really nice thing about a charcoal bbq is that you don't have to remember to go out and turn off the gas.

[Dinsdale]

charcoal bbq

No, that's his stepfather.

[Luther]

You're going to side with the cops with that limited information?

Hostage situation in my 'hood at a McDonald's not that long ago. I started a thread slamming the KC cops. Jilted ex goes and confronts his ex-strange with a toy gun and holds cops at bay for a few hours. Finally, they trick the distraught dumbfuck into agreeing to open the door to take a cell phone for "negotiating" purposes. As one cop is handing him the cell phone, another right behind blows him away.

Obviously the determination that the gun was a toy was after blood was shed, or this would have been over before the lunch hour even ended. He's already been in the building for two hours which is just a tad bit different that Mr. French who's got a knife shoved up to a kids throat, threatens to kill him by the time her reaches the count of 1, ...and he begins to count and the cop(s) rush up the stairs and engage French. Big fucking difference there. French had no phone, wanted no phone...he wanted to die. He left two notes at home saying he was going to "Die tonight."

Huge difference. The guy in the McD's still has to be treated as a deadly threat, until he gives it up, and or the gun is found to be just a toy and isn't deadly. Tell me you don't really think with just the limited info WW gives that it was just kosher to cap the guy on the pretext that they are handing him a phone to negotiate? WW didn't post anything about the guy strangling anybody with the door jamb, he didn't mention anything about anything whatsoever even remotely imminent that was a direct threat to anybody, did he? Show me where, Dins.

Now if LATER, like I said, if things develop and information is released then one can make a case out of a deadly force argument. I'm not saying I wouldn't have shot the guy at the onset, but it looks kind of goofy if he's been holed up with the McNuggets for a couple of hours and the TV crew is outside filming the whole thing. If the cop is driving by, see's the tard enter the restaurant brandishing the gun, waving it around, maybe grabs his skank girlfriend and then steps outside to see if the cops are around and suddenly gets capped in the noggin with a police Glock...I have no problem with that. Is it a felony in progress? Oh hell yeah, kidnap I (probably multiple counts), menacing, maybe Robbery, maybe anything else that he may have done inside, but WW didn't post any of the sort. My point is I just have an initial problem with the facts, as how WW posted, and what happened. I'm not so sure if you polled every Hostage negotiator for every police department in the nation if they'd say, "Cap him if you can." I don't think you'd have had a problem with the French deal had all of the bullets had struck French. Had I been at the bottom of those stairs Dins, and French starts counting down, I'd probably have just said "Fuck it," and ran up and jambed my revolver (I don't think we'd moved to auto's yet) into his head and shot his ass. So what would you say to me then Dins had French sizzored Nathan's neck on the last two steps prior to me reaching him?

There is no immediacy in what WW posted. Just a tard, with what looks like a gun, holed up for 2 HOURS and waiting for a Verizon phone. You'd cap the guy, really? No wonder you're in the painting industry...not that anything is wrong with that unless you sharpen the wood stirrer into a sharp object.

But you knew that already didn't you?

Rip City

[Mister Bushice]

Joking aside, my point stands clear. You've chosen the easy route in life.

Oh, really? Working my ass off my entire life so that I can pay bills and taxes is the easy route? Gee, I guess I don't wanna' know what the hard route is.

Dude. You work a job that any high school reject could be trained to do. The most difficult part of your week is deciding which day to ask your wife to mow the lawn without pissing her off that you're not out there doing it yourself.

It must suck that your son is no longer around to do your chores for you.

[Dinsdale]

Had I been at the bottom of those stairs Dins, and French starts counting down, I'd probably have just said "Fuck it," and ran up and jambed my revolver (I don't think we'd moved to auto's yet) into his head and shot his ass. So what would you say to me then Dins had French sizzored Nathan's neck on the last two steps prior to me reaching him?

I'd say you did the right thing.


BTW -- your report on the matter said 14 shots were fired. Unless dude reloaded his wheelgun a couple of times to bust a couple more into the kid, I'd say he was probably sporting an auto.

See, YOU would have bumrushed and tried to put one between the eyes. Might have worked, might not. At least YOU would have given the kid a chance. 14 freaking shots, Luth. 14. That's not acting in the interest of public safety, that's straight up panic -- and huge grounds to take his badge away forever.

I mean, didn't we have this discussion about the % of police bullets that hit paydirt? Sorry, dude -- you rattle off 14 in a panic, and a whole bunch of other shit besides the perp is getting hit. And when the victim is standing adjacent to the perp, common fucking sense dictates that some of those 14 are going to hit the victim. Common fucking sense -- if you don't suffer a trigger-happt panic attck.

It's truly a pity that it wasn't you there. I believe you would have done exactly as you described.

There is no immediacy in what WW posted. Just a tard, with what looks like a gun, holed up for 2 HOURS and waiting for a Verizon phone. You'd cap the guy, really?

When someone starts waving guns around with(or without, for that matter) police around, and has bad intent, or appears to...

Hell yeah. Assuming they can get a clean shot. Public freaking service. Seems like when I was a kid, my folks didn't even have to tell me "son, don't wave a gun around at cops." Just cleaning up the gene pool.

It's when there's innocent victims at risk that shooting becomes tricky business, and unless it's a trained marksman with an appropriate weapon, firing in the direction of a victim should be a last resort. Was a "last resort" neccessary with the McDonald kid? I wasn't there, but the adage "the proof is in the pudding" comes to mind. Your solution sounds a whole shitload better than the one that was executed, regardless. Or at least do their best to use one or two bullets. 14 freaking shots. That's gross negligence, and deplorable. When that guy made the decision to unload his clip, the kid never had a chance. Yet I'm guessing he kept his job.

[Luther]

Dins, multiple cops fired multiple rounds. If I remember right, 5 cops fired those rounds. If I remember right, I think one or two shots were fired before the kid was corralled at the top of the stairs.

One thing that I did really have a problem with was, and this is if I remember the incident correctly, is that the two rounds fired at first were through a window pane. Now we saw in that homicide back east somewhere where the military vet capped the chick singing on the stage through a window??....well, mucho difference with a high powered rifle.

However, I can't find a definitive link that breaks down the Grand Jury testimony on the Internet that shows who fired what and exactly when. I probably wouldn't raise holy hell if by firing through the window and the kid wasn't there, but I don't know the ballistics of bullets glancing off glass etc. After this incident, and in the years following I do remember training with the Glock 9 mm and the penetrating power of the rounds. We saw video's of rounds from the 9, the .38, the .357 and the .45 My thinking at the time, from that video was that the 9 penetrated better than the .45, but the .45 had the higher shock value and stopping power.

I used to be a 92-95 type of qualifier on the range and that wasn't in the great category. Would I fire rounds from either a revolver or a auto as I ascended stairs to a tard holding a gun on a kid? Tough fucking call. I'm pretty confident that I could do it and I'd only do it at last resort. And I would have to believe, Dins, that those cops felt the same way. They hit French 14/16, which is moot for the bottom line. They did not intend the hurt the kid. They were there to save the kid. I believe it in my heart. I knew those guys.

Guess we are still agreeing to disagree. You're a tough one to debate with, but I enjoyed the discussion, even though it brought up some very bad/sad thoughts from long ago. Not many people got involved in the discussion though, but that is kind of par for the course here.

WW, I did find a link to that incident you posted about. Was the guy's name Giancano or something like that? Back in 2005? I can't find the link but it wasn't really much good. No details from the GJ, no DA statement like, "Suspect pointed gun at, suspect threatened this or that, " nothing...just that he had a bb type guy (there was a picture, and it looked like a small auto, black). Same type of Internet search results as I had with the shooting in Portland. I don't know what it is, maybe the courts have it available, but not on the Internet.

Ah, WW. Oddly, it looks like you guys have quite a few police and also civilian shootings in fast food places. McDonalds, Burger King...I got multiple returns to the search of "Fast Food shootings in Kansas City" ...hahaha...

Rip City

p.s. It is 11:15...I'm oooout.

[PSUFAN]

Jilted ex goes and confronts his ex-strange with a toy gun and holds cops at bay for a few hours. Finally, they trick the distraught dumbfuck into agreeing to open the door to take a cell phone for "negotiating" purposes. As one cop is handing him the cell phone, another right behind blows him away.

One of the main things I hope to instill with my children is that the cops have the guns. Once you do things counter to their orders, and you play around with guns fake or otherwise, you've basically signed a death potentiality agreement. Shit happens to those who waylay others and hold the cops at bay with things they claim are weapons.

Police are usually held accountable for their actions. I hope that knowledge eases your pain when they spray your face with hot lead after you've waved your soap-carved Lugar around.

[Risa]

[Hostage situation in my 'hood at a McDonalds not that long ago. I started a thread slamming the KC cops. Jilted ex goes and confronts his ex-strange with a toy gun and holds cops at bay for a few hours. Finally, they trick the distraught dumbfuck into agreeing to open the door to take a cell phone for "negotiating" purposes. As one cop is handing him the cell phone, another right behind blows him away.

And that's why human shields exist.



:(

I wonder what Nishlord's take on that would be. The rest of the world already thinks Americans have a 'shoot first, questions later' mentality. Is the objective in hostage standoffs to free the hostages, to capture the hostage taker or kill the hostage taker?

Police are usually held accountable for their actions.

Are they?

Or is it like the Catholic Church?

[Dog]

Personally, I'll play the odds. If for every 95 criminals the Portland police kill, they take out 5 innocent Oregonians, I'm satisfied. Its a win-win situation.

[Jay in Phoenix]

Liars are always judged more harshly by history.

As pointed out before, this one statement speaks for itself. You're a known liar. Your credibility is crap.

And I'm willing to bet my bottom dollar that I spent a great deal more time conversing with and interacting with certain parts of the criminal element than you.

Really? Really Dins? That's a bold statement. What exactly is it you used to do? Who were these criminals, and what was your association with them? If there is any truth in what you say, then it would only be because Luther doesn't associate with criminal scum other than what he had to do professionally. However, considering his many years spent bleeding and sweating and busting his ass off in the field of law enforcement, I would venture to guess that his knowledge of criminals is vastly superior to anything you have been exposed to. Or exposed yourself to. Either way, you've put yourself into a foolish corner.

Did things get out of control on an occasion, and firearms became involved? No comment.

No comment, eh? Once again, you make an assertion of being involved in criminal activity, possibly with guns, yet you refuse to be specific. You just go to the chickenshit 'no comment' card. Not that I want you to indict yourself of a specific crime Dins, nor would I want or hope you actually had done anything prison-worthy. But if you're going to challenge a police officer on his experience, knowledge and integrity, then you better damn well come clean on your own clouded history at least a little bit. So you've seen a 'lot of shit from the dark side that few will ever see'. How melodra-fucking-matic.

Care to elaborate chum?

Or are we simply left at the crux of your entire existence---

Liars are always judged more harshly by history.

[quacker backer]

wow
this thread has turned ugly

back to Ikea

their ready to assemble furmiture is better than most of the ready to make stuff out there
it just isn't everybodys cup of joe

the hype is awful though

[Dinsdale]

this thread has turned ugly

It was until your avatar showed up.

Didn't you say at one time that you worked downtown, QB?

If so, tell the OL to fuck off and go to Main Street Music at 5 o'clock.

Someone thought it would be a good idea to close down Main at the Park Blocks during rush hour on Wednesdays to have a concert in the middle of the street. I tend to think it's a good idea, too.

I think it moves to the PCPA if it's raining(rainiest July in 60 years, or so they tell me).

Beer, titties, and free tunes. Hard to go wrong.

[Dinsdale]

A lot of folks would welcome some Father Sex for a mil and a half.

A mil andf a half? We'll take less.

Let the bidding war begin.

We're down for $9. For both.



Sin,

[War Wagon]

WW, I did find a link to that incident you posted about. Was the guy's name Giancano or something like that? Back in 2005? I can't find the link but it wasn't really much good. No details from the GJ, no DA statement like, "Suspect pointed gun at, suspect threatened this or that, " nothing...just that he had a bb type guy (there was a picture, and it looked like a small auto, black). Same type of Internet search results as I had with the shooting in Portland. I don't know what it is, maybe the courts have it available, but not on the Internet.

Yep, that's the one. He went to this McD's around lunchtime, his ex was a manager there. He waved around the BB gun and ordered everyone out except for his ex. He locked all the doors and hunkered down. What he hoped to accomplish, I have no idea. Maybe he just wanted punish her for fucking him over. I can't remember all the details, but apparently this gal was making his life a living hell over a messy divorce, child custody, alimony, etc... all that miserable bullshit that dumbfucks who can't keep their bitches in line have to deal with.

So anyways, I guess he was threatening her somewhat with the toy gun, and this standoff went on for about 5-6 hours, Luth, not 2. Seemed to me as if the cops just got tired of dealing with this douchebag and decided to end it, right then and there. I posted this sarcastically last night, but yeah, I think the cops just wanted to go the fuck home and do what it is that regular people with regular jobs do of an evening after their shift is over.

I have no doubt that if they'd actually given the guy the cell phone that it would have all been over in another hour or so after he vented his rage at society. Instead, they capped him, and I think that was totally uncalled for.

And of course, the police action was totally exonerated by the review board as a justifiable, though regretable, shooting. :roll: That board is kept pretty busy, as not many days go by that we're not hearing and reading about yet another police homi... err, discharge of firearms.

And in pretty much 99.9% of the incidents, they get rubber stamped as "justifiable".

I'm not sure what a cop would have to do to lose his job here. I'm thinking it'd have to be along the lines of going to City Hall, riding the elevator up to the 29th floor, and blowing away the Mayor and the entire City Council while they were in a meeting... all while Fox 4 News was broadcasting it live.

KC cops is some stone cold killa's.

[Luther]

Ouch, WW, sorry you feel that way too. I don't know what to say to you. I think you'll probably always feel this way and there isn't anything anybody could do to change your mind. I kind of had you pegged wrong over these years, I just would have suspected you to be a blue collar type with the "cops don't come to play if you arm yourself" type of guy. Even though not many of the board played in the Dins/Luth/WW/Mgo police thread, I did hear what was said.

Oh well. I've only run one nick in all these 10+ years posting, and if I have any regrets it would have been that I would have just made up some other type of job that I retired at. I could have passed as, oh, maybe a retired Motel owner or something. Maybe an executive chef but I think Mikey could have broke me down and exposed that lie. Maybe I could have borrowed a few jobs from Dins portfolio, I'm sure he wouldn't mind. You know, I haven't returned back to my precinct once since I've retired, and that has been over 4 years ago.

Who would have thought a furniture thread would have ended up like this? I fucking hate Ikea now. Mrs. Luth just came downstairs and informed me that a Vancouver, Washington (just across the Columbia River) cop got shot this morning.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/breakingnews ... _conf.html

I guess I'll have to answer for that one too. Or maybe I'll ignore it and go back to my Motel.

THE LUTH MOTEL

Rip City

[War Wagon]

Oh well. I've only run one nick in all these 10+ years posting, and if I have any regrets it would have been that I would have just made up some other type of job that I retired at.

Nah, don't regret a damn thing. You bring a unique perspective to this board, and your word is gold as far as I'm concerned. No wondering over here if you're full of shit, or not. It's not, btw.

Hey, though I hate what cops sometimes do, I certainly respect their role in society as being absolutely necessary... and stay as far the fuck away from them as possible while they're doing their fucked up jobs. Once they're off duty, I'm sure they're just regular Joe's... or Luther's.

Who would have thought a furniture thread would have ended up like this?

Threads get hi-jacked everyday Luth. Don't sweat it, but blame Dins at every opportunity.

[indyfrisco]

WW,

Seriously, why are you so bent out of shape about the McDonalds guy? He held someoe hostage for 5-6 hours as you say. As far as everyone at the scene knew he had a gun and had no good intentions. What, if anything, after this incident do you think he could possibly contribute to society?

He was wasting oxygen. You should thank the KC cops.

And anyone here who has a problem with the police can fucking eat shit. Unless you're willing to put on a badge, shut the fuck up. I'm damn good at what I do, but I make mistakes too. If I did the right thing 95 times out of 100, I'd be on cloud 9.

He without sin shall cast the first stone...

[Goober McTuber]

He without sin shall cast the first stone...

Take it to the Theology Forum, ya religious nut-job.


Whitey,

The religious nut-job is right. After 5 or 6 hours, the dude still holds a hostage at gunpoint. Why did he need a cell phone? Mickey D’s doesn’t have a phone? Cop had a clean shot, and he took out one of the bad guys. Give the dude a medal and move on.

[Risa]

WW,

Seriously, why are you so bent out of shape about the McDonalds guy?

there but for the grace of god, man. you can't shrug your shoulders just because you don't like the victim it happened to. police fuck ups affect everyone. you have to ask for accountability, across the board.... even when the folks most affected are people you relish that type of shit happening to.

once you let them get away with that type of shit, slippery slope. what's falling down that slope will come down on you and yours. A kinda big picture version is 'why we are in Iraq'.

[indyfrisco]

I forgive you Goober.

[Dinsdale]

Lots of thin, fit people in that crowd.

Or not.

[Goober McTuber]

Are those Portland people? Up here in God’s Country, we tend to take a little better care of ourselves.

Other than when we’re pounding down “God’s Country Boilermakers”.