Time for a new rig.

[War Wagon]

wags,
it will still be running, but will all the switches still work? how many trim pieces will come loose? these stupid little things are where the jap still kick our ass.

Everything works as well today as the day I bought it. No trim is coming loose and there's zero rust or body damage other than a few hail dings.

btw, what do you think you could get for it today? I'd guess that with those miles, you'd do well to get 1000 bucks. maybe a bit more if it's a nice 1 owner.

Who cares?

A car isn't an investment or a status symbol to me, it's a tool to be used to get from point A to point B. Like I said, it's been paid off for 3 years now. Any vehicle that outlives the term of loan (which was 4 years on this car) w/o needing any major repairs is a win/win situation as far as I'm concerned.

To be honest, there haven't been many cars I've owned that I could say that about. To your point that American cars don't last 10 years, I'd say you're wrong. I'd also say that American quality has caught up with the Japs, somewhere about 8 years ago as for the Lumina.

I'll drive this baby until the wheels fall, only changing the oil at regular intervals. No car payment, liability insurance only, and not much in the way of personal property taxes. Sweet!

[socal]

I'll be thinking about you the next time I downshift my Z06 and violently cut off yet another minivan/bmw/mercedes/honda dumbfuck going 57 in the fast lane.

Leave me out of your dome and your homoerotic fantasies. BTW the only downshifting you'll be experiencing will occur druing each stop on public transit as you slough across town to your next deep tissue massage therapy session at Motel 6.

[smackaholic]

wags,
it will still be running, but will all the switches still work? how many trim pieces will come loose? these stupid little things are where the jap still kick our ass.

Everything works as well today as the day I bought it. No trim is coming loose and there's zero rust or body damage other than a few hail dings.

btw, what do you think you could get for it today? I'd guess that with those miles, you'd do well to get 1000 bucks. maybe a bit more if it's a nice 1 owner.

Who cares?

A car isn't an investment or a status symbol to me, it's a tool to be used to get from point A to point B. Like I said, it's been paid off for 3 years now. Any vehicle that outlives the term of loan (which was 4 years on this car) w/o needing any major repairs is a win/win situation as far as I'm concerned.

To be honest, there haven't been many cars I've owned that I could say that about. To your point that American cars don't last 10 years, I'd say you're wrong. I'd also say that American quality has caught up with the Japs, somewhere about 8 years ago as for the Lumina.

I'll drive this baby until the wheels fall, only changing the oil at regular intervals. No car payment, liability insurance only, and not much in the way of personal property taxes. Sweet!

rack you and your good fortune with the chevy. I hope it is a sign of what is to come. maybe I'll take a look at some cream puff luminas out there.

[KC Scott]

Pretty much ends this discussion

You're right-it does.


But only because you proved my point thoroughly. So, out of all the rental cars you've driven (which supposedly is my entire list save for the baddest mofo :bigshocker: ), the avalon is the only example you could think of that is better.

We don't rent Vettes.
Sin, Hertz, Avis & National

And if by better you mean mean better than what I was looking for in a car, youre right.

I was looking for a spacious interior that could fit my 3 sons in the back seat, has good interior & exterior styling (IMHO), dependable and ,since cars are depreciable assets, something would hold some value when it hits 100K in 6 yrs.

This discussion was You dins and Paul whaling on about how great US made cars are - yet you chose to ignore the resale drop of a Luxury Model US car (The Caddy CTS) vs. a Jap Production model vehicle.

As in most things - $$$ are the final scoreboard and in this case, the Avalon beat the Caddy CTS

[RevLimiter]

As in most things - $$$ are the final scoreboard and in this case, the Avalon beat the Caddy CTS

Not to me- I could care less. I'd take the Caddy CTS over the flange-face mobile every day of the week. You know why.

[Kierland]

8 pages of which country makes the 3rd and 4th best cars? Nice!

Sin,
Germany and Sweden

[smackaholic]

Yeah, them krauts and swedes are just steamrolling the american market.

The Germans do make the best rigs on the planet, assuming you have throw away money like hairgel boy. The swedes make pretty good stuff too, but, not in the same league as the gerries or the japs for that matter.

[smackaholic]

I doubt the frenchies make anything in your size. If you are sporting euro panties, I'd guess polish, maybe german.

[Goober McTuber]

I suppose all the awards that the Mustang, 'Vette, F-series ford trucks, Chevy Malibu, Lincoln MKX, MKZ, Navigator (which were awarded "Interiors of the Year" in their respective categories at the 8th annual Automotive "Interior of the Year" awards conducted by Ward's Auto World magazine) the Towncar, and Cadillac STS/CTS garnered dont count, huh?

Not looking to get into a pissing match over this, but I was looking at the autointeriors website :

http://autointeriors.com/autointeriors0 ... 14%3a47+AM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the cars categories, Ward’s editors voted the Honda Fit the best interior in Economy-Priced Cars; they also chose the Saturn Aura as best in Popular-Priced Cars; and the Volvo S80 as having the best interior in Premium-Priced Car category.

In light trucks, the Ward’s judges selected the Honda CR-V as the winner in Popular-Priced CUV category; they agreed that the Cadillac SRX had the best interior in Premium-Priced CUV category; they also chose the Chevy Silverado as tops in Popular-Priced Trucks; and they selected the Lincoln Navigator as having the best interior in Premium-Priced Trucks.

Looks like a cross-section of foreign and domestic, with no mention of Mustang, 'Vette, F-series ford trucks or Chevy Malibu. But special props to Chrysler. The Sebring earned the Best Cup Holder award.

[RevLimiter]

Raydumb,

Yeah, you got me there with that Vette dash photo. I can't believe Chevy found one where the pieces stayed together long enough to snap that shot!

This is like talking to a two year old. How hard is this to understand? That dash will have gaps and the glove box door hangin' open and switches non-functional in about two years. That's how they build 'em. I was shocked at how sloppy the Vetter interior was when I first got in one. This was a few years back, but Vettes always cost a lotta bucks, see? And when you pay a lotta bucks, it'd be nice if the carpet sections fit properly and the dash panels didn't have 1/2 inch gaps, etc.

Maybe it's just me. I like to think a car is put together where it might stay together a while. Rattles and crappy switches, controls, etc. don't impress me. And that's what you'll have ... even with that brand new Vette in a couple years (if it makes it that long).

Jesus FUCKING Christ....can you make up any more bold-faced LIES? Corvette interiors DO NOT fall apart....PERIOD! I've driven and raced Corvettes for the better part of 20 years and I have YET to see one where the dash "fell apart" and the various switches became "non-functional". Even the 84-96 Corvettes had fairly cheesy-looking instrument panels yet they always did their job for me. The 97-08 Corvette interiors are among the best-fitting and most functional (LOVE the HUD in them- every car/truck worth a shit should have one) and are considered one of the best in ANY car or truck. Seriously Sammy, the hating needs to stop.

I drive all different brands of cars and trucks, sometimes 4-5 days a week and it's done nothing but reinforce my disdain for American products. The other day I transported a Ford F-250. Beautiful truck. 600 miles on it. The dash and door panels are made of the shittiest, cheapest crap I've ever seen on a vehicle. Total trash. How would you like paying that huge chunk o' cash for something like that? Brand new, it looks like crap. Think how nice it'll be in a few years. Oh, that's right. You don't care about getting your money's worth...you just want to buy American. Please do.

Stripped-down work trucks typically do have cheap door panels. Tell me you knew.

I can find you a lower end Honda or Toyota any day with a far nicer (better materials and workmanship) interior than you can find on an upper end Ford or Chevy. And if we compared those same two cars five years from now, you'd be embarrassed to even show up.

BULLSHIT- my 1992 F150 Supercab 4x4 with 268K miles on it was built like a fucking ROCK and unlike a comparable Jap truck (wait, there ARE no comparable Jap trucks since they just started building full-size trucks a couple of years ago) it did RUST itself to death.

'nuff said. This is silly. Just as I was a born and bred Ford guy when I was younger and no one could convince me Chevy made anything worth a shit, there are those who love American products and will defend them to the death. That's cool. Good for you.

But facts are facts. And if y'all can't see the difference in the vehicles, so be it. Buy the shit cars. Ain't hurtin' me.

Hey, keep sending your hard-earned money right to Japan....

[Dinsdale]

But the switches are better.

But the switches are better.

Just push a switch, and you'll see.


Funny you mention that, Mr I can JUdge Car Quality By Puching a Switch.

For 8.5 fucking years, I fixed automotive electrics. Did mechanical repairs at a different place away from afrementioned 40+ hours of fixing electric shit. I'm glad I don't do that anymore.

But just last week, I got an emergency call from an old friend who had rolled down his window at a drive-through, then failed to roll back up on a particularly rainy night. The window switch had failed. I can't tell you the last time I'd seen a window switch completely fail. No garage, got out in the rain, yanked the door skin, and fashioned a switch out of two paper clips that worked well enough to get the window back up.



And TAKE A MASSIVE FUCKING GUESS WHAT COUNTRY MADE THAT CAR, SAM?



Hmmm.... you say one thing, years of 40+hours a week of professional experience tells me something else.... damn, caught in another one of these "who to believe" conundrums.

[Dog]

The only window switch I've ever had to replace, and this is after owning five Toyotas, was the one on my Chevrolet conversion van.

Granted, I don't drive a car much past 70,000 miles or so. So I've never had any problems with any of my Toyotas, but granted, I don't put many miles on a vehicle.

[Goober McTuber]

This is going waaaaaay back, but my dad had a Cordoba (pretty design). The dash switches on it felt like they were going to break off in your hand every time you touched them. Nothing worked on that car. Engine was a mess, electrics were a disaster, body was pitiful. But it was nice to look at. '76 model. Gave it to my brother in 1996. It had 16,000 miles on it! He's got the engine purring.

Did it have the rich, Corinthian leather?

[Dinsdale]

Gee Sam, thanks.

Could you tell me more about these window switches you speak of?

No, really.


Also, it would be helpful if you could give an outline of allowable voltage-drop readings to determine whether the fault lies in the switch, the motor itself, or the associated wiring.

I mean, since you wanna teach me all about these window-switch thingies, I'm all ears.


:dislocatedaneyeballrollingthemsohard:

[Goober McTuber]

dislocatedaneyeball

I resemble that remark.

Sincerely,

Atomic Pantload

[War Wagon]

It was a really beautiful car.

I owned a 1976 Cordoba, the first and last Chrysler product I'll ever own. Thing rode and drove like an M-1 Abrams tank.

As for "beauty", well it did have that remarkable front grill that looked like a shark, which was pretty cool. Other than that, I can't think of one redeeming feature of that car. The 400 cu. engine sucked gas like there was no tomorrow.

The mid 70's were a very bad time for American auto makers.

[RumpleForeskin]

The mid 70's were a very bad time for American auto makers.

Don't forget the late 70's and almost all of the 80's too.

[War Wagon]

The mid 70's were a very bad time for American auto makers.

Don't forget the late 70's and almost all of the 80's too.

Oh, I haven't.

But the mainstream car models from 1972 thru 1978 were particularly fucked up. All the manufacturers seemed to be competing to see who could design and build the biggest, heaviest, most obnoxious gas hog super dreadnaughts to plunder and defile the planet with. Utter pieces of shit, most all of them.

Sure, there were exceptions. But for the most part those years ushered in Toyota and Datsun who proceeded to systematically kick Detroit's ass for the next 20 years. The oil embargo and blocks long gas lines didn't help matters much either.

[Dinsdale]

There's a switch that I've yet to mention in this Ranger that is fucked. The switch in the transfer case {Borg-Warner, I believe}that allows the 4x4 to work. I've read that the brushes on this switch foul up on just about every single Ranger 4x4.

Fairly common problem. Usually makes a faint "clunk" or some similar noise when you hit the button on the dash, but doesn't pop into 4WD. Might even hear a relay click in the box of electrical goodies behind the seat.


OK, point by point...

Switches don't have brushes. Electric motors do.

Which is most likely your problem (but I'll never offer a diagnosis of a vehicle I can't see). Instead of the old fashioned second shifter, the switching from 2 to 4 wheel drive is done via an electric motor.


There is no such "switch inside the transfer case." It's a small electric motor, and it's on the outside of the transfer case, at the rear on the driver's (left) side.

Very simple fix, and it costs nothing but a little time. There's 2 (or 4?) bolts that hold that motor to the case. If you remove those, the motor comes off. Note the alignment of the motor and cam that does the shifting -- it's important to have it properly aligned upon reassembly (sin, Marcus Allen).

There should be two relatively long bolts going through the length of the motor housing. Remove them. You can then pull the barrel of the motor away from the guts. At the back of the shaft in the motor, you'll see a cylindrical collection of copper contacts, which make contact with the brushes in the motor when assembled. This part of an electric motor is known as the "commutator." What happens in this case, and with every other brushed DC motor ever made (even those made in Japan), is that the copper contacts of the commutator become corroded. Take a pencil eraser or very very fine sandpaper and clean the copper strips. Then, take a dull knife or something similar, and clean all of the dirt and shavings from the grooves between the copper strips -- GENTLY.


Then, find a friend or someone to help you get the armature back into the brushes... aggrivating job for the inexperienced. 4 hands helps sometimes.

There ya go. 4WD shifter fixed. If you need to sandbag until spring, have someone keep poking the button on the dash while VERY gently tapping the motor housing... should get the motor to work at least once.


I sure am glad I have Sam around to teach me about Ford Rangers and their electrics and stuff. I learned that from him.

[smackaholic]

what you were doing a few posts back was pooh-poohing the importance of shiftgear.

how many switches/controls on your buddy's SHO still work. Here is a list of the ones that didn't on mine.
Power seat switches. Fortunately the fukking thing was in an acceptable positoin when I bought it, so I never fukked with it.
Rear passenger window switch/motor
climate control switches were soft button variety. they still functioned, but, you couldn't read any of them. this is pretty much universal on all SHO climate control systems until, I think 95, when they went to hard buttons.
heater blower speed control module. Some mensa mounted the module inside the heater plumbing, supposedly to keep it cool because of the constant airflow. Well, when the A C is used, it becomes a humidifier and rusts the components. This happens to basically every sho in existence. Maybe if you live in phoenix it isn't a problem.
there are probably a few others I forgot. funny thing was my taurus wagon had zero problems in this area and it was older.

[Dinsdale]

how many switches/controls on your buddy's SHO still work.

Pretty sure all of them still do. The outside thermometer comes and goes though.

[smackaholic]

Wow. My outside thermometer actually worked, so I could see that it was 12 degrees outside as I sat there shivering because the blower motor didn't work. I would have gladly traded the two functions.

You said he had a 94? the EATC buttons might have been fixed on that one. Maybe the blower control module as well. Or maybe he had already had it fixed.

I really liked that car, but, it had so many stupid little things wrong with it.

[Dinsdale]

Sam, I was still waiting on those diagnostic procedures you were going to help me with... since you're the switch-master and stuff.

[Dinsdale]

One doesn't have to be a master mechanic or an automotive electrics expert to know when shit is cheap and shoddy.

And you've missed the point once again --

A person with years of experience in the field has forgotten more about those switches and gizmos and their quality and reliability than you'll know if you live to be 500.


Light coming on yet?

But they are still years behind the Japs in terms of quality.

I've given up on asking for any substantiated proof of this, or any other hard figures to support this position. In the last ten tries, all we've gotten is "push a switch. I drive lots of cars. You're crazy."

I give. Congrats -- you just pouted and stomped your feet and got the adults to tune out... props, kid.


And I don't agree that Americans are lazy as far as manufacturing goes. Quite the opposite, in fact. We're just stupid, is all -- well, stupid at certain times. Like when we step into that voting booth and vote for people who are indebted to corporate fatcats who couldn't care less if this country goes down the shitter, as long as they have a golden fiddle to play while it burns. And in this age a free trade agreements (and the traitor Bush is proposing more), it will continue to get worse.

But I resent you blaming the American Worker for this problem. I resent that very much. Put the blame where it belongs -- on the American Voter.


Wakey Wake, tards.

[War Wagon]

H-D is about 40 years behiond in some tech areas.

Baloney.

You obviously don't know the first thing about Harley Davidson.

You're just pulling shit out your ass now. Wait, my bad... you've been pulling shit out your ass this entire thread.

You got stock in Yamaha?

[Dinsdale]

Whitey, you really ain't too bright. At all.

But it was awfully nice of Sam to come along and take some of the heat off you.


So, Sam -- you do all those valve adjustments and carb/injection service and all that on your Ricer, right?


Because I can do that shit on a Harley in minutes.


Light coming on yet, dumbfuck?

[War Wagon]

You build with cheap components, they break.

The dash switches on it felt like they were going to break off in your hand every time you touched them. Nothing worked on that car.

Sam's engineering job at American Motors Corp, circa 1979

Sam, did you design the Pacer?

Kenny Wayne Sheppard is the bomb, btw.

[Cuda]

Pacer?

I recall my folks having both a '76 Pacer, AND a 77 Cordoba. Might even have been at the same time- or come to think of it... they might have traded the Pacer in for the Cordoba. The Pacer was truly a shitbox in every meaning of the word. Shoddy & underpowered & noisy; cold in the winter & roasting in the summer even though it has A/C (which sapped the anemic straight-6 so much it would barely move with the A/C running) It also got horrible gas mileage.

The Cordoba, on the other hand had loads of power; it just had this bad habit of the engine quitting on you in the middle of a left turn, especially when there was oncoming traffic. Didn't have those Rich, Corinthian Leather seats, but crushed blue velvet like material that would be the envy of every negro in town even today. They traded this car in for a 1981 Olds Omega- which was by far the biggest shitbox ever built (including Dad's 87 Buick Regal that went thru 5 transmissions in 2 years). It was somewhat nicer than the Pacer (you could run the A/C if absolutely necessary), but the heater smelled like the ductwork had spent some time in Blondiebabe's mancanyon and the smell never went away. The engine didn't die in a turn, but if you hit the brakes too hard, the brake pedal would stop short and the car wouldn't even slow down.

Great Union Workmanship there!

[Goober McTuber]

Another vote for foreign:

Foreign cars dominated the “Best of the Best” list, while many American-made autos earned the dubious honor of being on the “Worst of the Worst” list.

Included in the “Best of the Best” list are the Acura Integra, BMW M3, Honda CR-V, Lexus ES, Lincoln Continental, Mazda 3, Nissan Ultima, Porsche 911, Subaru Baja, and the Toyota 4Runner.

Vehicles that had several years of poor reliability according to surveys made the “Worst of the Worst” list. The Buick Terraza, Chevrolet Blazer, Dodge Grand, GMC Jimmy, Jeep Grand Cherokee, Lincoln Aviator, Mercedes Benz SL, Nissan Titan, Pontiac G6 and (sorry, Kendra) the Volkswagen Jetta all made the list.

http://www.channel3000.com/automotive/1 ... etail.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RevLimiter]

Another vote for foreign:

Foreign cars dominated the “Best of the Best” list, while many American-made autos earned the dubious honor of being on the “Worst of the Worst” list.

Included in the “Best of the Best” list are the Acura Integra, BMW M3, Honda CR-V, Lexus ES, Lincoln Continental, Mazda 3, Nissan Ultima, Porsche 911, Subaru Baja, and the Toyota 4Runner.

Vehicles that had several years of poor reliability according to surveys made the “Worst of the Worst” list. The Buick Terraza, Chevrolet Blazer, Dodge Grand, GMC Jimmy, Jeep Grand Cherokee, Lincoln Aviator, Mercedes Benz SL, Nissan Titan, Pontiac G6 and (sorry, Kendra) the Volkswagen Jetta all made the list.

http://www.channel3000.com/automotive/1 ... etail.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And I STILL wouldn't own any of those foreign POS.

[Jeff in SD]

Yes cause worst of the worst pretty much goes with everything you are as a poster, as the city you live in, and as you in whole as a human being.

So you might as well stay away from the foreign.

[RevLimiter]

Go fuck yourself newbie....your take means absolutely DICK.

[OCmike]

Go fuck yourself newbie....your take means absolutely DICK.

Actually, I'd respect the opinion of a newcomer who uses his spare time usefully, more than I would some jackass who's been posting on interweb UBB's for 8 years, you fucking loser!...er, wait...nevermind. Crap, oot.

[Jeff in SD]

Go fuck yourself newbie....your take means absolutely DICK.

as opposed to the last time you were able to see your dick. Your logic is foreign cars are said to be better than American, so I'm buying American.

Did you watch that episode of Reno 911 where Jr. and Carlos help build a fence on the border then realize they are on the Mexico side. Figure that's all I really need to say.

[RevLimiter]

And I STILL wouldn't own any of those foreign POS.

Of course you wouldn't Rev. You want to get jackshit for your hard-earned money, don't you?

Nope- all 4 of my American-made cars and trucks run like a top and NEVER have significant problems, Sammy. And they're ALL V8-powered, too.

I'll bet you own a Harley.

Again, nope....for the following reasons:

1. I already have a race car- two motorized hobbies can be quite expensive on one's budget.
2. No room in the RevLimiter Taj Mahal errrr garage for one.
3. I'm just not a bike person- fucking idiot drivers just don't see people that ride motorcycles until it's too late in a lot of cases, and I almost found that out the hard way when I took my neighbor's '03 100th Anniv. V-Rod for a spin around the block a couple of years ago.

[Jeff in SD]

Good news, Paul bought his new rig today......

[OCmike]

Excuse me if I go KCScott on this issue, but this past weekend I rented a car from National while in TX. Since they were out of the cheap-ass economy car that I rented from Hotwire (war that site) for $10/day, they upgraded me to mid-size for free. Since they were out of regular mid-size cars, I got to grab a mid-size from the "Emerald Club" lot, which ended up being a fully-loaded 2007 Chevy Impala.

The interior was nice, but as with all GM cars/sedans, the acceleration was shitty, the brakes gave you nothing for the first inch and then basically locked up after that. This thing had only 17,000 miles on it, yet it made a clunking sound any time I made a sharp turn even at low speeds. At highway speeds, you could feel the vibrations from the front wheels all the way up the steering column, especially if you hit any kind of pothole, where one front wheel would be slightly off from the other. All this on a vehicle with 17,000-freaking miles.

Yeah, America cranks out some quality passenger cars. at all of the dopes who buy American thinking they're supporting some sort of principle. You're as bad as all of the black voters who vote Democrat thinking that Dems give a shit about them any more than the GOP does.

Here's a hint: If they already know they're getting your vote/business because you have some misplaced loyalty, what's the point in them catering to your needs in any way? To put it another way, if they knew that you were going to buy the best product on the market, regardless of the country of origin, they'd be cranking out a hell of a lot better quality than they are now. Why try harder when you schmucks accept mediocrity?

[Screw_Michigan]

Excuse me if I go KCScott on this issue, but this past weekend I rented a car from National while in TX. Since they were out of the cheap-ass economy car that I rented from Hotwire (war that site) for $10/day, they upgraded me to mid-size for free. Since they were out of regular mid-size cars, I got to grab a mid-size from the "Emerald Club" lot, which ended up being a fully-loaded 2007 Chevy Impala.

The interior was nice, but as with all GM cars/sedans, the acceleration was shitty, the brakes gave you nothing for the first inch and then basically locked up after that. This thing had only 17,000 miles on it, yet it made a clunking sound any time I made a sharp turn even at low speeds. At highway speeds, you could feel the vibrations from the front wheels all the way up the steering column, especially if you hit any kind of pothole, where one front wheel would be slightly off from the other. All this on a vehicle with 17,000-freaking miles.

Yeah, America cranks out some quality passenger cars.

It's a fucking rental car, numbnuts. Everyone drives that bitch balls to the wall.

[OCmike]

Agreed to a point.

But after 17,000 miles, you wouldn't think that a vehicle of any decent quality would have those sorts of problems. I mean, it's not like some dipshit took it out and went 4-wheeling on a jeep trail with the fucker.

[KC Scott]

It's a fucking rental car, numbnuts. Everyone drives that bitch balls to the wall.

Yea Babs, I know when I get my rental I'm grinding the starter, doing nuetral drops and donuts in the parking lot of my Marriott.

Ya know cuz', trivial shit like getting to the appointment or the airport don't mean shit when I is a Partyin'