Future of the Big East?

[Terry in Crapchester]

I originally thought about posting this in the CFB forum near the end of the CFB preseason. But it more correctly belongs in this forum. So I thought I might as well get the ball rolling now, given that we're about 2 weeks away from Midnight Madness.

It seems that the most common criticism leveled against the Big East in here is that the conference is too big. And a very strong argument can be made that it is. With a 16-team conference, the opportunity to play home-and-homes with conference members is extremely limited. On the plus side, going to an 18-game conference schedule this year is a plus, in that at least each team will face every other conference member going forward. Still, I'm hearing that the conference won't survive in its present state in the long term.

If/when the Big East does split, it won't be on geographic lines. Let's face it, football is driving the bus to a major extent here, and for that reason it's a non-negotiable point that the eight members of the football conference will stick together in the aftermath of any split. The split I first heard mentioned was along football/non-football lines, which would make the split like this:

Football: Cincinnati, UConn, Louisville, Pitt, Rutgers, USF, Syracuse, WVU
Non-football: DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, ND, Providence, St. John's, Seton Hall, Villanova

Now, however, I'm hearing that Georgetown, among others, wants no part of such a split. And indeed, such a split would end some significant basketball rivalries. So I'm hearing now that the football schools are looking at maintaining the hybrid conference, but with a smaller (no more than 12) number of teams.

As stated earlier, the eight football members stay together. So who goes with them among the non-football members?

In MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan's thread in the CFB forum, I attempted to rank the non-football schools in the Big East by importance to the conference (I also ranked the football schools, but concluded that those rankings were irrelevant, since none was in danger of being replaced or removed from the conference). The rankings I came up with for the non-football schools were:

1. Notre Dame
2. Georgetown
3. St. John's
4. Villanova
5. DePaul
6. Marquette
7. Seton Hall
8. Providence

I'll stand with those. Even as a football independent, ND has significant long-term value to the Big East in football, given their agreement to schedule three games per season against Big East schools and their willingness to be part of the Big East's non-BCS bowl package (which helped get the Big East a better deal than they would've gotten otherwise).

The problem is that this doesn't tell the entire story. The Big East is looking at adding a ninth football member. Of course, if ND agreed to do that, that would end any debate. But ND wants to remain independent. In that case, the Big East could look at Georgetown/St. John's/Villanova as a package deal, and knock ND out of the new conference. ND has been advocating for Navy to join the Big East as a football-only member. The problem with that idea is that, while it benefits ND, it probably doesn't benefit Navy. Navy has been to a bowl game in each of the last four seasons, and has had some success in negotiating its own bowl package. But they've done it, in part, on the back of a very weak football schedule. Joining the Big East would mean a tougher schedule than Navy currently plays in football, and in all likelihood means no more bowl games, at least for the foreseeable future.

So it seems to me that the long-term solution will be a hybrid conference with 12 members for basketball. But exact membership beyond the eight that play football in the Big East right now is still up for grabs.

Of course, that means that staying together in the current format for five years is unimportant (not the case if there's a football/non-football split). And it also raises the question of what happens to the remaining teams. Joining the Atlantic 10, a/k/a/ the Baby Big East, is a possibility, but that conference is already at 14 members. So if that's what teams are looking at, imho the A10 takes, at most, Seton Hall and Providence, with DePaul and Marquette looking at either the Horizon League or MVC. Another possibility is that they form their own conference, in which case they would need to poach at least six teams from another conference (A10 is the most likely candidate) to get an automatic NCAA tournament bid in the near future. In that regard, I think they could convince Dayton, Saint Louis and Xavier to go along with this, and if they got St. Joe's as well, that would mean they would need only two more teams. George Washington, Temple, UMass or Rhode Island would be the most desirable, but if they want an all-Catholic Conference, they would most likely look at either Fordham, St. Bonaventure, LaSalle or Duquesne.

Thoughts?

[Degenerate]

With a 16-team conference, the opportunity to play home-and-homes with conference members is extremely limited.

Uh, the opportunity isn't "extremely limited," it just flat doesn't exist. Keeping conference records for teams who play such wildly unbalanced schedules is precisely the reason the league is a joke and needs to be blown up. I just hope they keep 'Nova and Syracuse with Georgetown because i like to see those teams make visits to DC.

[Shine]

The problem with setting up a proper Big East hoops conference is the reality that football is the ATM machine framing the discussion. With football out of the mix you could write off the likes of Cincinnati, USF and ND. Clearly that won't happen though. So factoring in the realities at play I think two things are somewhat clear. One is that the 8 football schools MUST be in the mix for the hoops conference. Two is that the 16 teams is WAY too fucking big and needs to be trimmed by at least 2 teams.

That said, you've got your starting base of 8 to work with based on the football conference. I say the one absolute must on the non-FB list is Georgetown, they scream Big East basketball. I'd say the two easiest cuts on the non-FB list are DePaul and Marquette. Both those schools make no geographic sense along with being new enough to the conference to not have built up any real connections to the conference. As somewhat bloated the conference might still seem I think you have to leave it at that and roll forward with 14 teams. Not ideal but still better than the 16 team mess of before.

Not sure what the best route would be for DePaul and Marquette from there. Forming a new conference would certainly be a possibility but the question is, would the NCAA be in favor of that and adding another automatic bid into the mix??

[Terry in Crapchester]

With a 16-team conference, the opportunity to play home-and-homes with conference members is extremely limited.

Uh, the opportunity isn't "extremely limited," it just flat doesn't exist.

They actually do get three conference home-and-homes per year. That's the reason why I called it "extremely limited."

The problem is that while there's plenty of potential to develop rivalries among the teams that are in the conference, the opportunities to schedule the home-and-homes necessary to develop such rivalries are few and far between given the size of the conference.

Keeping conference records for teams who play such wildly unbalanced schedules is precisely the reason the league is a joke and needs to be blown up.

In fairness, the Big East went to an 18-game conference schedule beginning this season, which means that every team will play every other team at least once (three home-and-homes per team). That helps balance the schedules somewhat, but the conference is still too big to be feasible in the long term.

Shine,

I'll have a response to your post later in the day, but I have to run right now.

[MuchoBulls]

Any split isn't going to occur under the new television deal. I know some coaches aren't happy with the 18 game conference schedule, but the revenue coming into the league right now is unprecedented.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Shine,

I agree with much of what you said. I think there are two obvious starting points: first, that the eight schools that play in the football conference have to stay together; and second, that 16 members in basketball is too many to sustain the conference long-term. I also agree with your implicit conclusion that the Big East probably will maintain some type of hybrid format, in that a complete split along football/non-football lines would destroy too much of the basketball tradition in the conference, not to mention your allusion to the fact that such a split would require the NCAA's blessing in that it would result in alteration of the NCAA tournament.

With those factors in mind, I don't see the Big East dropping below 12 teams in the hybrid format. Anything less than that takes away too much flexibility as to membership.

Now, as to who stays and who goes, I'm with you to a point. I agree that Georgetown has to stay due to tradition. And I would throw Villanova and St. John's into that mix as well, not to mention that each of those schools brings a major east coast metro area into the mix. I also agree with you that ND would have a meh argument at best as to staying without football in the mix. But I think that with the obvious football considerations, ND becomes a no-brainer even as a football independent provided they honor the commitments they've made to the football conference -- 3 games per year vs. Big East opponents plus remaining part of the Big East bowl package if not selected for the BCS.

The problem is that it's no secret that the Big East wants to add a ninth football member. If the hybrid basketball conference contains only 12 members, there's a numbers crunch such that the 9th football member would have to be a football-only member, unless ND joins for football, given that anyone they get won't bring anyone remotely approaching ND's profile. So who would join?

Navy? Nah, I don't think so. Good for the Big East and ND, but not so much for Navy.

Temple? They already had this position for 14 years, and were kicked out of the Big East because the football program was substandard. I don't see the Big East taking them back unless the Big East's back is up against a wall from a numbers standpoint.

UCF? Maybe they'd be willing to take a share of the BCS revenue in exchange for taking their basketball program back to the Atlantic Sun and playing big fish-in-a-small pond in basketball.

ECU? Marshall? Either one probably would have a better basketball option than would UCF (either the A10 or CAA), but I don't think either program is as desirable to the Big East as is UCF.

Memphis? If ever there were a program that could get C-USA's approval to stay in the conference for all sports but football and play football in the Big East, Memphis is it. But assuming there are no NCAA sanctions or pending sanctions, I think the Big East would be willing to add on Memphis in all sports.

So if the Big East goes beyond 12, I think the 13th member is a ninth member of the football conference, either Memphis or UCF. If they decide to go with 14 for an even number of teams, one of the current members would be the 14th team, although I'm not sure which one.

You're correct that DePaul and Marquette are the newest members of the conference and don't have much tradition established there. And right now, I think there's a perception that DePaul and Marquette are a "package deal" as far as membership goes -- either both will stay or both will leave. But if the Big East doesn't have that perception in place, DePaul might stay. I don't think that either DePaul or Marquette is that much of a geographic oddity given the presence in the conference of Cincinnati, Louisville and ND. And DePaul brings the Chicago media market to the table, although ND also commands some attention from that market. So DePaul could be the last to stay, otherwise I think it would be Seton Hall (assuming the Big East goes up to 14 members.) I don't see Providence having much chance of remaining in the conference long-term.

Of course, the question remains where the schools left out would wind up. Like I said, the A10 is a possibility, but probably wouldn't take more than two schools. It's also possible that DePaul or Marquette or both could wind up in either the Horizon League or MVC. Or the remaining schools could form a new conference with the blessing of the NCAA and, most likely, several existing members of the Atlantic 10 breaking off.

Mucho,

What exactly are the details of the current TV deal? I really haven't noticed much difference in terms of games being on TV. In any event, a split is probably a few years down the road. If the conference split along football/non-football lines, it would have to wait at least two more years for any split to take effect, anyway.

[MuchoBulls]

Mucho,

What exactly are the details of the current TV deal? I really haven't noticed much difference in terms of games being on TV. In any event, a split is probably a few years down the road. If the conference split along football/non-football lines, it would have to wait at least two more years for any split to take effect, anyway.

More tv exposure for every program in the league. Each basketball playing member will have each of its Big East games broadcast on one of the ESPN family of networks. I believe the $$$ figure will net each league member in the 7 figures each season.

The football side of the deal is improved as well. I believe it begins next season and it will give Big East teams more national time on ESPN/ABC.

There may very well be a split down the road, but right now it would not make any financial sense for any Big East program to break away.

[SunCoastSooner]

Where is the "who cares" option?

[Terry in Crapchester]

There may very well be a split down the road, but right now it would not make any financial sense for any Big East program to break away.

Maybe you misunderstood my premise, or I wasn't entirely clear. I don't see any Big East program breaking away from the conference, at least not anytime in the near future (ND would be the only possibility, if they want to join another football conference, and I don't see that happening anytime soon). Rather, I see the 16-team model as not viable in the long term, and the Big East cutting loose 3 or 4 teams.

And in any event, that's probably a few years away.

[smackaholic]

ND football needs to wake the fukk up and join the league while they still can. You aren't jesus' team anymore domers. Infact, you pretty much suck ass these days and a number of Big E teams could run your sorry asses right off the field right about now.

Don't worry, SC will still be happy to hand you your annual beatin' and I'm sure you'll still carry on your nostalgic Navy thing where both schools get together and make believe it's still the 30s and the whole country is actually gives a fukk.

Join the Big East now while you still have a past to gravytrain off of. You still have enough leftover credibility that the Big East would benefit and bring it a step closer to being a real football conference. Something that I thought would never happen after BU and VT jumped ship.

The Big East should send them this message. Maybe even tell them that if they don't, they can take their bball team and shove it up their arse.

[MuchoBulls]

Conference Tournament will feature all teams beginning next season

November 7, 2007

For Immediate Release

Contact: John Paquette, Rachel Margolis



BIG EAST Will Increase Basketball Championship Fields
To Include All 16 Members For 2009



Providence, R.I. – The Presidents of the BIG EAST Conference voted to include all 16 member institutions in the men’s and women’s basketball championship tournaments beginning in 2009. The Presidents took this action at their annual meeting, which was held Nov. 6 in Philadelphia, Pa.



“Our Presidents performed a very thorough review of the tournament format,” said Commissioner Michael Tranghese. “After extensive deliberation, it was decided that inviting all teams to participate would provide a special opportunity to every men’s and women’s basketball student-athlete.”



Currently, the top 12 teams in the final regular-season standings advance to participate in the men’s and women’s championships. The men’s championship is held in New York City at Madison Square Garden. The women’s championship is held in Hartford, Conn., at the Hartford Civic Center.



The new format will have the teams seeded 9 through 16 meet on the first day of competition. The matchups will be No. 9 vs. No. 16, No. 10 vs. No. 15, No. 11 vs. No. 14 and No. 12 vs. No. 13.



The winners of those four games will meet seeds 5 through 8 on the second day of play. The 9/16 winner will advance to play the No. 8 seed. The 10/15 winner will play the No. 7 seed. The 11/14 winner will meet the No. 6 seed. The 12/13 winner will play the No. 5 seed.



Those four winners will advance to play the top four seeds in the quarterfinal round. Thus, the top four seeded teams still will not play until the quarterfinals, which occurs in the current 12-team format.



-BIG EAST-

[Terry in Crapchester]

Mucho, glad to hear that.

As for this . . .

ND football needs to wake the fukk up and join the league while they still can. You aren't jesus' team anymore domers. Infact, you pretty much suck ass these days and a number of Big E teams could run your sorry asses right off the field right about now.

Don't worry, SC will still be happy to hand you your annual beatin' and I'm sure you'll still carry on your nostalgic Navy thing where both schools get together and make believe it's still the 30s and the whole country is actually gives a fukk.

Join the Big East now while you still have a past to gravytrain off of. You still have enough leftover credibility that the Big East would benefit and bring it a step closer to being a real football conference. Something that I thought would never happen after BU and VT jumped ship.

The Big East should send them this message. Maybe even tell them that if they don't, they can take their bball team and shove it up their arse.

Coupla points here.

First, the current season is not (at least I hope it isn't) a fair indicator of the direction in which ND's program is moving. More likely it's a temporary bump in the road due to a senior class which is relatively thin. ND has landed the #8 and #8 recruiting classes the last two years, and is on pace for the #1 class this year. That will be, or at least should be, enough talent in the fold to improve substantially. A more realistic concern is the one Killian voiced: that we are in the process of setting a pattern consisting of two very good but not quite national championship years, followed by one disastrous year, followed by one meh year, rinse and repeat.

Will ND join the Big East for football? I'd say the short answer to that is never say never, but . . . ND treasures its independence as an integral part of its tradition and history, and won't part with it easily. And as a matter of simple mathematics, joining a conference, any conference, would mean that ND would have to sacrifice some of its traditional rivalries. Even the ones that are relatively low on the totem pole bring something to the table for ND. For example, Stanford, in conjunction with USC, means an annual west coast road trip for ND, important because California is recruit-rich and also because there are a fair number of both alumni and subway alumni on the west coast.

I'll grant that the reasons for failing to join the Big East in '03, i.e., concerns about the conference's long-term football viability, are not an issue today. But I daresay that anyone suggesting that ND needs to be a full member of the Big East are missing the point. If you were to go into Anytown USA and ask 1,000 people on the streets at random to name a college football team, ND might just be the most popular response. I'm almost certain that ND would make the Top 10 in such a survey, and that ND would finish ahead of any of the current members of the Big East. They don't need the Big East to improve their name recognition (in fact, the opposite is true), and no knock against the Big East, but the conference doesn't afford tougher competition than a schedule ranked #2 in the country.

Notre Dame has agreed to be part of the Big East bowl package in years where ND is bowl-eligible but not selected for the BCS, as well as to play three games a year against Big East opponents going forward beginning in the relatively near future. The benefits that will provide for the Big East (let's not forget about national TV exposure) are enough to justify ND remaining in the Big East in other sports.

Having said all of that, if ND is ever forced to join a conference, the Big East would make more sense as a destination than the Big Ten for any number of reasons.

[Screw_Michigan]

Will ND join the Big East for football? I'd say the short answer to that is never say never, but . . . ND treasures its independence as an integral part of its tradition and history NATIONAL TV DEAL, and won't part with it easily. And as a matter of simple mathematics, joining a conference, any conference, would mean that ND would have to sacrifice some of its traditional rivalriesBANK ROLL. Even the ones that are relatively low on the totem pole bring something to the table for ND. For example, Stanford, in conjunction with USC, means an annual west coast road trip for ND, important because California is recruit-rich and also because there are a fair number of both alumni and subway alumni on the west coast. TRUE

FTFY. the day nd joins a league is the day they either can't secure a national tv deal or when joining a conference makes more financial sense. all the sentimental shit with the service academies and all, that's nice, but when it comes to dollars, they'll just be another in the long line to say "sorry, this is the 21st century" to tradition.

[MuchoBulls]

Mucho, glad to hear that.

This was the only way inviting all the teams would work because the top 4 seeds should get a bye and not play until the quarterfinals.

I'm hoping we'll get there this year, but that might be a stretch. Outside of Gransberry our starters are young and inexperienced, but Coach Heath will utilize them the best way possible. I was very encouraged to see us running the floor on both ends, which was the opposite of Coach McCullum's style.

[Dinsdale]

I MUST RACK! TiC.

I've never seen him troll like this before.


Cause if he's seriously trying to imply that ND is the "most important team" to the BE, he's either trolling or quite drunk.

Remind me again how many Tournies ND has won? It's still at 0, right?

Georgetown -- on the board.

Villanova -- on the board.

Marquette -- on the board.

Seton Hall -- close, but no cigar.

St. John's -- close, but no cigar.

Depaul -- close, but no cigar.

Notre Dame -- they play hoops? Who knew?


Yeah, buddy -- ND is a more significant hoops school than Georgetown, Villanova, Depaul, Seton Hall, and Marquette.


Try selling Arabic language encyclopedias door-to-door... probably an easier sell.

[indyfrisco]

Gotta agree with Dins on that one. IF, big IF there too, ND were to share some of that Bowl money, the BE would look kindly upon them as the most important non-FB school. They, however, do not and are not important in the least to the BE. The BE has them tag along just so they can have the BB as goodwill should ND ever decide to join a conference.

[Terry in Crapchester]

I MUST RACK! TiC.

I've never seen him troll like this before.


Cause if he's seriously trying to imply that ND is the "most important team" to the BE, he's either trolling or quite drunk.

Remind me again how many Tournies ND has won? It's still at 0, right?

Georgetown -- on the board.

Villanova -- on the board.

Marquette -- on the board.

Seton Hall -- close, but no cigar.

St. John's -- close, but no cigar.

Depaul -- close, but no cigar.

Notre Dame -- they play hoops? Who knew?


Yeah, buddy -- ND is a more significant hoops school than Georgetown, Villanova, Depaul, Seton Hall, and Marquette.


Try selling Arabic language encyclopedias door-to-door... probably an easier sell.

ND's gotten as close as DePaul, Providence or St. John's. And only one game removed from Seton Hall (who had the benefit of catching Duke in the Final Four before Duke stopped choking, not that ND could cash that in.)

Quick question: who did ND beat to get to the Final Four in '78? That's right, DePaul.

ND was the first school ever to be ranked #1 in the country in both football and basketball in the same academic year. ND is in the Top 10 all-time in both wins and NCAA tournament appearances in basketball (actually a five-way tie for ninth place in the latter category). Tell me you knew.

But that's beside the point. The question is athletics, not just hoops, and from that standpoint, ND is more important than anyone save possibly Georgetown, Villanova and St. John's. Geography is also an issue as well, although not as big a one as Shine makes it out to be. And in that regard, ND has a fanbase which spans both the east coast and the midwest. DePaul and Marquette can't make that claim.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Will ND join the Big East for football? I'd say the short answer to that is never say never, but . . . ND treasures its independence as an integral part of its tradition and history NATIONAL TV DEAL, and won't part with it easily.

FTFY.

The Big East (as opposed to the Big Ten) wouldn't require ND to part with its national TV deal as a condition of joining the conference for football. Tell me you knew.