So how overrated is Jeter?

[TheJON]

Your points are all ridiculously stupid so why would anyone want to waste time on it?

Sure, nice try. So you're saying a guy with an average of 16 HR's, 75 RBI's, 0 MVP's, 8 RBI's in 32 world series games is deserving of 1st ballot HOFer? How exactly are my arguments ridiculous? I just threw up facts right in front of your face and none of you can dispute those facts. My argument is simply this......his numbers aren't good enough to be a 1st ballot HOFer and neither is the fact that he's NEVER been one of the best players in the game at any point in time in his career. And that argument is ridiculous?? Jesus effing Christ, mang......learn to think for yourself. ESPN has all you fuckers brainwashed. My goodness.

This thread should be entered into the "Dumbfuck Hall of Fame" immediately.

Along with every other thread you've posted in, RJ????


The fact remains. None of you have given a single argument as to why Jeter is so good. You just say "he's super awesome, he bangs hot skanks, he's great cuz I say so, OMGZ!" Even M Club's argument of getting to 3,000 hits is kinda overrated. Yeah, I see how everyone with 3,000 hits gets in early. But the 3,000 hit plateau is more overrated than having a bunch of tackles in football. Yes, you have to be a good player to get to 3,000 hits. No doubt about that. But more importantly, you need to be lucky enough to stay healthy long enough to get to 3,000 hits OR be fortunate enough that pitchers will actually pitch to you. Just ask Barry Bonds. 3,000 hits is impressive, but it's an overrated number. Just because you get to 3,000 hits doesn't mean you were a GREAT player. It doesn't mean you WEREN'T a great player. But many of the best players of all-time never got to 3,000 hits. 65% of getting to 3,000 is simply luck. The rest is skill. So it's overrated.

[M Club]

you should consider offering insurance to cover stupid takes on message boards. that last paragraph of yours just illustrated why a bunch of brainwashed hacks are still more intelligent than you. 3000 hits is eee-zay, though i'm confused about what we're supposed to ask barry bonds.

[TheJON]

I didn't say it was easy, but luck is a big factor. Like I said, the ONLY reason Jeter has ANY case whatsoever of being a Hall of Famer is the 3,000. Because of that fact, he doesn't deserve a 1st ballot induction. The Barry Bonds comment was made because it just goes to show that health and having pitchers actually pitch to you are the 2 biggest factors in reaching 3,000. The rest is skill, yes, but the biggest factor is luck. Would you like to argue that point???

[Rack Fu]

The rest is skill, yes, but the biggest factor is luck. Would you like to argue that point???

You're saying that luck is more a factor than skill in a player reaching 3,000 hits and you're begging us to argue that point with you???

Fucking priceless! Holy christ!

[TheJON]

You're saying that luck is more a factor than skill in a player reaching 3,000 hits and you're begging us to argue that point with you???

Derek Jeter is going to get to 3,000 hits. Barry Bonds is not (granted, he's only a few shy). It took George Brett about 20 years to get to 3,000 because of injuries. Had he stayed healthy every year, he would have had probably 3,500 or maybe more. A lot of great hitters never get to 3,000 because of bad luck or not being able to be pitched to enough.

I'm not saying 3,000 hits isn't an outstanding accomplishment. It is. But if you think luck isn't a HUGE factor in getting to 3,000 you're flat out wrong.

Take Albert Pujols for example. I suppose he has an outside shot at 3,000 but most likely he'll end his career in about 8-9 years with 2,700-2,800 hits. That's how I'd project him. You have to factor in his skills will start diminishing in about 4 years and he's going to continue being walked more and more. So his chances of 3,000 are pretty slim.

Or take Dave Winfield as an example. He was a very good player, but was he really GREAT? He had some pretty good luck. Stayed relatively healthy for a long time and because of it he was able to get to 3,000 hits. Longevity got him to 3,000. He wasn't a first ballot HOFer. Granted, it's hard to compare players from separate generations but the player in today's game I'd most compare Winfield to is Derrek Lee in terms of numbers. D-Lee is a pretty darn good ballplayer, but he's not going to get a sniff at the HOF.

Baseball has these records for longevity that people use to assess their opinions on a certain player. Longevity numbers are overrated. The 500 HR club is an overrated club because it doesn't really prove what you did OVERALL as a ballplayer. Reggie Jackson was the most overrated player ever. He was a great postseason performer, but overall he wasn't anything special. The only reason he got into the 500 Club is because he hung around about 6 years too long and racked up maybe an extra 100 or so HR's just to get into the HOF. Reggie could do nothing else besides hit HR's. He'd hit .260 with 30 HR's, and drive in 90-110 RBI's and strikeout about 8,000 times.

Here's another example....

Ken Griffey Jr. We'd all agree he's probably the best overall player of our generation, right? Not gonna come very close to 3,000. If he comes back next year maybe he gets to 2,800 but that's it. Why? Because of injury. If he stays healthy during his tenure in Cincinnati, he's got 3,500 hits minimum to go along with his 600+ HR's, MVP, 10 gold gloves, Rookie of the Year, and 4 HR crowns.

But the fact of the matter is if you take away Jeter's luck factor, he's just another good ballplayer. He has nothing else besides the fact he's probably going to get to 3,000 hits. His power numbers are merely average. His defense is merely above average. He's got virtually no awards. He's never been amongst the best players at any point in time in his career. So let's say Jeter wasn't so lucky and suffered 1 or 2 fluke injuries that 90% of all baseball players have and missed 50-60 games a couple of times in his career. Now tell me what your argument for his HOF induction would be, especially on the first ballot??

So you can't tell me how much luck plays into getting to 3,000.

[Rack Fu]

You just don't get it.

[M Club]

the only reason cal ripken broke lou gehrig's record is because he was able to stay injury-free. other than that he was serviceable.

it just goes to show you that espn can only brainwash those with brains to begin with.

[TheJON]

the only reason cal ripken broke lou gehrig's record is because he was able to stay injury-free. other than that he was serviceable.

it just goes to show you that espn can only brainwash those with brains to begin with.

Oh come on now, I never said Jeter was just serviceable. I'll take him on my team anyday. Jeter is a heck of a ballplayer. You guys are making it out to seem like I'm trying to say Jeter is a piece of crap. He's far from it. I even said I'd put him in the HOF. But I'm sorry, the guy has never been amongst the best players in the game and if you ask me where he ranks throughout his era it's maybe the 20th best player. Hey, if you think that's 1st ballot worthy than so be it. That's your opinion. I can live with that. I just don't. To me, a 1st ballot HOFer was truly a GREAT ballplayer throughout their career. Not just some consistently good ballplayer. Like I said, he's in that 2nd tier of players- always has been. You cannot argue that. If you think that's deserving of a 1st ballot, fine. I don't.

He's not Griffey, he's not The Big Skirt, he's not Pujols, he's not Vlad, he's not Bonds.

Again, M Club......you were the one that originally brought up the 3,000 hit argument. So take away the potential 3,000 hits he's going to get and what's your argument for him?? 16 HR's and 75 RBI's in this era is nothing special. About 40 players in baseball every year accomplish that. .315 is very impressive, I'll give you that but I'd rather have a guy batting .280 with 30 HR's 120 RBI's and 40 doubles than a guy that bats .315 mostly in singles. If your argument is "dude's a winner" than 1.You don't follow a lot of baseball and 2.You better put guys like Bernie, Posada and O'Neill in the HOF too. They were on the same teams as Jeter.

Fact is the guy is overrated because ESPN (and other media outlets) play him off like he's some sort of 1990's/2000's version of Willie Mays. He's a damn fine ballplayer, but he's just not an ELITE player and no matter how hard you try you can't possibly argue that ESPN has him slotted correctly in terms of best players in the game.

[TheJON]

By the way.....

MVP's...

Ripken 2
Jeter 0

So I have no problem with him being a 1st ballot HOFer.

[M Club]

ripken was the antecedent in my previous post, meaning he's the he in "he was serviceable".

i've said that assuming jeter reaches 3000 hits he will be a first-ballot hof'er. there's well established precedent for that, which you willfully fail to see and instead denigrate an achievement only ~25 players have reached as more luck than skill. if you want to bring luck into the argument then i'll bring reductio ad absurdum: it's mostly luck that players in the 3000-hit club managed to perform at an elite level for so long; it's mostly luck they weren't prone to george brett-like health; it's mostly luck they're 6'3" and run 4.4 40s; it's mostly luck they have two arms; it's mostly luck they were even born in the first place.

most people realize 16 home runs and 80 rbis aren't enough to get you into the hall [cough george brett cough]. 3000 hits, however, is. jeter could hit 1 home run a year and stll get in his first go because of that number. it stands on its own merit, no matter how many other players "would have" 3000 hits if they weren't injured or were good enough to play at the level jeter's been playing at for 13 years now.

that mvp argument of yours is nearly as retarded as your arguments about luck.

[TheJON]

it stands on its own merit, no matter how many other players "would have" 3000 hits if they weren't injured or were good enough to play at the level jeter's been playing at for 13 years now.

That's laughable. Come on now, "if they were good enough to play at the level Jeter's been playing at for 13 years"??? Yeah, because Ken Griffey Jr and Barry Bonds just couldn't quite make it to Jeter's level......

that mvp argument of yours is nearly as retarded as your arguments about luck.

Now you're saying my MVP argument is retarded??? GREAT players win multiple MVP's. If Jeter is so darn great why isn't he ever really in contention for MVP's? He's super duper awesome and stuff, so certainly an "elite" player would be able to beat out namby pambies like A-Rod or Griffey for an MVP maybe once in a career, wouldn't they???

i've said that assuming jeter reaches 3000 hits he will be a first-ballot hof'er. there's well established precedent for that, which you willfully fail to see

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Winfield get in on his 3rd or 4th try? I'm fairly certain on that.

Let me ask you this....

If you were an opposing manager, had runners at 2nd and 3rd with the tying run being at 2nd and Jeter at the plate- 2 outs bottom of the 9th. Who is the BEST hitter in Jeter's era you would even consider walking Jeter to get to? (This doesn't have to be a Yankee, just a hypothetical). I'll say this much, the type of player that any manager ever (except maybe Buddy Bell cuz he's a retard) would walk Jeter to face is a lot crappier than the type of player you'd walk a guy like A-Rod or Griffey to face. So give me a few players. The reason I'm asking this is because GREAT players don't get pitched to in key RBI situations. Jeter always has and always will because he doesn't really scare opposing pitchers. They're much more afraid of what's behind him.

[Goober McTuber]

Take Albert Pujols for example. I suppose he has an outside shot at 3,000 but most likely he'll end his career in about 8-9 years with 2,700-2,800 hits. That's how I'd project him. You have to factor in his skills will start diminishing in about 4 years and he's going to continue being walked more and more.

If his skills are diminishing, why would pitchers walk him more? You are a flat-out fucking retard.

[TheJON]

Take Albert Pujols for example. I suppose he has an outside shot at 3,000 but most likely he'll end his career in about 8-9 years with 2,700-2,800 hits. That's how I'd project him. You have to factor in his skills will start diminishing in about 4 years and he's going to continue being walked more and more.

If his skills are diminishing, why would pitchers walk him more? You are a flat-out fucking retard.

He has just short of 1,500 hits right now. THE NEXT FEW YEARS he will continue to be walked 100+ times a year. Then after that you have to figure in his skills will start to diminish like they do everyone at that age. So factor in being walked a lot through the rest of his prime years and potential injuries and diminishing skills the rest of his career. So I'd project around 2,700-2,800 hits for him, though like I said, 3,000 isn't out of the realm of possibility.


Like I said, I wasn't certain on Winfield. I just copied and pasted that list, R-Jack, so it's not like I studied the fucking thing. I was wrong, heaven forbid I made an error. Gee, glad you've never been wrong before! But that still doesn't change my argument about Winfield and that he wasn't a GREAT player. He never was. He was a pretty darn good ballplayer, but he never did anything amazing other than stick around long enough to get to 3,000. Like I said, his skills were comparable to that of a Derrek Lee type. If that's first ballot HOF to you than so be it. Not to me.

[Dinsdale]

So what if the guys never even been one of the Top 20 players over a 3-4 year span?

Uhm... Jeter went on a span of about 6-7 years where he didn't finish outside of the top 10 in MVP voting.

Wasn't it YOU that leant so much credence to MVP Awards (while completely discounting Jeet's WS MVP hardware)?



I suppose it's a lot easier to create an argument like this WHEN YOU MAKE UP LIES TO SUPPORT YOUR "argument."... sup Dave Winfield.



This is priuceless Board Bitch shit here...


Regular season MVPs mean EVERYTHING... postseason MVPs mean nothing...

HRs and RBIs mean everything... Hits and getting on base mean NOTHING.

Hitting in a lineup of crappy hitters means EVERYTHING... LEADING a great team to WS victories means nothing.


Getting walked means EVERYTHING... getting 3000+ fucking hits means you got "lucky."



This is possibly the worst cherry-picked "argument" I've ever heard.


And the very idea that Yankeefans... yup, Yankeefans worship the guy because ESPN told them to, rather than because of his on-field performance is...


well, it's just so Jon-like.


Jon is, however, provodong excellent protection in the lineup for M2 and FFRPaul -- it's getting hard to smack around those guys to get to Jon.

[M Club]

ol' jon, you need to learn a few rules about argument. just because you brought a straw man into the discussion does it mean you've made a reasonable point. uh, yeah, most of us would pitch to jeter if a-rod or pujols is on deck. what's your point? the only people you bring up in order to compare jeter with unfavorably will be hall-of-famers themselves.

not too many people "stick around" long enough to get 3000 hits. you don't just get to play the 18 or so seasons it generally takes to reach that milestone [unless you're craig biggio]. lots of players come along and have better seasons than jeter, perhaps even five-year periods that dwarf his numbers, but the hall doesn't honor people for a three- or four-year stretch of play or the random mvp. roger maris?

again, your mvp argument is retarded. there's a lot of circumstance that goes into actually winning one, one of which is, yes, a-rod is a better player than jeter, and he's always going to have more of a claim to it than jeter. it's also fairly retarded because, as i've mentioned before, the same people who vote for your precious mvp are the same ones who are going to vote for jeter on the first ballot, provided he finishes out his career as expected.

[TheJON]

ol' jon, you need to learn a few rules about argument. just because you brought a straw man into the discussion does it mean you've made a reasonable point. uh, yeah, most of us would pitch to jeter if a-rod or pujols is on deck. what's your point? the only people you bring up in order to compare jeter with unfavorably will be hall-of-famers themselves.

not too many people "stick around" long enough to get 3000 hits. you don't just get to play the 18 or so seasons it generally takes to reach that milestone [unless you're craig biggio]. lots of players come along and have better seasons than jeter, perhaps even five-year periods that dwarf his numbers, but the hall doesn't honor people for a three- or four-year stretch of play or the random mvp. roger maris?

again, your mvp argument is retarded. there's a lot of circumstance that goes into actually winning one, one of which is, yes, a-rod is a better player than jeter, and he's always going to have more of a claim to it than jeter. it's also fairly retarded because, as i've mentioned before, the same people who vote for your precious mvp are the same ones who are going to vote for jeter on the first ballot, provided he finishes out his career as expected.

Valid points, I see what you're saying. My point is simply that, and I think you'll agree, 3,000 is a longevity number. That doesn't mean you can just suck balls and play forever and get to 3,000 because you can't. But to me, guys with 3,000 hits (most of them being singles) just isn't going to get me to tell my grandkids someday about how awesome it was back in the day to watch those guys play.

Guys I'm going to tell my kids and my grandkids about are guys like A-Rod, Griffey, Maddux, Brett, and of course my favorite Royals. I'll say things to them like "Griffey was just amazing, he could do everything. Hit for power, field like a mother, his skills were unmatched." What do I tell my grandkids about Jeter? "Yeah, I remember him, he got to 3,000 hits. He was a long-time Yankee so he was over-hyped. He was pretty darn good but really nothing he did stands out to me since his talent level wasn't anything spectacular. He was always on ESPN since he was on the Yankees, but I just don't recall a lot of games where he impressed me all that much. The only thing I really remember about the guy was he was one of those consistently pretty good players. He'd never amaze you with his talent, but he was always a steady performer." Which my grandson could respond by asking "But I see he was a first ballot hall of famer. From what you've said, it seems like he's more suited for the 2nd or 3rd ballot. How did he get inducted the first time?" To which I'll respond with "I dunno, why don't we log onto theoneboard.com and ask M Club what he thinks?" Then I'll come onto this board and start a thread called "How overrated was Jeter?" and 99% of the responses will be "Who the fuck is Derek Jeter?" The other 1% will be M Club begging me to give up my fucking argument by saying "it's been 40 years, let it go. Shouldn't you be out celebrating Iowa's 20th straight national title anyways??"

[M Club]

ah, that's right. i remember seeing that on the list of criteria for the hof: who are you going to tell your grandkids about? personally, i'm going to tell mine about cecil fielder, because he hit 51 home runs, and when has jeter ever come close to that? and yes, i agree with you that 3000 hits bespeaks longevity. that's pretty self-evident, but thanks for that incisive observation. before you pointed that out i was under the impression most players reached that milestone before their physical peak and that what separates hof'ers from the merely good wasn't how well they played after turning 32ish.

again, keep making your point by comparing him to other hof'ers as well as referencing power numbers to spite the value of base hits, all the while claiming it's the rest of us who are too brainwashed to see what's so painfully obvious.

[huh?]

JON, I'll give you props for throwing some raw meat out there to get the MLB forum some traffic. Aside from that, it does seem there are a lot of holes in your arguement. Is Jeter as good as the modern day media says he is...probably not. Is he a first ballot hall of famer? We'll see (I'd say yes).

Seriously, the fact that he didn't win a certain award is ridiculous ( See Rafeal Palmero circa 1999 and Mark McGuire's gold glove awards for further clarification). Baseball is, has always been, and will always be about certain numbers, 3000 is one of those numbers. World Series Championships is one of those numbers.

Baseball as much as any sport is a team sport...that's a given. Nobody here would argue that. Was he on some very good teams, yup. Did he contribute to those teams AS MUCH AS any other player on those teams, absolutely. He's as close to a first ballot hall of famer as anyone I can think of over the last 10 - 15 years.

Good luck with this. Wishing you the best!
huh?

[Terry in Crapchester]

At the risk of continuing the pile-on of NOJ, here's the complete list of first-ballot HOFers:

Bob Feller 1962
Jackie Robinson 1962
Ted Williams 1966
Stan Musial 1969
Sandy Koufax 1972
Warren Spahn 1973
Mickey Mantle 1974
Ernie Banks 1977
Willie Mays 1979
Al Kaline 1980
Bob Gibson 1981
Hank Aaron 1982
Frank Robinson 1982
Brooks Robinson 1983
Lou Brock 1985
Willie McCovey 1986
Willie Stargell 1988
Johnny Bench 1989
Carl Yastrzemski 1989
Joe Morgan 1990
Jim Palmer 1990
Rod Carew 1991
Tom Seaver 1992
Reggie Jackson 1993
Steve Carlton 1994
Mike Schmidt 1995
George Brett 1999
Nolan Ryan 1999
Robin Yount 1999
Kirby Puckett 2001
Dave Winfield 2001
Ozzie Smith 2002
Eddie Murray 2003
Dennis Eckersley 2004
Wade Boggs 2005
Tony Gwynn 2007
Cal Ripken, Jr. 2007

Seems that NOJ was right about Winfield before he decided to backpedal.

Btw, source for this list is http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofstat.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I'd say that's prolly a pretty reliable source.

[TheJON]

JON, I'll give you props for throwing some raw meat out there to get the MLB forum some traffic.

Somebody had to do it. It's the middle of pennant races and no one posts on here. I knew once I posted this thread it would light up like a christmas tree! Jeter's the golden boy. It's a sensitive subject. No one messes with Jete's, and I mean no one. First post I made in this thread I just knew this was destined for 3-4 pages. I might even keep it going. Get it to 6-7 pages. Rack me for getting people to talk baseball!!!

[WolverineSteve]

First ballot isn't what it once was. Most recent guys are either first ballot or old timers getting in via the veterans commitee.

Jon,
Jeter will get in. The writers and members vote, not Chris Berman and Stu Scott. I have gone on record with my disdain for ESPN on these boards, I hate what they've become. ESPN has over hyped many players and coaches around the sports world. Jeter isn't one of them.

3,000 hits is like 300 wins....a golden ticket. No need to argue. Obviously health and longevity contribute to getting 3000 hits. If 200 hits are an exceptional season than the equivelant of 15 of them ought to get you a ride to Cooperstown.

I would think you would argue for Jeter's inclusion to the hall, that way Brett being in would make a bit more sense. Old Pine tar boy was after all a part of the 'roids era....oh wait....nevermind .

[TheJON]

Points well taken R-Jack. Because I was wrong about Winfield being a 1st ballot HOFer, Jeter deserves to get in. Epic take......really, it was. Seriously, I only kinda read your garbage post but basically what I got out of it was you were trying to tell me what a dirty cunt you are?? Maybe my reading comprehension skills have diminished, but I could swear that's what your rant was about.

I do have one question though.....

It doesn't matter if he is to you, since it is proven you couldn't figure out which direction an elevator is going if I gave you three fucking tries.

^ = down, right? Shit confuses me all the time. They should have college courses on entering and exiting an elevator. By the way, how does my inability to understand the up and down arrows prove Jeter's first ballot HOF worthy?????

Old Pine tar boy was after all a part of the 'roids era....oh wait....nevermind

Okay, now THAT is funny!! Rack!

[Terry in Crapchester]

One further point, NOJ, . . .

You're really showing colossal ignorance by lumping all Yankee fans in with the incessant ESPN hype machine. While I certainly can't speak for all Yankee fans, you, as someone who's frequently at the CFB forum, should be well aware that I've documented my opinions about the WWL over there.

And besides, one advantage of not being stuck in Iowa is that I don't have to rely on the WWL for Yankee games. I get to watch God's favorite team as he intended, on the YES network. It's part of my basic cable package.

[TheJON]

One further point, NOJ, . . .

You're really showing colossal ignorance by lumping all Yankee fans in with the incessant ESPN hype machine. While I certainly can't speak for all Yankee fans, you, as someone who's frequently at the CFB forum, should be well aware that I've documented my opinions about the WWL over there.

And besides, one advantage of not being stuck in Iowa is that I don't have to rely on the WWL for Yankee games. I get to watch God's favorite team as he intended, on the YES network. It's part of my basic cable package.

How have I lumped Yankee fans into any category?? I was talking about baseball fans in general buying into anything YES2 feeds them. And I don't have to watch Yankee games on YES2 either, I can watch them on the real YES network just like you- on satellite.

[M Club]

First ballot isn't what it once was. Most recent guys are either first ballot or old timers getting in via the veterans commitee.

add to that who else is projected to get inducted in a certain year. if no one else is getting in that year then someone might get a ride.

'roids.

another hole in jon's logic.

[Terry in Crapchester]

One further point, NOJ, . . .

You're really showing colossal ignorance by lumping all Yankee fans in with the incessant ESPN hype machine. While I certainly can't speak for all Yankee fans, you, as someone who's frequently at the CFB forum, should be well aware that I've documented my opinions about the WWL over there.

And besides, one advantage of not being stuck in Iowa is that I don't have to rely on the WWL for Yankee games. I get to watch God's favorite team as he intended, on the YES network. It's part of my basic cable package.

How have I lumped Yankee fans into any category??

Uhm, hello? Bueller? Anyone? Earlier you said the only way a baseball fan could appreciate Jeter (and Yankee fans appreciate him more than any other group) would be if they bought into the ESPiN hype. Funny, but before you started this thread, I had no idea what ESPiN had to say about Jeter, nor did I particularly care. I go out of my way to avoid that sort of crap.

That having been said, I'll take your pronouncements about ESPiN with a grain of salt based on your history. Weren't you the one who said that ESPN recruits for Weis? The same ESPN that ranked Weis' last recruiting class 9th overall, whereas Rivals and Scout both had it ranked 2nd? Methinks that ESPN probably would be a little less critical of its own handiwork, if that's what it was in the first place.