The Mitchell Report

[Jack]

just heard Roger Clemens will be on the list.

Who else???

Will there be no HOFs from this era to actually get voted to the Hall of Fame due to steroids or alleged steroid use?

[BSmack]

What? You mean a guy can pitch into his late 40s, at a high level, when nobody else in the history of the game has been able to do so because of steroids?

Well bowl me over with a feather.

[zyclone]BTW: I just found out that the lead Prosecutor of the Albany County steroids case is a guy I went to High School with. Ought to make for some interesting conversation at the class reunion in 2009. That is, if I decide to go[/zyclone]

[Dinsdale]

Always funny when someone who knows nothing about baseball suddenly becomes an expert because the read some politicized crap in the news.


Just so you know -- Rocket isn't "into his late 40's," nor is pitching at his age without precedent... been done lots of times, matter of fact.

Do you have some sort of evidence that Nolan Ryan was on the juice?


If so, I'm sure EVERYBODY would love to hear it.


BTW-at the age Clemens was this past season, Ryan performed at a much higher level at the same age.


He must have been juicing, right?(Nevermind that it's the HGH, aka "fountain of youth" that helps the old codgers, and I don't think anyone had ever heard of it in Ryan's day).


Jamie Moyer is performing at a high level for the over-40 crowd... why don't you explain to all of us about Moyer's juice-habit. I mean, he's performing at a high level beyond 40, so the BSmacked Theory tells us he's juicing, right?


And look at Mad Dog... man, that guy has his fastball up to almost 85 these days... obviously hitting the needle.

[Dinsdale]

You mean a guy can pitch into his late 40s, at a high level, when nobody else in the history of the game has been able to do so because of steroids?

Sorry.... CAN'T. STOP. LAUGHING.


Bsmack.... seriously...


EJECT!!!!!



Unless you'd like to have it pointed out that Von Ryan's last no-no came when he was older than Clemens is now.

And about a hundred other examples of your dumbassitude.


Just eject.

[orcinus]

Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafaeil Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozzie Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenn y Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsworth, Ryan Franklin, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy Glaus, Juan Gonzalez, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte, Mark Prior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts, Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez, Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, Jason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams and Kerry Wood.

[See You Next Wednesday]

I say, let'em juice if they want to.

[BSmack]

You mean a guy can pitch into his late 40s, at a high level, when nobody else in the history of the game has been able to do so because of steroids?

Sorry.... CAN'T. STOP. LAUGHING. Bsmack.... seriously... EJECT!!!!!

Unless you'd like to have it pointed out that Von Ryan's last no-no came when he was older than Clemens is now.

Clemens is 45 you gibbering dumbfuck. Ryan was 43 when he pitched his last no-no.

Spin it as you might. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY has pitched as well as Clemens past the age of 40. Or did Roger's 7th Cy Young and his 1.87 ERA season the following year escape your gaze?

[Dinsdale]

Clemens is 45 you gibbering dumbfuck.

Nice to see you began doing your homework... AFTER getting called out for making incorrect statements.


So, 45 is "late forties" in your world?

Ryan was 43 when he pitched his last no-no.

Incorrect. When you're trying to save face after-the-fact, it's probably a good idea to use factual statements to do so.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY has pitched as well as Clemens past the age of 40. Or did Roger's 7th Cy Young and his 1.87 ERA season the following year escape your gaze?

Uhm, hate to break it to you.... but at 44(which Clemens was through most of last season), Nolan Ryan had a better ERA than Clemens did at 44. Might wanna google up each pitcher's stats beyond age 40 before you start spouting off.

Ryan is the greatest post-40 player in history. But unlike Clemens will, Ryan left the game with nothing but class.

[Dinsdale]

Albert Pujols

What's freaking hilarious to me, is that over the years when I've brought up Poohole's OBVIOUS juicing, the Tardsfans got their panties so bunched up, it was priceless. They informed me in no uncertain terms how I didn't know what I was talking about (a 50% reduction in forearm diameter after the testing out front should have been a clue).

[BSmack]

Ryan is the greatest post-40 player in history.

He's certainly the best post 40 player not suspected of juicing. Yet that is. But the list of players who have won Cy Young Awards after the age of 40 has one name.

Roger Clemens.

And the list of those who have pitched 200+ innings with a sub 2.00 ERA after the age of 40 does not include Nolan Ryan. It does however include one Roger Clemens.

And if Clemens had been allowed to keep juicing up, who knows how long he could have kept up his act?

[Dinsdale]

And if Clemens had been allowed to keep juicing up, who knows how long he could have kept up his act?

Maybe as long as you're going to try and keep up your act that you know much about baseball. Now it's become politicized, you're Mr Baseball.


Dude -- Clemens was absolutely brutal this last season. Sucked donkey balls.

At 44, Ryan was throwing no-nos, and hitting triple-digits on the gun. Rocket hasn't seen triple-digits in a looooong time.


And who's to say Von Ryan wasn't juicing?



But anyhoo -- Probably the most flagrant example was Bret Boone, hands down. From punch-n-judy to knocking-it-to-the-street-in-Safeco, MVP candidate in a 6 month span, while in his 30's... then there's Barroid, of course.

[Dinsdale]

Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafaeil Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozzie Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenn y Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsworth, Ryan Franklin, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy Glaus, Juan Gonzalez, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte, Mark Prior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts, Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez, Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, Jason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams and Kerry Wood.

PHEW!!!! I was sweating bullets, man. Fuck those cheaters... throw them all out of the game.


Sin,
Adrian Beltre

[jiminphilly]

The list:

Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafaeil Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozzie Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenny Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsoworth, Ryan Franklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy Glaus, Juan Gonzalez, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte,Mark Prior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts, Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez,Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, IJason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams and Kerry Wood.

[Dinsdale]

The list:

Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafaeil Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozzie Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenny Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsoworth, Ryan Franklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy Glaus, Juan Gonzalez, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte,Mark Prior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts, Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez,Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, IJason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams and Kerry Wood.

What... no love for me?

Sin,
Jim Edmonds



That list looks comprehensive to me.

Sin,
Garrett Anderson



I find those listed here to be deplorable humans.

Sin,
Chipper

[jiminphilly]

The list:

Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafaeil Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozzie Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenny Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsoworth, Ryan Franklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy Glaus, Juan Gonzalez, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte,Mark Prior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts, Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez,Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, IJason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams and Kerry Wood.

What... no love for me?

Sin,
Jim Edmonds



That list looks comprehensive to me.

Sin,
Garrett Anderson



I find those listed here to be deplorable humans.

Sin,
Chipper

Figure this list was compiled from the former Mets clubhouse trainer.. I am sure there are quite a few trainers in other lockerooms that had access to the same shit.. this list COULD and most likely will grow in time.

[Dinsdale]

this list COULD and most likely will grow in time.

Maybe we need a comprehensive testing program for taxpayer-funded congressional bullshit lists then. You never know what those fuckers are doing to bulk up their budget.

[BSmack]

At 44, Ryan was throwing no-nos,

A single no-no. As opposed to two absolutely spectacular seasons. Yea, that makes a whol lot of sense.

and hitting triple-digits on the gun. Rocket hasn't seen triple-digits in a looooong time.

Link?

Ryan's top end was 100.9 in 1974. By 1993, he was in the low to mid 90s.

[Dinsdale]

See, maybe you should leave the baseball talk to the baseball fans.

I was sitting there watching the game when Ryan hung it up(the game was in the Kingdome). He blew up his arm, knew he was done, and wanted to throw one more on his way out. With the arm he could barely lift, he sent his last ever pitch to the plate at 98.

Don't even try and compare 40+ Clemens' arm to 40+ Ryan's arm. Clemens hasn't seen 98 with a good arm in years, and he's younger than Ryan was when he threw at 98 on a ruptured tendon.

[orcinus]

Nice job with the list, Jim.

[Dinsdale]

A single no-no.

Which was right on the heels of his last no-no at age 43-btw.

[Dinsdale]

BTW -- without compiling a database or anything, just from a casual observation from a quick skimming of "the list"...


The Mariners' pitching staff of the last decade seem to be extremely well represented.


And they still sucked.

[jiminphilly]

http://files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf

[Shoalzie]

No shocker that Pudge and Sheff are on that list.

Interesting that Darryl Kile is on that list...gotta think that stuff contributed to his early death.

[Dinsdale]

gotta think that stuff contributed to his early death.

OK, Dr. Shoalzie.


Care to cite one study that shows any link between steroid use and any of the evil health æffects that have been armchair-attributed to them?

One?


I'll save you the trouble -- there isn't one, and most of the medicos who deal with such things don't think any such link exists, or not one that can be substantiated at this time.


But let's not let facts get in the way of a good witchhunt.

[Shoalzie]

gotta think that stuff contributed to his early death.

OK, Dr. Shoalzie.


Care to cite one study that shows any link between steroid use and any of the evil health æffects that have been armchair-attributed to them?

See Ken Caminiti

[BSmack]

See, maybe you should leave the baseball talk to the baseball fans.

I was sitting there watching the game when Ryan hung it up(the game was in the Kingdome). He blew up his arm, knew he was done, and wanted to throw one more on his way out. With the arm he could barely lift, he sent his last ever pitch to the plate at 98.

Don't even try and compare 40+ Clemens' arm to 40+ Ryan's arm. Clemens hasn't seen 98 with a good arm in years, and he's younger than Ryan was when he threw at 98 on a ruptured tendon.

Funny, Nolan Ryan himself says you're full of shit.

Check my minor-league stats and you'll see I was either striking everyone out or walking them. I had the kind of velocity -- 98 mph with regularity -- that allowed me the luxury of not being so fine with my control. Well, those days couldn't last forever. I now throw 93, 94 mph -- still fast, but not overpowering enough to base all my success on blowing guys away.

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/excerpts ... ble&page=1

Are we supposed to believe that Ryan is lying? Or, even better, are we supposed to believe that Ryan added 4-5 mph to his fastball with a torn tendon?

Go choke on a blunt dipshit.

[BSmack]

gotta think that stuff contributed to his early death.

OK, Dr. Shoalzie.

Care to cite one study that shows any link between steroid use and any of the evil health æffects that have been armchair-attributed to them?

See Ken Caminiti

Cocaine is a steroid?

[Dinsdale]

See Ken Caminiti

Uhhh.... wanna show me the coroner's report that says roids contributed in any way, shape, or form to his death?

I'll be waiting (a really long time).


Hate to break it to you Schotz, but there is no link between the two, as much as the armchair physicians love to talk about it.


None.


Not sure which part of "none" you're struggling with?

There is, however, a link between long-term cocain addiction and early heart failures. You know -- like the kind of heart failure Caminiti had.


Dude -- "Caminiti (or insert whatever name) did steroids, and had a heart attack, so therefore steroids cause heart attacks" is so completely devoid of any sort of functional logic, you should be embarrassed.


Lyle Alzado died of cancer -- steroids must cause cancer... Alzado even said so. And goodness knows, when I think of names who have contributed breakthroughs in the field of medical research, Lyle Alzado is the first name that pops to mind... didn't he win a Nobel for medical research?

[Dinsdale]

BSmack still trying to sound like he's ever watched a baseball game?

OK, Elias -- how many 300+K seasons has Rocket had since he cracked 40?


Oh... he never even came close.



BTW -- nice job taking the bait.


Anyone who actually follows baseball will tell you that 5 different radar guns will produce 5 radically different results.... but it looks good on you, though.


BTW-there's more bait dangling in front of your face -- just a matter whther you're ignorant enough to take it at this point.

[Shoalzie]

My mistake. It slipped my mind that he also did cocaine.

[Shoalzie]

OK, Dr. Shoalzie.

Care to cite one study that shows any link between steroid use and any of the evil health æffects that have been armchair-attributed to them?

See Ken Caminiti

Cocaine is a steroid?

No, but it's a helluva drug.

[Dinsdale]

"The New York City Medical Examiners Office announced that Caminiti died from "acute intoxication due to the combined effects of cocaine and opiates."


I guess John Belushi was on the roids, too.


Say it with me... "There's not one study in history linking steroids to heart disease or cancer, and most studies done so far tend to eliminate the links."

[BSmack]

BSmack still trying to sound like he's ever watched a baseball game?

OK, Elias -- how many 300+K seasons has Rocket had since he cracked 40?

Oh... he never even came close.

When Ryan was 42, he went 16-10 with a 3.20 ERA, 302 K, 98 walks and a WHIP of 1.086.

When Clemens was 42, he posted a 13-8 record with a 1.87 ERA and 185 K, 62 walks and a WHIP of 1.008.

Clemens had a better winning percentage, a far better ERA, better K to walk ratio and a better WHIP.

In every possible way you can measure pitching effectiveness, Clemens outdid Ryan.

BTW -- nice job taking the bait. Anyone who actually follows baseball will tell you that 5 different radar guns will produce 5 radically different results.... but it looks good on you, though.

So you're saying Ryan is full of shit?

Check my minor-league stats and you'll see I was either striking everyone out or walking them. I had the kind of velocity -- 98 mph with regularity -- that allowed me the luxury of not being so fine with my control. Well, those days couldn't last forever. I now throw 93, 94 mph -- still fast, but not overpowering enough to base all my success on blowing guys away.

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/excerpts ... ble&page=1

[RumpleForeskin]

Bags cut me deep

[Shoalzie]

"The New York City Medical Examiners Office announced that Caminiti died from "acute intoxication due to the combined effects of cocaine and opiates."


I guess John Belushi was on the roids, too.


Say it with me... "There's not one study in history linking steroids to heart disease or cancer, and most studies done so far tend to eliminate the links."

OK, you win...

[Dinsdale]

FISH ON!!!!


Uhm... as far as ERAs... uhm... you DO realize that AL ERAs are ALWAYS higher, right?

Maybe you can get one of the baseball fans here to explain why.

K's generally tell the power story.


At 42, Ryan had more K's, more complete games(by several times over), and more innings pitched. He faced much tougher hitters at that age than Clemens did... duh.

[Dinsdale]

Bags cut me deep

Hate to pile-on, but dude -- it was obvious to anyone outside of thwe Stros fanbase that he was one of the more guilty parties.


And the pic of him going out to congratulate Bigs(who also has to be breathing a sigh of relief today) was hilarious -- nice 60 pound reduction in body mass in a few short months. What's Bags weighing in at these days.... about a buck-sixty?

[Dinsdale]

Stros

BTW-nice pickup, Houston.


I guess it's some strange badge-of-honor to outdo the M's and the Yanks for being MLB's top-rated juice-farm.


When every star in the last 20 years of your organization is being busted for juicing, why not go out and trade for a member of thew Ruling Class of Juicers... makes sense.

[RumpleForeskin]

Hate to pile-on, but dude -- it was obvious to anyone outside of thwe Stros fanbase that he was one of the more guilty parties.


And the pic of him going out to congratulate Bigs(who also has to be breathing a sigh of relief today) was hilarious -- nice 60 pound reduction in body mass in a few short months. What's Bags weighing in at these days.... about a buck-sixty?

I suspected like everyone else, but I held my breath being the hard core homer that I am. Now, I guess the argument of who is the face of this franchise is thrown out the window. Congrats, Biggio, you are the only one left standing of the ol' killer Bs.

[BSmack]

FISH ON!!!!

Uhm... as far as ERAs... uhm... you DO realize that AL ERAs are ALWAYS higher, right?

Maybe you can get one of the baseball fans here to explain why.

K's generally tell the power story.

At 42, Ryan had more K's, more complete games(by several times over), and more innings pitched. He faced much tougher hitters at that age than Clemens did... duh.

OK asshole, Since 1945 a mere 24 pitchers have pitched a full season with an ERA under 2.00. That's TWENTY FOUR guys. Of those 24 men, Clemens is the ONLY player to do it after the age of 35.

I don't care what the introduction of the DH has done for AL run production vs NL run production, there is no fucking way in HELL it explains away a difference of 1.33 earned runs per 9 innings.