Big 10 Fans, a Little Help?

[Terry in Crapchester]

I read on a ND blog that the Big Ten was extending its conference season to include Thanksgiving weekend. Any truth to that?

And if so, is there any possibility that the Big Ten will allow its members to play ND after September?

[peter dragon]

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hope this helps

[SoCalTrjn]

ND could play all the Big 10 schools they wanted after September if they joined the Big 10

[Terry in Crapchester]

Not gonna happen (not anytime soon, anyway), so why even bring it up?

Btw, you do know that if the Big Ten had let ND in when ND wanted to join, ND-USC would not be the rivalry it is today, don't you?

[WolverineSteve]

is there any possibility that the Big Ten will allow its members to play ND after September?

Yep, that's what we need. The NCAA, The Big Ten, ESPN, ABC, NBC, and CBS need to make life easier for ND. Fuck ND! Nobody needs your asses anymore. Join a fucking conference (save the annual long winded "never gonna happen" post) or STFU!! If it's tough to schedule games against teams that happen to be in a conference...tough shit.

"The SC/ND rivalry wouldn't be what it is today... :cry:" blah, blah, blah. Times change. Everyone outside of South Bend, Indiana caught on some time ago... it was in all the papers. Michigan once had rivalries with Harvard and Univ. of Chicago, shame we didn't sell out to keep those beauties kicking. ND is a victim of their own greed, they deserve all they get. Most kids on CFB rosters next year can't remember a ND team that won a bowl game....that is how you slip into irrelevence.

[SoCalTrjn]

Fuck, the way Neuter Lame has killed USC's SOS, the Trojans would be better off without annual games vs the Irish. They could have used those dates for some home and home games vs better programs like Boise State or Utah

[Killian]

is there any possibility that the Big Ten will allow its members to play ND after September?

Yep, that's what we need. The NCAA, The Big Ten, ESPN, ABC, NBC, and CBS need to make life easier for ND. Fuck ND! Nobody needs your asses anymore. Join a fucking conference (save the annual long winded "never gonna happen" post) or STFU!! If it's tough to schedule games against teams that happen to be in a conference...tough shit.

"The SC/ND rivalry wouldn't be what it is today... :cry:" blah, blah, blah. Times change. Everyone outside of South Bend, Indiana caught on some time ago... it was in all the papers. Michigan once had rivalries with Harvard and Univ. of Chicago, shame we didn't sell out to keep those beauties kicking. ND is a victim of their own greed, they deserve all they get. Most kids on CFB rosters next year can't remember a ND team that won a bowl game....that is how you slip into irrelevence.

Hahaha, bitter Wolverine. 1/2 a national championship in 60 years and ND is irrelevant? Irony, thy name is "skunkbear".

[Terry in Crapchester]

is there any possibility that the Big Ten will allow its members to play ND after September?

Yep, that's what we need. The NCAA, The Big Ten, ESPN, ABC, NBC, and CBS need to make life easier for ND. Fuck ND!

Steve, Steve, Steve . . .

You guys are willing to play the fucking MAC in October and November. If ND hasn't earned at least the same consideration as the MAC from your conference, maybe it's time for ND to drop the Big Ten from its schedule permanently. Not that Kevin White has the balls to do it.

Nobody needs your asses anymore. Join a fucking conference (save the annual long winded "never gonna happen" post) or STFU!! If it's tough to schedule games against teams that happen to be in a conference...tough shit.

"The SC/ND rivalry wouldn't be what it is today... :cry:" blah, blah, blah. Times change. Everyone outside of South Bend, Indiana caught on some time ago... it was in all the papers. Michigan once had rivalries with Harvard and Univ. of Chicago, shame we didn't sell out to keep those beauties kicking. ND is a victim of their own greed, they deserve all they get. Most kids on CFB rosters next year can't remember a ND team that won a bowl game....that is how you slip into irrelevence.

I don't live in South Bend, IN, but I cherish ND's independence. As does the overwhelming majority of ND's fanbase, which, last I checked, was a national fanbase. One of the few that remains national, btw. Ya think that maybe not being in a conference has something to do with that?

As for ND selling out, I'll point out that it was the rest of college football, not ND, that changed, and leave it at that.

[Killian]

Time out. OSU has a completely different licensing agreement than ND, so unless you have all the numbers, it's impossible to displace OSU as #1 because they aren't part of the same agreement.

[Terry in Crapchester]

I would bet some serious scratch that Notre Dame's national fan base is not as large as Ohio State's national fan base. It has something to do with 425,000+ living alumni that are dispersed across the country.

No question about it, ND doesn't have nearly as many living alumni as tOSU, given that ND's campus is much smaller. I would estimate 150,000 living alumni for ND, and that's probably a generous estimate.

Having said that, however, two points. First, while I have no reason to doubt that tOSU's alumni are dispersed throughout the country, the same is true about ND's alumni base. And I would bet some serious scratch that the portion of tOSU's alumni base that resides in Ohio is much more substantial, even on a percentage basis, than is the portion of ND's alumni base that resides in Indiana. Second, ND also has a base of subway alumni, also dispersed throughout the country, that is much more numerous than, and every bit as fanatical about ND football as, the alumni. I seriously doubt that ND ever gets a national TV deal if all it brings to the table is 150,000 living alumni, even if they are spread out around the country.

It also has something to do with television coverage.

Yep, I'll address that one later.

It also has something to do with winning. In just about any part of the country, you can find an Ohio State club having a game day party. I would also make that bet for some other schools (Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, Texas etc.).

I don't doubt that. But what you might not realize is that ND belongs on that list as well.

ND has its own thing going. That's cool. It's just not that special anymore. A lot of schools have a "national fan base" these days.

Disagree, at least in part. I'd say that if anything, fewer elite programs have a national fan base than was the case when we were kids.

Once upon a time, there was one game on TV, and it was televised nationally. More often than not, you'd see OU-Nebraska, Texas-aTm, tOSU-Michigan or Alabama-Auburn on national TV. These days, many if not most of those games are often regionally televised. The regional TV scheduling has killed much of the national fan bases that previously existed. ND stands as a notable exception against that backdrop.

One unscientific way to gauge the size of the national fan base is through college licensing. Ohio State has been #1 in licensing revenue for a long time. ND does well, but no as well. Walk into a sports shop anywhere in the country. You're likely to find a ton of garb for the local team and a few "national" programs like Ohio State, any prior year's football champion, etc. ND is probably going to be there too. But not always. I don't see much ND stuff in Ohio in recent years. It used to be here all the time. Times change, man.

Killian already addressed the licensing issue.

A few years back, Harris conducted a poll on fan's favorite college football teams. I posted a link to it back then, but I'm not sure if I could find it now. The poll was broken down by regions. IIRC, ND did not finish at #1 in any region, but they were the only school to finish in the Top 10 in every region. IIRC, their rank was as follows:

#2 in Northeast (behind Penn State).
#2 in West (behind UCLA, probably would be #2 behind USC today).
#4 in Midwest (this was the surprising ranking, I could see Michigan and Ohio State finishing ahead of ND, but was somewhat surprised that Wisconsin also finished ahead).
#6 in South (this was a surprising finish, albeit in the other direction from the midwest. I wouldn't have thought ND would rank that high in the South).

Yeah, things change, but I doubt ND's ranking would have changed substantially since then. This poll was taken at the tail end of the Davie era, so ND wasn't really winning then, either.

[SoCalTrjn]

I commend the Big 10 for not playing Neuter Lame after September and I would love to see the Pac 10 take the same route. There just isnt any benefit to playing the Irish anymore, an easy win and a hit to the SOS. NBC will not pay the Irish all that money for games in South bend vs Navy and Air Force

[Terry in Crapchester]

I commend the Big 10 for not playing Neuter Lame after September and I would love to see the Pac 10 take the same route. There just isnt any benefit to playing the Irish anymore, an easy win and a hit to the SOS. NBC will not pay the Irish all that money for games in South bend vs Navy and Air Force

Considering that the Big 10 is willing to play the MAC in October and November, this isn't about any alleged hit to SOS. Nor is it about your grandstanding to force ND into a conference, much as you would like it to be.

There's really only one relevant question here: Is the Big 10 willing to extend the same consideration to ND that it has already shown a willingness to extend to the MAC? And I'll concede that the Big 10 is within its rights to answer that question in the negative. But should they choose to do so, there should be consequences.

Those consequences should include ND severing all ties with the Big 10, or at least dropping Sparty and Purdue from the schedule on a permanent basis. The college football teams ND could adequately replace them with are a dime a dozen. Such a decision would hurt Sparty and Purdue far more than it could ever hurt ND.

Kevin White won't do that, of course. But if we had an athletic director with a backbone and a pair, he would.

[Adelpiero]

notre dames fan base goes way beyond alumni


No way OSU has more fans than notre Dame.


Notre Dame can pack any stadium in this country. Osu? seriously, i dont think i have ever seen an OSU sticker on any car in st.louis. But i know i see ND stickers on vehicles everytime im out. They were the shit for the baby boomers, and while their bandwagon has fallen over the decade or so, they still have a huge following anywhere they go.

think OSU vs New Mexico would sell out in NM? I bet ND vs New Mexico is a sell out. They virtually guarentee a sell out no matter where they go, especially in the midwest. Did OSU sell out in Columbia vs Mizzou, fuck now, i believe the crowds were in the 40-50k. IF and when Notre Dame would come, it would be a guarenteed sell out, no bones about it!


and quoting sales of gear is assanine. the raiders were the biggest sellers for a long time, why? the gangbangers loved their color and gear, every brother out there had raider gear. Did that mean they had biggest fan base/ fuck no, those kids didnt know who bo jackson was, but they knew they looked shaqp in dat grey Raider jacket!

[PSUFAN]

My thoughts on the Big Ten scheduling situation are the following...I am tired of the season ending a full two weeks before the rest of D1-A. The conference should open things up for teams to schedule more freely.

I suspect that the Big 10 wants to protect The Game, worried that any games that take place after The Game might rob it of significance. I doubt that would happen - The Game will always be huge.

I would like to see PSU play a turkey day game with Pitt yearly.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Such a decision would hurt Sparty and Purdue far more than it could ever hurt ND.

Considering MSU's overwhelming success against ND within the last decade, I would agree whole-heartedly.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Such a decision would hurt Sparty and Purdue far more than it could ever hurt ND.

Considering MSU's overwhelming success against ND within the last decade, I would agree whole-heartedly.

You mean 3-3 over the last six years? Then again, by MSU's standards, I suppose that would constitute overwhelming success.

[BlindRef]

is there any possibility that the Big Ten will allow its members to play ND after September?

Yep, that's what we need. The NCAA, The Big Ten, ESPN, ABC, NBC, and CBS need to make life easier for ND. Fuck ND! Nobody needs your asses anymore. Join a fucking conference (save the annual long winded "never gonna happen" post) or STFU!! If it's tough to schedule games against teams that happen to be in a conference...tough shit.

"The SC/ND rivalry wouldn't be what it is today... :cry:" blah, blah, blah. Times change. Everyone outside of South Bend, Indiana caught on some time ago... it was in all the papers. Michigan once had rivalries with Harvard and Univ. of Chicago, shame we didn't sell out to keep those beauties kicking. ND is a victim of their own greed, they deserve all they get. Most kids on CFB rosters next year can't remember a ND team that won a bowl game....that is how you slip into irrelevence.

Hahaha, bitter Wolverine. 1/2 a national championship in 60 years and ND is irrelevant? Irony, thy name is "skunkbear".

Michigan averages 9 win seasons, every time ND has a 9 win season some one writes a book.

Any ND fan would love to have Michigan's success over the last 20 years.

[SoCalTrjn]

I would extend more consideration to the MAC than to Notre Dame if I was the Big 10 because the MAC is a conference like the Big 10 and not a stand alone school trying to keep all the money to themselves.

[Terry in Crapchester]

I would extend more consideration to the MAC than to Notre Dame if I was the Big 10 because the MAC is a conference like the Big 10 and not a stand alone school trying to keep all the money to themselves.

Big 10 team vs. ND = national TV appearance.
Big 10 team vs. MAC team = no national TV appearance.

Cut off your nose to spite your face much?

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

You mean 3-3 over the last six years?

No, I mean the last decade. Hence my usage of the word "decade."

[WolverineSteve]

is there any possibility that the Big Ten will allow its members to play ND after September?

Yep, that's what we need. The NCAA, The Big Ten, ESPN, ABC, NBC, and CBS need to make life easier for ND. Fuck ND! Nobody needs your asses anymore. Join a fucking conference (save the annual long winded "never gonna happen" post) or STFU!! If it's tough to schedule games against teams that happen to be in a conference...tough shit.

"The SC/ND rivalry wouldn't be what it is today... :cry:" blah, blah, blah. Times change. Everyone outside of South Bend, Indiana caught on some time ago... it was in all the papers. Michigan once had rivalries with Harvard and Univ. of Chicago, shame we didn't sell out to keep those beauties kicking. ND is a victim of their own greed, they deserve all they get. Most kids on CFB rosters next year can't remember a ND team that won a bowl game....that is how you slip into irrelevence.

Hahaha, bitter Wolverine. 1/2 a national championship in 60 years and ND is irrelevant? Irony, thy name is "skunkbear".

Not bitter at all, check the all-time record.

You asked if the Big10 might allow ND on the schedule later than Sept. My point is...fuck ND. Why try to run through the meatgrinder known as the Big10 and throw in a team that may or may not be deece in the next five years or so between solid programs. Think of a three week stretch that went... PSU,ND,Wiscky. Makes no sense. The mid-conf. slate MAC team replaced the bye week which went by the wayside when the 12th game came along. In lieu of a bye week, insert MAC school bye week filler . True enough ND has been MACesque in recent seasons, but Ball St, Ohio U, EMU, are more storied creampuffs.

Why should any conference do anything to benefit ND when they scoff at all thing conference? CFB could freeze out ND anytime it wanted. ND needs CFB more than CFB needs ND. Get into the 80's.

[SoCalTrjn]

I would extend more consideration to the MAC than to Notre Dame if I was the Big 10 because the MAC is a conference like the Big 10 and not a stand alone school trying to keep all the money to themselves.

Big 10 team vs. ND = national TV appearance.
Big 10 team vs. MAC team = no national TV appearance.

Cut off your nose to spite your face much?

I dont care about national TV, Im likely going to be at the game. As for myself, I couldnt tell you a single thing that happened in this last years or any other purdue vs Neuter Lame game

[Terry in Crapchester]

Not bitter at all, check the all-time record.

Since 1978 (and given that there was a hiatus in the series from 1943 to 1978, that's a pretty fair line of demarcation as to the modern era of the series), ND leads 12-11-1. The ND-Michigan series is probably the only aspect of ND football that has been better after 1978 than before 1978.

You asked if the Big10 might allow ND on the schedule later than Sept. My point is...fuck ND. Why try to run through the meatgrinder known as the Big10 and throw in a team that may or may not be deece in the next five years or so between solid programs. Think of a three week stretch that went... PSU,ND,Wiscky. Makes no sense. The mid-conf. slate MAC team replaced the bye week which went by the wayside when the 12th game came along. In lieu of a bye week, insert MAC school bye week filler . True enough ND has been MACesque in recent seasons, but Ball St, Ohio U, EMU, are more storied creampuffs.

Fwiw, I would keep Michigan where it is, in mid-September as the 2nd or 3rd game on the schedule. That game is advantageous there to both sides. Depending on the circumstances, it can be a springboard to national championship consideration for the winner. I'd like to move either Purdue or Michigan State, if not both. If the Big Ten won't agree to do that, I think ND should drop both notwithstanding the history surrounding both series. It would be relatively easy for ND to replace those teams with comparable teams on the schedule. Sparty in particular had a history of being a late-season game for ND prior to the 1970's, anyway. I'm pretty sure that Ara's decision to "go for the tie" against Sparty would not have received the scrutiny it did if it had happened in September.

Why should any conference do anything to benefit ND when they scoff at all thing conference? CFB could freeze out ND anytime it wanted.

As long as ND has a national TV deal, that won't happen anytime soon.

ND needs CFB more than CFB needs ND. Get into the 80's.

Hmmm, since you mentioned it, a partial list of national champions in the 80's . . .

1982: Penn State (independent)
1983: Miami (independent)
1986: Penn State (independent)
1987: Miami (independent)
1988: ND (independent)
1989: Miami (independent)

Yep, you're right Steve. CFB was better in the 80's. :P

I dont care about national TV, . . .

I'll go out on a limb and venture a guess that the AD's at Purdue and Michigan State probably disagree with you on that one.

I would extend more consideration to the MAC than to Notre Dame if I was the Big 10 because the MAC is a conference like the Big 10 and not a stand alone school trying to keep all the money to themselves.

Big 10 team vs. ND = national TV appearance.
Big 10 team vs. MAC team = no national TV appearance.

Cut off your nose to spite your face much?

Big 10 team vs. ND = major TV network appearance (likely most of the nation) and relatively even split revenue in home and home series
Big 10 team vs. MAC team = BigTen network apperance (national if you have DirectTv) and grossly unfair revenue split in BigTen home game only

Big 10 team vs. ND is a national (as opposed to most of the nation) TV network appearance if ND is the home team. Against Michigan, it's likely a national TV appearance regardless of where the game is played.

And weren't you guys complaining about the BTN awhile back? Most cable providers don't carry it, at least not outside the immediate Big Ten area.

[M Club]

Fwiw, I would keep Michigan where it is, in mid-September as the 2nd or 3rd game on the schedule. That game is advantageous there to both sides. Depending on the circumstances, it can be a springboard to national championship consideration for the winner.

this illustrates the general issues people take with your stance on notre dame. the only thing the umich/nd game springs the winner into is a 2-0 record. i like the game being so early b/c it's generally the opener for one of them but not the other, and the team playing its first game takes its turn bitching about how the other broke some sort of gentlemen's agreement about not playing a warm-up beforehand.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Fwiw, I would keep Michigan where it is, in mid-September as the 2nd or 3rd game on the schedule. That game is advantageous there to both sides. Depending on the circumstances, it can be a springboard to national championship consideration for the winner.

this illustrates the general issues people take with your stance on notre dame. the only thing the umich/nd game springs the winner into is a 2-0 record.

As long as there are preseason polls, the winner of this game is gonna get some buzz. Usually one, if not both, of these teams is ranked relatively high in the preseason.

i like the game being so early b/c it's generally the opener for one of them but not the other, and the team playing its first game takes its turn bitching about how the other broke some sort of gentlemen's agreement about not playing a warm-up beforehand.

That hasn't been the case for awhile. After ND played in the '89 Kickoff Classic, Bo vowed never again to have this game as Michigan's season opener. It took ND awhile to catch on, but at this point ND will always schedule at least one game ahead of Michigan as well. Even in '04, when ND kinda got caught offguard on this point, they were able to swing a deal to move up the BYU game, not that it helped.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Fwiw, I would keep Michigan where it is, in mid-September as the 2nd or 3rd game on the schedule. That game is advantageous there to both sides. Depending on the circumstances, it can be a springboard to national championship consideration for the winner.

this illustrates the general issues people take with your stance on notre dame. the only thing the umich/nd game springs the winner into is a 2-0 record.

Note that I couched my language considerably on this point. And as long as there are preseason polls, the winner of this game is gonna get some buzz. Usually one, if not both, of these teams is ranked relatively high in the preseason.

i like the game being so early b/c it's generally the opener for one of them but not the other, and the team playing its first game takes its turn bitching about how the other broke some sort of gentlemen's agreement about not playing a warm-up beforehand.

That hasn't been the case for awhile. After ND played in the '89 Kickoff Classic, Bo vowed never again to have this game as Michigan's season opener. It took ND awhile to catch on, but at this point ND will always schedule at least one game ahead of Michigan as well. Even in '04, when ND kinda got caught offguard on this point, they were able to swing a deal to move up the BYU game, not that it helped.

[M Club]

i know it generates buzz, but i think the general consensus in the cfb world is neither of these two teams is going to be in the discussion near the end of the season. the one time in recent memory that either umich or nd used the game to catapult itself into a title run was last year. the time before was 97, and even though it was a tight game [21-14], prevailing thought was that nd wasn't very good that year and michigan should've won a lot more comfortably than they did.

i think it'd be great for tradition's sake if they were each other's opener whenever they're scheduled to play. for one thing, it saves the trouble of watching a game between two 0-2 teams. they're also two of the historical lynchpins of cfb, so it'd be more meaningful to establish the tone for the season by playing that game rather than against eastern michigan. and without a tune up game, they'd have to use their historical memory of each other to script a gameplan, which is only fitting. we all know how good weis is with schemes...

[Terry in Crapchester]

i know it generates buzz, but i think the general consensus in the cfb world is neither of these two teams is going to be in the discussion near the end of the season. the one time in recent memory that either umich or nd used the game to catapult itself into a title run was last year. the time before was 97, and even though it was a tight game [21-14], prevailing thought was that nd wasn't very good that year and michigan should've won a lot more comfortably than they did.

When ND and Michigan play, it's way too early in the season to determine whether the winner will be in the national championship discussion near the end of the season (note: that assumes that both teams go into the game undefeated. Last year was another story altogether.) As you said, Michigan made a run at a possible national championship in '06 until relatively late in the season. IIRC, ND wound up in the Top 10 after beating Michigan in '05, despite starting the preseason unranked and the EsPN "experts" predicting an 0-7 start (although they lost that Top 10 ranking the following week after losing to Sparty).

i think it'd be great for tradition's sake if they were each other's opener whenever they're scheduled to play. for one thing, it saves the trouble of watching a game between two 0-2 teams. they're also two of the historical lynchpins of cfb, so it'd be more meaningful to establish the tone for the season by playing that game rather than against eastern michigan. and without a tune up game, they'd have to use their historical memory of each other to script a gameplan, which is only fitting. we all know how good weis is with schemes...

There was some tradition with respect to this being the opener for both schools, although not as much as you might think (only 35 meetings in a series that dates back to 1887 out front told me so). In any event, that's a tradition that has gone by the wayside, and which likely will never return. Part of that is the concerns on both sides over the other side having violated the "gentleman's agreement." But part of that also is the realities of the BCS, and the fact that teams do schedule to make the BCS. Check out the opening week schedule. Most years, you'll see that the overwhelming majority of games look to be laughers, at least on paper.

Now, going back to this . . .

Why should any conference do anything to benefit ND when they scoff at all thing conference?

Steve, if you really believe that, you need to brush up on your history. ND tried to join the forerunner of the Big Ten twice in the early 20th century, only to be rebuffed both times, due in large part to the fact that the original Michigan Man, Fielding H. Yost, was an anti-Catholic bigot. Now, I'm not saying that the Big Ten wasn't within its rights in rejecting ND, but there are consequences to that. One of those consequences is that, if the Big Ten says "jump" to ND today, it shouldn't be surprised that ND's response is not "how high?" but rather, "fuck off." Besides, ND actually helped Sparty join the Big Ten. Tell me you knew.

[WolverineSteve]

ND actually helped Sparty join the Big Ten.

Now I might spew some more ND hate in this thread.

He said it like it was a good thing. Sombitch!! :x

[Terry in Crapchester]

Let's go back to this point . . .

Big 10 team vs. ND = major TV network appearance (likely most of the nation) and relatively even split revenue in home and home series
Big 10 team vs. MAC team = BigTen network apperance (national if you have DirectTv) and grossly unfair revenue split in BigTen home game only

As I understand it, Purdue charges a surcharge for tickets to the ND game (the only game for which they do so, even including the Big Ten games). And that game is a sellout, whereas they usually wind up about 20,000 short of a sellout if it's an OOC matchup vs. a MAC team.

So let's look at the revenue from ticket sales

Vs. ND: Once every two years (70,000 tickets x $70/seat) = $4.9 million
Vs. typical MAC opponent: (50,000 tickets x $50/seat) = $2.5 million

What's more, they can tie another game, say against Ball State, to the ND game. Want tickets to the ND game? Then you'll have to buy tickets to Ball State as well. Another 20,000 tickets sold vs. Ball State

20,000 tickets x $50/seat = $1 million

So the difference in ticket revenue, based on ND being on the schedule, is $4.9 million - $2.5 million + $1 million = $3.4 million over two years. Yeah, they can offset this by scheduling two different one-off MAC opponents and playing both at home. But you still have a $900,000 shortfall over two years.

That's on top, of course, of the considerably lesser TV exposure they get if they're dropped from ND's schedule.

So as to Steve's point about why the Big 10 should help ND, the answer is quite simple: because the Big Ten is supposed to look out for all of its members, not just Michigan and tOSU. Purdue and Sparty get hurt, rather obviously, if they're dropped from ND's schedule. You haven't had to deal with this situation yet, of course, but that's only because our AD doesn't have the balls to make such a threat. Of course, White won't be the AD at ND forever, and when he is replaced eventually, there's at least a 99% chance that the next AD will have considerably more balls.

I suppose you could counter that Michigan could threaten to end its series with ND if ND pulls the plug on the series with either Sparty or Purdue, but then again, Michigan benefits from the ND series as well.

Even the "meatgrinder" argument doesn't work quite as well, when you consider that: (a) the Big Ten moved up the start of its conference schedule last year; (b) the Big Ten also moved the conclusion of the conference season back to Thanksgiving weekend; (c) the Big Ten doesn't play a full round-robin; and (d) the results of (a) and (b) mean that teams now should have ten weeks to fit in eight conference games, one OOC game and a bye week. While it's possible for either Sparty or Purdue to draw a schedule that includes tOSU, Michigan, Wisconsin, Penn State and Notre Dame, the likelihood of either team drawing such a murderer's row over five consecutive weeks is rare indeed (I suspect ND might even be willing to move its game to avoid that situation). A little foresight with respect to scheduling, i.e., make sure that neither Sparty nor Purdue has the bye in the first week of conference play, would go a long way.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Shaddup, chumps. MSU is good for the Big Ten in both football and basketball. Not every team can say that.

[Goober McTuber]

Let's go back to this point . . .

Big 10 team vs. ND = major TV network appearance (likely most of the nation) and relatively even split revenue in home and home series
Big 10 team vs. MAC team = BigTen network apperance (national if you have DirectTv) and grossly unfair revenue split in BigTen home game only

As I understand it, Purdue charges a surcharge for tickets to the ND game (the only game for which they do so, even including the Big Ten games). And that game is a sellout, whereas they usually wind up about 20,000 short of a sellout if it's an OOC matchup vs. a MAC team.

So let's look at the revenue from ticket sales

Vs. ND: Once every two years (70,000 tickets x $70/seat) = $4.9 million
Vs. typical MAC opponent: (50,000 tickets x $50/seat) = $2.5 million

What's more, they can tie another game, say against Ball State, to the ND game. Want tickets to the ND game? Then you'll have to buy tickets to Ball State as well. Another 20,000 tickets sold vs. Ball State

20,000 tickets x $50/seat = $1 million

So the difference in ticket revenue, based on ND being on the schedule, is $4.9 million - $2.5 million + $1 million = $3.4 million over two years. Yeah, they can offset this by scheduling two different one-off MAC opponents and playing both at home. But you still have a $900,000 shortfall over two years.

Not sure if I agree with your math here.

Playing Notre Dame gets them $4.9 million every two years.

Playing a MAC team gets them $2.5 million every year, or $5 million over two years. An advantage of $100,000, plus concession sales for 100,000 people vs. 70,000.

[WolverineSteve]

First off, I'm all in favor of continuing the series between UM and ND. I've always enjoyed the game (fuck Rocket). I may have mentioned it in here, but for sure my ND friend and I have always thought that UM/ND should be the kickoff game to every season. It belongs at the front of the schedule and not in the middle of the conference schedule. I don't like the non-con games at all once conference play begins, but that has been a product of eliminating the bye week and adding a 12th regular season game. I would think that once it sorts itself out all non-conference games would be played before the Big 10 season begins.




As for Sparty, hell UM can't say it's good for the Big10 in football and hoops .

[Terry in Crapchester]

Let's go back to this point . . .

Big 10 team vs. ND = major TV network appearance (likely most of the nation) and relatively even split revenue in home and home series
Big 10 team vs. MAC team = BigTen network apperance (national if you have DirectTv) and grossly unfair revenue split in BigTen home game only

As I understand it, Purdue charges a surcharge for tickets to the ND game (the only game for which they do so, even including the Big Ten games). And that game is a sellout, whereas they usually wind up about 20,000 short of a sellout if it's an OOC matchup vs. a MAC team.

So let's look at the revenue from ticket sales

Vs. ND: Once every two years (70,000 tickets x $70/seat) = $4.9 million
Vs. typical MAC opponent: (50,000 tickets x $50/seat) = $2.5 million

What's more, they can tie another game, say against Ball State, to the ND game. Want tickets to the ND game? Then you'll have to buy tickets to Ball State as well. Another 20,000 tickets sold vs. Ball State

20,000 tickets x $50/seat = $1 million

So the difference in ticket revenue, based on ND being on the schedule, is $4.9 million - $2.5 million + $1 million = $3.4 million over two years. Yeah, they can offset this by scheduling two different one-off MAC opponents and playing both at home. But you still have a $900,000 shortfall over two years.

That's on top, of course, of the considerably lesser TV exposure they get if they're dropped from ND's schedule.

So as to Steve's point about why the Big 10 should help ND, the answer is quite simple: because the Big Ten is supposed to look out for all of its members, not just Michigan and tOSU. Purdue and Sparty get hurt, rather obviously, if they're dropped from ND's schedule. You haven't had to deal with this situation yet, of course, but that's only because our AD doesn't have the balls to make such a threat. Of course, White won't be the AD at ND forever, and when he is replaced eventually, there's at least a 99% chance that the next AD will have considerably more balls.

I suppose you could counter that Michigan could threaten to end its series with ND if ND pulls the plug on the series with either Sparty or Purdue, but then again, Michigan benefits from the ND series as well.

Even the "meatgrinder" argument doesn't work quite as well, when you consider that: (a) the Big Ten moved up the start of its conference schedule last year; (b) the Big Ten also moved the conclusion of the conference season back to Thanksgiving weekend; (c) the Big Ten doesn't play a full round-robin; and (d) the results of (a) and (b) mean that teams now should have ten weeks to fit in eight conference games, one OOC game and a bye week. While it's possible for either Sparty or Purdue to draw a schedule that includes tOSU, Michigan, Wisconsin, Penn State and Notre Dame, the likelihood of either team drawing such a murderer's row over five consecutive weeks is rare indeed (I suspect ND might even be willing to move its game to avoid that situation). A little foresight with respect to scheduling, i.e., make sure that neither Sparty nor Purdue has the bye in the first week of conference play, would go a long way.

You are looking at this the wrong way. Gate revenue is only part of the picture. The BigTen wants to protect its teams during the conference season for a possible BCS bowl, which is giant money to the conference. Playing ND does nothing for the BigTen once the conference schedule starts, except put the BigTen teams at risk of losing a game to an OOC opponent that will blast them out of the BCS picture. Losing to ND in game 1 or 2 or 3 isn't such a big deal, if you can rip off several wins in a row during conference play. But lose to ND during the conference schedule, and you are BCS toast.

Fwiw, as I've said before, I think ND should continue to play Michigan early on in the season. I would think that ND could be satisfied by playing either Purdue or Michigan State in September, and the other later in the season, maybe even rotate those games.

Purdue and Michigan State are rarely in the BCS picture. Michigan State has not been to a BCS bowl since the inception of the BCS; IIRC, their last Rose Bowl appearance was in '88. Purdue has been to one BCS bowl since the BCS began. That was in 2000, when Purdue received the Big Ten's automatic bid via the conference tiebreaker procedure. Purdue was unranked in the final BCS standings that year (at the time only the Top 15 were ranked in the BCS standings), so obviously that was a down year for the Big Ten.

Where it could hurt Purdue or Michigan State would be with respect to a lesser Big 10 bowl. Purdue or Michigan State might have to play ND in their OOC game down the stretch, whereas, say, Iowa would have to play Northern Illinois. Purdue or Michigan State might end up on the short end of the stick in that regard. But if the game were not played at the very end of the season, but say, mid-to-late October, a loss against ND might not be the backbreaker you consider it to be. As long as Purdue or Michigan State wins seven games, they'll be in a bowl game somewhere. And they have a shot at a bowl game with six wins.

What is wrong with the current arrangement? ND gets three BigTen teams at the beginning of the season, a game against each of the service academies, a game against BC and a game against USC. Throw in a couple games against BYU, UCLA and you're good to go.

Coupla points.

First, the problem with playing three Big Ten schools in September is that it leaves us with absolutely no flexibility whatsoever when it comes to scheduling for that month. Because of various allegations on both sides, the "gentlemen's agreement" is irretrievably broken, and ND-Michigan will never again be the season opener for either school. That means finding another team to be the season opener, and since neither Purdue nor Michigan State wants ND for its season opener, that means a team outside the Big Ten, and a lesser power than Michigan.

If the ND homer boards are to be believed, within the past year both Alabama and Georgia contacted ND for a home-and-home, but no deal got done. Of course, given the reluctance of the SEC teams to board an airplane for a game, it's possible that the AD's at those schools were aware of ND's September logjam and told ND they only had open dates in September. That way they could go to their critics and say, "We tried to get ND on the schedule, but they didn't have any open dates that fit our schedule." In any event, just one open September date a year would make it possible for us to respond under those circumstances.

Second, you have a misperception about our schedule. We don't play all three service academies every year. We did in '06, but Army was added as the 12th game when the NCAA approved same on short notice (yeah, we added a creampuff, but at least it was a 1-A team with whom we have some history). Other than that, we've played all three service academies in the same season only once since I graduated (that was in '95, I graduated in '86). We play Navy every year, I don't see that changing unless Navy wants it to change. Air Force once was a more or less annual matchup, but that ended in the mid-90's, and we played them only twice between '97 and '05 inclusive. Army has become a relatively rare opponent, and in fact you have to go back to the 1940's (when Army was still a national power) for the last time we played them in more than two consecutive seasons. The BC series is ending soon, btw, although I've heard conflicting reports on exactly when that'll happen -- anywhere from after next season until after the '13 season. We're also slated to play three Big East teams annually beginning in '10 -- Pitt will be an annual, it looks like UConn could be an annual (Rutgers was the first choice, talks with Rutgers apparently broke down when they refused to play their "home" games in the series at the Meadowlands), and the third game is slated to be rotated between the remaining schools.

[Terry in Crapchester]

That seems like a decent schedule, Terry. I don't think the BigTen will move ND into the middle of the conference without getting a huge paycheck. I just don't see it happening.

I love college football. I think it is the best sport, period. The best players rarely switch teams like the pros, so they are your guys for life. I like that.

I also like the traditions that conferences create, but only to a point. Conferences are good in that they limit travel and allows similar institutions to align themselves and form rivalries. They also make the games mean something. But I think there is another system that could be used.

It is called "promotion and relegation" and is used throughout the world to ensure that the best play against the best. Here is a better explanation than I can provide:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promotion_and_relegation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I would like to see this type of system be implemented by the NCAA. Instead of 128 D1 teams, you'd have 2 divisions of 64 teams. The best 64 would be in the Championship League and the next 64 would be in the Tier II League. The teams in the Championship League would get seeded in a 64-team single elimination tournament based on some sort of BCS-type ranking system. We'd crown a champion every year.

At the end of the year, 16 teams from the Championship League would move down into the Tier II league for the next year, and 16 teams from the Tier II League would move up into the Championship League for the next year. That would be good.

And you could make the schedules reflect traditional rivalries and conference foes, but every game would mean something no matter who you played. Teams would know they are going to be in the tournament, so they would schedule tougher games to get themselves prepared. It would be great.

Interesting idea, and you're not the first to propose something similar to this (in fact, I think Schmick's first-ever post on these boards was to suggest something similar). A few problems with this proposal, though.

First, what is the criteria for determining which teams are in which divisions. Performance? If so, you'll have to go to computer rankings for that, and strength of schedule will be an issue. Attendance? Believe it or not, that was the suggested criteria at a website that called itself projectplayoff.com. I suppose it has the advantage, at least, of being a completely objective criterion.

Second, a 25% annual turnover is just too high, imho. In all likelihood, it would result in some undeserving teams being demoted and promoted each year. It may also result in a substantial number of teams yo-yoing back and forth between the two divisions from one year to the next. And certainly, it could disrupt much of the tradition associated with college football.

And revisiting this point one last time . . .

[ND scoffs] at all things conference . . .

Under the heading of learning something new every day, I recently found out that ND apparently tried to form a new conference in 1959. The proposed members, in addition to ND, would have been the three service academies, Penn State, Pitt, Syracuse, USC and UCLA. It was the service academies that put the kibosh on it.

Interesting topic, although the conference obviously would never have worked for a number of reasons, travel requirements for non-revenue sports being most obvious. But the membership of the proposed conference should answer some of the questions for those who wonder why ND is so reluctant to join a conference.

The Airplane Conference