Too good to be true?

[Mikey]

Maybe. Just maybe.


Japs introduce the first water powered car...


http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/ ... 4&src=news" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Wolfman]

uh--sure--- and Exxon/Mobil oil execs have been suppressing those water powered cars for years !

[Dinsdale]

Too good to be true? Yes, I think so.

Sin,
The Laws of Physics


Really, please tell us more about this miracle "energy pack" that can continuously break down water to hydrogen and come out ahead on the whole First Law of Thermodynamics obstacle that people have been dealing with since the dawn of time. I would think this miracle energy pack thingy would be the big news, not a car that runs on hydrogen, since there's nothing new about that.

Sounds like some scammers looking to bilk some overzealous investors... I'm guessing Al Gore is a major shareholder and is in on the scam.

[PSUFAN]

This is going to change everything. Set up a meeting with Steve Jobs RIGHT AWAY.

--Dean Kamen

[Dinsdale]

It has some little thing that stirs the water up and produces hydrogen bubbles which are then fed through the intake manifold. They've got this on a Suburban, and the fucking thing is able to get 26 mpg on the road.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!


Sin,
The First Law of Thermodynamics





Yes, stirring up water releases hydrogen.

Sin,
The Massive Cloud of Hydrogen Over The Ocean

[Mikey]

I dunno dins.

Shake up shutyomouth a little bit and you get a huge methane cloud.
That could be the answer right there.

[Dinsdale]

Upon checking out a few things, I've heard that the water obviously would have to have more of a catalyst (baking soda? ).

You should check out the First Law of Thermodynamics.

But when someone can actually sit down and explain how they're getting more energy out of the hydrogen in water than it takes to separate the hydrogen from the water to begin with, I'd be all ears.


Seems like if that was possibe... the earth would have exploded millions of years ago.


That seems to be the big problem with these miracle fuel devices... those pesky laws of physics that say they're full of complete bullshit.


The conspiracy doesn't come from the big oil companies... blame that one squarely on Albert Einstein and his predecessors.

[Dinsdale]

Baking soda and water wouldn't do anything except release a little CO2.

Shaken, or stirred?


I'm assuming that he's talking about using the baking soda as a conductor in electrolysis, rather than as a "catalyst."


Since yeah, other than that, you might be able to get some CO2 out of the deal... you know, that waste product that comes out of an internal combustion engine.

[Dinsdale]

OK. Let me know how that perpetual motion machine works out.


It's odd how none of these people who are apparently smart enough to solve the ultimate secret of life, the universe, and everything aren't smart enough to have parlayed that into immeasurable wealth, or at least becoming a household name...


Curious, that.

[Dinsdale]

My only concern would be as to what kind of wear and tear this would put on the combustion chamber - hence - I'd rather these guys we know be the guinea pigs for a while longer.

Gasoline engines aren't dependent on fuel lubricosity like their diesel counterparts. Lubrication comes entirely from the pressurized oiling system.


Still waiting to hear where this extra energy is coming from. "It works" doesn't exactly cut it, since my belief in voodoo is shaky at best.

[RumpleForeskin]

The First Law of Thermodynamics

Stop saying that!!!

sin,

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

The First Law of Thermodynamics

is you don't talk about Thermodynamics.

[Dinsdale]

Stop saying that!!!

It really is the only appropriate response to anything involving water-fuelled cars and whatsuch.

[Mikey]

It might work if you drop some calcium carbide into the water.

[Dinsdale]

Not meaning this in a bad way at all, but don't you work on/with cars? I'd like to know your slant on why it would be bad for them or whatever.

In a past lifetime.


I don't see any undue wear problems with it.

I just don't understand where this extra energy to drive the vehicle comes from.

And "shaking up a mason jar" just sounds a little too mired in Georgianology to me.

[Dinsdale]

It might work if you drop some calcium carbide into the water.

Absolutely.

Substituting what's essentially a "fossil fuel" (kindasortaalmost) for another seems infinitely plausable.

Cousin BillyBob shaking up a jar of baking soda does not.

[Dinsdale]

So what are the Japs doing?

Sounds like some scammers looking to bilk some overzealous investors... I'm guessing Al Gore is a major shareholder and is in on the scam.

[Dinsdale]

C'mon... seriously...

They claim to produce the hydrogen through some "miracle energy pack" or some such crap.


Hello?

Why not skip the middleman, and use this super-secret energy source to...

I dunno...

POWER THE VEHICLE, maybe?


If that doesn't peg the Bullshit Meter, I don't know what will.

[PSUFAN]

I'm going to be checking with this band from time to time to see what's up with it.

Now it's perfectly clear. 4 unwashed dudes tooling around the nation in a rickety pickup + daily hangovers + fast food + beer = energy out the wazoo

[Mikey]

http://water4gas.com/online-books/userm ... M-004.html

Yeah - it does look like a bit of a happy gay marketing scheme, but this spreads a little light on it.

Like I said - the people I was telling you about it are using it and are getting 26 mpg out of a Suburban.

Regardless if it's silly, appears silly, or whatthefuckever, water has hydrogen in it. Hydrogen can go pop. Ask the Hindenburg.

'spray,

I know you're not an energy wank or anything like that but this is really pretty simple.

H2 (hydrogen) + O (oxygen) <=> H2O (water)

There's a lot more energy in the H2 and O combination apart than there is in the H2O. That's why when you put them together you get heat and water.

To get them apart again you have to add energy, as in electrolysis where you use electricity to separate them. It's physically impossible to get energy out when you split the H2 and the O.

[Mikey]

I think I remember hearing that if you add a small amount of water vapor to the combustion mixture of gasoline and air you can increase the combustion efficiency. Maybe that's what your buddies' Suburban is doing. Or maybe they're actually adding moonshine.

[Dinsdale]

Regardless if it's silly, appears silly, or whatthefuckever, water has hydrogen in it. Hydrogen can go pop. Ask the Hindenburg.

Ask the First Law of Thermodynamics.

And you'll note they didn't call it the "Four Hundred And Thirty Eight Law of Thermodynamics," or any other obscure designation... you'll note it's the first law of thermodynamics.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed.

E = mc^2


The amount of energy lost in a steady state process cannot be greater than the amount of energy gained.


Word it however you like -- it's still a law, until someone proves otherwise.


No, hydrogen doesn't go "pop." It will, quite readily and dramatically, when mixed 2:1 with oxygen and a heat source is introduced.

And yes, water is 2/3rds hydrogen.

Herein lies the rub -- according to the First Law of Thermodynamics, the energy produced by the combustion of the hydrogen and oxygen will be... are you sitting down...

exactly equal to the amount of energy it took to break apart the water molecules.

No, I didn't make that up. About 5,000,000 physicists have pretty much verified it for me, though.


So again, alls I ask is that someone explain where the energy to separate the hydrogen from the water comes from, that it produces a surplus to propel a vehicle?

Anyone?


For fuck's sake, crack a book sometime.

[Dinsdale]

if it pisses you off that there's a way to make a car run more effeciently, then I'm just as sorry as I can be.

Few things would make me happier.


And albeit unwittingly, you just moved the goalposts.

There's no doubt that vehicles can be made to run more efficiently. This has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with getting "free energy" from the hydrogen in water... absolutely nothing.

What pisses me off is peoples' lack of basic understanding of how the world around them works on the most basic level.

[Mikey]

Your problem, Dinsdale, is that you don't have an OPEN MIND.

Where would we be today if Galileo and da Vinci didn't have an OPEN MIND?

Seems like no scientists these days have an OPEN MIND. They're only willing to believe what SCIENCE tells them, not willing to believe what their own eyes see.

I mean how much more empirical evidence do you need than a video of a guy pouring water into a bucket and then driving away in his water powered car? You don't expect them to actually explain how it works do you? That would be giving away the farm.

[Mister Bushice]

It might work if you drop some calcium carbide into the water.

That could fuck up the flux capacitor.

[Mikey]

Guess what? Fuck my lure. :D

Sorry...too painful.

[Dinsdale]

[As far as the Japanese car actually running on water - you do some research on it. As it appears you're keenly versed in the chemistry world - YOU should be the one to do as such. YOU get back with us on your findings.

OK, I'm back.

Their schpeil is bullshit.

Isn't it funny how none of these miracle workers will even hint at how they managed to successfully invent that which man has frivolously chased for hundreds of years, namely the Perpetual Motion Machine?

A scientist would share such earth shattering news. A non-scientist doesn't have the knowledge to even pick up two test tubes to rub together on such a monumental project.

If these saviors don't want to be universally laughed at, they need to stop acting like garden-variety scammers... which is what they are.


Neo-environmentalism is 100% pure scam.

[Dinsdale]

but whether or not it's economical to do is another question.

Not much of a question, really.


Sin,
You'll Never Guess Which Law of Thermodynamics



Edit: I'm funnin' ya now. Obviously, there's engine efficiency issues providing many a variable. You still cant pour water into a car and make it go, though

[smackaholic]

mikey, it's called water injection and it ain't anything new. Adding water vapor to a fuel air mixture helps prevent detonation. This allows hot rodders to run higher compression and/or a leaner mixture. Will it make a suburban get 26 mpg? Maybe if it's a diesel and you drive it like an old woman.

[Dinsdale]

Your laws of thermodynamics don't enter into it.

:world'sbiggestrolleyes:


OK, typing slowly now...

The amount of energy released by burning the hydrogen and oxygen will be

THE EXACT SAME AS THE AMOUNT OF ENERGY IT TOOK TO SEPARATE IT.


Unless you realllllllly want to make my day and argue otherwise?

[Mikey]

Guess what? Fuck my lure. :D

Sorry...too painful.

DICK!!!

Hey man (I'll hijack this fucking thread), didn't you say you were at the Cow Palace on 12/31/73 for the ABB show? I was listening to that on Wolfgang's Vault the other day and thought about you. Jesus - did you stay for the whole thing? How late did that fucker run? They had 3 LONG sets on that thing. Man - that would have to be one of the better shows you (or anybody) would have gotten the pleasure of seeing!

Yeah, it lasted until something like 4 a.m. We had to leave at about 2:30 or someting because my friend's date had a curfew (we were HS seniors at the time, she was a soph).

Definitely one of the more memorable shows ever, specially considering the windowpane that was circulating. Does Wolfgang's Vault mention that the opening acts were the Charlie Daniels Band and the Marshal Tucker Band? Not a bad bill there.

[Dinsdale]

Water injection has been around for MANY years. That's more used to cool the gas, etc.

It's used for the exact purpose smackaholic said it was-btw.

[Dinsdale]

Why don't YOU go ahead and C&P whichever part of whichever link explains how they get more energy out of the water than takes to break down the water molecule...


I'll leave the light on for you... since, as Mikey mentioned, it's physically impossible to do.

[Mikey]

I think you need to go and learn what a catalyst is. There is no catalyst that can change the energy balance of a reaction, it can only speed up the reaction.

And hydrogen is NOT a fuel in the strictest sense. It's basically an energy storage and transfer medium.

[Mikey]

it can only speed up the reaction.

In other words, it reduces the activation energy of the reaction.

So? It still doesn't change the energy balance.

[Mikey]

Why is that irrelevant?

There is no catalyst that will separate water into hydrogen and oxygen without a net energy input that's equal to or greater than the energy avialable from the reverse reaction.

I'd say that's pretty relevant.

Look at it this way. To recombine hydrogen and oxygen back into water you have to heat it to a certain temperature to start the oxidation reaction. A catalyst might lower the threshold temperature to start the reaction but it doesn't change the amount of energy avialable from the reaction.

Splitting water requires as much energy input as you can get by recombining it. There's no way around that fact with or without a catalyst.

[Tom In VA]

What if we wear bras on our head ?


Or does that only work when creating a Kelly LeBrock clone ?

[Mikey]

Why is that irrelevant?

Because the question is economic. Hydrogen is an energy carrier. That is beyond dispute. The question then becomes how we make the production of hydrogen and hydrogen powered vehicles economically feasible.

The Japanese toy here is merely a proof of concept not an answer to the question.

It's not a proof of concept unless they have a concept. All they've done is claim that they can pour some water into the car and make it go. If the car runs on hydrogen then there has to be an equal input of energy from somewhere in order to make hydrogen out of the water. Where is that energy coming from? Certainly not the water, and not a "catalyst".

I wonder why they didn't make any mention at all of whatever "technology" they are demonstrating.

What happens to the water that they put in? Does it come back out as water? Water vapor? Is it somehow destroyed and disappears? The whole thing as they have presented it is a total crock.

[fix]

You guys talking about hydrogen powered fuel and increased fuel mileage?

It works, I've personally seen the numbers on trucks equipped with it, first hand. The fuel mileage, once they got the mixture correct, went up considerably.

http://www.dynamicfuel.com/product/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The only downside to it is the initail upfront cost of $14,495.00.

Now on a brand new truck which will run you $100,000 and up, if you plan on keeping it for more than the usual 4-5 year cycle of trade in and running it hard, then the money you'd save in fuel costs, especially at todays pump prices for diesel, would justify the cost of having one installed. It's great technology but the price is still what keeps people from being sold on it and realising the value it will save them over a 5 year period.

[Mister Bushice]

How much is the jetfuel you have to add? Most FT truckers would need to add that every 2-4 weeks.