so - you were saying, mvscal?

[Dinsdale]

Bushice plungered himself again?


Man, never saw that coming.

But feel free to contunue trying to somehow equate my lifestyle with other peoples' personal responsibility and choices... I mean, it makes perfect sense, right? If the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog, and all.

[Mister Bushice]

I musta missed the part in the constitution where it says you get to live in the bay area, in a nice neighborhood if that's what you want.

News flash!!! There are parts of the country where there exists good paying jobs, good schools and affordable housing. Many other folks have discovered this and moved there.

So you're willing to move your family far away from all of your relatives and friends so that you'll only get to see them on holidays and MAYBE in the summer for a week? Do that. Let me know how much they appreciate relocating to a place where they don't know a fucking soul and are too far away to make a weekend or day trip to visit anyone they do know.

Oh and NEWS FLASH - The Bay Area is not the only expensive place to live.

[BSmack]

Can't we just agree that oil companies are raping us AND that anyone who takes on a mortgage at 5 to 10 times their annual income is not very smart?

[Y2K]

Needless to say...
If you have to commute long hours or live in a shithole you do not have have a "good paying job."

[Mister Bushice]

Can't we just agree that oil companies are raping us AND that anyone who takes on a mortgage at 5 to 10 times their annual income is not very smart?

So lets say you get offered an awesome job doing exactly what you want to do but the cost of living/quality of life in that area ( be it New York, Boston, LA, Bay area, Atlanta, etc.) is not what you can afford / want to deal with, however you CAN get an affordable house in a great community that will mean a commute for you but will keep the family close enough to their relatives and friends to make a weekend getaway no problem.

OR - you get another job offer, just as awesome, but that one is a plane flight away from everyone you know, but the area housing is affordable and you would not have to drive at all, because the Dinsdale Busline, like his mouth, runs all the time.

So do you make your whole family sacrifice and move so that they only get to see grandparents, cousins, family and friends for maybe 2 weeks a year, or make the sacrifice yourself so that your family gets both?

Perhaps Cliffy can just pick up and run, since there are nameless heifers everywhere. The question gets a little harder to answer when you have family and roots, and people you care for / care for you that you want to see more often than just on holidays.

[Dinsdale]

Bushice, you're truly freaking clueless... truly.


What I suggest, is that everyone makes the best decisions for them and theirs.

But at least one of your choices involves making fuel prices to a great degree influence your personal wealth.

That is a CHOICE.


And if you make the decision to put your family in a position that allows the oil industry to take a good chunk of your family's wealth, then you chose poorly.

But I don't really care what you choose... just don't bitch to everyone else about the choices YOU made.


Why is that so fucking difficult?


Again -- I made choices to limit my "contributions" to the oil companies. If I was married and/or had children, it in no way limits my ability to make those same choices.


Easy to sit back and bitch about oil comapanies... seems quite en vogue these days, really. But that's what losers do... bitch about it. I CHOOSE to actually do something about it, within the limited abilities I have to do so.


You CHOOSE to take a defeatist attitude and bitch. I CHOOSE to adapt to the modern landscape, and adjust things accordingly.

Social Darwinism will sort things out.

[Mister Bushice]

Needless to say...
If you have to commute long hours or live in a shithole you do not have have a "good paying job."

Are you kidding me? Pick a major city that isn't expensive to live in. And I don't mean a shitty apartment in a working class neighborhood. I mean the decent neighborhoods.

Why do you think there was a housing boom outside of LA in the inland empire, outside of the Bay Area south and east, and outside of Boston and Atlanta?

Because people could not afford quality housing, but that's where the good paying jobs are, not in buttfuck Salinas, or Manteca.

They called it "White flight" It's not uncommon, been going on for decades:

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-white-flight.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jesus - don't you live in the Fresneck area? look at what happened out there, with those mansions being built northeast outside of the city. Granted the commutes aren't usually over an hour, but the concept is the same. The heart of Fresno is a crime and gang ridden shithole, AND its expensive.

Do you know that in 2005, you couldn't touch a 2,000 sq. ft cookie cutter tract home in Salinas for under 750K? What else is out there? Farms and a mall. Plus, the demand for new housing in a safe neighborhood that didn't exist in san jose for the same price.

The jobs that pay enough to buy that overpriced house are one hour and 20 minutes drive north in silicon valley, and people who came into the Bay Area to work those jobs that pay 6 figures found out that 750k in Palo Alto buys you a 900 sq foot townhouse, (really just a glorified apartment), so they decided they'd skip that pseudo "apartment home" shit, skip past the run down crime areas nearby where homes are affordable, and make the commute.

Maybe if you'd ever seen those places, you'd know what I mean. OC mike ran into it when he got a far better job in the bay area than the one he had in Texas, and yet as far as I know, he's still renting a room where his job is in PA, and his family is still in Texas.

[bbqjones]

Again -- I made choices to limit my "contributions" to the oil companies. If I was married and/or had children, it in no way limits my ability to make those same choices.

l. to r. dinsdale "roommate" , paul giamatti

[Dinsdale]

Do you know that in 2005, you couldn't touch a 2,000 sq. ft cookie cutter tract home in Salinas for under 750K?

NEWSFLASH -- it's 2008.

The market is being corrected, eh?

Funny how that works... if something is unaffordable, people stop buying it... kinda like gasoline.



And for every example of "white flight" you cite, I'll raise you two examples of "gentrification."

Shit all sorts itself out.

[Mister Bushice]

What I suggest, is that everyone makes the best decisions for them and theirs.

But at least one of your choices involves making fuel prices to a great degree influence your personal wealth.

That is a CHOICE.

And if you make the decision to put your family in a position that allows the oil industry to take a good chunk of your family's wealth, then you chose poorly.

That was not the case, even a year ago. Oil was $60 a barrel at the beginning of 2007. Fuel was not a concern, and it had not been a concern for decades. It was around $25 / barrel in the early 80's and only $40 in early 2004, so it took two decades to double, then it took four years to triple from there.

Anyone going forward from the past 8 months who is dumb enough to choose to chain themselves to a long commute - certainly. They have their head up their ass if they can't afford it, but for everyone else working a job for many years that they cannot quit without losing a significant pension who has been commuting with no financial pinch for 10 years doesn't fit your equation.

Easy to sit back and bitch about oil comapanies... seems quite en vogue these days, really. But that's what losers do... bitch about it. I CHOOSE to actually do something about it, within the limited abilities I have to do so.

Granted you have limited abilities. That's been made clear over the years here.

You also have no dependents, are approaching middle age and are geographically situated to suit yourself with the complete freedom to uproot at anytime.

Congratulations. You represent an almost unmeasurable percentage of your age demographic.

You CHOOSE to take a defeatist attitude and bitch. I CHOOSE to adapt to the modern landscape, and adjust things accordingly.

Social Darwinism will sort things out.

Does this mean we'll all eventually get shit sucked off our dicks by some drunk fat bar hag? Oh, Goody.

[Mister Bushice]

Do you know that in 2005, you couldn't touch a 2,000 sq. ft cookie cutter tract home in Salinas for under 750K?

NEWSFLASH -- it's 2008.

The market is being corrected, eh?

Funny how that works... if something is unaffordable, people stop buying it... kinda like gasoline.



And for every example of "white flight" you cite, I'll raise you two examples of "gentrification."

Shit all sorts itself out.

Certainly the gas prices are shifting things back towards more gentrification. But it's all a cycle and will roll back around again.

But you trying to claim everyone has the same easy choices as some unattached loner like yourself is pure bullshit.

[Dinsdale]

Does this mean we'll all eventually get shit sucked off our dicks by some drunk fat bar hag?

She wasn't fat.


Again, you seem oddly fixated on my lifestyle.

Very odd.


I guess I should be flattered that you use me as an example of freedom while you excuse other peoples' stupid fucking decisions.


You're a fucking moron. An hour-plus commute is a stupid fucking idea. It was stupid fucking idea 3 years ago, it was a stupid fucking idea 20 years ago. If someone made that stupid fucking decision 20 years ago, then did nothing to remedy that stupid fucking decision in 20 years, they can now lie in the bed of shortsighted stupidity that they made for themselves and their family... the family they decided it was best to spend an extra two hours away from 5 days a week in the name of a "better neighborhood."


And I still don't want to hear them whining about their own choices... sans gun to the head.

[Mister Bushice]

Can't we just agree that oil companies are raping us

Exxon's net margin is about 11%.It's a nice profit, but hardly excessive.

Yeah? 18.7 Billion in profits last year by Exxon ALONE is "Hardly excessive"? WTF planet are you living on?

High crude prices aren't doing them any favors when they have to buy 55% of the oil they refine on the spot market.

Imagine, having to do all that work AND only making 18 billion in profit? How can they be expected to live on that?

It's a good thing they can get through these troubled times by using that money to buy back stock, making their own stock more valuable. Poor fellas.

[Dinsdale]

Yeah? 18.7 Billion in profits last year by Exxon ALONE is "Hardly excessive"? WTF planet are you living on?

I'm living on the planet where no one gives a fuck what Bushice thinks is "excessive."


The view is great up here-btw. You should come visit us sometime.


Don't like Exxon's profits?

Stop buying their product.

[Y2K]

Jesus - don't you live in the Fresneck area? look at what happened out there, with those mansions being built northeast outside of the city. Granted the commutes aren't usually over an hour, but the concept is the same. The heart of Fresno is a crime and gang ridden shithole, AND its expensive.

Sure enough, I live in one of those Northeast Fresno homes with a beautiful view of the Sierra's
Oustanding schools, Pool, 50 acre lake, tennis courts and all kinds of neato stuff and very little crime...Why you ask?

My wife makes the same salary as her co-workers working in Pleasanton, Woodland Hills, San Diego or Sacramento. She's has a 5 minute commute to work. My salary is also equally comparible to the aforementioned cities. A home with 3000 sq ft in a gated community with a pool sells in a good market at $500 grand and you can commute anywhere in the city in less than 20 minutes. What the hell is expensive about that, Christ my house payment is $1100 a month with Taxes and Insurance with no need to move up. You might just wanna recalculate "expensive." We do love it when all those folks with "good paying jobs" in the Paradise cities cry for wage hikes though, it's better than a stimulus check from Uncle Sam.
I used that to pay down next semesters college fees for the oldest daughter at Fresno State. The only time I ever see the shitholes downtown is from the elevated freeway. It's not the U&L but it works for me and BTW, there isn't any foreclosure problems in my neighborhood...Fancy that.

[Mister Bushice]

She wasn't fat.

Oh? That part wasn't in the christmas tale you told

Again, you seem oddly fixated on my lifestyle.

Very odd.

Not really. You're the one touting it as example of how everyone can so easily manage their lives, as if you represent even a fraction of the average person your age. You don't.
And - you make it a point to blab on about your "lifestyle" on a weekly basis here. It's hardly a mystery. More like a sad joke worth piling on.

You're a fucking moron. An hour-plus commute is a stupid fucking idea. It was stupid fucking idea 3 years ago, it was a stupid fucking idea 20 years ago. If someone made that stupid fucking decision 20 years ago, then did nothing to remedy that stupid fucking decision in 20 years, they can now lie in the bed of shortsighted stupidity that they made for themselves and their family... the family they decided it was best to spend an extra two hours away from 5 days a week in the name of a "better neighborhood."

My father made that choice. He moved us out of the city, to a house in the burbs. Great affordable private school, our own backyard. Great neighbors not too close. He commuted an hour to work each day each way for 30 years. During the 70's gas crunch, he and 3 coworkers carpooled. There wasn't that option when he decided to move out there, as he was the first to do so.

So instead of living in the city in a rundown apartment or a shitty house in a lousy neighborhood I got the chance to grow up in a great place because my Father decided it was a better option for his family. Far enough, yet still close enough for family visits.

A cousin close in age to me came out every summer to stay with us when we were a little older, to get away from the summer heat and the crime, and the bedroom he shared with his two brothers. The stories he told me of what he had to deal with everyday in the city at school didn't sound like anything I wanted to deal with.

By the time we were all through college, my dad sold that house for 20 times what he bought it for and retired to a beach community. I never once heard him bitch about any of it.

Yeah. Him buying that house was a REAL Fucking stupid idea.

[Mister Bushice]

Actually their profit last year was 40 billion not 18.7.

Yeah My bad, 18.7 was chevrons. They didn't do so well.

I wonder if he also considers the 30 billion dollars Exxon paid in income taxes excessive as well.

Handwringing emo dipshits like that don't seem to understand that with record profits come record tax payments.

Yes well the record profits didn't become records until the gas prices soared through the roof. Connect the fucking dots.

[Dinsdale]

And how's that 401K looking after these big oil profits?


I have a beef with Big Oil... kind of.

My beef isn't with the companies, it's with government corruption dating back to the early days of the oil business that gave certain parties a better chance at the "free market" than others... which we have a chance to correct in the emerging alternative markets... but you won't do that with your votes.


But Exxon sells gas. I buy gas. I don't see where our relationship should go any farther than that.

[Dinsdale]

Yes well the record profits didn't become records until the gas prices soared through the roof. Connect the fucking dots.

OK, I'll connect them...

The largest (or very close to) company in the world had an increase in demend for their highly sought-after product, and they made the most money?


Color me shocked... really.


How about Walmart? They made 11 billion last year by harvesting the export of American jobs... should we put a windfall tax on them, too?

[BSmack]

Can't we just agree that oil companies are raping us AND that anyone who takes on a mortgage at 5 to 10 times their annual income is not very smart?

So lets say you get offered an awesome job doing exactly what you want to do but the cost of living/quality of life in that area ( be it New York, Boston, LA, Bay area, Atlanta, etc.) is not what you can afford / want to deal with, however you CAN get an affordable house in a great community that will mean a commute for you but will keep the family close enough to their relatives and friends to make a weekend getaway no problem.

OR - you get another job offer, just as awesome, but that one is a plane flight away from everyone you know, but the area housing is affordable and you would not have to drive at all, because the Dinsdale Busline, like his mouth, runs all the time.

So do you make your whole family sacrifice and move so that they only get to see grandparents, cousins, family and friends for maybe 2 weeks a year, or make the sacrifice yourself so that your family gets both?

Perhaps Cliffy can just pick up and run, since there are nameless heifers everywhere. The question gets a little harder to answer when you have family and roots, and people you care for / care for you that you want to see more often than just on holidays.

Bushice,

Try these stats on for size.

Monroe County, (NY)

Median household income in 2005: $45,748
2005 median house value: $119,500

San Francisco County, (CA)

Median household income in 2005: $57,496
2005 median house value: $726,700

Should it shock anybody that you've got a hell of a lot more foreclosures in the Bay Area than we do in Rochester? Sorry, people making 57k should not be buying houses that cost 726k. Yet that's exactly the kind of shit that was happening out in your neck of the woods because banks were willing to give loans to people who were basically turning their homes into pieces of a ponzi scheme.

[Wolfman]

banks were willing to give loans to people who were basically turning their homes into pieces of a ponzi scheme.

Why did these banks make such risky loans ? When I bought my first home the rule of thumb was 2.5 X your annual income and you needed in the ball park of 20% down---and not counting a second income by your spouse ! Who changed the "rules" ?

[PSUFAN]

my house payment is $1100 a month with Taxes and Insurance

On a $500K house? Or the "condo" over the garage?

[Mister Bushice]

Bushice,

Try these stats on for size.

Monroe County, (NY)

Median household income in 2005: $45,748
2005 median house value: $119,500

San Francisco County, (CA)

Median household income in 2005: $57,496
2005 median house value: $726,700

Should it shock anybody that you've got a hell of a lot more foreclosures in the Bay Area than we do in Rochester? Sorry, people making 57k should not be buying houses that cost 726k. Yet that's exactly the kind of shit that was happening out in your neck of the woods because banks were willing to give loans to people who were basically turning their homes into pieces of a ponzi scheme.

San Francisco is not a good comparative example, as the foreclosure rate there is not even in the top 75 nationwide, and many, many homes there are and have been family owned for decades, and many others there are owned by very wealthy people. The income ratio is also skewed, because most people who work in San Francisco don't own property there, they live across the bay or rent an apartment in the city. I'd guess the income of the average SF worker bee who lives in the east bay (a 35 minute train ride) is fairly equivalent to the housing prices over there. I wouldn't live there, though.

Still, the housing prices in SF are beyond comprehension, have been for as long as I recall and will continue to be, because there is nowhere left to build there and yet there is a thriving commercial district.

I seriously hope this discussion does not trigger an .m2ool bay area reset.

[BSmack]

banks were willing to give loans to people who were basically turning their homes into pieces of a ponzi scheme.

Why did these banks make such risky loans ? When I bought my first home the rule of thumb was 2.5 X your annual income and you needed in the ball park of 20% down---and not counting a second income by your spouse ! Who changed the "rules" ?

You're welcome.

sin

[BSmack]

Bushice,

The median household income stats I cited were for people who LIVE in said counties, not commuters.

http://www.city-data.com/county/San_Fra ... ty-CA.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[War Wagon]

How the fuck did this thread evolve from - The oil companies are robber barons aided and abetted by the Bush/Cheney cabal - into - My House/Area/Income is waay better than yours, dude

Ponderous.

[Mister Bushice]

Bushice,

The median household income stats I cited were for people who LIVE in said counties, not commuters.

http://www.city-data.com/county/San_Fra ... ty-CA.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes but look at the rental rate. It's nearly TWICE the ownership rate. The renters skew that earnings data way down. Owning multiple unit rental property in SF is $$$. There just aren't enough places to live vs the # of jobs available there. It's not unusual for people who own a 10 unit apartment building in SF to pull in
250K a year in rents.

Besides that,

Look at Rochester NY, in MONROE County. It has a higher foreclosure rate than SF, around 25% higher, and these numbers are even lower and closer than monroe county itself:

Estimated median household income in 2005:
Rochester $26,650

Estimated median house/condo value in 2005:
Rochester $62,800

How did these dumbfucks lose their houses?

[Wolfman]

sup Bri ??

[Mister Bushice]

Yes well the record profits didn't become records until the gas prices soared through the roof. Connect the fucking dots.

I provided three years worth of financial data, tard. Their net margin has been right around 11%

Nothing wrong with that number, don't act like their below a poverty line. Three years performing around that level? That's better than the entire airline industry combined.

Besides, they helped create that margin by reducing refining capacity. You can't hold them blameless.

. What part of Exxon has to buy 55% of the crude they refine on the spot market hasn't sunk in through your thick, pointy skull yet, you fucking simpleton?

So? That's because they didn't reinvest any of those profits back into exploration, so they have to buy spot market oil. In the short term exploration and drilling may have been more expensive, but in the long term? No.

[War Wagon]

Three years performing around that level? That's better than the entire airline industry combined.

I'd suggest you buy some Exxon stock.

[BSmack]

Bushice,

First off, I should apologize. I reflexively interchanged "Rochester" with "Monroe County". It's something we suburban Monroe County residents do all the time. Rochester is but 1/3 of the metro area that is Monroe County. Which, as of the latest estimates, has 733,366 people. You may recognize that as being pretty damn close to the total population of San Francisco County. Which is why I drew the comparison between the two Counties. What you're trying to do is like comparing whatever shithole neighborhood m2 lives in to a whole metro area. And to the extent I contributed to your error, I am sorry.

BTW: Check out the latest Realty Trac stats. The whole state of California is getting pounded by foreclosures. What you said about old money and family ties might be holding San Francisco together. But the reality that a 10-1 property price to income ratio isn't a good thing.

http://www.realtytrac.com/ContentManage ... ccnt=64847" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Smackie Chan]

Three years performing around that level? That's better than the entire airline industry combined.

Dude, you're all over the place, and nowhere you land is good. Using raw numbers of profit dollars rather than percentages of revenue to claim excess? Neglecting the fact that publicly owned companies are beholden to their shareholders? Now this - comparing apples to pork chops? So what if what one industry has a higher margin than another; happens all the time. Are you arguing that there should be a standard profit margin to which all industries should be held?

You're flailing. But doing a top-notch job of it, so you got that goin' for you, which is nice.

[Mister Bushice]

Three years performing around that level? That's better than the entire airline industry combined.

Dude, you're all over the place, and nowhere you land is good. Using raw numbers of profit dollars rather than percentages of revenue to claim excess? Neglecting the fact that publicly owned companies are beholden to their shareholders?

Of course they are, but not by A: manipulating the marketplace to drive up prices. B: using profits from that manipulation to buy back stock to C: drive up stock value that D: also goes into lining the pockets of the corporate officers.

Do you consider that the CEO of Exxon getting $16 million in stock option awards in 2007 on top of $1.75 million in salary, a $3.36 million bonus is justified, given the method they used to get to that money?

Now this - comparing apples to pork chops? So what if what one industry has a higher margin than another; happens all the time. Are you arguing that there should be a standard profit margin to which all industries should be held?

No. My point was mvscal was inferring that 11 percent was not very good. That is simply not true. compared to the airline industry, it is far greater. Microsoft has a far greater PM even than that, but lets not go there right now. Bottom line is 11% profit margin is not slumming by a long shot.

You're flailing. But doing a top-notch job of it, so you got that goin' for you, which is nice.

Thanks. :)

It's a complicated picture taken as a whole, and includes market manipulation driving production down to drive profit margins up, and investing those profits into buybacks.

Legal? Sure.

But it was done at our expense, and we have few options. We have choices to go to baseball games, watch baseball games, and buy gear that goes to paying players salaries. no manipulation of the public there. Baseball won't drive me to work.

That is the part that's wrong.
Nothing wrong with reasonable profit. Everything is wrong with unethical business practices that generate more profit than normal at the expense of the American public.

[Sirfindafold]

[Smackie Chan]

Do you consider that the CEO of Exxon getting $16 million in stock option awards in 2007 on top of $1.75 million in salary, a $3.36 million bonus is justified, given the method they used to get to that money?

Who am I, and who are you, to determine what is justified? If those figures are unjustifiable to you, please tell us what the upper limits of justification are.

My point was mvscal was inferring that 11 percent was not very good. That is simply not true. compared to the airline industry, it is far greater. Microsoft has a far greater PM even than that, but lets not go there right now. Bottom line is 11% profit margin is not slumming by a long shot.

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anything in what mvscal posted that indicated 11% was good or bad. And the only determinants of that should be the company's past performance and how it stacks up against other companies in the same industry! You can't legitimately compare margins among different industries to make a determination of good or bad.

Legal? Sure.

At this point, it's essentially "case closed." Until "ethical" (however that's defined) and "legal" become synonymous, as long as they are doing everything above board legally, everything is justifiable.

But it was done at our expense, and we have few options.

Few options is different than no options. If you have few options, you still have options.

Nothing wrong with reasonable profit. Everything is wrong with unethical business practices that generate more profit than normal at the expense of the American public.

Your problem is that your presenting your arguments with nebulous and undefined adjectives. Who is the arbiter of what constitutes reasonable, unethical, and normal? You? If so, lay them out for the rest of the class.

[BSmack]

What I said about Exxon's margin was:

Exxon's net margin is about 11%. It's a nice profit, but hardly excessive or even very remarkable for that matter.

You can bury a lot of shit in the books before you get to "net profit". Which is about all I can say since neither you or I are about to pour through Exxon's shareholder and SEC reports anytime soon.

[Biggie]

I CHOOSE to live next to a major bus line. I CHOOSE to take it whenever possible. I CHOOSE to work where I do at present.

I was INVITED to live next to a major bus line.

[Dinsdale]

Glad my TSB/Whatever the hell board the football folks used for a while reset wasn't completely lost.