Can Non-Christians be Moral?

[poptart]

Jesus told his Apostles/Disciples, in a time of primitive communication, to spread the word.

Jesus told US to spread the message that He is the Christ.

He gave instructions to spread the message to all the world, all nations, to the uttermost part of the earth. -- something those He was speaking directly to at that moment were not capable of doing.


Mike, you don't believe the Bible is the Word of God.
Or .... some of it might be.
At least the parts that seem correct to you.

As we look at the PHENOMENAL scope of His creation in this world, and universe we live in, we can see that God's greatness and power is unspeakable.

That being so, why in the world would he provide such a half-assed book of His 'Word' for you to look at?

[Mike the Lab Rat]

why in the world would he provide such a half-assed book of His 'Word' for you to look at?

I don't know...maybe because it's so hard to get good help.

His helpers have done a pretty piss-poor job of getting His message across in a consistant manner, wouldn't you agree?

Considering the schisms, inquisitions, various denominations and their centuries of disagreement (some of which involved weaponry), I'd say that any and all claims for the "obvious" or "clear" nature of God's/Jesus's message as explained in the Bible are pretty much horsecrap.

And I'm still awaiting the first modern-day disciple to show up with Biblically-described proofs of their authenticity (immunity to poisons, being able to speak in foreign languages with no training in them, exorcism, doing verifiable miracles/healing).

[poptart]

His helpers have done a pretty piss-poor job of getting His message across in a consistant manner, wouldn't you agree?

What message does God want people to have?

[War Wagon]

He gave instructions to spread the message to all the world, all nations, to the uttermost part of the earth. -- something those He was speaking directly to at that moment were not capable of doing.

NOW I know why you moved to S. Korea, 'tart. So, how goes the conversion process? :wink:

Rack both you and Lab Rat for the interesting discussion that I've been half-assed following. Valid points from each perspective, and thus far you've avoided calling each other braindead fucktards... sorta'.

Props.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

What message does God want people to have?

Mark 12:28-34

"One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'There is no commandment greater than these."

It was Jesus's followers (some well-meaning, others ...not so much) who screwed this all up by insisting on a set of rules on how precisely this "must" be done.

The irony is that after all the quotes attributed to Jesus about the idiocy of turning worship into a freaking set of following precise rules (and religion into an exclusive club), His followers quickly turned around and did the SAME DANGED THING he condemned by setting up precise picayune rules that MUST be followed (e.g. the state one must be in prior to sharing in the sacramental communion).

It just got worse from there, to the point where the MAN-MADE differences ("oh, but we have Scriptural basis from the OT and that guy Paul...who never met Jesus...except in a 'vision'...") in how the rule-makers say how to follow Jesus's commands have resulted in some denominations going on record from time to time to assert that all the other Christian denominations that don't follow THEIR hoop-jumping aren't legit. Just look at the weirdass crap the Roman Catholics have come up with and the utter arrogance of the Southern Baptists (who have, from time to time, claimed that everyone but them are going to hell).

[Mike the Lab Rat]

Rack both you and Lab Rat for the interesting discussion that I've been half-assed following. Valid points from each perspective, and thus far you've avoided calling each other braindead fucktards... sorta'.

Props.

Mille grazie.

'Tart and I have gone on this merry-go-round many, many times. Out of all the folks I have debated on the various boards, he is -by far- the classiest and consistantly most articulate. We completely disagree on certain aspects of Christianity, but he's one of the guys who always manages to keep the debate free of ad hominems and on a high level. Good people.

[poptart]

Since it's time to fellate each other, it goes without saying that Mike is one of the top drawer posters on this board.
And I have no reason to doubt that in real life he is a quality human being.

The Bible is God's Word -- on this we have disagreement.
God speaks to us through His word, TODAY, as His Word is living and active.


In Mark 12:28-34, which you cited as the message God wants to give people, Jesus was asked specifically by a scribe to tell him which Commandment is the most important.
Jesus gave him the accurate answer to that question, but this not the same as THE message God wants us to have.
The Bible, from start to finish, is God's message to us.

The very core message of the Bible is Matthew 16:16 -- the confession of Peter that "Jesus, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

As told to us in Genesis, man became spiritually separated from God.
This separation, spiritual death, has passed to all mankind.
Genesis 8:21 -- God says that the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth.
Yes, this is man.

Man apart from God, and in the hand of satan, will inevitably fail and fail for all eternity.
Only the Christ, born of God's seed, resolves this problem, frees man, and gives LIFE back to man.
Hence, Matthew 16:16 is the answer to all life's problems.

In Matthew 16, Christ told Peter that upon those who recognize that He is the Christ (the one to solve man's problem) He would build His church, and the satan would not prevail against it.

Mike, you're definitely right that Jesus' followers have missed the mark badly.
The churches of today are failing, and the very history of the church is one of failure.
The history of Israel is fraught with continual failure.
Failure -- dating back to what happened w/Adam -- is the direct result of what?

Man losing God's Covenant.

History can't be changed, but recognition that God's Covenant is -- Jesus is the Christ -- and nothing else is absolutely critical.
THIS is what a church must be grounded in.
Or it will fail.

More, important .......

Right after the exchange in Matthew 16, where Peter recognized that Jesus is the Christ, and Jesus said this is what His Church will be built upon, Jesus took Peter, James, and John up in a mountain, where they witnessed his transfiguration -- Matthew 17.

During Christ's transfiguration, Moses and Elias appeared with Him.
Right away, Peter forgot his confession, and said to Jesus, let's make three tabernacles here -- one for Moses, one for Jesus, and one for Elias.
God came overhead in a cloud and pointed out .... Jesus .... and said to hear HIM.

The churches today speak of Jesus Christ, sure, but they actually follow Moses (legalism) or Elias ('unhealthy mysticism').
This is why they inevitably fail.
Legalism and mysticism don't solve man's fundamental problem.


Because only Jesus is the Christ -- this is God's Covenant.

[RadioFan]

Nah, it sounded more like he was identifying Jesus as God. Something you have done (to some extent) in the past, which makes your post rather interesting to say the least.

I believe that Jesus is an aspect of God (member of the Trinity, yadda-yadda), but that he was also fully human.

Fully human and a "member" of the Trinity? Indeed.

Not to go all pop on you ... but, dude.

That's the WHOLE point -- HOLY Trinity.

When one honestly contemplates that, one honestly is contemplating one of the great mysteries of the world, and God.

I don't believe for a frigging second that everything Jesus ever said in His life had some sort of grave, mystical, Godlike importance.

Nor do I. He spoke in parables, as you well know.

Some Christers insist on reading weird, deep shit into every syllable, and it makes them look and sound like the people that Monty Python parodied in "The Life of Brian" ("Blessed are the cheesemakers").

Exactly.

Or in this day in age: Blessed are the non-dancers, for they are blessed! Blessed are the non-drinkers! Blessed are the non-abortioners! Blessed are those who are pro-death penalty! Blessed are those who are against foreigners and illegal immigration! Blessed are those who can cut my taxes!

Uh, Yeah.

[RadioFan]

Sorry all.

I may have just made mvscal a convert.

I'll be preaching on Monday nights and some Saturdays.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

Nah, it sounded more like he was identifying Jesus as God. Something you have done (to some extent) in the past, which makes your post rather interesting to say the least.

I believe that Jesus is an aspect of God (member of the Trinity, yadda-yadda), but that he was also fully human.

Fully human and a "member" of the Trinity? Indeed.

Not to go all pop on you ... but, dude.

That's the WHOLE point -- HOLY Trinity.

Yeah, the was fully human - he ate, pissed, shit, farted, felt pain, etc.

That was kind of the point. He couldn't turn the human stuff off.

Otherwise, His scourging and suffering on the cross wouldn't have meant anything. It wasn't an illusion - it was real. He felt the pain. And not to get to scatalogical, but his bowels and bladder probably also released upon his demise - just like a typical human.

Of course, the whole bodily resurrection thing was a bit more than anyone else could pull off.

That's where the "God" part was obvious.

[War Wagon]

Of course, the whole bodily resurrection thing was a bit more than anyone else could pull off.

That's where the "God" part was obvious.

phew... well I'm glad That's finally settled.

No doubt some doubting Thomas will muck up the works wanting to stick his hand into his side and what such.

[Goober McTuber]

Yeah, the was fully human - he ate, pissed, shit, farted, felt pain, etc.

That reminds me of that old trivia question:

Q: What is the shortest verse in the Bible?

A: Jesus farted.

[poptart]

Yes, that was the whole point of the Resurrection. If you do not believe in the divinity of the Risen Christ, you aren't a Christian. Period. Full stop.

It's not surprising that one who's arrogance is so overwhelming that he believes he can select which parts of the Bible ARE God's Word, and which parts are NOT God's Word, would also deny the Diety of Jesus Christ.

The Bible isn't the Sizzler Buffet and Jesus Christ WAS God incarnate.

Fact of the matter is that the entire Bible from start to finish is ALL ABOUT Jesus Christ being God. lol

If you believe in Jesus Christ as a man, this just in ..... you're up shit creek, pal.


I could spend three days posting 24/7 about how the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ is God, but I'll hit just a few points here for the A.D.D crowd.


(1) The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ is God ......

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. -- Jesus Christ (The Word) is God

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. -- Jesus Christ is God

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God -- Jesus Christ is God

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. -- Jesus Christ is God

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. -- Jesus Christ is God


(2) Jesus SAID He is God .......

Jesus most commonly referred to himself as the Son of man.
Perhaps some 80 times it is recorded in the four Gospels.
This is not just some term he yanked out of hat ... like Tyrone or something.

It means HE IS GOD.

Daniel 7:13,14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

The people of that age, knowing the Old Testament inside and out, new PRECICELY that He was declaring Himself to be God.


John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. -- I AM -- Jesus Christ is God, Who IS the great I AM (Exodus 3)

John 14:13,14 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. -- Jesus Christ is God


(3) Jesus Christ was crucified because the leaders understood that Jesus was saying He was God -- blasphemy in their eyes .....

Matthew 26:63-66 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.


(4) Jesus Christ had attributes that can ONLY be said to be possessed by God Almighty .....

Forgives sin
Answers prayer
Has all authority in Heaven and Earth
Gives life
Rose from the dead
Heals
Comes in the clouds

and others .....


If Mike's church is teaching that the Bible is not the Word of God and Jesus Christ is not God, that 'church' is MOST DEFINITELY NOT the Church of Matthew 16, which Jesus Christ said is His.

Whatever group it is, it's a heretical to the core.
No doubt about it.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

Yes, that was the whole point of the Resurrection. If you do not believe in the divinity of the Risen Christ, you aren't a Christian. Period. Full stop.

It's not surprising that one who's arrogance is so overwhelming that he believes he can select which parts of the Bible ARE God's Word, and which parts are NOT God's Word, would also deny the Diety of Jesus Christ.

Your post is a mess. You start by giving a quote from mvscal and then ... refer to me and the alleged beliefs of MY church.

The Bible isn't the Sizzler Buffet and Jesus Christ WAS God incarnate.

Fact of the matter is that the entire Bible from start to finish is ALL ABOUT Jesus Christ being God. lol

The "entire Bible from start to finish?!?!"

Are you insane?

Every jot and tittle of the thing is all about Jesus being God? All the stuff about killing witches, the dietary restrictions, stories about giants roaming the earth, all of that...was about the divinity of Jesus?

If you believe in Jesus Christ as a man, this just in ..... you're up shit creek, pal.

That would be news to pretty much every denomination. The dual nature of Christ - fully human and fully divine - is, and has been, an orthodox part of Christianity. In fact, denying that Jesus was human ("God made flesh") in all ways but sin is heresy (gnosticism, monophysitism) and is in opposition to the very Scriptures you claim to believe.

Jesus's humanity wasn't just an appearance, like a hologram.

He had to eat, sleep, go to the bathroom, got physically tired, felt human pain, experienced doubt, etc.

If Mike's church is teaching that the Bible is not the Word of God and Jesus Christ is not God, that 'church' is MOST DEFINITELY NOT the Church of Matthew 16, which Jesus Christ said is His.

Nice little strawman you set up. At no point did I ever contend that Jesus was not God. Ever.

As for the "Word of God" bit, you know my opinion of the whole idiocy of every letter of the Bible being 100% scientifically and historically accurate. It's not. If you put your theological eggs in that basket, you're the one with the problem, because there are a whole bunch of factual errors in the thing. Unlike you, I don't argue that misclassifying animals, screwing up timelines, or mentions of nonexistent events (e.g., slaughter of the innocents by Herod's order) renders the whole book false.

Whatever group it is, it's a heretical to the core.
No doubt about it.

So says the guy who sure as heck just sounded like he was defending the heresy of monophysitism.

[poptart]

Mvscal's comment was cited by me because he and RF were 'interested' in your comments.


Mike,

You deny the Bible is the Word of God.
You deny the virgin birth.

So when you say you believe that Jesus Christ is God, I seriously question what you mean by it.
Saying things like .... "He is an 'aspect' of God" .... and that ...... "His omnicience was an on-again-off-again thing" .... don't bolster confidence in your confession.

On-again-off-again omniecience is not God.
And Jesus was not merely an 'aspect' of God, He IS God.

Jesus Christ said that ALL authority in heaven and earth is given to Him.


The Bible, start to finish, is all about Jesus Christ, yes.

There's a reason why He is called .... The Word.

[Dinsdale]

Jesus Christ said that ALL authority in heaven and earth is given to Him.

This guy says it, and he gets billions of groupies. When I say it, everybody makes fun of me. Life is unfair.

Sin,
LaDainian

[Mike the Lab Rat]

On-again-off-again omniecience is not God.

Chew on this:

"No one knows the day or hour, not even the angels in Heaven nor the Son, but ONLY the Father."

You were saying?

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show his servants what must happen soon."

Why would God have to give any revelations to Jesus...if Jesus was omniscient?

Oh, and explain this one:

"And Jesus advanced in wisdom and age and favor before God and man."

How in the heck can someone who "was/is/always will be" omniscient advance in wisdom?

: "He advanced a little and fell prostrate in prayer, saying, ‘My Father if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will".

Sure seems pretty less than omniscient there, doesn't he?

These weren't any parables from Jesus that have "layers", these are allegedly true accounts/quotes.

Don't try any weasel arguments about metaphors, allegories, symbolism, translations. YOU'RE the one who argues that each and every frigging word in the Bible is absolutely true and about Jesus. The authors of the quotes sure as heck seemed to show Jesus expressing definite limits to his omniscience.

In your little thumper realm, either the "divinely inspired" words mean exactly what they say, or they don't. I'm not the one who painted myself into this rigid corner. You are.

[poptart]

Before going ahead with the omniscience of Jesus Christ point, I have a question, Mike?

Did Jesus Christ sin?



For the other things .....

YOU'RE the one who argues that each and every frigging word in the Bible is absolutely true and about Jesus.

The Bible is all God's Word, and it is all true.

Actually I said this, "Fact of the matter is that the entire Bible from start to finish is ALL ABOUT Jesus Christ being God."

Well, the last thing said in the Bible is this ....

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

The first thing said in the Bible is this ....

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Who is God, who is the Creator?

John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

So the Bible starts with Jesus Christ creating everything and it ends saying that the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.

In between that start and finish w/Jesus Christ, every page in the Book IS Jesus Christ.
He IS the Word.
He IS the Creator or EVERYTHING.
He IS the Savior of mankind.
He IS everything.

So of course, the entire Bible is about ... HIM.

You're blind to it because in your warped mind he is man, born of a man.
You say He is God but You don't regard Him as such.
You regard Him as under God, and He ... IS God.

The whole Book yells out .... CHRIST.

The examples are endless.
Let's take a couple of quickies .... and from the very beginning.

Genesis 1:1-3 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

v1. God is creator.
v2. Darkness has come -- satan has overrun the earth.
v3. God gives the answer -- Christ Jesus (The Light) John 12:46, Mattew 5:14, Luke 2:32, John 1:4, Ephesians 5:8, 1Thessalonians 5:5, Revelation 21:23 ..... and many others.

Another quick example .....

In Genesis 3, man(kind) sinned, left God and became enslaved by satan.
Immediately, God promised that the Seed of the woman -- virgin birth, Christ -- would crush the head of the serpent (satan) -- Genesis 3:15.
Then after God informed man of the curse that had come upon mankind from this event, He clothed the man and woman in animal skins -- blood covenant, Christ --.

The examples are just simply endless.
The entire Bible, page after page screams out CHRIST JESUS.

And with very good reason.

There is none other name (other than Christ) under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved -- Acts 4:12.

Man looking anywhere other than the Christ is a folly.

[Goober McTuber]

Are you really 7 feet tall?

[poptart]

Only below the waist.

[RadioFan]

If you do not believe in the divinity of the Risen Christ, you aren't a Christian. Period. Full stop.

mvscal nailed something (so to speak), outside of our usual "discussions," of literal vs. interpretive, when it comes to Christianity.

Chew on this for a second:

If you do not believe in the divinity of the Risen Christ, you aren't a Christian.

That, my friends, is the definition of most Christians' "arguments," not to mention little things, like denominations or sects.

And, yes, I believe in an historical "Risen Christ," who lived in died in the physical region that is now Israel. But, on a personal level, it's not about "HIM," in a physical, literal sense, when it comes right down to it.

It's about US, and what we DO with what Christ taught. Pop and I have had discussions, via PM about this -- namely, the "outside" vs. the "inside."

I've been to Israel. A Muslim holds the key to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. Ask, and I'll tell you why.

Churches, kings and politics have twisted Christianty since Day 1. They've told us what to read, how to read, and even, on far too many occasions, what NOT to read. When it comes right down to it, it's about YOU knowing HIM, in your everyday life. And I'm not talking about avoiding a rock song or declining a beer.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

Did Jesus Christ sin?

To quote your own literary source:

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

So, on the one hand, the quote says he didn't sin...but it also reinforces my point that he was otherwise FULLY HUMAN.

Get back to that omniscience thing.

[poptart]

Jesus was fully human, yes.
Perhaps you misunderstood me, or perhaps I didn't clearly express my meaning.
I said this .....

If you believe in Jesus Christ as a man, this just in ..... you're up shit creek, pal.

My point there is that believers in Jesus Christ believe in Him as ... God, not as human, for his humanity does nothing for us.
I think we agree.

But about Jesus Christ being omniscient, this is what I have to say .....

A dog's sperm ... 'seed' ... unfailingly produces another dog.
A goat's seed will produce another goat.
A man's seed produces another man, who is a sinner.
God's seed produces ... God.

This is of critical importance to us, because we know from Scripture that all men, from Adam, are hopelessly brought into sin and separation from God -- Romans 5:12 (and others).

This is central to the Gospel.
Man, and anything coming from man's seed can not .... save man.
This is why it was necessary for God to use His seed (Genesis 3:15, Isaiah 7:14, Galatians 4:4) to bring .... HIMSELF to save mankind.
Jesus Christ (God) did NOT come from the seed of Joseph, or any other man

Jesus Christ, born of God's seed, IS God, and came to earth clothed in a man's shell.
God himself walking around in a man's shell.

John 10:30 -- I and my father are one.
Jesus (God) created everything -- John 1:3

This being so, is there anything that Jesus Christ does/did not know??

Ok, let's consider the verses you questioned.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

The son does not know but the father does?
The context of this is most interesting.
The entire chapter of Mark 13 is Jesus telling about all of the things that are going to take place in the future.
He goes on and on revealing things.
Then, in verse 31,right before the verse in question, he says, "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."
Of course this is a direct reference to the fact that he IS God, and to Isaiah 40:8, which says that"the word of God shall stand forever."

He IS God, and God knows everything.
The fact that the 'son' is said not to know that information is merely saying that in this 'role' the human Jesus does not know.
God Jesus most definitely knows.

Similarly, in Acts 20:28, we are told that God's blood was used to purchase the church.
From man's POV it was not God's blood, but Jesus' blood.
But it's the same thing.
They are interchangeable.

Also of note, there are MANY instances in the Bible where God asks questions, which sound as if He doesn't know something.
One quick example -- after Adam ate from the tree and was trying to hide, God asked him where he is.
Did God not know?
Of course he knew.

In the 'role' of Jesus, human Jesus may not know the day and hour, but God Jesus knew full well.
Human nature/God nature.

Finally, both in John 16:30 and John 21:17, Jesus' disciples said that they knew that Jesus knows ALL things, and He did not refute it.

Ok, next one is Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show his servants what must happen soon."

God sent Jesus Christ into the world.
This is just semantics, and what I've said above basically applies.

Luke 2:52 And Jesus advanced in wisdom and age and favor before God and man.

The above applies also.
Jesus in the human nature, advanced in those ways.
Jesus in God nature, is the creator of everything and knows everything.
He came with a specific 'role' to assume on earth.
Jesus wept, Jesus pissed, Jesus did such and such ....
He didn't need to advance in wisdom.
But in His role, that is what He did as a human.

Matthew 26:39 He advanced a little and fell prostrate in prayer, saying, ‘My Father if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will.'

Jesus is the son, and a son asks a father for things.
He always taught the disciples to pray to God, yet never said that he was NOT God.
In fact, Jesus always referred to the Heavenly One as FATHER, and never, except one time (and with reason -- Matthew 28:46 ) God.

The Heavenly One was Father to Jesus, not God.
God/Jesus knows everything.


A little long, sorry, Mike.
Just wanted to try to address the topic as best I could.

[War Wagon]

A little long, sorry...

Nah, ya' think? I'm not reading all that. Methinks you probed the limits of that 60000 characters thingy.

Anyways, as an impartial observer of this debate, I have to give the edge to Lab Rat. poptart, though Christ knows I luv him, just gets too emotionally drained by the whole experience. Mike is poised for the beatdown, and for the first time, 'tart may get runned.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

Jesus was fully human, yes.
Perhaps you misunderstood me, or perhaps I didn't clearly express my meaning.
I said this .....

If you believe in Jesus Christ as a man, this just in ..... you're up shit creek, pal.

My point there is that believers in Jesus Christ believe in Him as ... God, not as human, for his humanity does nothing for us.
I think we agree.

Except that many denominations, including my former one (Roman Catholicism) and my current one (Anglican/Episcopalian) argue quite strongly that Jesus's human nature was key to the whole thing, since His suffering, death, and resurrection were necessary parts of our salvation.

Omniscient, omnipotent individuals cannot truly suffer.

Jesus truly suffered. And died. For us.

He wasn't "pretending" to be human. He wasn't playing at being human, with the option to ditch it all and use his "superpowers" when the human stuff was inconvenient. To claim otherwise completely cheapens His sacrifice (and is, BTW, one of the various heresies that gnostics and a few others pushed...). Heck, what would be the point of the Devil tempting Jesus with lots of power, etc. - if Jesus was already omniscient/omnipotent?

God the Father allowed His Son to be tortured and killed by us in order to help save us. If the whole thing was just an appearance, a sham put on by God the Father and Jesus, then all your beloved prophecies were lies, and the claims by the Apostles regarding His suffering and death were also lies.

Jesus Christ, born of God's seed, IS God, and came to earth clothed in a man's shell.
God himself walking around in a man's shell.

I'd be careful there. You're sounding an awful lot like the heretics who claimed that Jesus wasn't fully human (except for sin).

This being so, is there anything that Jesus Christ does/did not know??

Yeppers. Let's revisit that quote from Mark:

Ok, let's consider the verses you questioned.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

The son does not know but the father does?
The context of this is most interesting.
The entire chapter of Mark 13 is Jesus telling about all of the things that are going to take place in the future.
He goes on and on revealing things.
Then, in verse 31,right before the verse in question, he says, "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."
Of course this is a direct reference to the fact that he IS God, and to Isaiah 40:8, which says that"the word of God shall stand forever."

He IS God, and God knows everything.
The fact that the 'son' is said not to know that information is merely saying that in this 'role' the human Jesus does not know.
God Jesus most definitely knows.

Except that Jesus the human and Jesus the God are one and the same person.

Period.

And well, Jesus Himself made it quite clear that there's stuff that the Son doesn't know that the Father does.

Also of note, there are MANY instances in the Bible where God asks questions, which sound as if He doesn't know something.
One quick example -- after Adam ate from the tree and was trying to hide, God asked him where he is.
Did God not know?
Of course he knew.

You already know my view of the whole Garden of Eden story. A fairy tale. An allegory. Plus, I'm not really keen on the subtext of the story (knowledge is bad and that if we had just been willing to obey, never use our intellect, and stay happily ignorant/stupid, we'd be just dandy right now).

In the 'role' of Jesus, human Jesus may not know the day and hour, but God Jesus knew full well.

Look, either Jesus was omniscient or he wasn't.

Period.

If you are "omniscient part of the time," you are not, by the very definition of the term, omniscient. Same thing goes for omnipotence. You're not truly omnipotent if you're only in that state sometimes.

Luke 2:52 And Jesus advanced in wisdom and age and favor before God and man.

The above applies also.
Jesus in the human nature, advanced in those ways.
Jesus in God nature, is the creator of everything and knows everything.
He came with a specific 'role' to assume on earth.
Jesus wept, Jesus pissed, Jesus did such and such ....
He didn't need to advance in wisdom.
But in His role, that is what He did as a human.

The "in His role" makes me feel as though you believe that His humanity was just a fake part he put on for the sake of appearance.

I'm arguing that it was real and He didn't have a way to "shuck" it at will. Once again - if He could, then the claims of His sacrifice (and the pain it caused God the Father, and the love GtF must feel for us to have sacrificed His only Son) are a sham. As a parent, I can't conceive of loving an individual so much that I would willingly put my child through certain suffering and death for them. The truth of Jesus FULL, limited humanity is what made the sacrifice real and mean something.

A little long, sorry, Mike.
Just wanted to try to address the topic as best I could.

Hell, it's a complicated subject.

poptart, though Christ knows I luv him, just gets too emotionally drained by the whole experience. Mike is poised for the beatdown, and for the first time, 'tart may get runned.

With all due respect WW, I disagree. Poptart and I are just debating and discussing a really freaking complicated mystery of the Christian faith. I find these discussions enlightening. It's not my aim to "run" anybody, let alone 'tart.

[poptart]

You already know my view of the whole Garden of Eden story. A fairy tale. An allegory. Plus, I'm not really keen on the subtext of the story (knowledge is bad and that if we had just been willing to obey, never use our intellect, and stay happily ignorant/stupid, we'd be just dandy right now).

The first three chapters of Genesis are the most important words every written.
In no other book does man find the reason for his problems.

It's no fairy tale.
On what basis do you decide to make that claim?

Knowledge is not bad, and that is not what the incident of Genesis 3 was about.
The tree, which was large and in the middle of the garden, was a constant reminder to man that he is God's creation and that he must live by God's word and God's grace.

Man left God's Word and fell into the state he is in .... which we see all around us, in also within ourselves.


Why did God ask Adam where he was?
There was something God didn't know?
There are many instances where God appears not to know something.

Why does Acts 20:28 say that it was GOD's blood which bought the church?
Wasn't it the son's blood?

Jesus always referred to God as the father, and not as God.
And in the verse in question (Mark 13:32) Jesus didn't say that He doesn't know, He said that 'the son' does not know.


I and my father are one.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

You already know my view of the whole Garden of Eden story. A fairy tale. An allegory. Plus, I'm not really keen on the subtext of the story (knowledge is bad and that if we had just been willing to obey, never use our intellect, and stay happily ignorant/stupid, we'd be just dandy right now).

The first three chapters of Genesis are the most important words every written.
In no other book does man find the reason for his problems.

It's no fairy tale.
On what basis do you decide to make that claim?

Talking snakes?

A perfect little oasis without disease and death that has absolutely no evidence for having existed?

The alleged cause of disease and death is...the one and only human female believing a talking snake, taking a bite out of a fruit, then offering it to the one and only human male?

Bull-frigging crap.

It's a fairy tale, a myth, that -in a cutely primitive way- tries to explain the cause of human misery, kind of like Pandora's Box.

And exactly like Pandora's Box, it is a completely made up story that only credulous dimwits could honestly believe is an actual historical event.

Knowledge is not bad, and that is not what the incident of Genesis 3 was about.The tree, which was large and in the middle of the garden, was a constant reminder to man that he is God's creation and that he must live by God's word and God's grace.

But why was living in complete ignorance of the knowledge of good and evil, the prohibition of the use of our intellect...considered an "ideal" state? Why was living in a state of childlike ignorance considered perfection?

I don't see "perfection" in being kept intellectually and emotionally retarded in a fully-stocked terrarium. That's precisely what existence was in the Garden of Eden.

Man left God's Word and fell into the state he is in .... which we see all around us, in also within ourselves.

And hey, let's delve into the "merciful" way in which our all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good Creator decided to punish ALL of Adam and Eve's alleged descendents, for millenia, for the crime committed by them.

Yeah, that's fair.

Let's recap:

Because Adam and Eve, living in a garden that has no evidence of ever having existed, listened to a talking snake and decided to awaken the intellectual gifts that they were given by their Creator (but then forbidden to actually use...), each and every one of their bloodline, for perpetuity, would suffer.

Do you SEE why people with three-digit IQ's describe the story as a myth?

The descriptions of God in the OT were written by a scientifically-primitive, culturally-primitive tribe. It completely explains their limited view of God and thus their bizarre, primitive way of describing Him (angry, less-than-merciful at times).

[Nacho]

And hey, let's delve into the "merciful" way in which our all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good Creator decided to punish ALL of Adam and Eve's alleged descendents, for millenia, for the crime committed by them.

Yeah, that's fair.

Let's recap:

Because Adam and Eve, living in a garden that has no evidence of ever having existed, listened to a talking snake and decided to awaken the intellectual gifts that they were given by their Creator (but then forbidden to actually use...), each and every one of their bloodline, for perpetuity, would suffer.

Do you SEE why people with three-digit IQ's describe the story as a myth?

The descriptions of God in the OT were written by a scientifically-primitive, culturally-primitive tribe. It completely explains their limited view of God and thus their bizarre, primitive way of describing Him (angry, less-than-merciful at times).

Mike,

Are you trying to say that there was no fall from grace for man? That sin itself did not come to be? For if there was no fall for Adam and Eve then why the need for Christ's propitiation at the cross?

Somehow I think that if people in the OT walked and talked with God, then they are connected to something our spiritually primitive yet scientificaly advanced society seems to be missing. Just a thought since you know so much. Knowledge is not the end all you know.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

Are you trying to say that there was no fall from grace for man? That sin itself did not come to be? For if there was no fall for Adam and Eve then why the need for Christ's propitiation at the cross?

I'm saying that Adam and Eve were not actual individual people.
And there was no actual Garden of Eden.
No talking snake.
No magical tree that had special fruit granting knowledge of good & evil.

The whole story was an allegory to explain our distance from God, why we suffer, etc. It was a pretty little fairy tale to try to explain a complex metaphysical, theological, philosophical issue to a set of scientifically bass-ackward primitives.

Period.

I've never been a big fan of that fairy tale, largely because of the not-so-subtle message that using the greatest attribute of our species -our intelligence- is bad and that it would have been better for us to be completely obedient to religious orders and not use our intelligence.

In one manner or another, religious authorities have been attempting to push that message for millenia: Obedience is GOOD...thinking for yourself is BAD...put all your eggs in the priestly basket and ignore the scientists/teachers/etc.

Problem is...no amount of praying by priests or ministers or rabbis or imams has ever done anything to cure disease, extend our lives, provide heat/shelter/food, provide technology for communication and transport, etc.

If society had listened to the priestly caste and their dimwitted, credulous followers, we'd still be living in mud huts, barely having enough food and clothing, and not living past 40.

Screw that.

Don't you find it a mite suspicious that the "miraculous" powers of religious folk seemed to dry up right when methods for trying to verify their claims appeared? Hmmmm?

Somehow I think that if people in the OT walked and talked with God, then they are connected to something our spiritually primitive yet scientificaly advanced society seems to be missing. Just a thought since you know so much. Knowledge is not the end all you know.

Tell ya what - have some of those people allegedly "connected to God" folks actually produce something useful, do some verifiable, repeatable healings, fly around, create some food for the starving folks, etc.

Until then, I'll let the people who've moved beyond howling at eclipses handle things.

[Goober McTuber]

No magical tree that had special fruit granting knowledge of good & evil.

I always assumed that was Cannabis.

[poptart]

The whole story was an allegory to explain our distance from God, why we suffer, etc.

What IS the reason for man's distance from God?
What has caused it?
What has caused the suffering?


It's interesting that you buy into a 'fairy tale' about a man rising from the dead, and yet dismiss the straight forward account of Genesis 3.

And btw, the guy you believe magically rose from the dead spoke of Adam and Eve as nothing other than REAL people.

[RadioFan]

The first three chapters of Genesis are the most important words every written.

Even as a Christian, I laughed.

Ease off the fermented dog, pop.

[poptart]

What words are more important?

[Mike the Lab Rat]

What IS the reason for man's distance from God?
What has caused it?
What has caused the suffering?

The refusal of humans -as individuals and as a species- to do this:

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'There is no commandment greater than these."

It's dopey to believe and teach that our "fall from grace" originates from two wacky kids eating a piece of magical fruit after listening to a talking snake.

It's interesting that you buy into a 'fairy tale' about a man rising from the dead, and yet dismiss the straight forward account of Genesis 3.

As scientifically dubious as physical resurrection seems, at least their is corroboration that the places and people mentioned in the Gospels are real.

There is absolutely nothing of the sort for the stuff in Genesis fairy tales. No evidence at all for a Garden of Eden, talking snakes, Adam or Eve, never-ending lifespans free of disease for all species, no global flood during human history that wiped out everybody but one family and their boatload of critters...

And btw, the guy you believe magically rose from the dead spoke of Adam and Eve as nothing other than REAL people.

There are other valid possible explanations for this other than a "real" Adam and Eve:

- Jesus, as a less-than-omniscient-human and raised as a devout Jew, honestly believed that Adam and Eve were real people.

- Jesus knew full well that the fables of Genesis were allegories but chose to keep referring to them as real so as to not cast even more doubts upon His already-controversial teachings. He may have decided that what little acceptance he was getting could have diminished had he made the point of saying "you folks have been so obtuse regarding complex issues that we had to sugarcoat the stuff..."

- Jesus basically decided to set aside the minor issue of the symbolism of Adam and Eve being taken literally because it was not that big a deal in the context of his main argument.

[Nacho]

I have two cats, they came with my wife. I like one, and the other I don’t. My wife wants me to love both of them like she does. I doubt that will happen. The cats mind her, and she talks to them all the time. Maybe I am a pet psychic because for some reason they are also able to communicate with me. I know when they want food or attention and other crap like that. The one I don’t like seems to be able to understand when I don’t want it around. It will run away from me when I come across something it did before I even erupt in anger.

But what is the point of telling you this? Maybe that people and animals in this day and age can communicate to some degree. I know I have seen several intelligent people ask questions of their pets over my lifetime. Heck Lassie was able to tell the forest ranger that little Timmy fell down the well…

Doesn’t communicate come from the root word communion? (Rhetorical question really)

You see prior to the fall, God and man were in communion with each other. This communion was a constant thing, and along with it man was in communion with all of God’s creation. It’s something we only have a shadow of now. At least if you have been adopted into God’s family that is, otherwise you don’t really have communion in quite the same way.

Maybe within that community their ability to communicate with animals was on a much deeper level than we now are able.

In the Garden Adam and Eve had a job, they were essentially zoo keepers and gardeners. Now it might not stimulate your intellect, but a lot of people are very stimulated intellectually by plants and animals. So I really don’t see God preventing them from using their “God given” intellects. In fact I do see that the story says that Adam was involved with naming the animals. Names had more meaning back then they do now, so maybe this creative process was very intellectually stimulating. For some reason I think it would be. I mean scientists have studied plants and animals and tried to figure them out for hundreds if not thousands of years. It can be fascinating stuff.

Mike, I think you are a bit Gnostic with your beliefs.

[Nacho]

Check out the first part of the Bible...

Of course without faith or a belief in God it will sound like gibberish to you. Get that whole "faith problem" fixed and I will give you some more to check out.

Let me know when you get that done...

[Nacho]

You mean the part where "God" tricked Eve with an apple and a talking snake?

Basically what you're saying with that first part of the Bible is that God is a dick and people are gullible and stupid.

No... I think you said that... You say that over and over like a broken record....

And since when did you start thinking people weren't gullible and stupid?

I told you that you wouldn't understand because you are limited with your non-belief, which I guess in your case is kind of like brain damage...

Which might explain a few things...

[Nacho]

No.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

You see prior to the fall, God and man were in communion with each other. This communion was a constant thing, and along with it man was in communion with all of God’s creation. It’s something we only have a shadow of now. At least if you have been adopted into God’s family that is, otherwise you don’t really have communion in quite the same way.

Maybe within that community their ability to communicate with animals was on a much deeper level than we now are able.

In the Garden Adam and Eve had a job, they were essentially zoo keepers and gardeners. Now it might not stimulate your intellect, but a lot of people are very stimulated intellectually by plants and animals. So I really don’t see God preventing them from using their “God given” intellects. In fact I do see that the story says that Adam was involved with naming the animals. Names had more meaning back then they do now, so maybe this creative process was very intellectually stimulating. For some reason I think it would be. I mean scientists have studied plants and animals and tried to figure them out for hundreds if not thousands of years. It can be fascinating stuff.

"No more for YOU, man!"

Mike, I think you are a bit Gnostic with your beliefs.

Sure.

Refusing to believe in talking snakes, Adam and/or Eve, and a disease-and-death free Garden of Eden due to a complete lack of evidence for them makes me "gnostic."

BTW, before you bring it up, citations from the Bible are not evidence, any more than citations from Lord of the Rings are evidence for hobbits.

[Dinsdale]

No.

So you think it's cool that he tricked Adam and Eve and let his own son get nailed to a cross? And that's the short list. Sounds like a total dick to me.

Dude -- you're talking to people who think that Adam and Eve put on clothing due to the shame of being naked, rather than being cold.


Ain't exactly dealing with rocket surgeons, are ya?