Can Non-Christians be Moral?

[poptart]

What IS the reason for man's distance from God?
What has caused it?
What has caused the suffering?

The refusal of humans -as individuals and as a species- to do this:

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'There is no commandment greater than these."

These Words were given by Jesus when He was asked the specific question -- Which is the first commandment of all?
His Words are correct, of course, and that was an echo of God's Commandments 1 and 2, but it's slightly off from the questions I asked.

Non-believers don't want to love the God of the Bible.
And believers have a very hard time following that love of God and neighbor themselves.
In fact, believers very (or most) often conduct themselves no differently than non-believers.

Why is it so hard for man to genuinely love God and others?
Why is there failure, heartache, sickness and mayhem .... EVERYWHERE?
This is not the way God created things.
Look at Genesis 1, and especially v. 27-29.
He created everything and it was .... GOOD.
And man was blessed above all creation, living with God and by His grace.

Again, Where did this problem of mankind come from?

View it as 'allegory' if you'd like, but the answer to this fundamental question occurs only in Genesis 3.

Man left God and became a spiritual slave to satan -- and with an ultimate fate of eternal failure.
No man can escape this.

From Genesis 3, right after they left God's Word ....

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.


Their 'PHYSICAL EYES' came open .... while they simultaneously became spiritually dark, hiding from God, who loves them and created them in love.

We humans are CONTINUALLY taken 'away' from God by the things in the physical realm, just as it is recorded originally for man, in Genesis 3.
We are continually deceived by what we goes on in our physical surroundings, rather than keeping our focus on Christ, and God's Word, God's promises.

And of course man -- apart from God -- is in a cursed existence.
Look what God told man what has happened because He left God's Word -- Genesis 3:17,18.

cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; .....

It is extremely interesting.
Cursed is the ground for thy sake.
When you pause to think about it, this is EXACTLY the case.
Is there anything that man does/has that does not come from the ground?

The bottom line is that man is entirely ... fucked, no matter what he tries to do on his own.

Thorns and thistles it will bring forth to thee.
Yes, try and stuggle, man, but apart from God, it ultimately brings dick -- eternal failure.
Nobody gets out alive.

Thank God for Genesis 3;15, however.
The first promise of man's answer, which we simply must believe to be saved.

[BSmack]

"No more for YOU, man!"

Mike,

I thought you said you didn't go to Gamma Chi parties?

[Nacho]

Sure.

Refusing to believe in talking snakes, Adam and/or Eve, and a disease-and-death free Garden of Eden due to a complete lack of evidence for them makes me "gnostic."

BTW, before you bring it up, citations from the Bible are not evidence, any more than citations from Lord of the Rings are evidence for hobbits.

Gnostic says what....

Really, it's more about how you decide what you believe that marks you one, and how you seem to think you have a keener insight then other people.

You have faith in a risen Christ yet seem to hold none for the whole roots of where Christ's faith stems from....

And you are right all the time. There is no room for being wrong....

A rose by any other name is still a rose....

[BSmack]

God could have made it so it doesn't get cold, right? Why didn't he?

That's right. He's a fucking dick. That's why.

He won't let you eat pizza in class while learning about Cuba either.

[Goober McTuber]

And you are right all the time. There is no room for being wrong....

[Mike the Lab Rat]

Gnostic says what....

Apparently you haven't got a clue as to what Gnostics actually believed, if you honestly think that my dismissal of the whole Garden of Eden fairy tale makes me one.

Hell, if you'd read any Elaine Pagels, Gospel of Thomas, or other Nag Hammadi noodlings, you'd know that a Gnostic would NOT have dismissed the whole story as a big-ass fairy tale and instead played up the "False God of Eden as asshole/serpent as Deliverer" angle. I also would NOT have been insisting on the full human nature of Christ, what with the whole "physical stuff is evil, spiritual is good" thing that a lot of Gnostics had.

But, hey, feel free to toss out any labels you feel make you look erudite, regardless of whether or not they actually apply.

Really, it's more about how you decide what you believe that marks you one, and how you seem to think you have a keener insight then other people.

No, I just prefer not to turn my God-given intellect off. Somehow, I have a hard time believing that an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good-and-loving God would want me to not use my brain and swallow the mindless pap that passes for "faith" for thumpers.

You have faith in a risen Christ yet seem to hold none for the whole roots of where Christ's faith stems from....

Ummm...we completely disagree on whether or not the Garden of Eden horseshit is the "whole roots of where Christ's faith stems from."

I argue that it is not.

There was no actual place that was the Garden of Eden. Period.

Want to prove me wrong? Find me the archaeological evidence (discovered and put forth by actual scientists and published in peer-reviewed journals).

There were no talking snakes. Period.

Want to prove me wrong? Find me research from herpetologists that puts forth evidence that says otherwise. Hell, find me an article from a herpetologist that even seriously HYPOTHESIZES that advanced intellect and speech (allowing them to communicate with humans) ever appeared in ANY ophidian species.

The origin of our intellect did not come from eating special fruit. Want to prove me wrong? You know what to do.

And you are right all the time. There is no room for being wrong....

I'm only "right all the time" because the other side has yet to prove their case with actual EVIDENCE. Hell, your side has been trying to argue that every freaking letter of the Bible has to be 100% scientifically and historically accurate in order for someone to buy into the moral message. The problem is, that is a complete line of crap and you've set yourselves up for failure. You've had to move the goalposts on the geocentric theory, meteorology, classification, historical timelines...and are fighting natural selection tooth and nail because you've lost so many other battles. You've made the complete inerrancy of the text so fundamental that you honestly believe that if one sentence is wrong, the whole book would be in question.

If you freaks would only concede that the very fallible humans who composed the Bible wrote their divinely-inspired stuff with errors in it and that the overall message of God's love (and the fact that we're supposed to love each other) is what matters, you'd stop being such a frigging embarrassment to the rest of us who call ourselves Christians.

[battery chucka' one]

I finally figured it out. I was wondering what was up with Mike the Lab Rat and now, I'm sure of it. Dude, you never told us that you were a mormon. Nice to finally get a feel for that one, brother. I'll explain to you sometime as how that doesn't make you a Christian. Peace.

Nacho, perhaps you should excuse yourself from Theological discussion for a bit.

That is all.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

I finally figured it out. I was wondering what was up with Mike the Lab Rat and now, I'm sure of it. Dude, you never told us that you were a mormon.

Hell, bco, don't get me started on THOSE freaks...they were founded/created about an hour from here and each year their warped flocks migrate here for the Hill Cumorah Festival.

All I have to do to piss off the kids-in-suits when they come knocking is discuss how we've managed to find mastodon bones all around western NY...but not a single piece of armor from the supposed "no one here gets out alive" climactic battle in the Book of Mor(m)on.

I also like to mention the DNA evidence that shreds their claim that Native Americans are a lost tribe of Israel. And all the species that alcoholic, Freemason Smith slapped into North America as being indigenous...that weren't here until the Euros came.

I'll explain to you sometime as how that doesn't make you a Christian. Peace.

I always find it laughable when one set of religious freaks who buy into fairy tales decides to mock out ANOTHER set of freaks who believe in fairy tales. Thumpers and Mormons tussling over theology is like watching two retards play chess.

[battery chucka' one]

I finally figured it out. I was wondering what was up with Mike the Lab Rat and now, I'm sure of it. Dude, you never told us that you were a mormon.

Hell, bco, don't get me started on THOSE freaks...they were founded/created about an hour from here and each year their warped flocks migrate here for the Hill Cumorah Festival.

All I have to do to piss off the kids-in-suits when they come knocking is discuss how we've managed to find mastodon bones all around western NY...but not a single piece of armor from the supposed "no one here gets out alive" climactic battle in the Book of Mor(m)on.

I also like to mention the DNA evidence that shreds their claim that Native Americans are a lost tribe of Israel. And all the species that alcoholic, Freemason Smith slapped into North America as being indigenous...that weren't here until the Euros came.

I'll explain to you sometime as how that doesn't make you a Christian. Peace.

I always find it laughable when one set of religious freaks who buy into fairy tales decides to mock out ANOTHER set of freaks who believe in fairy tales. Thumpers and Mormons tussling over theology is like watching two retards play chess.

Wow. He's not mormon? But dude shares all the attributes of a mormon's beliefs. All the way down to his cut and paste theology. Perhaps you're a Christian Scientist. That might make more sense. Also cut and paste, but without that whole anchor of 'Christian' living holding you down. There we go. That does make more sense.

I kid, Mike, but seriously, you perhaps need to understand the concept of putting God first. No gods ahead of Him means living by Faith. You apparently have a few things you gladly put ahead of your Lord. Not the least of this is your 'intellect', your 'logic', and your arrogance. You would do well to think a bit about this. I pray your get there. At least salvation isn't predicated on your accepting God's word to be truth. Just sayin'.

[battery chucka' one]

By living in Faith, you mean unplugging your brain, right?

Nope.

[poptart]

Mike, the Bible says that God created everything, and step-by-step it was all ..... Good.
He created man, blessed him above all creation, and gave man dominion over all the earth.
It was all good.

God did not create the world as a place of failure.
He did not create man as a being of failure.
No, exactly the opposite is true.

However starting from the very first recorded offspring of Adam, Cain and Abel, everything went to shit.
The history of man, as recorded in the Old Testament (and of course right into the future, and the time we live in now) is nothing short of bat-shit crazy.

Seeing as you've dismissed the Garden of Eden, the serpent, the account of how it is that man went so badly off the tracks, etc., tell us then, what theology have you made up to explain how it is that from Cain and Abel, all the way up through history to the present day, man is such a complete fuck-up.

[battery chucka' one]

Mike, the Bible says that God created everything, and step-by-step it was all ..... Good.
He created man, blessed him above all creation, and gave man dominion over all the earth.
It was all good.

However starting from the very first recorded offspring of Adam, Cain and Abel, everything went to shit.
The history of man, as recorded in the Old Testament (and of course right into the future, and the time we live in now) is nothing short of bat-shit crazy.

Seeing as you've dismissed the Garden of Eden, the serpent, the account of how it is that man went so badly off the tracks, etc., tell us then, what theology have you made up to explain how it is that from Cain and Abel, all the way up through history to the present day, man is such a complete fuck-up.

As I'm sure you'll agree with me, Pop, that when you start to yank sections of the Bible or not accepting it as a whole, you ride on an incredibly slippery slope. One of the tenets of Mormonism (and I was told this by a Mormon) is that they don't accept the Bible as being the infallible Word of God. As a result, what's in there is open to being flawed, in their eyes. Therefore, they can go ahead and play mix and match. They can put in stories of seer stones, plates, and wars in North America because, after all, the Bible isn't infallible. They can say that Christ isn't God in human form (or rather, is just one of many gods). Voila. Add what you will. Subtract what you will. You want to write a whole other book? Go right ahead. After all, the Bible isn't God's complete word. In Mike's eyes, it's just stories written by ignorant people (obviously dumber than he) who were afraid of their own shadows.

Mike, you're not dumb. Just overly arrogant and ignorant. It's not your fault. You try to jam the Bible into the world you know and expect it to be a seamless match. It doesn't fit. You need to figure out how to put the world you know into the Bible. Don't expect the Bible to conform itself to the world. It's not meant to. We (believers) are described as foreigners. That's how we are meant to look at it. The sooner you start giving ALL of yourself to your Lord, the sooner your quite obvious turmoil will end. Don't worry. Once He sees you trust Him with all of you, He'll trust you back with it.

A saved life is much more comfortable when you know to Whom it now belongs.

[poptart]

As I'm sure you'll agree with me, Pop, that when you start to yank sections of the Bible or not accepting it as a whole, you ride on an incredibly slippery slope.

As I've mentioned, the very first thing satan did when dealing w/Adam & Eve is seek to discredit the Word of God.

God didn't really say ......


Well, God DID say, in the first 3 chapters of Genesis, what man's situation on earth is, and how it became that way.

That's the account we're given, and that is how it went down.

The rest of the Bible (God's Word) gives NO indication that something contrary to the reality that what is told in Genesis is exactly what happened.

If the serpent 'speaking' to Adam & Eve troubles you, ok.
If the tree somehow troubles you, ok.
If the garden somehow troubles you, ok.

Picture it all as allegory then.
Myself, I don't see it that way, but ok.

I've never, however, seen a person who views it as 'allegory' come to a true understanding of what man's fundamental problem is.
It is, in short, why 'the church' of today is crumbling.
They've lost hold (as Israel of the O.T. repeatedly did) of what the Gospel is, and they act not much different than non-believers.
Christians are some of the strangest people you'll ever meet.
And as a result they are/have been colonized by non-believers.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

Mike, you're not dumb. Just overly arrogant and ignorant.

Let me get this straight - unless I subscribe to YOUR version of the truth, which includes accepting a story as factually true that hasn't a shred of extra-Biblical support or evidence, I (and the hundreds of millions of intelligent humans who don't subscribe to your beliefs), I am wrong.

Who's the arrogant one here?

And somehow, accepting the accumulated evidence from a wide variety of scientific and historical disciplines, is "ignorant?" As opposed to completely disregarding said evidence and completely accepting an illogical story on "faith?"

It's not your fault.

You're right.

It's the "fault" of my Creator, who gifted me with an intellect.

It's the "fault" of my parents, who passed down the genes for my intellectual potential and then provided me with the education and support needed for me to receive the best religious and academic education they could afford.

It's the "fault" of all those horrible folks who developed the Scientific Revolution, unshackling the minds of the laity from the "don't use your brain" idiocy of the power-hungry clergy and their Kool-Aid drinking followers. Inch by inch, they used their God-given minds to learn the way in which His world works and put that knowledge to use curing disease, preventing the spread of disease, treating afflictions, improving housing, clothing, and agriculture...increasing the qulaity and length of our lives. In the meantime, the clergy fought these advances tooth and nail as "thwarting the will of God."

Tell ya what sport - you and your family can rely completely on faith to cure your ills - don't get any more vaccinations, don't use antibiotics, don't use OTC or prescription meds. If any of you gets sick, just PRAY your way out of it. Go all "Christian Scientist" on us. Let us know how that works out for you.

You try to jam the Bible into the world you know and expect it to be a seamless match. It doesn't fit. You need to figure out how to put the world you know into the Bible. Don't expect the Bible to conform itself to the world. It's not meant to.

Is this your way of outright dismissing the myriad factual errors in the Bible? That I'm trying to "jam the Bible into the world know?"

I'm not the one claiming that the Bible is inerrant on factual matters.

The only ones trying to do what you accuse ME of are Biblical literalists. They're the ones trying stupidly and ineffectually to use the Bible as a science text and/or history book. They're the ones who are blindly accepting what they read in a translated, filtered-through-humans book despite the rational, scientific, and historical evidence we have.

We (believers) are described as foreigners. That's how we are meant to look at it.

Sure, because it gives you all a smug sense of superiority. Don't deny it. The reason why all those schlocky "Left Behind" books sold so well is that it gave thumpers a warped affirmation of their bigoted beliefs. Thumpers get off of the whole "fine, believe the scientists, doctors, teachers, and other educated folks...you're going to hell and I'm not" mantra. It's really big after they get pasted in a debate on the Bible's factual accuracy.

And then they often have their classic sign-off: "I'm praying for you."

Yeah, that'll help.

The sooner you start giving ALL of yourself to your Lord, the sooner your quite obvious turmoil will end.

Worked out really well for the mountain of Christian martyrs over the last couple thousand years, didn't it? You'd think that with all that praying and support of the TRUE faith, that at least one of those poor folk would have been able to conjure up a lightning bolt, fireball, or some other way to smite their heathen tormentors.

You go ahead and hug your little Bible close to your chest like a little kid's security blanket, using as as some sort of talisman against knowledge. But remember, it's the very reason you condemn that provided the technology you so love and depend upon and the medicines and vaccines that extend your life and the lives of your loved ones. It wasn't prayer that brought those things. It was "arrogant, ignorant" humans "thwarting God's will."

[Nacho]

Gnostic says what....

[Goober McTuber]

Good freaking God. What a thread. On one hand, you have the Lab Rat, one of the most thoughtful and intelligent posters on this board. On the other hand, you have two dumbfucks of historic proportions, chukka and Nacho. Then there’s poptart, who I believe is relatively intelligent, and very fervent in his beliefs.

Actually, if you just ignore everything that chukka and Nacho post, it’s an interesting read.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

Gnostic

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means
what you think it means."

[Tom In VA]

They were a good read.

[battery chucka' one]

Mike, you're not dumb. Just overly arrogant and ignorant.

Let me get this straight - unless I subscribe to YOUR version of the truth, which includes accepting a story as factually true that hasn't a shred of extra-Biblical support or evidence, I (and the hundreds of millions of intelligent humans who don't subscribe to your beliefs), I am wrong.

Who's the arrogant one here?

And somehow, accepting the accumulated evidence from a wide variety of scientific and historical disciplines, is "ignorant?" As opposed to completely disregarding said evidence and completely accepting an illogical story on "faith?"






Again, all your conclusions are from your knowledge, gained from the world that is described by the Lord as being wicked. But then, you don't accept that the Bible has any legitimacy, right? I guess you don't have to believe that the world is wicked either, eh? That one obviously came from ignorance, too. Again, you're not unlike a child. Very arrogant and self serving. To accept the Bible as, pardon the pun, the Gospel truth would mean to shake your little world apart. Therefore, you pick the parts that you want and cast away the rest. Meanwhile, you have all the salt of a rice cake.

Tell me, if I'm being arrogant in saying that there is but one version of the truth, shall we believe in any version of the truth that tickles our fancy? I guess, according to you, we should.

It's not your fault.

You're right.

It's the "fault" of my Creator, who gifted me with an intellect.

It's the "fault" of my parents, who passed down the genes for my intellectual potential and then provided me with the education and support needed for me to receive the best religious and academic education they could afford.

It's the "fault" of all those horrible folks who developed the Scientific Revolution, unshackling the minds of the laity from the "don't use your brain" idiocy of the power-hungry clergy and their Kool-Aid drinking followers. Inch by inch, they used their God-given minds to learn the way in which His world works and put that knowledge to use curing disease, preventing the spread of disease, treating afflictions, improving housing, clothing, and agriculture...increasing the qulaity and length of our lives. In the meantime, the clergy fought these advances tooth and nail as "thwarting the will of God."

Tell ya what sport - you and your family can rely completely on faith to cure your ills - don't get any more vaccinations, don't use antibiotics, don't use OTC or prescription meds. If any of you gets sick, just PRAY your way out of it. Go all "Christian Scientist" on us. Let us know how that works out for you.





Those who live by Faith understand that all things serve the Lord. Medicine is one of those things. My cousin was healed of a heart ailment through Faith and prayer. I wouldn't go that way, but some do. Medicine and science are not evil.

You try to jam the Bible into the world you know and expect it to be a seamless match. It doesn't fit. You need to figure out how to put the world you know into the Bible. Don't expect the Bible to conform itself to the world. It's not meant to.

Is this your way of outright dismissing the myriad factual errors in the Bible? That I'm trying to "jam the Bible into the world know?"

I'm not the one claiming that the Bible is inerrant on factual matters.

The only ones trying to do what you accuse ME of are Biblical literalists. They're the ones trying stupidly and ineffectually to use the Bible as a science text and/or history book. They're the ones who are blindly accepting what they read in a translated, filtered-through-humans book despite the rational, scientific, and historical evidence we have.





Again, you refuse to allow yourself to take a step off the cliff of Faith. Very sad. People like you are the ones that gave us eugenics and the concept of the Fabian society, but then, it's the Christians that are ignorant, eh?

We (believers) are described as foreigners. That's how we are meant to look at it.

Sure, because it gives you all a smug sense of superiority. Don't deny it. The reason why all those schlocky "Left Behind" books sold so well is that it gave thumpers a warped affirmation of their bigoted beliefs. Thumpers get off of the whole "fine, believe the scientists, doctors, teachers, and other educated folks...you're going to hell and I'm not" mantra. It's really big after they get pasted in a debate on the Bible's factual accuracy.

And then they often have their classic sign-off: "I'm praying for you."

Yeah, that'll help.

Good story, bad writing in those books. Nice to know that you have no desire to seen any different than a non-believer. The difference is what sets us apart.

By your fruits, you shall know them.

Faith without works is dead.

But then, these are from the Bible. I guess that means that they mean nothing to you, eh?

The sooner you start giving ALL of yourself to your Lord, the sooner your quite obvious turmoil will end.

Worked out really well for the mountain of Christian martyrs over the last couple thousand years, didn't it? You'd think that with all that praying and support of the TRUE faith, that at least one of those poor folk would have been able to conjure up a lightning bolt, fireball, or some other way to smite their heathen tormentors.

You go ahead and hug your little Bible close to your chest like a little kid's security blanket, using as as some sort of talisman against knowledge. But remember, it's the very reason you condemn that provided the technology you so love and depend upon and the medicines and vaccines that extend your life and the lives of your loved ones. It wasn't prayer that brought those things. It was "arrogant, ignorant" humans "thwarting God's will."

I don't fear being a martyr. I don't fear death. I don't fear any of these.

To live is Christ, to die is to gain.

Another of those 'worthless' quotes from the Bible. Why would they want to 'smite' their tormentors? Are you that afraid of death? I love you and pray you one day find true knowledge. However, I also pray to God thanks that you are saved. I also pray that you don't try to evangilize until you're a bit more mature.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

Again, all your conclusions are from your knowledge, gained from the world that is described by the Lord as being wicked.

NOW who sounds like a Gnostic?

Manichaean variety, in fact.

But then, you don't accept that the Bible has any legitimacy, right?

In faith and morals, plenty. In science and history...hit and miss.

I guess you don't have to believe that the world is wicked either, eh?

Nope. That would be Gnosticism. And I'm Episcopalian.

By the way...you DO realize that God made the Earth you consider "wicked," don't you? I, for one, happen to be quite impressed by the grandeur and beauty of His creation.

Again, you're not unlike a child. Very arrogant and self serving.

If that's your general impression of children, I sure hope you're not a parent.

To accept the Bible as, pardon the pun, the Gospel truth would mean to shake your little world apart.

No, it would mean completely discarding centuries of accumulated knowledge that nicely complements and reaffirms the truth of the scientific method, scientific discovery, the various laws of nature, numerous theories, etc.

To accept the Bible as literally true from first word to last would mark one as a complete frigging moron. Period.

Tell me, if I'm being arrogant in saying that there is but one version of the truth, shall we believe in any version of the truth that tickles our fancy? I guess, according to you, we should.

"Tickles [your] fancy?"

How about "Just makes a hell of a lot more sense that believing that fairy tales are true?"

IThose who live by Faith understand that all things serve the Lord. Medicine is one of those things. My cousin was healed of a heart ailment through Faith and prayer.

Ummmm....SURE he was. Never mind the fact that prayer and faith haven't been scientifically proven to make a statistical difference in getting tumors to shrink, diseases cured, etc. Heck, when they've done controlled studies, it turns out that folks who get prayed for don't get healthier quicker.

I think it's a hoot when people who claim to be able to do faith healing suddenly refuse to do so under scientifically-controlled conditions under the objection of "putting the Lord to the test." Nice dodge. Reeks of fraud.

If you and your family honestly want to believe that good thoughts made a difference, bully for you. Then again, there are folks who honestly believe in ghosts, auras, homeopathy, divining rods, witchcraft, and the Force. With a few rare exceptions, most of the delusions are harmless to others. I think that Christian Scientists are fucking nuts, but hey - as long as they don't do anything to impede the health of me or anyone in my family, let 'em refuse medical treatment and die. Same goes for JW's or any other whackass group of snake-handlers.

Again, you refuse to allow yourself to take a step off the cliff of Faith. Very sad.

I find it sadder that you consider blind obedience to religious authority and intellectual laziness some sort of virtue.

People like you are the ones that gave us eugenics and the concept of the Fabian society, but then, it's the Christians that are ignorant, eh?

"People like [me]?" Gee whiz, bco, hyperbole much? Just because I don't swallow your fundamentalist Kool-Aid and surrender my intellect to a mindless acceptance of Biblical literalism, I'm suddenly lumped in with a bunch of socialist freaks (you do realize that the Fabians were/are socialists, right?) and morons who misapplied science?

First off, nutjob - I'm a libertarian (and a Libertarian). Nationalizing property, socialized health care, government-dictated economic redistribution...not my thing. The Fabian Society has nothing to do with either me, my beliefs, or whether or not someone is intellectually mature enough to not swallow fundamentalist horseshit.

You have a habit of tossing terms around without really knowing what the hell you're talking about (for example, your earlier use of the term "Gnostic").

Secondly - eugenics? How in the hell does my not believing in the literal truth of Genesis have you careening off the tracks so wildly and accusing me of near-Nazism? Does the threat to your little childlike world seem so scary that you have to equate a non-reliance on clergy and Scripture with forced sterilizations, ethnic cleansing, etc? You didn't see me equating you and poptart with Torquemada, Crusaders, or witch-trial freaks did you? I merely stated the indisputable fact that religious folk have fought scientific progress, from heliocentrism, vaccination, genetics, dissection to learn about anatomy, in vitro fertilization, evolution...

The bottom line is that religious folk don't like science because it breaks their control over the masses. Your own persistant droning about blind, unquestioning "Faith" being all we need and paranoid description of human inquiry (and exaggeration of its impacts) just hammers that home even more effectively than any argument that I could make.

By your fruits, you shall know them.

Faith without works is dead.

Why am I picturing you with your fingers in your ears as you chant these words?

I also pray to God thanks that you are saved. I also pray that you don't try to evangilize until you're a bit more mature.

Considering the lack of converts you've made in this thread, I'd be a little less generous with my advice on effective evangelism (and assessment of relative maturity) if I were you...

[battery chucka' one]

Mike. Several things you should know.

1. I'm not religious. I live by Faith in my Lord Jesus, understanding that I am a sinner and cannot, by my own accord, ever do anything to deserve sniffing salvation.

2. Never in my life have I either uttered or written the words Gnosticism and/or Gnostic. Perhaps you should pay a little more attention.

[poptart]

How in the hell does my not believing in the literal truth of Genesis ......

Forget literal truth.
Do you understand the truth of Genesis 1-3 on any level?

Happens to set the stage for the entirety of the Bible, and it tells us about the very fundamentals of the condition of mankind.


Yeah, you might say it's fairly important stuff.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

The irony is that this thread is turning into a longer read than the actual Bible.

Thought I'd point that out.

[battery chucka' one]

Mike, you mention that my God created this earth. Yes, He did. However, He didn't intend for us to live in it. We were meant to live in the garden, with God. He also gave us free will. We chose to live in the world, outside of paradise. Therefore, we chose to live in the wickedness. You choose to continue to do so.

You would do well to understand the parable of the sower. Your's is either the seed that landed on the rocks or in the thorns (probably the latter). For both, the seed sprung up. Both, however, were ultimately worthless beyond the initial planting (probably the former was totally worthless due to its shallowness). Those, Mike, would be you. Is that what you want for yourself?

[RadioFan]

I finally figured it out. I was wondering what was up with Mike the Lab Rat and now, I'm sure of it. Dude, you never told us that you were a mormon.

All I have to do to piss off the kids-in-suits when they come knocking is discuss how we've managed to find mastodon bones all around western NY...but not a single piece of armor from the supposed "no one here gets out alive" climactic battle in the Book of Mor(m)on.

I've found that offering them a Coke or a Dr.Pepper works fairly well, too.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

2. Never in my life have I either uttered or written the words Gnosticism and/or Gnostic. Perhaps you should pay a little more attention.

You're right. Sorry 'bout that - got my Thumpers mixed up.

[BSmack]

1. I'm not religious. I live by Faith in my Lord Jesus, understanding that I am a sinner and cannot, by my own accord, ever do anything to deserve sniffing salvation.

So, is salvation attained through grace?

If so, why bother ever reading the Bible?

[Nacho]

Mike,

It seems like you are missing the point...

YOU have a faith of sorts from study of the Bible. Yet you seem to disregard mans condition with sin and the whole reason why Christ would have gone to the cross for that.

Like Pop has asked you several times and you seem to avoid answering it. Do you understand the truth in Genesis on any level?

B-Smack

Just because there is grace it doesn't discount the whole free will thing. For instance, If I throw a party and send out invitations to everyone I know and only a few show up. Only a few are going to get to enjoy the party.

It's a simple analogy, but you asked a silly question.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

I think BCO has acquitted himself rather well in this thread.

When the revolution comes, I'll put a good word into the central planning committee that he be allowed the
position of head curator of museums of religion.

[battery chucka' one]

1. I'm not religious. I live by Faith in my Lord Jesus, understanding that I am a sinner and cannot, by my own accord, ever do anything to deserve sniffing salvation.

So, is salvation attained through grace?

If so, why bother ever reading the Bible?

Yes, it is attained through Grace alone (our only choice is the acceptance of that Grace).

Your second question is one I used to excuse my own laziness for quite some time. I was saved yet never went to church nor read or understood the Bible. I said, ' why bother'. I now do read the Bible, daily. The reason to bother is to get a better understanding of God. To know Him better. It's His Word.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

How in the hell does my not believing in the literal truth of Genesis ......

Forget literal truth.
Do you understand the truth of Genesis 1-3 on any level?

Happens to set the stage for the entirety of the Bible, and it tells us about the very fundamentals of the condition of mankind.


Yeah, you might say it's fairly important stuff.

Its....an....allegory.

Period.

There was no evidence -anywhere- for an idyllic Garden of Eden, in which no death or disease existed.

No evidence. None.

There is no evidence -anywhere- that at any point in history, snakes could communicate with humans, much less outsmart them.

No evidence. None.

The reason for disease, suffering, natural disasters, and physical death is NOT because some arboreal tart got hoodwinked by a snake and then roped her dimwitted lovemonkey into eating the same magical fruit. You, Nacho, and bco can pontificate and prosyletize all you want, but the fact of the matter is that the whole frigging book of Genesis is nothing more than a Judeo-Christian version of "Aesop's Fables" or "Just So Stories." I know it gets your holy-roller knickers in a twist to read this, but that's all those scientifically inaccurate and historically unfounded little stories are - allegories written by a bunch of primitive folks to understand and explain why there is suffering, disease, and death. Our civilizations hadn't figured out that genetics or microbes (and not sin or magic) caused disease, that matter is made of atoms and molecules, that we're on a planet that circles a ball of flaming gas, that climate and weather are natural phenomena and somewhat predictable, that whales aren't frigging fish, etc. - so a simple story was composed to explain a complex issue to the simple-minded. We've long since determined the truths on the other matters, and yet, some of the simple-minded insist on clinging to the allegory as literal truth. It's like a 30-year-old still believing in Santa.

I think it's funnier than hell that among those who so heartily embrace the message that "faith is good and thinking is bad"...are inbred twits on the far left hand side of the intellectual bell curve. It's a lovely way to build up the self-esteem of the dimwitted - put down intelligence, science, and intellectual inquiry as "arrogant" or overrated. Yeah, you might be a paste-eating mental midget, but that makes you one of God's favorites!

Jesus didn't live as a human, preach His message, suffer, die, and raise from the dead just because two actual rubes named Adam and Eve ate magical fruit and caused God to curse every frigging generation from that point on for the stupidity of two specific people (I know "St.Paul" argues otherwise, but he's an opportunistic con-man who is full of shit).

C'mon, Jesus said that we're supposed to forgive seven times seventy times...but it was OK for God to punish our entire species, for generation after generation, for something that was allegedly done by the FIRST two humans (in a situation that most judges would consider entrapment)? Isn't that more than a little hypocritical?

Humans insisted on constantly disobeying God and crapping on each other despite the advice and warnings of His messengers, and eventually He sent Jesus. Basically, we didn't take hints very well, so He sent Himself down to do the job.

[battery chucka' one]

How in the hell does my not believing in the literal truth of Genesis ......

Forget literal truth.
Do you understand the truth of Genesis 1-3 on any level?

Happens to set the stage for the entirety of the Bible, and it tells us about the very fundamentals of the condition of mankind.


Yeah, you might say it's fairly important stuff.

Its....an....allegory.

Period.

There was no evidence -anywhere- for an idyllic Garden of Eden, in which no death or disease existed.

No evidence. None.

There is no evidence -anywhere- that at any point in history, snakes could communicate with humans, much less outsmart them.

No evidence. None.

The reason for disease, suffering, natural disasters, and physical death is NOT because some arboreal tart got hoodwinked by a snake and then roped her dimwitted lovemonkey into eating the same magical fruit. You, Nacho, and bco can pontificate and prosyletize all you want, but the fact of the matter is that the whole frigging book of Genesis is nothing more than a Judeo-Christian version of "Aesop's Fables" or "Just So Stories." I know it gets your holy-roller knickers in a twist to read this, but that's all those scientifically inaccurate and historically unfounded little stories are - allegories written by a bunch of primitive folks to understand and explain why there is suffering, disease, and death. Our civilizations hadn't figured out that genetics or microbes (and not sin or magic) caused disease, that matter is made of atoms and molecules, that we're on a planet that circles a ball of flaming gas, that climate and weather are natural phenomena and somewhat predictable, that whales aren't frigging fish, etc. - so a simple story was composed to explain a complex issue to the simple-minded. We've long since determined the truths on the other matters, and yet, some of the simple-minded insist on clinging to the allegory as literal truth. It's like a 30-year-old still believing in Santa.

I think it's funnier than hell that among those who so heartily embrace the message that "faith is good and thinking is bad"...are inbred twits on the far left hand side of the intellectual bell curve. It's a lovely way to build up the self-esteem of the dimwitted - put down intelligence, science, and intellectual inquiry as "arrogant" or overrated. Yeah, you might be a paste-eating mental midget, but that makes you one of God's favorites!

Jesus didn't live as a human, preach His message, suffer, die, and raise from the dead just because two actual rubes named Adam and Eve ate magical fruit and caused God to curse every frigging generation from that point on for the stupidity of two specific people (I know "St.Paul" argues otherwise, but he's an opportunistic con-man who is full of shit).

C'mon, Jesus said that we're supposed to forgive seven times seventy times...but it was OK for God to punish our entire species, for generation after generation, for something that was allegedly done by the FIRST two humans (in a situation that most judges would consider entrapment)? Isn't that more than a little hypocritical?

Humans insisted on constantly disobeying God and crapping on each other despite the advice and warnings of His messengers, and eventually He sent Jesus. Basically, we didn't take hints very well, so He sent Himself down to do the job.

So, let's get this straight. According to you, Mike:

Genesis is crap
The NT, for the most part, is garbage
JC's teaching of original sin was fallacious
God is a hypocrite
the church is predicated on a lie

Am I close there?

[poptart]

So, is salvation attained through grace?

If so, why bother ever reading the Bible?

Good questions.

Salvation is not the only thing to be gained by reading the Bible.

The Bible is the LIVING Word of God.

It is active, and the Words within are being fulfilled to this day.

Man was made to live w/God and His Word.

Humans insisted on constantly disobeying God and crapping on each other despite the advice and warnings of His messengers, and eventually He sent Jesus. Basically, we didn't take hints very well, so He sent Himself down to do the job.

Mike, a few questions if you have the time.

What, in your view, happens if a person believes in Jesus Christ?
In other words, what is the reason for a person to do so?
Is there some 'salvation' involved?
If so, from what are people saved?

And finally, can a Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist, ... or anyone else, attain the same salvation?

[Mike the Lab Rat]

What, in your view, happens if a person believes in Jesus Christ?
In other words, what is the reason for a person to do so?
Is there some 'salvation' involved?
If so, from what are people saved?

And finally, can a Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist, ... or anyone else, attain the same salvation?

Tough questions. Ones that Christian denominations have been wrestling with for a heck of a long time and to which I don't have any clear answers.

On the one hand, if all faiths are "spiritually equivalent" and all that matters is basically being a good person, then what was the point of God making such a point of making sure that we worship HIM alone, follow HIS specific rules, and sending down HIS Son? What is the advantage of being Christian if everyone who is loving and moral, regardless of their faith (or lack thereof) gets to heaven?

On the other hand, how can an all-good, all-powerful, all-knowing, loving God possibly condemn His children who, for one reason or another, do not worship Him as proscribed in the Christian faith...but are otherwise following His rules (loving their "vision" of God with all their hearts, etc. and loving each other as they love Him)?

Isn't part of the problem the inability or incompetence of His human followers to effectively get His message out? If that's the case, why did the communication powers given to the Apostles/Disciples via the Holy Spirit in Acts go away when one could argue that they are most needed? Are His modern-day messengers going to be punished or otherwise held responsible for their ineffectiveness?

Tough questions.

I honestly don't have any answers.

[BSmack]

B-Smack

Just because there is grace it doesn't discount the whole free will thing. For instance, If I throw a party and send out invitations to everyone I know and only a few show up. Only a few are going to get to enjoy the party.

It's a simple analogy, but you asked a silly question.

It's not exactly analogous. A more appropriate analogy would be if your party was one of only two parties anywhere on the planet and the other party was being held at Poptart's and featured roast dog and endless Bible reading sessions. Salvation is essentially like getting an invite you can't refuse? Right?

Yet that invite is something that shows up whether you do anything to justify it or not. For all we know of the mind of God, David Duke might already have his ticket punched and Mother Theresa is hangin with Poptart eating roast dog asking exactly what the fuck she did wrong with her life.

As far as I am concerned, salvation through grace alone is like saying that you don't need to do shit to be saved. You don't have to go to church, you don't have to read the Bible, you don't have to vote for Mike Huckabee and you sure as hell don't have to stop sinning.

In fact, as I read it, our efforts to stop sinning have worked out about as well as our efforts to find WMDs in Iraq. So why try? Just say "Thanks for the invite God!" and wait for your Golden Ticket to be sent to you. Better yet, if you're really certain as to your own salvation, why not take up every super dangerous sport in the world? Just think, Dale Sr. is probably up in Heaven laughing at you right now.

[poptart]

As far as I am concerned, salvation through grace alone is like saying that you don't need to do shit to be saved. You don't have to go to church, you don't have to read the Bible, you don't have to vote for Mike Huckabee and you sure as hell don't have to stop sinning.

It's true.
You don't have to do anything other than receive Jesus Christ to have salvation.

From the beginning of the Bible we see that God works according to HIS own grace, and not by man's doings.

Salvation is being freed, at the spiritual level, from the hand of satan.

A saved person can go on sinning, not go to church, act like an a-hole (read about Jacob), and not vote for Mike Huckabee.

BUT, sinning separates one from God, and it is infinitely better and more beneficial to a person not to be apart from God.
When a believer gets a taste of that closeness, and God's grace, he knows it's true.
Over time he comes to prefer being close to God rather than apart from Him.

We come out of the chute APART from God, and we are conditioned from the beginning to make our own way, adapt in our world, find our OWN comfort.
This behavior is deeply rooted in us, so by the time one receives Christ he has been conditioned to find enjoyment away from God.
These behaviors don't change easily, and some of them, never.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

So, let's get this straight. According to you, Mike:

Genesis is crap

It's an allegory. Claiming it is literal truth is crap.

The NT, for the most part, is garbage

Define "garbage."

My position is that serious "retconning" occurred in the accounts, with the intention of legitimizing the Apostles' arguments for Jesus's validity as the Messiah. The overall truth is in there, but there are enough inconsistancies between the four Gospels that folks like mvscal and Dinsdale could have a field day picking them apart.

JC's teaching of original sin was fallacious

Ummm...actually, Jesus didn't teach about Original Sin. AFAIK, the first dude in the NT to discuss the concept was Paul. Jews (of which Jesus was one, remember) don't buy the concept of original sin.

God is a hypocrite

As presented by the power-grubbing, scientifically-illiterate, self-interested hierarchy that compiled and edited the book we call the Bible, unfortunately...yes.

I don't believe He is, but his earthly secretaries sort of screwed up some things in the translation.

the church is predicated on a lie

Whose church? The one of the Roman Catholics, who claim to be the only true keepers of the flame from the times of Peter?

The various Protestant denominations, who each claim to have some uniquely true hold on the "truth?"

The Baptist nutjobs, who have their own whackass views, including selective enforcement of codes from Leviticus, literal interpretation of the Bible (a true howler, that one), and a tee-totaling Jesus (the guy was a Jew and his first public miracle was making booze, for criminy sake...).

That's before we get into freakshows like the JW's, the Mormons, Christian Scientists.

ALL of whom are genuine, devout believers of their own particular version of "the truth." The problem, of course, is that these versions can't ALL be 100% true. The RCC's and the Baptists are particularly snotty about claiming that everybody but them is getting that "true salvation" bit.

[poptart]

The 'denominations' are a creation of man, not God.
So no surprise at all that they fracture, deceive and pervert unity among believers in Jesus Christ.

Christ's church is not built on any denomination.
His church is built on individual people.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 16:16-19 what kind of people His church is built on.

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Those who recognize and confess that Jesus is the Christ are those who Christ's church is built upon.

Jesus is the Christ are not your ordinary words.

The early church held on to this simple fact as the covenant, and with it, they completely (and against all odds and logic) conquered their field.

Because -the Christ- is the one promised by God to bring life and complete freedom back to man which he lost as a result of the event of Genesis 3.

Man(kind), as promised by God, surely died a spiritual death in the day that he left God's word.
Man became spiritually caught by satan, and no matter what happens, man becomes a person of failure.
It is inevitable -- a man will fail.
He will fail miserably, totally for all eternity.
We see people looking good, feeling good, prospering -- for a season -- but they will meet their limit and fail.

A 'church' (or a particular church philosophy) won't bring a person out of this.
Only Jesus the Christ brings a person out.
And this is what the early church was built on.
They went forth with the simple message that the ONE who gave life and freedom has come, so simply take Him and hold Him as your covenant.

Genesis 3:15 --> Isaiah 7:14 --> Galatians 4:4 --> Matthew 16:16 --> 1John 3:8

I urge people reading this to go through those verses in that order and understand what it means.

To this very day Christ continues to build his church upon this, and in parts of the world (China is a particularly phenomenal example) the Word movement of the early church (Jesus is the Christ) is growing with incredible vigor.
Folks have not HEARD of God, let alone the Gospel, and they are not jaded by some notion of a 'God' or 'Church' which has been put before them.
So they take the message with great hunger and find their life answer.

America is a much different field, because people are already well acquainted with a 'form' of Christianity as put forth by a given denomination.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

The 'denominations' are a creation of man, not God.
So no surprise at all that they fracture, deceive and pervert unity among believers in Jesus Christ.

Completely concur.

Christ's church is not built on any denomination.
His church is built on individual people.

Ah, but human nature screws things up. You'll have a set of lazy and/or dimwitted folks who are desperate to get a step-by-step set of directions ("please....tell us what to do!!!"), and another set of ambitious, power-hungry folks more than willing to be the self-appointed, "enlightened" priestly caste ("here - I've read the Scriptures and will explain them for you...you must do as I say...").

Those who recognize and confess that Jesus is the Christ are those who Christ's church is built upon.

You make it sound so simple. Maybe it's supposed to be that simple.

But, you've got people debating over things like Original Sin (which, as I've already pointed out, Jesus never discussed and Jews don't teach), various sacraments, whether or not Peter had primacy - and if he did, was he empowered to designate specific "heirs?"

The early church held on to this simple fact as the covenant, and with it, they completely (and against all odds and logic) conquered their field.

Actually, things looked pretty bleak until Constantine made Christianity the state religion of Rome (btw, he was Christian AND still worshipped other gods...sort of covering his bases). Christianity and its various denominations took off, one could argue, not because the masses across civilization felt the Holy Spirit...but because certain individuals with armies behind them compelled citizens to convert and worship.

America is a much different field, because people are already well acquainted with a 'form' of Christianity as put forth by a given denomination.

Also because the refusal of our Founding Fathers to allow a "state church" let the people worship (or not) as they individually saw fit. People were no longer forced by civil law to be whatever denomination the state required, allowing them to choose whichever version of God (even his absence or irrelevance) they wanted. If the words of Scripture brought an individual to Christ, wonderful - they just shouldn't try to use government force to make their neighbor follow Christ if the neighbor doesn't feel similarly "called" by Scripture.

Christians can cry all they want about how everything in America went to hell in a handbasket when we "took God out of the schools," but that's complete horseshit. In the words of Thomas Jefferson:

"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites."

[battery chucka' one]

B-Smack

Just because there is grace it doesn't discount the whole free will thing. For instance, If I throw a party and send out invitations to everyone I know and only a few show up. Only a few are going to get to enjoy the party.

It's a simple analogy, but you asked a silly question.

It's not exactly analogous. A more appropriate analogy would be if your party was one of only two parties anywhere on the planet and the other party was being held at Poptart's and featured roast dog and endless Bible reading sessions. Salvation is essentially like getting an invite you can't refuse? Right?

Yet that invite is something that shows up whether you do anything to justify it or not. For all we know of the mind of God, David Duke might already have his ticket punched and Mother Theresa is hangin with Poptart eating roast dog asking exactly what the fuck she did wrong with her life.

As far as I am concerned, salvation through grace alone is like saying that you don't need to do shit to be saved. You don't have to go to church, you don't have to read the Bible, you don't have to vote for Mike Huckabee and you sure as hell don't have to stop sinning.

In fact, as I read it, our efforts to stop sinning have worked out about as well as our efforts to find WMDs in Iraq. So why try? Just say "Thanks for the invite God!" and wait for your Golden Ticket to be sent to you. Better yet, if you're really certain as to your own salvation, why not take up every super dangerous sport in the world? Just think, Dale Sr. is probably up in Heaven laughing at you right now.

Do you even know what Grace is? We'll start from there and branch out further.