Whitlock slams ND

[T REX]

http://msn.foxsports.com/cfb/story/7419706

Wow.......I think that ND planned on going after Meyer and Weis was the back-up. ND fans won't like that but giving him that extension was a huge mistake.

For the record, I never said Notre Dame was racist for firing Tyrone Willingham.

I said racism played a role in Notre Dame giving The Great Weis Hope a record contract extension after a 5-2 start three years after giving Tyrone Willingham a pat on the back after an 8-0 start. I also strongly insinuated that the lazy and biased media co-signed off on Notre Dame's stupidity because the media are lazy and biased.
It's all right here in the column I wrote after Notre Dame prematurely gave Mr. Charlie a 10-year extension three years ago.

At 1-8, the captain of arguably the worst offense in Division I football and the leader of the worst Notre Dame team in the school's storied history, there is now a consensus that Notre Dame administrators need their asses whooped for making such a collossal mistake.

Oh, you still have your Great Weis Hope apologists who believe 1-8 is all Tyrone's fault. You see, Tyrone didn't recruit enough four-star recruits. I mean, seriously, it's unfair to expect Mr. Charlie to kick a game-winning 41-yard field goal against Navy without a four-star long snapper, holder and kicker. Nope, it was the lack of four-star recruits that caused The Great Weis Hope to eschew basic common sense and go for it on fourth-and-long rather than kick.

Teflon Charlie better be glad he doesn't coach at Nebraska, because fans of that legendary program have no problem identifying bad coaching. When Mark Mangino's band of two-star Kansas recruits smacked Bill Callahan's four-star All-Americans with 76 points, Callahan had to answer immediate questions about his impending resignation.

But I'm rambling, taking too much time getting to my bottom-line point.

I want to discuss why The Great Weis Hope is bombing. It's a combination of factors, some of which Notre Dame should've recognized long before hiring him.

Notre Dame is not the place to learn how to be a college head coach. It didn't work for Gerry Faust or Bob Davie. It's not working for Mr. Charlie. As fun as it might sound, you don't want to lose your virginity to Jenna Jameson. You won't last long. She'll get bored and frustrated. And everyone who sees the tape will fall down laughing. Sounds like most Notre Dame games this year, doesn't it?

Coaches with extensive NFL backgrounds can be ill-prepared for the transition to college football. This can be especially true for coaches whose confidence level has moved into arrogance. Weis is one of a handful of college head coaches who never played college football. There's a confidence that is born from having athletic success. That confidence at an early age can help you manage your ego when success comes later in life.

Weis showed up at Notre Dame full of himself, convinced that his NFL, Bill Belichick-approved X-and-O schemes would overwhelm Notre Dame opponents. We, the media, signed off on this, failing to consider that the college game has far more to do with development than schemes.


In the NFL, Weis worked with finished products, and he had eight hours a day to mentally prepare them. You get half of that time in the college game, and the players, particularly at Notre Dame, have a pesky distraction called schoolwork.

It's a totally different coaching animal. Weis had success his first two years because Willingham left an experienced, talented offensive group behind. What you're looking at now is what Weis has developed the past two years. Not much.

He's acknowledged that he made a mistake by not having more full-contact practices. You have to teach kids to tackle. You have to teach them to be tough. You have to wear them out in practice and then ask them to think, make plays and be physical when they're exhausted. You do it in the spring. You do it in fall camp. And you do it to a lesser degree on Tuesdays and Wednesdays during the season. When you take over a program and you're trying to instill your philosophy, the same week you're preparing for Michigan, you have to prepare a 30-play Tuesday scrimmage for your freshmen and sophomores not on the two-deep.

In the NFL, you spend all of your energy thinking about Sunday. In the college game, you have to consistently think about next year.

In the NFL, you're working with the best, the brightest and a 53-man roster. You're always worried about injuries. You're worried about surviving a 16-game schedule against properly trained, highly skilled professionals. You concentrate on schemes and keeping everyone fresh. Development is not a major focus. And neither is projecting.

A great college coach can recognize the high-school linebacker who might be a nose tackle, defensive end or center in college. He can see the step-too-slow running back who would be a hard-hitting strong safety. An effective college coach knows what mental buttons to push on a pampered high school superstar to turn him into player who won't negatively impact team chemistry. A good college coach might look at a 6-foot-3, 205-pound, high-motor kid from a poor family and see a 250-pound pass rusher once he's been exposed to weight training, three square meals and a stable environment.

Am I stating unequivocally that Weis and Notre Dame won't rebound in 2008? No.

I'm stating that Charlie Weis is overpaid. I'm stating that Weis is not the second coming of Bear Bryant. I'm stating that Notre Dame had no business giving him a contract extension, and we all should've pointed it out then. I'm stating that if the man was going to run out on his alma mater and head to the NFL after one year, then it would've said a whole lot about his lack of ethics. I'm stating that high-ranked recruiting classes won't single-handedly fix Notre Dame.

The Great Weis Hope needs to fix himself first by toning down the arrogance and acknowledging he has much to learn about what it takes to win consistently in the college game.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Everybody's slamming ND, Mr. Observant.

[Sky]

http://msn.foxsports.com/cfb/story/7419706

Wow.......I think that ND planned on going after Meyer and Weis was the back-up. ND fans won't like that but giving him that extension was a huge mistake.

Typical trixie, mis in half-truths and speculating comments while simultaneously pointing out that the SEC is awesome.

[T REX]

http://msn.foxsports.com/cfb/story/7419706

Wow.......I think that ND planned on going after Meyer and Weis was the back-up. ND fans won't like that but giving him that extension was a huge mistake.

Typical trixie, mis in half-truths and speculating comments while simultaneously pointing out that the SEC is awesome.

Where.....quote it or stfu.....what's with you....don't like me calling out your overrated team? There is no mention of the SEC. Your just blind with hate and its affecting your posting.

So what? Deal with the ass kicking that's coming and move on. Anyone who doesn't think Meyer was their first choice is clueless. The dude can flat out coach.

[Killian]

Out side of the racisit angle, the overall race baiting and some half truths about Willingham, that article is pretty much on point.

There would have been no need to give Weis the extension had White and the ND lawyers structerd the contract correctly in the first place.

By the way Trixie, there are many other hair pulling articles about Weis out there right now. Take your pick.

Why do you continue to care so much about a team that is 1-8?

[Danimal]

The extension was a stupid, knee-jerk reaction to the talk that Weis may take a NFL-HC job. If White had a brain he'd have at-least gave himself some type of back-door so he wouldn't have to pay a ridiculous buyout should Charlie not work-out. When White did that he basically did what Pedey did when he canned a 10-3 staff and brought-in BC, he bet his job on his coach winning. I think White is canned either way so ND can get an AD in that won't be the coach's bitch.

[T REX]

Out side of the racisit angle, the overall race baiting and some half truths about Willingham, that article is pretty much on point.

There would have been no need to give Weis the extension had White and the ND lawyers structerd the contract correctly in the first place.

By the way Trixie, there are many other hair pulling articles about Weis out there right now. Take your pick.

Why do you continue to care so much about a team that is 1-8?

Whether you realize it or not UF-ND will be connected for some time just because of the coaching search that went on at the same time. Meyer was on ND's short list. The direction of each school based on the coaching choices will be dissected for years. Both programs are high profile and connected by Meyer's decision. I'm pretty sure you guys would have taken him had he chosen ND, right?

Killian, let's put it this way.....the college football world is much better off(and more fun) with ND in the top ten. Same with FSU/Miami/Nebraska. It just doesn't feel right otherwise.

[Killian]

I don't think there is a connection just because Meyer took the UF job. ND and Northwestern aren't linked because Barnett turned down the ND job to stay at Northwester. I see your point, but I don't know if I agree.

As far as would we have taken Meyer? Sure, because he was the only one on White's short list to replace Willingham. And had White been proactive and started vetting candidates before the firing instead of after, he would have either gotten Meyer or realized that Meyer was going to UF.

Meyer made the right choice for him and his family.

[SunCoastSooner]

Out side of the racisit angle, the overall race baiting and some half truths about Willingham, that article is pretty much on point.

There would have been no need to give Weis the extension had White and the ND lawyers structerd the contract correctly in the first place.

By the way Trixie, there are many other hair pulling articles about Weis out there right now. Take your pick.

Why do you continue to care so much about a team that is 1-8?

Whether you realize it or not UF-ND will be connected for some time just because of the coaching search that went on at the same time. Meyer was on ND's short list. The direction of each school based on the coaching choices will be dissected for years. Both programs are high profile and connected by Meyer's decision. I'm pretty sure you guys would have taken him had he chosen ND, right?

Killian, let's put it this way.....the college football world is much better off(and more fun) with ND in the top ten. Same with FSU/Miami/Nebraska. It just doesn't feel right otherwise.

Only in your myopic mind are they connectted... None of the rest of the world gives a rat's ass anymore.

[Goober McTuber]

Killian, let's put it this way.....the college football world is much better off(and more fun) with ND in the top ten. Same with FSU/Miami/Nebraska. It just doesn't feel right otherwise.

Feels fine to me.

[T REX]

Out side of the racisit angle, the overall race baiting and some half truths about Willingham, that article is pretty much on point.

There would have been no need to give Weis the extension had White and the ND lawyers structerd the contract correctly in the first place.

By the way Trixie, there are many other hair pulling articles about Weis out there right now. Take your pick.

Why do you continue to care so much about a team that is 1-8?

Whether you realize it or not UF-ND will be connected for some time just because of the coaching search that went on at the same time. Meyer was on ND's short list. The direction of each school based on the coaching choices will be dissected for years. Both programs are high profile and connected by Meyer's decision. I'm pretty sure you guys would have taken him had he chosen ND, right?

Killian, let's put it this way.....the college football world is much better off(and more fun) with ND in the top ten. Same with FSU/Miami/Nebraska. It just doesn't feel right otherwise.

Only in your myopic mind are they connectted... None of the rest of the world gives a rat's ass anymore.

Stoops was connected to UF for awhile....hey, it happens....it is what it is....not sure what the big deal is....

[RadioFan]

Killian, let's put it this way.....the college football world is much better off(and more fun) with ND in the top ten.

What, are you on NBC's payroll now?

Fuck ND and fuck you.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Out side of the racisit angle, the overall race baiting and some half truths about Willingham, that article is pretty much on point.

There would have been no need to give Weis the extension had White and the ND lawyers structerd the contract correctly in the first place.

By the way Trixie, there are many other hair pulling articles about Weis out there right now. Take your pick.

Why do you continue to care so much about a team that is 1-8?

^^^ What he said.

The extension was a stupid, knee-jerk reaction to the talk that Weis may take a NFL-HC job. If White had a brain he'd have at-least gave himself some type of back-door so he wouldn't have to pay a ridiculous buyout should Charlie not work-out. When White did that he basically did what Pedey did when he canned a 10-3 staff and brought-in BC, he bet his job on his coach winning. I think White is canned either way so ND can get an AD in that won't be the coach's bitch.

White's goose should have been cooked a long, long time ago. Even before he screwed up the coaching search, then overreacted and gave Weis a 5-year extension on the basis of half a season.

You could go back to White going into Chicken Little mode when the ACC decided to expand, and damn near delivering ND to the ACC lock stock and barrel. Only the NCAA, of all things, actually saved us from White's incompetence. When the NCAA determined that the ACC couldn't hold a conference championship game with only 11 members, that basically stuck a fork in the ND/ACC negotiations.

Then there was the BOHICA act White pulled at the start of the '04 season, when, for the sake of moving one game ahead of Michigan on the schedule, we wound up owing favors to SDSU and Nevada. On the bright side, at least we should start out the next two seasons with wins.

As for White being canned, I'd like to agree with you but I'm afraid I can't. I'm beginning to think that White must have incriminating photos of some high-level administration figures at ND or something. There's no other excuse for why he's still there. As athletic director at Notre Dame, White is a real-life, unfunny version of George Costanza as Assistant to the Traveling Secretary of the New York Yankees. No matter how badly he screws up, he can't possibly get fired.

[SunCoastSooner]

Whether you realize it or not UF-ND will be connected for some time just because of the coaching search that went on at the same time. Meyer was on ND's short list. The direction of each school based on the coaching choices will be dissected for years. Both programs are high profile and connected by Meyer's decision. I'm pretty sure you guys would have taken him had he chosen ND, right?

Killian, let's put it this way.....the college football world is much better off(and more fun) with ND in the top ten. Same with FSU/Miami/Nebraska. It just doesn't feel right otherwise.

Only in your myopic mind are they connectted... None of the rest of the world gives a rat's ass anymore.

Stoops was connected to UF for awhile....hey, it happens....it is what it is....not sure what the big deal is....

Yeah he told ya to eat shit I'm staying Norman... Twice!

Other than being a DC for 2 years there is no connection. It was a short stay, a bump in the road where he met Spurrier and moved the hell on just like The Ole Ball coach did. Hell Bob spent more time as an assistant at Kent State than he did at FU.

[Laxplayer]

Wow, rixie found an article slamming CW and ND...next thing he'll find an article stating that CW is over weight.
No doubt that ND is a mess right now, but how is it racism when they fired Ty? Didn't they hire him? Im sorry, how can you hire a minority then when he gets fired call it racism?
Does Weis need to do a better job of coaching? Hell yes? Has he taken any responsibility for this year? I don't know because I don't watch every press conference but if he hasn't, then he better. His kids are underperforming and since he's the head of the program the responsibility ultimately falls upon his shoulders. His arrogance is showing through and it's coming back to haunt him. Can he succeed? I think so but first he's got to put his pride aside and learn how to make some changes within himself and realize that he needs help.

[Bucmonkey]

Good stuff boys.

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

Killian, let's put it this way.....the college football world is much better off(and more fun) with ND in the top ten. Same with FSU/Miami/Nebraska. It just doesn't feel right otherwise.

Feels fine to me.

Agreed.

[Screw_Michigan]

Fuck ND and fuck you.

RRRRACK.

[Sky]

No doubt that ND is a mess right now, but how is it racism when they fired Ty? Didn't they hire him? Im sorry, how can you hire a minority then when he gets fired call it racism?.

I was rolling, almost fell out of my chair.

[T REX]

No doubt that ND is a mess right now, but how is it racism when they fired Ty? Didn't they hire him? Im sorry, how can you hire a minority then when he gets fired call it racism?.

I was rolling, almost fell out of my chair.

You both seem smarter than the commentary.....it was the short hook....Weis seems to be getting more time? Based on what? The worst season in ND's storied past? And he gets another chance?

Why?

[indyfrisco]

I've got to find a way to use that analogy.

It's easy. Let me show you how.

Kansas City is not the place to suck at being a NFL head coach. It didn't work for Dick or Marty. It's not working for Mr. Edwards. As fun as it might sound, you don't want to lose your virginity to Jenna Jameson. You won't last long. She'll get bored and frustrated. And everyone who sees the tape will fall down laughing. Sounds like most Chiefs games this year, doesn't it?

Sin,
KtrlC Paul 3,000 Lbs

P.S. Go Pats!

[Laxplayer]

You both seem smarter than the commentary.....it was the short hook....Weis seems to be getting more time? Based on what? The worst season in ND's storied past? And he gets another chance?
Why?

Yes it was and here's why...stay with me Rixie......Ty wasn't getting it done. Meyer was a hot commodoty so they went after him, when that fell through they went after O'Leary, then that fell through they went with Weis. Weis got another chance and a contract extension because things were promising his first two years. ND didn't want to lose him to an NFL team so they locked him up. Nobody could foresee the train wreck that is this year. They're stuck with that shitty contract and CW. Will it work out? Who knows? Happy now......

[Sky]

You both seem smarter than the commentary.....it was the short hook....Weis seems to be getting more time? Based on what? The worst season in ND's storied past? And he gets another chance?

Why?

Oh, believe me, I don't think he deserves another year. However, given ND's coach turnover rate post Holtz, I think they are saying to themselves, lets give this one an honest shot, see if he has it in him to turn this program around.

ND guys, correct me if I am wrong.

Nobody who ever hires a black person can ever be accused of racism?

Curious.

You make a good point, but its just the irony of picking a black head coach (which is much different than hiring a black burger flipper) and then firing him. On one hand, the media loves to make a big deal because ND "finally" hired a black coach and then when he gets fired, ND is racist. Thats all.

[Killian]

You both seem smarter than the commentary.....it was the short hook....Weis seems to be getting more time? Based on what? The worst season in ND's storied past? And he gets another chance?

Why?

You think ND made a mistake by not giving their former coach enough time by firing him after 3 years. So you want ND to repeat this mistake again, because of the former coach?

And why do you keep asking this question? It has been answered for you several times. Do you not like/agree with the answer?

[Killian]

Oh, believe me, I don't think he deserves another year. However, given ND's coach turnover rate post Holtz, I think they are saying to themselves, lets give this one an honest shot, see if he has it in him to turn this program around.

ND guys, correct me if I am wrong.

I believe both Davie and Willingham were both given an honest shot, and both failed. Davie was very up and down as a coach, but he was an above average recruiter. Had Davie done the smart thing and promoted Meyer to OC instead of hiring Kevin Rodgers, there is a good chance he would still be coaching ND, or he would have at least lasted a few more years.

The comparison between Ty and Weis will always be there, but I believe it's a very simple 3 step explanation.

1. Ty refused after both his second and third year to fire his most underperforming coordinator. Weis did fire his after year two.

2. There is no obvious candidate to replace Weis. During Ty's final year, Urban Meyer was taking Utah to an undefeated season after doing wonders with Bowling Green. He had a connection to ND and had expressed interest in coaching in South Bend. As far as I can tell, there is no such obvious hot candidate this year.

3. Ty's recruiting was getting worse and worse. The class he was recruiting during his final year was the worst of the bunch and lacking in any noteworthy skill position players. Weis on the other hand has had successively more impressive classes with the current class being a consensus #1 class thus far.

In Davie's last 3 years, he produced 1 BCS team and two teams with losing records. In Willingham's 3 years, he produced 1 team that made the Gator Bowl, a team with a losing record, and a .500 team. In Weis's first three years, he has produced 2 BCS teams and this current year. If he finishes the year at 4-8, that is a one game difference between both Davie and Willingham's worst years. And for all of you that will jump up and say that "Weis did it with Willingham's players", I will come right back and say that Willingham had a chance to do it with Davie's, and Davie left a hell of a lot more talent that Willingham did.

[T REX]

You both seem smarter than the commentary.....it was the short hook....Weis seems to be getting more time? Based on what? The worst season in ND's storied past? And he gets another chance?

Why?

You think ND made a mistake by not giving their former coach enough time by firing him after 3 years. So you want ND to repeat this mistake again, because of the former coach?

And why do you keep asking this question? It has been answered for you several times. Do you not like/agree with the answer?

Poor ND fan....things keep flowing together. He made a comment and I am returning the favor. It's a message board. Do you go after the same people concerning the SEc OOC topic??? That has been beaten to death resurrected and beaten to death repeatedly....Mr Moderator, did you make the same comments to them.....And why do they keep asking this question?

Ahhhh.....hypocrisy is home here....

[Killian]

Because SEC fan still hasn't completely addresed the point, nor have they given a good answer to the part they have tried to answer.

[T REX]

Because SEC fan still hasn't completely addresed the point, nor have they given a good answer to the part they have tried to answer.

Wow......

Do you not like/agree with the answer?

[Killian]

Good job, as usual.

[Dinsdale]

This seems as good a thread as any...

Not sure where in left field it came from, but our afternoon local sports hacks (who are actually quite good) suggested as a topic of conversation...


"What do you suppose Lou Holtz smells like?"

[Killian]

Metamucil, Pomade, Brute and Prune Juice

[RadioFan]

This seems as good a thread as any...

Not sure where in left field it came from, but our afternoon local sports hacks (who are actually quite good) suggested as a topic of conversation...


"What do you suppose Lou Holtz smells like?"

Could be mothballs, could be starch.

Jimmah provided my sig. Perhaps the local morons in the U&L should read this board.

[Screw_Michigan]

"What do you suppose Lou Holtz smells like?"

Scotch. Would only make sense.

[Killian]

I don't think anyone is claiming that Notre Dame is racist because they fired Willingham, and Whitlock certainly isn't. People might make the inference that Notre Dame is racist because Weis got a contract extension for basically the same performance as Willingham in their first years, and Weis hasn't been fired for basically the same performance that got Willingham fired after three years. In EEOC-speak, they call that "disparate treatment."

Yes and no to your first point. Whitlock isn,t saying that, but Saunders, Wilbon and even Willingham himself did.

To your second point, I disagree. Yes, White came in his pants because he fucked up the first contract wich led to the extension. But they haven't done anywhere near the same job. 2 BCS appearances and his recruiting are far above anything Ty did. This year is beyond awful, but there is still a chance he could end up only 1 game worse than Ty's worst year.

[M Club]

notre dame fans aren't allowed to hang their hats on a bcs bowl considering they're the only 1-8 team ever to lose to navy and still be mathematically eligible to play in the orange bowl.

[RadioFan]

Bottom line:

1. Not racism, maybe so.

2. ND and NBC fucked up.
Eat it, bitches, for many years to come. Yes, that means YOU, ND Fan, while you bask in that, "Hey, we don't need to join a conference, we are ND," horseshit. Go suck NBC's dick. And talk to their writers, while you're at it, about getting "Heroes" back on TV.

3. Can we ALL fucking move on now?

Oh wait, ND plays Air Force this week, and it's on national TV, therefore it's supposed to be meaningful.

Get a grip, you fucking idiots.

The MNC is about to commence.

[GreginPG]

Nowhere near the same job?

Willingham, years one through three: 21-15, two bowl losses.

Charlie Weis, years one through 2.75: 20-14, two bowl losses.

Now, of course, Weis' bowls were much more prestigious, but how in the name of Pete was Notre Dame even AT those bowls?

Beyond that, I'm pretty sure that Willingham never fucking lost to NAVY.

Personally, I don't think that the different treatment afforded Willingham and Weis is indicative of racism-I think it has more to do with Weis not being QUITE the colossal fuckup as a coach that Willingham has shown himself to be. But the results on the field are pretty similar.

Charlie had two weeks to prepare for em too.

[Terry in Crapchester]

notre dame fans aren't allowed to hang their hats on a bcs bowl considering they're the only 1-8 team ever to lose to navy and still be mathematically eligible to play in the orange bowl.

Not sure if this is a slam on ND per se or the BCS rules, but assuming the former . . .

While there are valid criticisms to be made against ND's football program, essentially calling them a bowl game whore is not one of them.

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/di ... istory.php

Take a look at that. And not just the more recent games either.

You might notice something rather unusual toward the top of the page. Specifically, a gap in bowl appearances between 1925 and 1970. None, in fact, during that period of time. Now, someone who was completely ill-informed might jump to the conclusion that ND probably had a pretty terrible program for most if not all of that time period. However, you can see that 8 of ND's 12 national championships occurred during that time period. http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/di ... nships.php ND refused to play in bowls during that time period.

Need more proof? Here's a list, in order of frequency, of the college football teams with the most bowl appearances. http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/bo ... _bowls.php Some of the names ahead of ND on that list:

Arkansas
Georgia Tech
Mississippi
Texas Tech

Tell me, do you think those names are ahead of ND because they've traditionally had more successful programs than ND has had?

Truth be told, for many ND fans, a season like this one is better than a 6-6 or 7-5 season in one respect: we don't have to play in a bowl game. There is a sizeable contingent of ND's fanbase, and not just the real, real, REAL oldtimers, who would, if they could, gladly go back to the days when college football had only five bowl games and ND did not play in any of them by choice. Even those members of the fanbase who advocate accepting a bowl bid in a 6-6 or 7-5 season, like me, do so mainly from a point of view that college football has changed, and that the media will punish ND for turning down a bowl bid (as they did in '96) if one is offered, rather than because we want them in a bowl game at 6-6 or 7-5.

[SoCalTrjn]

as fucked up as Notre Shames season has been, those alter boy molesting cock suckers are still going to get a check from the BCS for 1.3 million dollars

[Terry in Crapchester]

That's been mentioned on the boards before, Chip. With the latest round of BCS negotiations, the BCS drastically cut ND's check if they qualify for a BCS bid (although it's still substantially more than they would get as a conference member). The quid pro quo is that they get $1.3 million if they don't qualify for the BCS.