smackaholic's cheap-ass countertop & Dins v trev cage ma

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:20 am

well, not as good a day as it should have been for fat burning. didn't drag a single stick outta the backyard. instead, i have dove into a different project. ripping the eisenhower era laminate off the kitchen counter for some new 1 ft square tiles. Scraping the old stick tar shit off burns a bit of energy, but, not enough to make up for the damn OL's sabotage of my diet. She brought home a half gallon of egg nogg. curse that damn shit. ever seen the simpson's episode with homer and nog? that's pretty much me. that shit is diet kryptonite for me. can't wait till the fukking holidays are past and they get that shit off the shelves.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:14 am

smackaholic wrote:ripping the eisenhower era laminate off the kitchen counter for some new 1 ft square tiles.

Uhm...

You're allowed to lay the backer over the old shit.

Not nearly as good excercise, though.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:19 pm

Wonder how much time must pass before 60 Minutes does a piece about the disgusting levels of bacteria in organic foods. With our modern huge-scale agriculture, there's a reason they use those chemicals.

Simple freaking free market logic... do you think those chemicals, pesticides, and other additives are cheaper than poo? So, since it costs them a bunch of extra money to buy the chemicals, does it follow suit that some big bad agriculture business really has some dark plot to poison all of their consumer base?

Many years ago, I started buying into that "organic must be better." Then I did a little homework. While neither option is fully palatable, if you're not growing your own food, whatever you bite into is a mystery.But don't think there isn't unsavory shit in organic foods, either.

BTW - I haven't seen any milk for sale that isn't advertised as "hormone free" or whatever the abbreviation is for the growth hormone they use in quite a while. Thought I'd heard something about the state banning it (which I oppose... fuck Big Government), but one of the benefits of living in a "hippy state" is that once a product is percieved as "non-hippy-friendly," it quickly disappears.... funny how that free market thing works itself out.

Nother thing... one of my bestest oldest buddies is a firefighter/EMT/freak for all things medical related(including his masters-in-nursing-toting wife). Few years back, he had to take a physical fitness test, which he felt thoroughly unprepared for, due in no small part to a blooming beer-gut. One of his coworkers gave him a book from some quack-sounding doctor, that claimed the human body can process huge amounts of fats, it just required massive amounts of water to do so. Sounded easy enough to my bud, who started throwing down a couple of gallons a day or more. And I'll be damned -- dude did absolutely nothing else different, and dropped a bunch of lard withing 2-3 weeks, which is what his coworker claimed to have done. The routine was pretty much what Moby described. I might not have bought that BS, except I saw it in action.

And laboroholic -- I just couldn't see myself spending more than about 5 minutes scraping off a 50 year old piece of plywood to save myself $10 in materials... call me crazy like that. Piece of plywood... piece of Wonderboard(according to my buddies who've been in the ceramic/stone industry for decades, Hardibacker is crap)... start laying tile(although I would hape that if you're going to all that trouble, you're doing granite, which isn't "tile"). But to each their own.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:44 pm

dins, as i got into it, i was kinda thinking along the same lines and may still completely rip the old shit up. but, most of the plywood is in pretty good shape and ripping off the laminate wasn't too hard.

as for going with granite, maybe someday, after a complete kitchen redo which may be in the cards a few years down the road. But, my cheap ass probably won't go with granite. I have investigated DIY concrete countertops and I may go that route.

Till then, I'm gonna go quick, easy and cheap. About 80 bucks for tile/oak trim.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:55 pm

smackaholic wrote: Till then, I'm gonna go quick, easy and cheap. About 80 bucks for tile/oak trim.

To each their own.

When I'm involved in such projects, it's with the purpose of making money. And usually if I'm involved in such projects, it's to increase the value of the house.

In such cases, the only acceptable moves are upwards moves. Lateral moves = a complete freaking waste of time and money. And a move from laminate to cheapass ceramic is mostly lateral.

I'd love to stick around and chat more about it, but I've got to go and tie up a couple of loose ends on a project I'm doing to increase the sale price of a home.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:23 am

Dins, I plan on being in this place atleast another ten years. what i do to it now is not about what I think will make it more valuable ten years from now. For all I know, granite will be yet another passing fad in whats cool in a kitchen. It's more about making it comfy for me and the family. Fukk what some real estate agent thinks will raise the value down the road.

BTW, you'll be happy to know that I did come to my senses and ripped that old shit out that I spent a few hours scraping. Fukk, is 3/4 plywood expensive these days. 32 fukking bones for a single sheet of cdx ripped in two. You will also be pleased to know that I square headed screwed that mofo down good.

Goober McTuber · Post by **Goober McTuber** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:08 pm

I hope you didn’t forget your fucking permit.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:45 am

permit? to tile a countertop? pfffttt. sorry, I forgot.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:23 pm

smackaholic wrote:BTW, you'll be happy to know that I did come to my senses and ripped that old shit out that I spent a few hours scraping.

Gee, didn't see that coming.

3/4? How thick was the old countertop? That seems like an awfully thick counter, by the time you get a sheet of 3/4 and a layer of Wonderboard down. Bet it's strong, though.

And no, pulling permit for a freaking countertop, regardless whether it's DIY or professional, would be silly. No need. Now, if you start finishing unfinished basements without, you're an idiot... big difference between the two.

Goober McTuber · Post by **Goober McTuber** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:51 pm

BTW, Dins, my former house with unpermitted basement work that I sold for a $115,000 profit just resold after 5 years. Dude picked up another $70,000 profit for himself. We’re pretty handy out here in flyover country.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:59 pm

'Round these parts, we...hypothetically anyway, have these things called "earthquakes."

You have to find a pretty big sucker or a Midwesterner to buy an unpermitted, uninspected psuedo-finished basement (which doesn't count as living space anyway).

On the other side of the coin, no one could give a fuck about cheesey ceramic counters, as long as the tiles aren't coming loose or cracking(which smacko might be learning a valuable lesson about the hard way, if he's going to go over 3/4 without cement board in a moist application).

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:23 pm

I've fuckin' had it with ceramic tile countertops myself. They are pretty much the norm around here except for newer upgraded tract and custom homes, and all my homes have had them.

They look nice when new and clean, but difficult to keep the grout really clean and you have to start thinking about regrouting after a few years.

Hopefully we will be ripping ours out someday soon and putting in something flat, smooth and resilient. Could be about the same time we rip out the gross looking carpet in the family room and put down a bamboo floor.

(Dins weighing in on how shitty bamboo is for flooring in 3...2...1....)

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:33 am

I do plan on putting down some wonderboard or whateverthe fukk they call the stuff. the old counter looked like 5/8, I figured wtf, don't cost much to make it a bit stouter. and stouter is gooder when it comes to tile. that shit don't much care for flexin'.

one other thing i am considering. i really like the idea of an undermount sink as it makes cleaning up alot easier, especially that spot between the sink and backsplash. trouble is, i got a perfectly good top mount sink and i am cheap as fukk. but, i gots an idear. i bounce it off you fukking experts just for your opinion/ridicule/abuse.

i got the sink mounted on the 3/4 ply. I am thinking of laying somemore 3/8 ply i got kicking around, ontop of the 3/4, but around the sink. then a layer of wonderboard on it. this will make the surface just about flush with the top of the sink. then i lay the tile so that it rides over the top of the sink. i then caulk the tile/sink mating surface. my biggest concern is the sink moving around a bit. i could mount the tile so that there was a gap to allow for this, but, that would make the tile more prone to cracking if something heavy is placed on the tile where it overhangs the sink.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:22 am

I'm a big fan of stuff that can be replaced. Or removed. Or whatever.

Sounds a little too permanent for my taste.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:21 am

yeah, it does mean ripping up a few tile to replace the sink, but, tile's cheap.

worst case is, I rip it all out and I'm out some time and 100 bucks. bfd. atleast i'll then join the large number of folks that say "tile counter top? whataya you on, crack?"

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:42 pm

So, an extra $100 is "bfd," but using stone instead of ceramic is some major huge dealio?

Good luck with those counters... sounds like you'll need it.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:47 pm

stone counters are way past 100 bucks last I checked. Infact, I think you measure the costs in thousands.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:53 pm

Had some done not too long ago... the prep was already done... miles of counters, about 75 square feet, something like that...

I think it was $2200, with materials and a really super-booyah backsplash, and a generally top of the line job.

But then again... I know people. Actually, a bunch of the guys I grew up with have spent their entire lives in their family businesses -- tile and stone.

But there's some fairly inexpensive granite out there. The only tricky part is bullnosing it, which you can take to a stone shop to have done, but they'll charge you pretty good. Or, get a hand grinder and fuck up a couple of pieces learning to do it yourself.

Or... just go with the miserably inferior ceramic... not my kitchen, not my renovation, not my problem.

bbqjones · Post by **bbqjones** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:31 am

smackaholic wrote:I do plan on putting down some wonderboard or whateverthe fukk they call the stuff. the old counter looked like 5/8, I figured wtf, don't cost much to make it a bit stouter. and stouter is gooder when it comes to tile. that shit don't much care for flexin'.

one other thing i am considering. i really like the idea of an undermount sink as it makes cleaning up alot easier, especially that spot between the sink and backsplash. trouble is, i got a perfectly good top mount sink and i am cheap as fukk. but, i gots an idear. i bounce it off you fukking experts just for your opinion/ridicule/abuse.

i got the sink mounted on the 3/4 ply. I am thinking of laying somemore 3/8 ply i got kicking around, ontop of the 3/4, but around the sink. then a layer of wonderboard on it. this will make the surface just about flush with the top of the sink. then i lay the tile so that it rides over the top of the sink. i then caulk the tile/sink mating surface. my biggest concern is the sink moving around a bit. i could mount the tile so that there was a gap to allow for this, but, that would make the tile more prone to cracking if something heavy is placed on the tile where it overhangs the sink.

your countertop is going to be 6 inches thick by the time you are done with this project. but like dins said, it ought to be mighty strong.

ps. should have just used some lacquer thinner in a spray bottle to peel up the old laminate.

trev · Post by **trev** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:20 pm

There is no perfect countertop but the best is engineered stone. And there's a monopoly on it down here. You have home depot and european stone company. Apparently home depot is a little cheaper, but have a rep for being sub par in customer service and mistakes. The second best is granite. Unless you know someone good granite is about the same cost as eng. stone. We almost went with an independant granite guy but ended up paying $2000 more and got the eng. stone. We went with Euro Stone Co. and a total of 6 grand for countertops. Don't miss the ceramic tile at all. We also went with drop in sink because the sink will need to be changed way sooner than countertops.

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:20 pm

Smackaholic is just thinking about the future. You will probably notice, as you get older, that the higher a counter is the more you appreciate it.

(up to a certain point)

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:58 pm

trev wrote:There is no perfect countertop but the best is engineered stone.

Uhm...

No.

Not a chance.

But feel free to tell people who work in home improvement professionally alllll about it, hausfrau.

Fake stone looks like...

Looks like...

Plastic, made to look like granite.

I cringe when I see that crap going in a house. Looks freaking cheesey.

And Q -- I was waiting until we got the after-completion report before I "BWAHAHAHA" 'ed smackaholic coming in here and mentioning how his counters were now 5 feet from the floor. Hope the feet on the appliances have enough adjustment left on them, or this countertop saga is going to get even more funny.

DIY's are usually good for some cheap entertainment.

trev · Post by **trev** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:26 pm

Granite is nice. But not perfect. Tell me how it's perfect and better than stone and I'll switch out my countertops. (Which look nice and get many compliments.)

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:26 pm

trev wrote:Tell me how it's perfect and better than stone

Trev, you think it might be about time to shut up yet?

Feeling stupid, or should I explain why I'm laughing so hard at your ignorance?

Oh, I'll just do it...

Uhm, trev...

Granite IS stone, you babbling retard. Corian, and its imitators, IS NOT.

The people who know what they're talking about are discussing countertops. Why don't you run along and do some... homemaking, or whatever you call sipping cooking sherry all day while waiting for the Meal Ticket to come home.

Some people will buy just about any sales pitch that's thrown out there. And frankly, I occasionally find myself in a position to profit from dumbfucks like trev, who think they have it alllll figured out, because they watched some 10 minute segment on cable TV. Like any contractor is going to save anyone from their own stupidity, when it comes down to arguing with a customer(which I WON'T do -- I'll give an opinion ONCE, and once only... lived through this quite recently, matter of fact, although it didn't involve counters... professionally, I just can't get into "I told you so," but I say it under my breath often, if the homeowner doesn't beat me to it).

Here's reality -- hardwood floors are better than ~~cardboard~~ laminate. Cedar decking is better than plastic(if you maintain it, anyway). And in a real no-brainer, granite is better than plastic imitation granite.

There really isn't much to debate, unless you're a hausfrau who watches topo much H&G Network, or whatever you tards watch, and read one too many brochures from Home Depot, or wherever you tards get all those ridiculous pamphlets and salespitches.

Now, don't get me wrong -- if there was an extra chunk of "engineered stone" (that's tardspeak for "dust from a quarry mixed with plastic"), I think it would make a wonderful benchtop for the workbench in the garage -- probably not very strong for the application, but the grease would wipe off pretty easily before it eventually broke). But don't be bringing that crap through the front door.

An absolutely wonderful rule of thumb for such things... if a material is made from plastic, but is made to look similar to a more common, traditional material... it's inferior.It's fucking plastic, for goodness' sake. Cardboard flooring with a wood-looking sticker on the top sucks. Plastic countertops with granite particles in it sucks. Plastic stickers over cardboard cabinets suck.

There's a whole buncha suck in the marketplace right now. The idea is to NOT install it in your home.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:12 pm

first off, let me rack the official board chauvinist pig. outstanding job smacking that chick on the ass and shooing her back into the kitchen to make us some sammiches on her plastic countertop.

my take on it all is, money no object or you "know somebody", granite/marble is the way to go.

money is an object, as it unfortunately happens to be for most of us?

plastigranite is nice enough. looks pretty. just don't put a red hot cast iron frying pan on it.

tile looks cool as shit.....when it's clean. you can put hot shit on it and it's cheap. Downside is keeping it clean.

laminate actually can be nice. in my last house I made my own laminate countertops with the 1x2 strip of maple on the end. You glue the laminate down over the maple, then rout a beveled edge. It looks nice, is reasonably easy to do and you don't have the issue of water dripping down around the edge and swelling the cardboard that premade laminate is glued to.

the last option, for the diy type is concrete. i have read quite a bit and seen pics, but, haven't actually seen it in real life, so I'll withhold judgement. this method is dirt fukking cheap....if you can do it yourself.

as for my counter height, it will be about 3/4 higher than the old one. tvo would be fukked. but we are all 5'6" or better in the smack houshold, cept for little smack, but he grows about an inch and a half a week and will be there quick enough.

trev · Post by **trev** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:30 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
trev wrote:Tell me how it's perfect and better than stone

Trev, you think it might be about time to shut up yet?

Feeling stupid, or should I explain why I'm laughing so hard at your ignorance?

Oh, I'll just do it...

Uhm, trev...

Here, kitty, kitty...

I'm not seeing your take on why granite is better than silestone for a kitchen countertop.

Sorry, but you'll have to forgive me for (after doing a lot of research) accepting an experts opinion over a construction flunky who's living from job to job to pay his RENT and support his pot habit.

Smacko, granite is the only kitchen countertop option in dins' world. As I stated no countertop is perfect. Ceramic tile is the nicest looking of the less expensive alternatives. Yes, I'll be making sammiches for all. On my antimicrobial, no maintenance, stratch and stain resistant, beautiful STONE. :wink:

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:03 am

trev wrote:[Sorry, but you'll have to forgive me for (after doing a lot of research) accepting an experts opinion over a construction flunky who's living from job to job to pay his RENT and support his pot habit.

ouch.

point, trev.

i would be happy to have either plastic or granite. there is one other advantage i believe the plastic, sorry trev, it ain't stone, countertop has. i believe that the plastic shit is a bit more forgiving to dropping stuff on. granite being the harded fukking thing there is, ain't so kind. another thing is if you drop something heavy on granite, particularly near an edge, you might chip a piece off.

now get back in that kitchen. make my sammy turkey, white and dark meat and a little horseradish sauce.

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:07 am

Granite is more susceptible to stains (you have to seal it) and is easier to scratch.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:38 am

only if you use inferior non U&L granite.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:08 pm

Things trev has decided to comment on...

She informed us that granite isn't stone, but plastic is.

She's cited an "expert" who sells Corian.

But the funniest thing of all...

She decided to comment on what people do at WORK.

Priceless.

That was based on your years of professional experience in the trades, right trev?

I'm guessing whoever did your kitchen is having a very merry Christmas this year.

Fuggin' women. When dealing with the male homeowner, it's much easier -- see, with men, you start talking tech and numbers and whatnot, and they'll nod their head a bunch and agree with everything you say, because they're desperate to appear as though they know what they're talking about, and they figure that you do know, so they agree.

With women -- women watch 10 minutes of home improvement television, and they become experts, and they'll disagree with everything you say, just to prove how smart and informed they are. Then the job ends up costing twice as much.

Men will wait until a job is near completion before they voice concerns, or will wait until a preliminary walkthrough, and adress things at that time. Women will try and tell the experienced professional how to build stuff.... even though they've never actually done it... but they saw a 10 minute segment on H&G TV, so they've got it figured out.

And unless you've been in that situation, it's hard to imagine how difficult it is to keep a straight face, but you realize it needs to be done to separate the homeowner from their coin in the mosr smooth, easy fashion... so the contractor ends up being to one who just nods his head and agrees with everything.

This scene will be played out literally thousands of time across the country today. And there will be one less of those scenes today in Tigard, OR... since the Lady of the House realized where second-guessing the professional got her.