Is the NFL capped on teams?

[RumpleForeskin]

Is there a possibility of expansion or are we good at 32 and the possibility of teams relocating?

The reason I ask is because I think there are some good markets out there that can field the support.

San Antonio getting a sniff of the Saints was a success and the Alamo Dome is appropiate for an NFL franchise unless people still think its too small.

LA is still out there along with Toronto making a big push.

I also think if Oklahoma City is ready to take on an NBA franchise, then you know Sooner land would be game for an NFL franchise. That is probably stretching though.

Any other markets out there worth mentioning?

[PSUFAN]

I sure hope so. 32 is probably too many as it is.

[War Wagon]

32 is probably too many as it is.

Yep. There's not enough talent to go around, even though there are other cities that could support a franchise. S'up LA? Relocation is more likely, but good luck prying any team from their current city.

Besides that, they'd have to rearrange division alignments again after the last expansion, and I don't see the NFL being too eager to do that. Four team divisions within four division conferences seems to be fairly balanced and working out well.

[indyfrisco]

Trey Parker and Matt Stone will be prophets.

The West-North-West-Eastern-Southwest-eastern Division winner is Cheyenne. They hope to meet up with the Mid-south-eastern-western-north-south winners in the next bracket.

[poptart]

I have no doubt that it's just a matter of time until there is expansion.
Global expansion is what the NFL has it's sites set on.

There are already too many teams, IMO.
The league ought to contract rather than expand.
That'll happen never.

[Headhunter]

Ditto what Pops said. The talent pool is too watered down as it is, no need to expand further. Until the NFL can start drafting international players ala Baseball and Basketball, the talent pool simply can't meet the demand of expansion without diminishing the overall product.

Sure, you can find enough warm bodies to field a team, but the overall game will suffer in quality.

The Toronto Bills become the first international team.

[BSmack]

Ditto what Pops said. The talent pool is too watered down as it is, no need to expand further. Until the NFL can start drafting international players ala Baseball and Basketball, the talent pool simply can't meet the demand of expansion without diminishing the overall product.

Sure, you can find enough warm bodies to field a team, but the overall game will suffer in quality.

The Toronto Bills become the first international team.

I don't see the Bills moving to Toronto full time. Right now the move looks outstanding because US and Canadian currency rates are near par and Toronto has a metro area of 5 million people. The downside is that the exchange rate will drift back towards the old 2/3 valuation, and NFL owners will discover that those 5 million people would rather watch Junior A hockey than NFL football. Furthermore, players will not want to be taxed at Canadian rates and will not want to sign there unless a compromise can be made in the CBA regarding the salary cap to allow for cap flexibility based on both tax rates and the currency exchange rate.

BTW: There is one reason you can guarantee the NFL will expand in the future. Franchise fees for the next two new NFL teams will likely be a billion dollars per team.

[Goober McTuber]

Don’t know that they will be looking to expand when they are probably facing a lockout situation in 2011. 2010 will be an uncapped season and Gene Upshaw claims that if that happens they’ll never get a cap in place again. Pretty volatile situation to be plunking down a billion dollars.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?id=3288568" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[BSmack]

Don’t know that they will be looking to expand when they are probably facing a lockout situation in 2011. 2010 will be an uncapped season and Gene Upshaw claims that if that happens they’ll never get a cap in place again. Pretty volatile situation to be plunking down a billion dollars.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?id=3288568" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The NFL will just have to break the union again. Considering that the players union is populated with players whose average career lasts 4 years, you can expect them to fold yet again. My guess is that we still have 5-6 before expansion is seriously considered, but it will happen again. No way the owners turn their nose up at a 60+ million dollar payday per team.

[OCmike]

BTW: There is one reason you can guarantee the NFL will expand in the future. Franchise fees for the next two new NFL teams will likely be a billion dollars per team.

^^^^Gets it.

Wasn't the franchise fee paid for by the Browns organization $700 mil? It'd have to be at least a billion by now for a new team.

[Shoalzie]

Aside from throwing off the balanced eight 4-team divisions...I don't see why the league couldn't stop growing. I wouldn't want to see more mediocrity creep into the league than there already is though. Expansion dilutes talent but creates more balance in the league.

[Goober McTuber]

Expansion does not create balance. For the teams in the division that gets an expansion team it creates two automatic Ws. The salary cap creates balance (also known as "parody").

[Headhunter]

At times, the NFL does seem to be a "Parody" of it's former self, you know, before the salary cap produced 'parity" in the league.

[Shoalzie]

Expansion does not create balance. For the teams in the division that gets an expansion team it creates two automatic Ws. The salary cap creates balance (also known as "parody").

Just look at the Panthers and Jags...they made a quick impact in the NFL. The Browns made the playoffs fairly quick in their second life. The Texans are on the rise...playoffs can't be that far away for them.

With expansion, more teams means more starting jobs and more options for players to choose to get their money. The cap and expansion work hand-and-hand to produce a watered-down but balanced league.

In the end though, the best teams are those who spend wisely and draft well. Hence, the Pats and Colts are great teams and the Lions suck ass. The cap doesn't mean everybody can be good...you still need a strong brain trust.

[fix]

I don't see the Bills moving to Toronto full time. Right now the move looks outstanding because US and Canadian currency rates are near par and Toronto has a metro area of 5 million people.

A good number of them making that 100 mile drive each way and filling the seats at Rich Stadium for a number of years. Bringing the Bills to Toronto full time, you really underestimate the number of Bills and NFL football fans around here that are passionate enough and willing to spend the $$ on seasons tickets to support their team because they wouldn't have to deal with all of the bs and long delays of crossing the border to do it.

The downside is that the exchange rate will drift back towards the old 2/3 valuation, and NFL owners will discover that those 5 million people would rather watch Junior A hockey than NFL football.

Guess again, the super charged oil fueled loonie isn't going anywhere near south of the $.90 mark anytime soon. Not as long as there's a big need for oil and gas. Unless OPEC decides to open their taps all the way or Chavez suddenly becomes your best friend selling it dirt cheap to you while bringing the price per barrel way down... that oil fueled loonie will never return to that 2/3 level you think it will.

Furthermore, players will not want to be taxed at Canadian rates and will not want to sign there unless a compromise can be made in the CBA regarding the salary cap to allow for cap flexibility based on both tax rates and the currency exchange rate.

Jesus Bri, what decade are you living in. You don't think the Jays, Raptors, Leafs etc haven't already dispelled that overblown tax falacy by now?
I mean, just how do you think they get American born players to sign here at all if there was such a big tax discrepancy and penalty for playing in another country.

Here, learn a little mmkay? It's a bit dated and the numbers have changed over time but the principle message of it still applies today... scroll down to the 2nd article

Now, Toronto would need to build a larger stadium to house an NFL franchise with the Rogers Centre being limited to roughly its maximum of 53,000 seats to support an NFL team. But as a temporary home while one is built, it could serve more than adequately.

Wait until Ralph dies Bri, the team's going to be up for grabs and there's a very couple of extremely wealthy guys around Toronto who would love nothing more than to get their hands on it, hands that have more than enough money it takes to grab it.

[Goober McTuber]

At times, the NFL does seem to be a "Parody" of it's former self, you know, before the salary cap produced 'parity" in the league.

I know. That's why I put "parody" in quotes.

[War Wagon]

...you really underestimate the number of Bills and NFL football fans around here that are passionate...

Excuse the cherry picking, but Otis? I don't imagine you being passionate about anything, much less the NFL.

This is the first time I've seen you post something of subtance in the NFL forum, but it seems to me there isn't much "passion" there at all.

[fix]

...you really underestimate the number of Bills and NFL football fans around here that are passionate...

Excuse the cherry picking, but Otis? I don't imagine you being passionate about anything, much less the NFL.

Wags, remember that old saying, you can't always tell what a person is like based on their internet persona.
Sure the NFL is not at the top of my list of things to be passionate about. That's because while I follow it pretty much on a weekly basis from training camp to the Super bowl, I'm one of those great number of fans that won't drive 100-150 miles each way, crossing the border with all of it's hassles and often, multiple hour long delays to see a game that's on my tv. It's just not worth the aggravation.
Now, if it were a 20 minute hop, I'd be there every week as would a huge number of the 5.5 million population that forms the GTA (Greater Toronto Area).

This is the first time I've seen you post something of subtance in the NFL forum, but it seems to me there isn't much "passion" there at all.

Yeah well to be perfectly honest, I like to save those energies for real life things that would have a direct impact on my life or business in a negative way.
Talking sports is the time out from that if you will.
But don't mistake that for a lack of passion for the game.

[BSmack]

A good number of them making that 100 mile drive each way and filling the seats at Rich Stadium for a number of years. Bringing the Bills to Toronto full time, you really underestimate the number of Bills and NFL football fans around here that are passionate enough and willing to spend the $$ on seasons tickets to support their team because they wouldn't have to deal with all of the bs and long delays of crossing the border to do it.

Rochester, with a population a fraction of the size of Toronto is 25% of the season ticket base for the Bills. Eight Sundays a year, 20,000 or so Rochestarians make the 90 minute trek to Orchard Park. Where are these rabid Canadians? While I have met a few Canadians at "The Ralph" over the years, they damn sure don't equal 25% of the ticket base.

I'm sure that the first few games in Toronto will be a huge hit. They'll probably sell out all 8 games. Big deal. Buffalo has averaged over 70,000 tickets a game since the mid 80s. This is all about creating a regional identity for the Buffalo Bills.

Guess again, the super charged oil fueled loonie isn't going anywhere near south of the $.90 mark anytime soon. Not as long as there's a big need for oil and gas. Unless OPEC decides to open their taps all the way or Chavez suddenly becomes your best friend selling it dirt cheap to you while bringing the price per barrel way down... that oil fueled loonie will never return to that 2/3 level you think it will.

The Loonie has not gone up, the Dollar has gone down against ALL currencies. Soon enough we'll have adult leadership here in the states and that shit will straighten out. There were people saying the same thing about the Canadian dollar back in the mid 70s. Build some nuclear weapons and get back to me.

Jesus Bri, what decade are you living in. You don't think the Jays, Raptors, Leafs etc haven't already dispelled that overblown tax falacy by now?

I see you conveniently left out the Grizzlies, Expos, Nordiques and the Jets.

BTW, shouldn't the Raptors win a playoff series before you start citing them as some kind of model of success? Not that you or anybody else in Canada would have noticed.

I mean, just how do you think they get American born players to sign here at all if there was such a big tax discrepancy and penalty for playing in another country.

Well, SOMEBODY has to play for them. Also, with the NHL teams, you're talking about some of the most iconic teams in the sport when you speak of the Canadian teams. You're also talking about the national sport of Canada.

Here, learn a little mmkay? It's a bit dated and the numbers have changed over time but the principle message of it still applies today... scroll down to the 2nd article

Now, Toronto would need to build a larger stadium to house an NFL franchise with the Rogers Centre being limited to roughly its maximum of 53,000 seats to support an NFL team. But as a temporary home while one is built, it could serve more than adequately.

53,000 seats is a joke for an NFL stadium. Why do you think average ticket prices are 250 dollars a seat? Also, you neglect to say where the funding will come for a new stadium. Will the Toronto taxpayers have to bite the bullet? Or do your rich folk have to pay for their own playthings? In New York, a potential new owner will have the chance to extort the state to the tune of 1 billion dollars for a new state of the art stadium.

Wait until Ralph dies Bri, the team's going to be up for grabs and there's a very couple of extremely wealthy guys around Toronto who would love nothing more than to get their hands on it, hands that have more than enough money it takes to grab it.

There's a better chance the team gets bought by either a local group or a group of investors from Los Angeles. Not to mention, if Ralph kicks in the next year, potential buyers would still be required to honor the remainder of the team's lease in Buffalo. And, there's also the matter of the gentleman's agreement between the NFL and CFL to consider. Even with these games the Bills are playing, they are being careful to schedule the regular season games after the close of the CFL season. An NFL team in Toronto will kill the Argos and Tiger Cats, and with them likely the whole CFL.

Sorry, I'm just not seeing full time NFL team in Canada anytime soon.

[Dinsdale]

Jesus Bri, what decade are you living in. You don't think the Jays, Raptors, Leafs etc haven't already dispelled that overblown tax falacy by now?
I mean, just how do you think they get American born players to sign here at all if there was such a big tax discrepancy and penalty for playing in another country.

Here's a comprehensive list of big name free agents who have resigned with the Raptors:

-Chris Bosh




Keep telling yourself how attractive your teams are to Americans, Seal-Clubber.

[OCmike]

...multiple hour long delays to see a game that's on my tv.

RACK. The NFL is pretty much the only major sport where you've got a better and sometimes more enjoyable (no drunks/fights/vomiting/piss-covered restroom floors,etc) view of the game than you do at the stadium.

When we were kids, the parents used to take us to several Giants games at Candlestick Park every year. Considering how bad the traffic was to see the Giants play in mediocre years with a half-full stadium, I can only imagine what it's like for a sold out Niner game. Hwy-101 is a veritable parking lot through that area on a normal day, so if you add in game traffic, you're probably looking at a 3-hour drive to get to the stadium, plus another hour to get into the lot and find a parking spot.

BTW, one thing that always DOES make my heart warm with delight is that it never matters what sport or concert you're watching at any outdoor stadium, but there's always at least one idiot who invariably puts his hot grill underneath his car before heading into the stadium and turns that fucker into an inferno.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

There's a better chance the team gets bought by either a local group or a group of investors from Los Angeles. Not to mention, if Ralph kicks in the next year, potential buyers would still be required to honor the remainder of the team's lease in Buffalo.

Tom Golisano has already made it clear that he would gladly step in to keep the Bills in Buffalo. Jim Kelly has also been quoted as claiming to be in the loop regarding local investment plans for the team after the homeostatic failure of Wilson. I don't know if Kelly plans on being part of an investment team or if he happens to have been made privy to the info because of his status as a team hero. Either way, it sounds as though the team is probably going to continue their regionalization effort but will stay in western NY.

[War Wagon]

...don't mistake that for a lack of passion for the game.

Hmmm, ok... I won't question your "passion" for the game..

But I'll explain to you how it feels to be a lifelong Chiefs fan.

............................................................

Fuck, I can't do it, much like the Chiefs haven't since 1969.

There's no way to describe the empty feeling in the pit of my stomach after a loss.

Have you ever had that feeling, Otis?

The feeling that you live and fucking die with your team?

That's how I feel. The playoff losses have damn near kilt me.

[Canadian]

I am shocked since the Raiders moved back to Oakland that LA still has not a team, either by relocation or expansion.

I don't see Toronto getting a full time team just due to the dollar being superficially high at the moment. But one never knows as Montreal and Vancouver could also support NFL too.