OT: NCAA Lax Tourney @ Ithaca, NY PET (pics to come later)

[Terry in Crapchester]

. . . hopefully, anyway.

File this under "First Time for Everything," in more ways than one. I took my son on Sunday to see the NCAA Lacrosse quarterfinals at Ithaca -- Dook vs. tOSU and Syracuse vs. ND. I'm not a huge college lacrosse fan, but the weekend before last, I was channel-surfing out of boredom (being old married guy with young kids means that I usually stay in on weekends), and I came across the NCAA tourney selection show on ESPNU. Given that ND usually has a decent lacrosse team, I tuned in to see how we made out. And after ND got by Colgate in OT, I did some more digging on the interwebs and found out that this round would be at Ithaca. When you have your a team from your school coming this close to where you live, with this much on the line, you gotta support the team. (However, I didn't do the full Puddy, avoiding the face-painting dealio, as I never would've heard the end of it from my wife and son.)

I took pics with the cell phone, and at first was afraid that they didn't come out too well, since Mother Nature wasn't exactly cooperative. But I reviewed them, and they're better than I had feared. Once I get a chance to read the manual and figure out how to upload them (hopefully later today), I'll post them.

As for the report . . .

I had planned on going to both games. Unfortunately, the best laid plans unraveled, as my wife got me up at 7:30 and told me she wanted me to go to Target with her first. Since we're out in the middle of nowhere, and it takes at least 1/2 hour to get anywhere, we weren't back until 11:00. So I knew I was gonna be late, although that didn't bother me too much, given that my son has ADHD and probably wouldn't be too thrilled about watching two full games. By the time we got to Ithaca and did everything we had to do, the Dook - tOSU game was ending just as we walked in to Schoellkopf Field (apologies in advance to Dook and tOSU fans, I only have pics of players leaving the field from that game). Dook won 21-10, so apparently it wasn't much of a contest.

So we're getting close to the main attraction, for me anyway (and probably for the majority of fans there). ND and Syracuse take the field, warm up for what seems like an eternity, and finally it's game on.

ND gets off to a really poor start, losing every first-half faceoff except one (where Syracuse was called for a penalty), and getting very few of the out-of-bounds calls. It's 3-1 Syracuse after one quarter, 6-2 at the half. But, ND had come back from a similar deficit (5-2) the week before, against a team (Colgate) which had knocked off Syracuse late in the regular season. Could lightning strike twice?

Halftime came, my son wanted to get something to eat and I had to go to the bathroom. So we made the trek to the concession area. By the time we got back to our seats, second half was about to begin. And what a start to the second half it was. ND erased the deficit with a furious rally, tying the score about five minutes into the third quarter. Coincidentally, the comeback corresponded to the sun peeking out from behind the clouds for the first time all day, and even piqued the interest of my son, who had been somewhat bored up until then. By the end of the third, ND had taken a 8-7 lead. Of course, by that time all semblence of objectivity was out the window for me, and I was in full-fledged ND fan mode. Could ND do it for the second week in a row?

Unfortunately, that was not to be. Syracuse came storming back, scoring the final three goals of the game, and managing to milk about 3 minutes off the clock on its final possession for a hard-fought 11-9 win. A tough loss to take for a ND fan, but there's never any shame in losing a close game to an excellent team.

A few thoughts:

- Ithaca did a great job in hosting the quarterfinal round, even though I'm sure it hurt things that the host team (Cornell) had been elminated by tOSU the week before. The one complaint I have was a tent set up at midfield on the near sideline which obstructed our view of the other side of the field. We probably should have sat a little higher, but my son wanted to sit close to the field.

- Rack NCAA lacrosse for not being a revenue sport. Tickets were quite affordable ($10 for me and $5 for my kid, by way of comparison, we spent more money than that on gas for the trip), and the entertainment value was well worth the cost of admission. I have been to other sporting events about which I could not say that.

- As I understand it, the problem Schmick has with basketball and soccer is that you can't hit the guy with the ball. So I'm somewhat surprised that he hasn't yet advocated for USC to drop baseball and start a lacrosse team instead. Yes, I know lacrosse is a very regional sport, but then again, so is hockey, and that hasn't stopped him from advocating the same thing about hockey. At least that way, his "logic," if that's the right word for it, would at least be consistent.

- I'm quite pleased with ND's lacrosse program overall. We have a very good program, an excellent program, even, for a school not located in one of the lacrosse hotbeds (although, in fairness, we do pretty well in attracting students from areas that are lacrosse hotbeds).

- Good luck to Syracuse the rest of the way. I'll be rooting for the Orange next week against Virginia, and if they reach the finals, against the winner of Dook - Johns Hopkins.

- Although, as I said, lacrosse is a regional sport, based on my experience at the tournament, I would strongly recommend that anyone who gets the chance to do so attend a NCAA lacrosse tournament event. I'm not enough of a lacrosse fan to make the roadie to Foxboro for the Final Four even if ND were still playing. But if they come back anywhere near here in the future, I'll probably attend again, and definitely will attend if ND is involved again.

Pics to follow soon. I hope.

[SunCoastSooner]

I enjoy LaCrosse. Got turned on to it at an AAU wrestling tourny my freshman year in high school that was held at UVA in Charlottsville. Mostly kids from my high school and the two junior highs that move up to it. Stayed at a beat up motel right on or just off the campus that was a stones throw from the library and intermural LaCrosse fields. Me and two of my friends were were just walking around checking out the sites to see on campus the first day because our division and age group wasn't set to wrestle for a couple more days and we ran into the intermurals. The UVA LaCrosse groupie girls were enough to excite any red blooded american boy about the sport. The women coupled with the action made me fan. It's a fast paced and physical.

[Terry in Crapchester]

I enjoy LaCrosse. Got turned on to it at an AAU wrestling tourny my freshman year in high school that was held at UVA in Charlottsville. Mostly kids from my high school and the two junior highs that move up to it. Stayed at a beat up motel right on or just off the campus that was a stones throw from the library and intermural LaCrosse fields. Me and two of my friends were were just walking around checking out the sites to see on campus the first day because our division and age group wasn't set to wrestle for a couple more days and we ran into the intermurals. The UVA LaCrosse groupie girls were enough to excite any red blooded american boy about the sport. The women coupled with the action made me fan. It's a fast paced and physical.

The area where I live is a lacrosse hotbed. I'd like my son to play. Baseball isn't a good fit for him given his ADHD, and i think he could get pretty good at lacrosse with a little practice. His school doesn't have a high school team, but that could change by the time he gets to high school.

My high school had a team that was just starting out when I was there. In hindsight, I wish I had gone out for the team. I did play a little intramural lacrosse in college.

[Laxplayer]

Well here's some of Schmuck's brilliance....

I didn't know that anyone actually watched college hockey...
more than watch college soccer, wrestling, lacrosse, track and field and womens basketball combined

Well there will be over 50,000 people at the lacrosse finals this weekend.

As someone who played it in college and also played club for may years I can honestly say that it was the most fun sport I've ever played. A great combination of football, basketball, hockey, track etc.....It's also a great sport for keeping in shape for other sports. I don't know why coaches frown on kids playing more than one sport but if I'm the basketball, soccer or football coach I make sure my kids also play lacrosse.
Glad you had a good time at the game. It's growing a lot our here in So. Cal so hopefully one day it will be as popular as some other sports.

[King Crimson]

i wonder if my buddy Todd went. he played lax at Colorado State and now teaches at Ithaca College.

[Sol]

I took pics with the cell phone, and at first was afraid that they didn't come out too well, since Mother Nature wasn't exactly cooperative. But I reviewed them, and they're better than I had feared. Once I get a chance to read the manual and figure out how to upload them (hopefully later today), I'll post them.

Manuals? We don't need no stinking manuals! Terry, have you tried emailing the pics to yourself from your phone? Find the interface on your phone where you can see thumbnails of all pics. Then select the ones you want. Then email them to your personal email. Pull up your email and save them to your hard drive. I think they transfer as jpgs. Then post them here.

Good luck.

[Screw_Michigan]

RACK terry. If my high school had lax when I was growing up, I would have played it. So similar to hockey it's unreal, AND you get to LEGALLY slash the hell out of the opponent when he has the ball. How can you beat that?

I went and saw ND play PSU in the home opener this season. It was free and, thankfully, in the Loftus Center since it was late February. The Irish rolled the Lions. The only suggestion I would make with NCAA lax is that if you are going to have bleachers for the fans to sit on, make sure they go more vertical than horizontal. Like football, if you are on ground level, it can be a real bitch to see plays develop and everything else going on.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Well here's some of Schmuck's brilliance....

I didn't know that anyone actually watched college hockey...
more than watch college soccer, wrestling, lacrosse, track and field and womens basketball combined

Well there will be over 50,000 people at the lacrosse finals this weekend.

Excellent point. The Final Four is sold out. And I'm pretty sure the Frozen Four is not held in any venue which can seat 50,000, or even remotely close to that number.

Parenthetically, even if he's talking absolute numbers, he's way off base there as well. Based on my count from the NCAA's website, there are 59 Division I hockey programs, and just under 200 Division I soccer programs. Based on those numbers, it's only Marcus Allen-esque to conclude that more people watch college soccer than college hockey.

As someone who played it in college and also played club for may years I can honestly say that it was the most fun sport I've ever played. A great combination of football, basketball, hockey, track etc.....It's also a great sport for keeping in shape for other sports. I don't know why coaches frown on kids playing more than one sport but if I'm the basketball, soccer or football coach I make sure my kids also play lacrosse.

I've heard about coaches frowning on kids playing more than one sport, but around here that's usually not the case. Coaches want the kids to stay in shape the rest of the year. And New York doesn't allow high schools to have spring football or fall baseball, so as it stands, basketball and hockey are about the only sports where there's the opportunity to play year-round, and most of that is outside the school-sponsored area. I suppose you could throw in tennis as well, if you're willing to play indoor tennis in the winter. Again, that would be outside the school-sponsored area.

That's why I think lacrosse would be a good fit for my kid's school district. Despite having only about 450 kids in grades 9-12 (including the girls), they're something of a local football powerhouse, and they usually get about 40-50 kids out for varsity football and a similar number for JV football. The only spring sport offerings are baseball, tennis and track. Baseball and tennis have limited numbers out of necessity, and track isn't going to appeal to every kid. Throw in the fact that the soccer players (soccer is a fall sport here at the high school level) are also looking for a spring sport, and the logical conclusion is that a lot of the football players will be left out of the mix in the spring. Lacrosse could fill a void in that regard.

[Laxplayer]

I've heard about coaches frowning on kids playing more than one sport, but around here that's usually not the case. Coaches want the kids to stay in shape the rest of the year.

Well Terry, I can't stand these coaches. They actually think that the more these kids play then the more successful their programs are going to be. Well there are cases of many kids who burn out, have overuse injuries, don't get to enjoy their high school lives etc....then let's take high school pitchers. These kids are throwing during the season, during winter ball, during fall ball, during summer. Hell these kids are probably throwing around 200 innings per year. How freaking smart is that.

I've talked to a lot of college coaches and they love kids that played two sports in high school. The reason is because these kids learn how to compete in different areas. Imagine being a kid on the free throw line with no time left and you have to hit both to win, or being at bat with the winning run on base for a league title, or vs. your rival. I had the pleasure of witnessing a kid this year kick a game winning field goal vs. his arch rival in the rain. (it was his first FG attempt of his career) he then missed one vs. another team and made another one for a league championship. He's also a stud soccer player and is now competing in the state round of golf. Now do you really think this kid is going to freeze over something in golf? Hell no, he's competed and come through under pressure before. He's got a full ride for golf to Pepperdine. This kid can compete and will be a hell of a golfer at the next level. So what was the harm in having him play more than one sport. Oh this was his first year EVER playing football and he made all league.
Fuck those coaches who won't let kids play more than one sport.

[Screw_Michigan]

the 10 frozen four is going to be at ford field. this will be the first time they've ever had it in a venue larger than 20k.

[Goober McTuber]

Detroit, eh? Might have to drive down there and watch the Badgers add to their trophy cabinet. It’s a young team that has some excellent incoming talent lined up for the next couple of years.

[Screw_Michigan]

Detroit, eh? Might have to drive down there and watch the Badgers add to their trophy cabinet. It’s a young team that has some excellent incoming talent lined up for the next couple of years.

You guys should probably finish above .500 before setting your sights on the big prize. Baby steps.

[Goober McTuber]

Detroit, eh? Might have to drive down there and watch the Badgers add to their trophy cabinet. It’s a young team that has some excellent incoming talent lined up for the next couple of years.

You guys should probably finish above .500 before setting your sights on the big prize. Baby steps.

Hey, this was going to be a tough year. Young team that finished below .500 and still made the NCAA tournament. Good starting point.

[Terry in Crapchester]

JSC,

Just curious: at what level do TCU and LSU play lacrosse? I don't see either school listed here.

[Left Seater]

Lacrosse is a club sport at both places. Teams TCU played against: Texas, Texas Tech, Texas A&M, SMU, Baylor, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Houston, Arizona State, Colorado, Rice, Tulsa, a few others.

Title IX again.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Lacrosse is a club sport at both places. Teams TCU played against: Texas, Texas Tech, Texas A&M, SMU, Baylor, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Houston, Arizona State, Colorado, Rice, Tulsa, a few others.

Title IX again.

Not a fan of Title IX, but in fairness I don't think it's to blame here. After all, women's lacrosse is a NCAA-sanctioned sport, so meeting Title IX requirements is relatively easy for most schools that want a lacrosse team.

I'm certainly not the final authority on college athletics, and I don't know anything more about TCU lacrosse than what JSC has posted. But taking an educated guess, I think the best answer can be found here:

Of course we weren't playing at the level of the NCAA teams in the northeast. I remember some all-star team that made a trip down to our area played us, now THAT was funny. Those guys schooled us every monent they were on the field, and they seemed to particularly enjoy making the TCU goalie (me) look like a complete spastic.

From my experience, it seems that many schools that play a number of sports at the Division I level, and want to field a team in a particular sport, but realize that they won't be able to compete with the big boys in said sport, field the team at the club level rather than at Division II or III levels. Note that most of the schools JSC mentioned field a number of Division I programs.

And as I mentioned at the outset, lacrosse is an extremely regional sport. Only two Division I programs (Denver and Air Force) are located west of the Mississippi. In fact, only a total of five programs, all of which play in the same conference (Denver and Air Force, plus ND, Bellarmine and Ohio State) are even located west of the Ohio River. Of this group, ND is the closest thing to a national power in lacrosse, and ND has the benefit of drawing a pretty significant portion of its student body from areas of the country that are lacrosse hotbeds.

[Laxplayer]

I didn't know that anyone actually watched college hockey...
more than watch college soccer, wrestling, lacrosse, track and field and womens basketball combined

Let's examine Schmuck's brilliance again please.....Near 50,000 for the game today 48,970

Let's also take a look at the semi final games....48,224 for the semi finals.

Hell that's more than an average $UC game before chetey petey came on board. I guess lacrosse is more popular than $C football once was.

[Left Seater]

Terry,

Many schools in Texas and I am sure in other southern states are in this boat. The issue is Title IX, geography and interest based. Texas is one of the better examples. They have a very good men's soccer program at the club level, in fact they have won a few titles. However, to add that as a varsity sport they then have to add a women's sport to make that happen. The issue then becomes what program do they add? Field hockey? NE regional sport. LAX? East coast regional sport. Bowling and rifle could be added but even both of those programs combined would not bring the school into Title IX compliance. Texas already has women's rowing and spends a ton of money getting the boats and crews to events in the Eastern time zone. Do you add three women's programs to add one men's program?

Another factor that some schools have to deal with is participation among females. Many women in this part of the country want no part of competitive athletics. Take my wife for example. She never played any competitive sports in school and she doesn't/didn't play them now. Another example is my high school girls soccer program. In my Jr year there wasn't enough participants to field a varsity, JV, and frosh team. So they dropped the varsity and frosh team and competed with a JV team for two years. So if you can't find 15 girls who want to play soccer in a school of almost 3000 what does that say?

So even with a ton of interest in these male sports among the student body how do you add it?

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Cool story, Jsc. Rack you.

[SunCoastSooner]

Terry,

Many schools in Texas and I am sure in other southern states are in this boat. The issue is Title IX, geography and interest based. Texas is one of the better examples. They have a very good men's soccer program at the club level, in fact they have won a few titles. However, to add that as a varsity sport they then have to add a women's sport to make that happen. The issue then becomes what program do they add? Field hockey? NE regional sport. LAX? East coast regional sport. Bowling and rifle could be added but even both of those programs combined would not bring the school into Title IX compliance. Texas already has women's rowing and spends a ton of money getting the boats and crews to events in the Eastern time zone. Do you add three women's programs to add one men's program?

Another factor that some schools have to deal with is participation among females. Many women in this part of the country want no part of competitive athletics. Take my wife for example. She never played any competitive sports in school and she doesn't/didn't play them now. Another example is my high school girls soccer program. In my Jr year there wasn't enough participants to field a varsity, JV, and frosh team. So they dropped the varsity and frosh team and competed with a JV team for two years. So if you can't find 15 girls who want to play soccer in a school of almost 3000 what does that say?

So even with a ton of interest in these male sports among the student body how do you add it?

I have to agree. Oklahoma and Iowa State have very successful hockey programs at the club level and draw more paying fans to their venue than many of the of the female sports that are sanctioned. Neither is ever likely to have a varsity team because of title IX.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Terry,

Many schools in Texas and I am sure in other southern states are in this boat. The issue is Title IX, geography and interest based. Texas is one of the better examples. They have a very good men's soccer program at the club level, in fact they have won a few titles. However, to add that as a varsity sport they then have to add a women's sport to make that happen. The issue then becomes what program do they add? Field hockey? NE regional sport. LAX? East coast regional sport. Bowling and rifle could be added but even both of those programs combined would not bring the school into Title IX compliance. Texas already has women's rowing and spends a ton of money getting the boats and crews to events in the Eastern time zone. Do you add three women's programs to add one men's program?

Another factor that some schools have to deal with is participation among females. Many women in this part of the country want no part of competitive athletics. Take my wife for example. She never played any competitive sports in school and she doesn't/didn't play them now. Another example is my high school girls soccer program. In my Jr year there wasn't enough participants to field a varsity, JV, and frosh team. So they dropped the varsity and frosh team and competed with a JV team for two years. So if you can't find 15 girls who want to play soccer in a school of almost 3000 what does that say?

So even with a ton of interest in these male sports among the student body how do you add it?

I have to agree. Oklahoma and Iowa State have very successful hockey programs at the club level and draw more paying fans to their venue than many of the of the female sports that are sanctioned. Neither is ever likely to have a varsity team because of title IX.

I'll have to confess to not knowing all the nuts and bolts of Title IX. I always thought that Title IX meant one women's team for every men's team. If that's true, lacrosse is a relatively easy add. Women's lacrosse is a NCAA-sanctioned sport, and the natural companion, from a Title IX perspective, to men's lacrosse. Either you have both sports at the varsity level, or you have neither.

I could be wrong about this, but I don't think Title IX requires an equal number of male and female participants in varsity sports. The numbers in football are nearly impossible to make up through other sports. And for that matter, you have schools like Notre Dame which have more male students than female students -- it wouldn't make sense to require a school like that to have as many female varsity athletes as male varsity athletes.

As for hockey, since SCS brought it up, I suppose I should flush out the details of ND's hockey program, particularly focusing on my time as a student, since that time is important to the hockey program.

When I was a freshman, ND definitely had a big-time college hockey team. I wouldn't go so far as to call it an elite team, but we did play with the big boys, and as a point in fact, we had a win over the #1 team in the country at the time (Bowling Green) during my freshman year. As an incoming student, I recall receiving a season ticket application for hockey in addition to football and basketball. Hockey was the only other sport, besides football and basketball, to charge admission for games. So a real argument could have been made at the time that hockey was the #3 most important sport at ND after football and mens' basketball.

After that season, the Administration announced that ND was dropping hockey down to the club level. Most of the better players with remaining eligibility transferred to other schools. The following year, ND's club hockey team consisted of: (a) benchwarmers from the previous year's team who saw an opportunity to start; (b) a few returning players who wanted to remain at ND regardless (some overlap between (a) and (b)); and (c) some students who were not good enough hockey players to play at the Division I level, but were good enough to play at the club level (one of my friends was in that category). ND ran rough shot (Cicero reset intentional) over its competition that year.

The following year, ND announced that the hockey program was returning to Division I level, only this time with no scholarships. At that point, ND began to get slaughtered in hockey, and as it turned out, it would take a very long time to get the program finally turned around.

A few things seem to have been the case here:

1. I don't think Title IX was a factor, given that the program was only at club status for a year. Dropping the program to club level status for a year did give the scholarship players a chance to transfer without having to sit out a year.

2. While it seems strange today to consider that ND might have dropped a sports team for budget reasons, keep in mind that this was before the NBC contract, before the days of huge BCS bowl payouts, etc. ND football, while still lucrative back then, was nowhere near the cash cow it is today.

Anyway, the reason I brought this up was to illustrate the huge difference in the competition level between Division I and club level. It makes perfect sense to me that schools like TCU and LSU may keep their lacrosse programs at the club level for that reason alone. Of course, travel costs would increase considerably for those schools were they to move lacrosse to the Division I level.

[Left Seater]

I'll have to confess to not knowing all the nuts and bolts of Title IX. I always thought that Title IX meant one women's team for every men's team. If that's true, lacrosse is a relatively easy add. Women's lacrosse is a NCAA-sanctioned sport, and the natural companion, from a Title IX perspective, to men's lacrosse. Either you have both sports at the varsity level, or you have neither.

I could be wrong about this, but I don't think Title IX requires an equal number of male and female participants in varsity sports. The numbers in football are nearly impossible to make up through other sports. And for that matter, you have schools like Notre Dame which have more male students than female students -- it wouldn't make sense to require a school like that to have as many female varsity athletes as male varsity athletes.

Here is a quick over view of Title IX. Title IX is a section of the Education Amendments of 1972, to the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The official summary reads, "No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, or denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any educational program or activity receiving federal assistance." Now how does that relate to athletics? Three options for participation compliance were included in the amendment.

Option 1 - Compare the ratio of male a female athletes to the ratio of male and female undergraduates. If these two are equal the school is likely in compliance.

Option 2 - Demonstrate that the institution has a history and continuing practice of program expansion for the underrepresented gender.

Option 3 - Demonstrate that the institution has already effectively accommodated the interests and abilities of the underrepresented gender.

While the language presents three options, two and three are basically useless today. In the early days of Title IX Schools used option 2 to show that they were adding women's opportunities, however, no school has used that option successfully since the mid 80s. Option 3 is basically option 1 in the courts eyes.

So in the case of ND or RICE with more male students than female students compliance is much easier. But take a school like Texas where women stand at a majority with 53% of the undergrad population and offsetting football becomes much more difficult since 53% of your athletes must be female. Participation is only part of the Title IX language, spending is also a part of the equation.

The spending language is complicated in that it doesn't have to be dollar for dollar but equal. The two main parts of this are scholarships and general expenditures. The scholarship portion is pretty straight forward. Say a school has a scholarship budget of $1 million. The division of money must match the ratio of athletes. So if ND has 56 percent male undergrads then in this example they could spend $ 560,000 on male scholarships and $440,000 on female scholarships. At Texas the amount they could spend on male scholarships would be $470,000, and $530,000 would be spent on female scholarships. Don't forget that this ratio is set based on the ratio established above in the participation language.

The remainder of the spending must be equal. Title IX DOES NOT SAY that you must spend according to the above ratios. It however says the spending must be equal. For example if it takes $1,000 to outfit a football player the school does not have to spend $1,000 to outfit a female soccer player. However, if the football team buys new uniforms for football each year, then they must buy new uniforms for female sports each year. Title IX also says that the facilities must be equal. Schools can spend new money on football stadiums and upgrades etc, however, female facilities must be upgraded on the same schedules. Title IX also says that the per diems for male athletes will be the same as female athletes when traveling. IE the football team can't eat at Morton's while the girls soccer team eats at Wendy's.

So to finish this thought to comply with Title IX at Texas looking at only the football program with 85 scholarship athletes, there must be 90 scholarship female athletes. So it isn't as easy as just adding the same sport for males and females. In order to add one male sport, often there must be two female sports added. This is why you saw many schools cut men's programs rather than add multiple women's programs.