Right Play?

[buckeye_in_sc]

Interested to hear your thoughts:

was up at Seneca Allegheny this past Sunday. Played in a $60 Tourney busted out about 1/2 way through...saw no cards only 3 playable hands were pocket 4's (raise and call ahead of me and had to dump it) would have flopped a set and taken out 2 people...A8 and KJ that was it...so I go and sit down at a cash table

1/2 no limit...buy in for 100...min was 40, max 100 smaller buy in table. I sit down in the UTG seat...first hand I look at POCKET FREAKING ACES...I limp...hoping someone behind me raises...gets around to the button (everyone limps)...button raises to $10...I re-pop to $50...he calls...flop comes 369 with 2 diamonds...I had Ace of diamonds...my only move - SHOVE...1/2 my stack was in the pot already...so there is about $120 in the pot so I shove...guy snap calls...before we can get the cards turned over dealer turns a J, then the river is a K...I am hoping for AK or QQ or AQ or something...nope POCKET KINGS the button has...then I find out he hit the case KING on the river because the small blind buried a king...

so at that point...9 people = 18 cards, 1 burn, 3 on the flop 22 cards, 1 burn, 1 turn = 24 cards...so now there are 28 cards left in the deck and 1 out of 28 help him...so he is sitting at about a 3% chance if my math is right (28/1)...sure as shit...hits it and SC is done...unreal...guy wouldn't look at me...can't really fault him I guess...but what other hand could he possibly put me on with a re-raise to $50 pre-flop...I guess had I raised to say $8 preflop I would have given him a thought that I had aces...

your thoughts...did I play it right?

[TheJON]

Short answer.....no. Don't get me wrong, you got unlucky......but...

You said it was your first hand, meaning you didn't know anything about the table. Why did you assume there would be a raiser behind you if you weren't sure of the table? I'm not a big fan of limping pre-flop with Aces unless you're at a very aggressive pre-flop table. That's the only time I think it can be effective. But being this was your first hand, it's not a good decision. You're just asking for trouble because we all know how difficult aces are to get away from on the flop if you don't hit your set and with you just limping you're asking for a 4-5 player flop in a low-limit game. And when 4-5 players are in, a decent percentage of the time your Aces are gonna get cracked.

On this particular hand, there's nothing you could have done. Had you raised, he would have popped you back and then you would have popped him back all-in anyways and he would have called. Neither of you were getting the other off of the hand. This hand was going to end up the same way no matter how you played it........with him having all of your chips. But I still don't like your play for the reasons above. In a nutshell.....don't try and get cute with Aces.

One other reason to not play Aces like that is because your opponents will catch on. If they caught you limp-raising with Aces, they won't give your pre-flop raises when you don't have Aces as much credit because they'll assume you would have just limped in with Aces or Kings. Winning a small pot is a heck of a lot better than losing a big one, as they always say!

[SunCoastSooner]

People are poker players not precogs. This guy hadn't seen you play a hand yet in his life. He had cowboys. If somebody came down at my table and raised my cowboys the first hand in their seat by 4 times my bet I'd call your ass too. Hell I might even move all in over the top or reraise back depending on chip stack.

[SunCoastSooner]

One other reason to not play Aces like that is because your opponents will catch on. If they caught you limp-raising with Aces, they won't give your pre-flop raises when you don't have Aces as much credit because they'll assume you would have just limped in with Aces or Kings. Winning a small pot is a heck of a lot better than losing a big one, as they always say!

I hear a lot of professionals that place in the smaller tournies or barely in the money at the larger ones say this shit but you don't hear people like Ivy or Negranue saying it. The object is to get you money in with the best hand. if you have A/A or K/K preflop you most likely have the best hand. I try to go to war as much as possible with such hands, especially preflop. I win more than I lose doing so as well.

[TheJON]

Negreanu and Ivey would never limp pre-flop with Aces or Kings at a table that was very passive though. And in this particular hand, Buckeye didn't know what style of play his table was because it was his first hand.

Yes, the object is to get your money in with the best hand. However, limping in for the price of the big blind is hardly "getting your money in with the best hand". The best players in the world have a bitch of a time getting away from Aces on the flop. When you limp in with them you're asking for more players than you want. Against 4-5 hands your Aces are only maybe 40% at best to win. I'll take my chances with 1-2 opponents. You'll win a bigger pot and lose a smaller one. With 4-5 players and a limped pre-flop pot, your chances of winning a big pot are small unless you hit a set, and your chances of LOSING a big pot are high.

[SunCoastSooner]

Negreanu and Ivey would never limp pre-flop with Aces or Kings at a table that was very passive though. And in this particular hand, Buckeye didn't know what style of play his table was because it was his first hand.

Yes, the object is to get your money in with the best hand. However, limping in for the price of the big blind is hardly "getting your money in with the best hand". The best players in the world have a bitch of a time getting away from Aces on the flop. When you limp in with them you're asking for more players than you want. Against 4-5 hands your Aces are only maybe 40% at best to win. I'll take my chances with 1-2 opponents. You'll win a bigger pot and lose a smaller one. With 4-5 players and a limped pre-flop pot, your chances of winning a big pot are small unless you hit a set, and your chances of LOSING a big pot are high.

Not disagreeing. I would have raised to begin with.

[buckeye_in_sc]

True...I should have opened raised to $10 or $12...who knows then maybe the guy puts me on something...but I was going down to the case King no matter what...

beautiful flop for AA v KK, QQ, JJ, 1010, AKs, AKo, or AQs, or AQo, which would be the range I would hope for on that flop...of course KK turned out to be the wrong hand...but hey...you learn I guess...

[Dinsdale]

Let's face it... you were losing all of your chips on that hand.


Fate/math screwed you, not your play.

While NOJ has a very valid point... I disagree. From any other seat, I probably would have raised... then again, I get way too cute with AA. But really, how often does a 9-seat 1/ table not see a raise preflop, especially with limpers?

I think SC did the right thing to get as many chips in the pot as possible, which he accomplished.

Dude was going to war with the cowboys. He hit his trips. You win some, you lose some... but getting your rockets crack heads-up is always a bitter pill to swallow.

It was a good play, due to position. You took the gamble on getting a raise, and you got it. That portion of the play actually went just the way you wanted it. The Card Gods just decided it wasn't your hand.

[TheJON]

While NOJ has a very valid point... I disagree. From any other seat, I probably would have raised... then again, I get way too cute with AA. But really, how often does a 9-seat 1/ table not see a raise preflop, especially with limpers?

The answer to that is more often than you might think. Have you ever gone to a Casino to play some cards during the day in the middle of a week? Who do you see at the table? A bunch of old farts. Old farts only raise with the nuts and they all like to limp. They're idiots. They don't know how to play. They don't understand the importance of isolating your hand or position. If they see a face card, they're in.....for the price of the BB.

One thing I always do is before I try to get "cute", I find out who I'm up against. The type of table your at is important and you just never know until you sit down for a while what types of players you're up against. Every table is different. I recommend getting a feel for your table before trying to make plays.

In this situation he was doomed regardless, but I still don't like the play.

[SunCoastSooner]

While NOJ has a very valid point... I disagree. From any other seat, I probably would have raised... then again, I get way too cute with AA. But really, how often does a 9-seat 1/ table not see a raise preflop, especially with limpers?

The answer to that is more often than you might think. Have you ever gone to a Casino to play some cards during the day in the middle of a week? Who do you see at the table? A bunch of old farts. Old farts only raise with the nuts and they all like to limp. They're idiots. They don't know how to play. They don't understand the importance of isolating your hand or position. If they see a face card, they're in.....for the price of the BB.

One thing I always do is before I try to get "cute", I find out who I'm up against. The type of table your at is important and you just never know until you sit down for a while what types of players you're up against. Every table is different. I recommend getting a feel for your table before trying to make plays.

In this situation he was doomed regardless, but I still don't like the play.

I don't know what casinos you're playing in but I can walk into the Beau on a Wednesday morning and there be more than old farts. The IOC is another matter... quit going to the coupon casinos and that will end that problem.

I get a little too cute with the rockets as well. It still pays off more often than it doesn't. You said what I was truing to say a lot better than I could have. I still would have made a raise the first time around but it wouldn't have been 6x to 8x the big blind; would have been a iminimal raise at about 2x to 3.5x the blind. But that is the cute in me... almost calling for a reraise at a large table.

Part of the reason I like playing live against people who play a lot of internet poker as well. You can really screw them up with all the betting patterns and structure they have become accustom to. Internet poker players at a cash table are like a gift from God... in a tournie not so much.

[buckeye_in_sc]

there is a lot of good discussion...

I stopped playing online finally...kept getting my money in with the best of it...flopping top set...getting it all in on the flop with someone chasing a gut shot and hitting on the river...that shit gets old after a while...so I just prefer to play live...

play in a 1/2 game a little more often now...broke about even, but had two hands that I was favored in but took horrible turn cards to lose two key pots...but overall I like my play...solid, tight, aggressive early...then gradually loosen up slightly to change gears...

[TheJON]

I don't know what casinos you're playing in but I can walk into the Beau on a Wednesday morning and there be more than old farts. The IOC is another matter... quit going to the coupon casinos and that will end that problem.

Umm....we only have 1 casino in town. It's actually a nice casino, good poker room. It's just that if you go during the daytime Monday-Thursday 80% of the players are old. Fortunately, I play M-F maybe once every 3 months so I don't have to worry about it. Old farts at the poker table annoy me. You wonder sometimes why they don't just go play blackjack. They're easy to beat, but not easy to win big pots off of since they just check-call all the time.