Too good to be true?

[Mikey]

http://water4gas.com/online-books/userm ... M-004.html

Yeah - it does look like a bit of a happy gay marketing scheme, but this spreads a little light on it.

Like I said - the people I was telling you about it are using it and are getting 26 mpg out of a Suburban.

Regardless if it's silly, appears silly, or whatthefuckever, water has hydrogen in it. Hydrogen can go pop. Ask the Hindenburg.

'spray,

I know you're not an energy wank or anything like that but this is really pretty simple.

H2 (hydrogen) + O (oxygen) <=> H2O (water)

There's a lot more energy in the H2 and O combination apart than there is in the H2O. That's why when you put them together you get heat and water.

To get them apart again you have to add energy, as in electrolysis where you use electricity to separate them. It's physically impossible to get energy out when you split the H2 and the O.

[Mikey]

I think I remember hearing that if you add a small amount of water vapor to the combustion mixture of gasoline and air you can increase the combustion efficiency. Maybe that's what your buddies' Suburban is doing. Or maybe they're actually adding moonshine.

[Dinsdale]

Regardless if it's silly, appears silly, or whatthefuckever, water has hydrogen in it. Hydrogen can go pop. Ask the Hindenburg.

Ask the First Law of Thermodynamics.

And you'll note they didn't call it the "Four Hundred And Thirty Eight Law of Thermodynamics," or any other obscure designation... you'll note it's the first law of thermodynamics.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed.

E = mc^2


The amount of energy lost in a steady state process cannot be greater than the amount of energy gained.


Word it however you like -- it's still a law, until someone proves otherwise.


No, hydrogen doesn't go "pop." It will, quite readily and dramatically, when mixed 2:1 with oxygen and a heat source is introduced.

And yes, water is 2/3rds hydrogen.

Herein lies the rub -- according to the First Law of Thermodynamics, the energy produced by the combustion of the hydrogen and oxygen will be... are you sitting down...

exactly equal to the amount of energy it took to break apart the water molecules.

No, I didn't make that up. About 5,000,000 physicists have pretty much verified it for me, though.


So again, alls I ask is that someone explain where the energy to separate the hydrogen from the water comes from, that it produces a surplus to propel a vehicle?

Anyone?


For fuck's sake, crack a book sometime.

[Dinsdale]

if it pisses you off that there's a way to make a car run more effeciently, then I'm just as sorry as I can be.

Few things would make me happier.


And albeit unwittingly, you just moved the goalposts.

There's no doubt that vehicles can be made to run more efficiently. This has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with getting "free energy" from the hydrogen in water... absolutely nothing.

What pisses me off is peoples' lack of basic understanding of how the world around them works on the most basic level.

[Mikey]

Your problem, Dinsdale, is that you don't have an OPEN MIND.

Where would we be today if Galileo and da Vinci didn't have an OPEN MIND?

Seems like no scientists these days have an OPEN MIND. They're only willing to believe what SCIENCE tells them, not willing to believe what their own eyes see.

I mean how much more empirical evidence do you need than a video of a guy pouring water into a bucket and then driving away in his water powered car? You don't expect them to actually explain how it works do you? That would be giving away the farm.

[Mister Bushice]

It might work if you drop some calcium carbide into the water.

That could fuck up the flux capacitor.

[Mikey]

Guess what? Fuck my lure. :D

Sorry...too painful.

[Dinsdale]

[As far as the Japanese car actually running on water - you do some research on it. As it appears you're keenly versed in the chemistry world - YOU should be the one to do as such. YOU get back with us on your findings.

OK, I'm back.

Their schpeil is bullshit.

Isn't it funny how none of these miracle workers will even hint at how they managed to successfully invent that which man has frivolously chased for hundreds of years, namely the Perpetual Motion Machine?

A scientist would share such earth shattering news. A non-scientist doesn't have the knowledge to even pick up two test tubes to rub together on such a monumental project.

If these saviors don't want to be universally laughed at, they need to stop acting like garden-variety scammers... which is what they are.


Neo-environmentalism is 100% pure scam.

[Dinsdale]

but whether or not it's economical to do is another question.

Not much of a question, really.


Sin,
You'll Never Guess Which Law of Thermodynamics



Edit: I'm funnin' ya now. Obviously, there's engine efficiency issues providing many a variable. You still cant pour water into a car and make it go, though

[smackaholic]

mikey, it's called water injection and it ain't anything new. Adding water vapor to a fuel air mixture helps prevent detonation. This allows hot rodders to run higher compression and/or a leaner mixture. Will it make a suburban get 26 mpg? Maybe if it's a diesel and you drive it like an old woman.

[Dinsdale]

Your laws of thermodynamics don't enter into it.

:world'sbiggestrolleyes:


OK, typing slowly now...

The amount of energy released by burning the hydrogen and oxygen will be

THE EXACT SAME AS THE AMOUNT OF ENERGY IT TOOK TO SEPARATE IT.


Unless you realllllllly want to make my day and argue otherwise?

[Mikey]

Guess what? Fuck my lure. :D

Sorry...too painful.

DICK!!!

Hey man (I'll hijack this fucking thread), didn't you say you were at the Cow Palace on 12/31/73 for the ABB show? I was listening to that on Wolfgang's Vault the other day and thought about you. Jesus - did you stay for the whole thing? How late did that fucker run? They had 3 LONG sets on that thing. Man - that would have to be one of the better shows you (or anybody) would have gotten the pleasure of seeing!

Yeah, it lasted until something like 4 a.m. We had to leave at about 2:30 or someting because my friend's date had a curfew (we were HS seniors at the time, she was a soph).

Definitely one of the more memorable shows ever, specially considering the windowpane that was circulating. Does Wolfgang's Vault mention that the opening acts were the Charlie Daniels Band and the Marshal Tucker Band? Not a bad bill there.

[Dinsdale]

Water injection has been around for MANY years. That's more used to cool the gas, etc.

It's used for the exact purpose smackaholic said it was-btw.

[Dinsdale]

Why don't YOU go ahead and C&P whichever part of whichever link explains how they get more energy out of the water than takes to break down the water molecule...


I'll leave the light on for you... since, as Mikey mentioned, it's physically impossible to do.

[Mikey]

I think you need to go and learn what a catalyst is. There is no catalyst that can change the energy balance of a reaction, it can only speed up the reaction.

And hydrogen is NOT a fuel in the strictest sense. It's basically an energy storage and transfer medium.

[Mikey]

it can only speed up the reaction.

In other words, it reduces the activation energy of the reaction.

So? It still doesn't change the energy balance.

[Mikey]

Why is that irrelevant?

There is no catalyst that will separate water into hydrogen and oxygen without a net energy input that's equal to or greater than the energy avialable from the reverse reaction.

I'd say that's pretty relevant.

Look at it this way. To recombine hydrogen and oxygen back into water you have to heat it to a certain temperature to start the oxidation reaction. A catalyst might lower the threshold temperature to start the reaction but it doesn't change the amount of energy avialable from the reaction.

Splitting water requires as much energy input as you can get by recombining it. There's no way around that fact with or without a catalyst.

[Tom In VA]

What if we wear bras on our head ?


Or does that only work when creating a Kelly LeBrock clone ?

[Mikey]

Why is that irrelevant?

Because the question is economic. Hydrogen is an energy carrier. That is beyond dispute. The question then becomes how we make the production of hydrogen and hydrogen powered vehicles economically feasible.

The Japanese toy here is merely a proof of concept not an answer to the question.

It's not a proof of concept unless they have a concept. All they've done is claim that they can pour some water into the car and make it go. If the car runs on hydrogen then there has to be an equal input of energy from somewhere in order to make hydrogen out of the water. Where is that energy coming from? Certainly not the water, and not a "catalyst".

I wonder why they didn't make any mention at all of whatever "technology" they are demonstrating.

What happens to the water that they put in? Does it come back out as water? Water vapor? Is it somehow destroyed and disappears? The whole thing as they have presented it is a total crock.

[fix]

You guys talking about hydrogen powered fuel and increased fuel mileage?

It works, I've personally seen the numbers on trucks equipped with it, first hand. The fuel mileage, once they got the mixture correct, went up considerably.

http://www.dynamicfuel.com/product/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The only downside to it is the initail upfront cost of $14,495.00.

Now on a brand new truck which will run you $100,000 and up, if you plan on keeping it for more than the usual 4-5 year cycle of trade in and running it hard, then the money you'd save in fuel costs, especially at todays pump prices for diesel, would justify the cost of having one installed. It's great technology but the price is still what keeps people from being sold on it and realising the value it will save them over a 5 year period.

[Mister Bushice]

How much is the jetfuel you have to add? Most FT truckers would need to add that every 2-4 weeks.

[fix]

How much is the jetfuel you have to add? Most FT truckers would need to add that every 2-4 weeks.

One bottle will last you..

"How often is Jetfuel™ added to the Jetstar™ Unit?" Additional Jetfuel™ is to be added every 90 hours or every 5,000 miles of cumulative operation.

Now for your typical team driver operation, that's essentially once a week. It takes all of 10 minutes to do.

As to costs per bottle, depends on the size and scope of your operation. But it's not at all expensive. Especially considering that in today's market, with the ultra low sulphur diesel now being sold at the pumps, the lack of lubricant in the diesel now means you MUST add an additive such as Lucas in order to keep your injectors and top end working.
A bottle of Lucas runs you about $30-40 depending on where you're buying it and a bottle treats approximately 300 gallons, or on most trucks, one complete fill up.
It's the downside of being stuck with having to add additives every time you fuel up and having to pay even more for the ultra low sulphur diesel now on top of it because of tree huggers such as CARB..

But when you factor in that it costs me over $1000 in fuel alone, to fill just one truck of mine up, which most of can easily be burned in a 60 hour work week locally, or good for about 1800 miles tops, every penny counts.

[Mister Bushice]

Hey dude Pm me the shit on that self install. My bro in law is a trucker and he is good with doing mods but I don't think he's heard of this.

He'll probably figure it out for a truck if he knows the basics.

[Mikey]

I wonder why they didn't make any mention at all of whatever "technology" they are demonstrating.

They did....sorta.

It is claimed the Water Energy System (WES) developed by Genepax can generate power by supplying water and air to the fuel and air electrodes. The basic power generation mechanism of the system is similar to that of a standard fuel cell. The main feature of the new system is that it uses a membrane electrode assembly (MEA), which contains a material that breaks down the water to hydrogen and oxygen.

Though the company did not reveal any more detail the company president said that they had "succeeded in adopting a well-known process to produce hydrogen from water to the MEA", similar to the mechanism that produces hydrogen by a reaction of metal hydride and water. However the company claims that compared with the existing method, the new process produces hydrogen from water for a longer time.

These guys are really good at doublespeak.

In the metal hydride reaction the hydrogen comes from the metal hydride, not the water. It's a fairly well-known hydrogen storage technology, not a hydrogen generation technology. The metal hydride is depleted and has to be recycled or recharged with hydrogen when it's used up.

Here's another way of thinking about it.

You start with water. By some process you split it into hydrogen and oxygen. You put it through a fuel cell to generate electricity. The byproduct of the fuel cell is more water.

So look at it like a "black box". You put water in and you get water and energy out. Where is the energy coming from? By conservation of mass and energy it has to come from somewhere. A "catalyst" by its definition is neither changed or depleted by the process that it catalyzes. The energy has to come from somewhere - another input that hasn't been mentioned yet - electricity to split the water, chemical energy from a metal hydride, whatever. Otherwise you have a perpetual motion machine, which is impossible.

Unless you're using up some of the water by somehow by separating deuterium from it and splitting the atoms to produce nuclear energy. I don't think that's the case here.

[Dinsdale]

Mikey, maybe it's time to give up?

These people have obviously found a clever end-around to that pesky law (no, Spray, they're not "theories" -- they're "LAWS," and they have nothing to do with me, outside of my being forever bound to them, same as everyone else).


Dumbfucks... it's the most basic principle of physics, and it's the very foundation of everything else we've learned about physics since then. EVERYTHING. Our modern life of technological advances have all stemmed from that one law that we hold to always be true.


But when there's a buck to be scammed, all of a sudden we're willing to "waive" that basic law of physics?


Serious question -- are you fucking retarded?

"Yeah, but if you introduce a catalyst, the laws of thermodynamics go out the window"... again, are you fucking retarded, or did you take physics class at Disneyland's Fantasyland?


What is absolutely mindboggling to me, is that Mikey is the only one here who seems to have gotten any sort of grasp on his high school education.


You can try and divert the main issue, you can twist and spin all you like... and my question is never going to change -- where are you getting this energy from?

It's a pretty fucking reasonable question, since the source of energy in question is the basis of the entire debate...


So let's try again -- where's this energy to power a vehicle coming from?

I'm still waiting.


So far, I've heard "catalyst," which is not only wrong, it's funny.

The rest of the answers seem dependent on some form of voodoo/magic as a power source.


But frankly, if you really do have an explaination as to how you've managed to find loopholes in the First Law of Thermodynamics, don't even bother posting here... I'll get your whole schpeil when you're explaining it to the Nobel Committee, and since you'll be the most famous human to ever live, and will probably edge out Jesus in the Savior Power Rankings, I'll just catch up with you at that time.


But if any of you can actually spare the hyperbole and stupidity, and actually outline where the energy to propel the vehicle comes from, I'm all ears... still.

[bbqjones]

But if any of you can actually spare the hyperbole and stupidity, and actually outline where the energy to propel the vehicle comes from, I'm all ears... still.

and tommysbookmarks.com

[Wolfman]

But when there's a buck to be scammed, all of a sudden we're willing to "waive" that basic law of physics?

^^^^^^^^^
Got that right !

Reminds me of when a guy came to the town I used to live in---claimed he had developed a "special battery" that could run a car for about 300 miles and get a quick recharge in about the length of time it took you to fill your gas tank.
Several well off folks in town ponied up some $$$ to get it started. They actually believed it would be just the thing the area and their bank accounts needed for financial success. Needless to say.
If there is a resident chemist around here, they could 'splain how those hydrocarbon molecules have all that potential energy that requires very small input to release. Gas/oil is the "alternate fuel" for us. Drill now--drill often--pay less !!

[Mikey]

Drill now--drill often--feel better!!

Somebody should drill a hole in your fucking forehead.

Seriously.

[Cuda]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOvp69lnZbA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Mikey]

That model is what, 3 or 4 years old?

The second generation Prius is quite a bit different.

[Tom In VA]

Drill now--drill often--feel better!!

Somebody should drill a hole in your fucking forehead.

Seriously.

Why because he's recommending we let American companies drill for oil ? Why not ? These great ideas are great, but until they're mass produced at a level where the "common man" has access to them, shouldn't we tap our own oil resources ?

[Smackie Chan]

Drill now--drill often--feel better!!

Somebody should drill a hole in your fucking forehead.

Seriously.

Why because he's recommending we let American companies drill for oil ?

I was thinkin' just on general principle, which is good enough for me.

[Tom In VA]

Maybe it was age smack and Wolfman is old enough to have groomed with WIldroot Cream Oil or Vitalis and Mikey thinks there's oil inside his head.

[Smackie Chan]

Maybe it was age smack and Wolfman is old enough to have groomed with WIldroot Cream Oil or Vitalis and Mikey thinks there's oil inside his head.

Hmmm...a potential wildcat well from Wolfman's dome. Sounds like dogs & cats, living together...MASS HYSTERIA!!

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Maybe it was age smack and Wolfman is old enough to have groomed with WIldroot Cream Oil or Vitalis and Mikey thinks there's oil inside his head.

I say we place sanctions on Wolfman.

A strict Oil For Smack program, until he comes up with good takes.