Well whaddya make of this.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Canada is a magical land, sprinkled with pixie dust, where all your dreams can come true.

[Felix]

So you propose stealing ?

not at all...mvs has convinced me that our national debt, corporate debt, mortgage debt, unfunded Medicare liability, Social Security liability, external debt, our high trade deficits, coupled with fighting wars on two fronts (at a cost of about a billion a week) are nothing to be concerned about, and the only way to rectify these situations are deeper tax cuts

we'll just let our children, their children and their childrens children and worry about it

McCain in 08-Borrowing our way to a better tomorrow

[Tom In VA]

Why not ? We're saddled with debt from previous generations and we turned out okay.

[Dinsdale]

There is nothing the least bit despicable or shameful about dead politicians. A large part of our current predicament is caused by the fact that they aren't killed more frequently. Dishonest political scumbags should fear for their lives not their careers when their mendacity is revealed.

RAAAAAACCCCCKKKKK!!!!!!!

[Goober McTuber]

Why not ? We're saddled with debt from previous generations and we turned out okay.

[Felix]

Why not ? We're saddled with debt from previous generations and we turned out okay.

absolutely right...that's why McCain is now my guy

as the presented graph shows, Reagan knew the only way to secure our future was to increase our national debt today

borrowing your way to prosperity is the American dream

[Cuda]

the zfacts graph is full of shit and so is the author, who is a self-admitted hard-lefty

Background and motivation From my undergraduate days at Berkeley, when I worked get Ron Dellums elected to the Berkeley City Council, I have been interested in social policy issues. Although I first studied physics, then math (at UC Berkeley) and then attended graduate school in Astronomy at UC Santa Cruz, my interest in social change led me into teaching (Jr. and Sr. high) and then into economics--how else to unite social policy and mathematics?

Development of zFacts.com Four years ago, I started zFacts.com in response to the idiocy of the Iraq war. My idea was to bring something like I.F. Stone's weekly to the web and make it a collective effort.... etc, etc,

fact is, under Carter, inflation & interest rates were both at 20% at various times and neither was very far from 20% at any time, economic growth was in the shitter, unemployment was in double digits, budget deficits were skyrocketing while revenues fell, and the stock market consistently "closed short of that magic 1000 mark"- yet this asshole tries to claim that government debt, as a percent of GDP declined.

[Felix]

the zfacts graph is full of shit and so is the author, who is a self-admitted hard-lefty

fact is, under Carter, inflation & interest rates were both at 20% at various times and neither was very far from 20% at any time, economic growth was in the shitter

try and follow along here hoss, we're not talking about inflation or interest rates, we're talking about the amount of our debt relative to our gross domestic product

[Cuda]

when the economy is in the toilet- like it was under Carter- GDP is right there along with the rest of the turds (20% interest rates, 20% inflation, double digit unemployment) And skyrocketing deficits & declining tax revenues make the national debt go UP, dumbfuck, not down.

zfacts.com and their data are as full of shit as PUSFAN's jockeys.

[Goober McTuber]

Feel free to post evidence to the contrary.

[Cuda]

i've done that, gobbles mc tubesteak. try to pay attention

[Goober McTuber]

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

...gobbles mc tubesteak...

O

M

F

G

[Cuda]

gobbles, can't you find some non-crackpot sources?

[Goober McTuber]

...gobbles mc tubesteak...

O

M

F

G

You've never seen that one, Perk? Pretty sad when you have to borrow your smack from Derron. Of course, it is Cooter we're talking about.

[Goober McTuber]

gobbles, can't you find some non-crackpot sources?

Feel free to post evidence to the contrary.

[Cuda]

feel free to stop swilling the Obama sperm & sober up, gobbles

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

You've never seen that one, Perk?

Honestly, no.

[Goober McTuber]

[Tom In VA]

I don't suppose Congress has anything to do with any of that.

Yeah, Democrats NEVER, approved budgets for Defense based on conditions or anything.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Socialism is coming, fuck-o's. Don't fight it, embrace it.

[Felix]

I don't suppose Congress has anything to do with any of that.

Yeah, Democrats NEVER, approved budgets for Defense based on conditions or anything.

oh come off it....Bush had control of the House for 6 years and the Senate for 4 years ...interesting that those years showed some of the most dramatic increases in our national debt

you know that borrowing our way to prosperity has always been a cornerstone of the Republican fiscal policy

that's why I'm voting for John McCain in 08

[Felix]

Well, except for this year.

you're right, it's surely the Dems fault....

I'm almost positive those increases in military spending in order to wage two simultaneous wars had absolutely nothing to do with it

[Felix]

Just another Clinton era chicken coming home to roost.

uh, no...you can't blame the housing crisis on Clinton no matter how hard you spin it...they were warned about this shit back in 2004 and did nothing to stop what anybody with a third grade education could see coming

this shit is all on Bush and the predominately republican controlled congress

[Cuda]

Socialism is coming, fuck-o's. Don't fight it, embrace it.

that's why i'm jumping on the bandwagon early!

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Socialism is coming, fuck-o's. Don't fight it, embrace it.

that's why i'm jumping on the bandwagon early!

That's cool, but you're already a charter member.

Don't forget to use your "points card" at the Red Barricade Food Court.
September is Double Bonus Points Marxist Madness Month at Potemkin Burger.

[Cuda]

Rack! you, comrade!

[Tom In VA]

Just another Clinton era chicken coming home to roost.

uh, no...you can't blame the housing crisis on Clinton no matter how hard you spin it...they were warned about this shit back in 2004 and did nothing to stop what anybody with a third grade education could see coming

this shit is all on Bush and the predominately republican controlled congress

Christ dude, do you need a fucking tissue or something ?

The housing bubble burst because PEOPLE MADE BAD DECISIONS banks and "investors", like those "Flip this House" and "Carlton Sheets" bullshit. Other people getting caught up in it, like myself, MADE BAD DECISIONS and had issues with their credit such that only an ARM could get them in their home.

Clinton was President and Bi-Partisan actions relaxed the lending regs. Bottom line. You can't fucking spin that.

We enjoyed the "high times" and now it's time to pay the piper one way or another.

Now since you're so fucking brilliant, what the fuck was Bush and the Republican congress supposed to do about it in 2004 ? Sieze Fannie and Freddie ? Send ATF squads to banks to burn them if they didn't work with people in foreclosure ? Send FBI snipers to take out the wives and children of key money market execs ?

Tell me, Mr. "Wah Wah Cry Cry, Bush Violated the Constitution". How in the fuck was he supposed to justify "violating the constitution" in order to "fix" this problem ?

I'd really like to know, Mr. Answer Man.

[Ang]

I don't think it was just the ARM. The home mortgage industry made a huge change in the mid to late 90's, which is catching up with us on every economic downturn. It was to open the housing market to folks who didn't have a down payment. You have an income but no cash? No problem! Let us give you that 80% loan and the 20% loan for the down payment you don't have! All is wonderful!

That let a lot of people into the housing market who previously could not get in because of lack of cash, and it also gave a whole shitload of people the ownership of homes with no BUFFER of regular fluctuation in prices of housing, and if anything at all goes wrong...they are totally screwed.

The purpose of it all as I remember, was to get more people into their own homes, a good humanitarian purpose on the top page of thinking. It made a lot of people feel good, boosted the statistics on home ownership, and helped the real estate values in a lot of places. Helped a lot of speculators and home builders as well.

But home ownership is just that...ownership. If the value goes down, you still own it even if it's not worth the money you still owe on it. Cause in that instance, you really didn't pay anything for it.

I spent a short time in real estate in that time while doing other things, and the terms for people buying homes just scared the hell out of me. This was all very risky, and people were doing it all over the country on a day to day basis just to support the housing industry and the real estate industry. People who had absolutely no business owning a home were signing up for 100% or even 120% loans with no cash down. What happens when they lose a job, have to support family members, or just don't feel like their job at Starbucks is supporting their personal potential? They have nothing in it...can walk away. They lose their home, but they don't lose financially...and that makes a huge difference, because everyone else is left holding their bag.

I know there is a crisis here, but it is an invented crisis. Our financial institutions have invited and encouraged people to borrow and not invest or take a stake so that they as institutions can make money, so why are we so surprised when people walk away from debt if someone else will clean up the mess?

It's Federally Insured! That means that all of us who actually saved money to put down for a home and have equity, invest and pay capital gains, and have built our own buffer against the regular and even unusual fluctuations in the economy...get to pay for it.

[Mr. Schwump]

The wise woman from the Moat is spot on. Remember when a home loan was available for about 2.5 times the yearly income of the main breadwinner, not including any spousal income ? And that loan could be had with at least the 20% down. Remember those days, when people bought homes they could afford AND paid for them ?
Who changed the rules ?

[Felix]

Christ dude, do you need a fucking tissue or something ?

not at all bud, all I need is a Maverick that's willing to borrow us to a better tomorrow...oh and I need my stocks to rebound

that and some tasty bud and some cool waves

Clinton was President and Bi-Partisan actions relaxed the lending regs. Bottom line. You can't fucking spin that.

actually legislation in 1977 relaxed lending practices, but yeah, you're right Clinton was to blame for everything

We enjoyed the "high times" and now it's time to pay the piper one way or another.

I'm assuming that "we" was purely rhetorical

Now since you're so fucking brilliant, what the fuck was Bush and the Republican congress supposed to do about it in 2004 ?[\quote]

nothing, mvs pointed out that apparently Bush saw this coming but he wasn't obligated to do anything to try and avert it...remember, this is all Clinton's fault

Tell me, Mr. "Wah Wah Cry Cry, Bush Violated the Constitution". How in the fuck was he supposed to justify "violating the constitution" in order to "fix" this problem ?

I'd really like to know, Mr. Answer Man.

obviously there was nothing to do-perish the thought that those that govern could be PROACTIVE instead of REACTIVE

that's why I'm voting vvvvvvv

[Dinsdale]

Which part of the Constitution says the Fed is to set terms and conditions for how a private business transaction between a citizen and a financial institution are executed?


I'll hold my breath waiting.

[Tom In VA]

Don't do that Dins, you'll pass out and hit your head.



Felix,

Although I fail many times - I do make an effort to be "intellectually honest" - that's all I'm asking. It's like here at work. Something goes wrong, as things do, and people waste fucking time trying to find out who is to blame as opposed to simply determining the problem and arriving at a solution based on technical facts. If we need to find "blame", do it afterwards. The fact is, there are some things, that can't be controlled. Shit happens. The "shit" that is happening now is a product of years and years of speculation. That being said, I can understand your point in this manner, it happened under Bush's watch - so there is some accountability there.

[Felix]

If we need to find "blame", do it afterwards. The fact is, there are some things, that can't be controlled. Shit happens. The "shit" that is happening now is a product of years and years of speculation. That being said, I can understand your point in this manner, it happened under Bush's watch - so there is some accountability there.

there's plenty of blame to go around and I'm certainly not saying the do nothing obstructionist Demotards that control Congress are free from culbability in this whole fucking mess...by and large they're responsible for blocking the efforts to try and quell the fucking nightmare that is the home mortgage crisis in the name of getting control of the Presidency and Congress

I hate simply despise politicians that are more interested in getting elected than they are for trying to right the ship (in other words, I hate virtually every politician)

the thing I find most disturbing is that the people in charge didn't appear to learn anything from the savings and loan fiasco...both parties are to blame-my only hope is that somebody, anybody will put themselves above getting elected and consider the welfare of the American people first....yeah I know, I'm living in a fucking pipe dream

I'm starting to think your ruck-sak plan maybe my best alternative

[BSmack]

Which part of the Constitution says the Fed is to set terms and conditions for how a private business transaction between a citizen and a financial institution are executed?

I'll hold my breath waiting.

When said transaction involves currency passed across state lines. Which all mortgages do.

Do I hear the Commerce Clause knocking?

[Cuda]

Do I hear the Commerce Clause knocking?

that's just a couple turds rattling around inside your dome

[Felix]

On...igger's Oshineboy

so in other words, you're on board the McCain express with me

solid

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Remember those days...

No, tell us all about them, you fossilized piece of shit.