World Series- Call it!

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jiminphilly
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World Series- Call it!

Post by jiminphilly »

Pretty good breakdown of the strenghts and weaknesses. I disagree with a few of his assesments but I appreciate this level of analysis over the powder-puff BS you find elsewhere.
World Series preview Story Highlights
Breaking down the AL champion Rays and the NL champion Phillies
Both teams can hit for power and both are adept at stealing bases


Lineups
Phillies AVG/OBP/SLG EqA VORP
SS-S Rollins .277/.349/.437 .282 43.4
RF-R Werth .273/.363/.498 .295 30.4
2B-L Utley .292/.380/.535 .309 62.3
1B-L Howard .251/.339/.543 .290 35.2
LF-R Burrell .250/.367/.507 .294 33.4
CF-S Victorino .293/.352/.447 .275 33.4
DH-L Stairs .252/.341/.409 .264 7.4
3B-R Feliz .249/.302/.402 .240 0.1
C-R Ruiz .219/.320/.300 .223 -7.0

Rays AVG/OBP/SLG EqA VORP
2B-L Iwamura .274/.349/.380 .264 16.0
CF-R Upton .273/.383/.401 .291 32.1
1B-L Pena .247/.377/.494 .306 32.0
3B-R Longoria .272/.343/.531 .302 34.8
LF-L Crawford .273/.319/.400 .262 7.1
INF-S Aybar .253/.327/.410 .262 5.2 @ 3B
C-S Navarro .295/.349/.407 .268 17.8
OF-R Baldelli .263/.344/.475 .286 4.0 @ DH
SS-R Bartlett .286/.329/.361 .255 12.9





By Joe Sheehan, Baseball Prospectus

The Rays were the better team playing in the toughest division of the better league. They went through two division winners, including the best or second-best team in baseball, in the playoffs to get here. They have more talent, 1 through 25, than the Phillies do.

The Phillies played very well in the NL postseason, but there's no way to avoid the fact that had you seeded the playoff teams 1-8, the Brewers and Dodgers would have been 7 and 8 in some order. That's how you can go 7-2 with Ryan Howard slugging .323, among other so-so performances. The Phillies shut down their opponents to get here, allowing a little more than three runs per game. That's not likely to continue.

One entertaining aspect of this matchup is that we have two teams that steal bases very well, but that get their offense from power rather than speed. The Rays have gone 17-for-19 on the bases after leading the AL in steals, but their offensive strengths are walks and, with 22 bombs in October, home-run power. The Phillies have famously been the best basestealing team in history, successful on 86 percent of their attempts over the last two seasons. But they also led the NL in home runs and were second in slugging. You cannot put either of these teams in a box.

In terms of the lineups, Phillies manager Charlie Manuel will sometimes use Shane Victorino in the No. 2 spot of his lineup and Jayson Werth sixth. He will also sometimes split Chase Utley and Howard by using Werth between them. While he has eschewed doing so in the postseason, the tactic is almost mandatory in this series. The Rays, with the emergence of David Price, have three effective left-handed relievers. Utley slips against southpaws, while Howard collapses. Manuel has to make Rays manager Joe Maddon work harder by not batting them back-to-back. If he doesn't, the two will rarely see a righty in any leveraged situation. This is a key element in this series.

One key difference between the two teams is how much the Phillies' lineup falls off at the end. The Pedro Feliz/Carlos Ruiz duo provides an escape hatch for most pitchers, with Feliz being a hacker who occasionally runs into a fastball, and Ruiz a singles hitter with minimal power. Both are significant double-play threats, so look for Victorino to run if he gets on in front of the bottom of the lineup. Greg Dobbs occasionally plays third base against right-handers, but not all right-handers; Manuel seems to prefer using him when his own starter is right-handed as well. The Phillies need his bat in the lineup.

Now, unlike a number of recent NL entrants, the Phillies actually have a pretty good DH option. It should be Matt Stairs, although it might be Dobbs against right-handers. Against Rays lefty, and Game 1 starter, Scott Kazmir, Philly can DH Pat Burrell and use Eric Bruntlett or So Taguchi in left field. That's a much weaker choice than Stairs or Dobbs. The Phillies, as a team, were stronger against lefties than righties this season, but with Utley and Howard's splits, and the gap at DH, Kazmir and the southpaw relievers seem like a good matchup.

The Rays will platoon Gabe Gross and Rocco Baldelli in right field, and Cliff Floyd and Willy Aybar at DH. Other than that, it has been a set lineup since Carl Crawford returned and dropped into the No. 5 slot. The Rays' speed in front of the bottom of the lineup is a nice touch. They do steal bases well -- an AL-leading 142 at a 74 percent clip -- and have the ability to use their speed to stay out of double-play situations in the bottom of the lineup, which features slow groundball hitters. This keeps the offense going.

The Rays beat the Red Sox in part because they went a bit nuts at the plate, hitting 16 homers and slugging .508. That's a bit outside their range, but the Phillies' starters do get the ball in the air and allow their share of home runs, while their relievers have had an odd year with respect to their HR/FB rates, which were very low. It would not be surprising, and in fact, it may be a key to the Series, if the Rays were to continue bashing their way through October.

Benches
Phillies AVG/OBP/SLG EqA VORP
C-R Chris Coste .263/.324/.423 .257 8.0
UT-R Eric Bruntlett .217/.297/.297 .215 -6.0
4C-L Greg Dobbs .301/.333/.491 .278 12.7
RF-L Geoff Jenkins .246/.301/.392 .240 -4.4
OF-R So Taguchi .220/.283/.297 .193 -4.1

Rays AVG/OBP/SLG EqA VORP
DH-L Cliff Floyd .268/.349/.455 .286 12.6
RF-L Gabe Gross .238/.336/.414 .271 3.9
UT-S Ben Zobrist .253/.339/.505 .294 14.7 @ SS
CF-S Fernando Perez* .249/.323/.351 .244 NA
C-R Michel Hernandez* .220/.267/.315 .198 NA
*: Translated minor league performance


The Phillies' bench is not a strength. They have virtually no speed or defense, and their backup catcher is about the third-best hitter there. Bruntlett emerged as the defensive replacement for Burrell, leaving Taguchi as a fifth outfielder with no discernable reason for his roster spot. He and Geoff Jenkins would have made a nice platoon a couple of years ago; now they hit for pitchers, and maybe for Ruiz, and even "hit" is inappropriate. Dobbs is an effective pinch-hitter, although he should be starting, and Stairs will be on the bench about half the time.

The Rays have a bit more flexibility. Floyd and Gross are the other halves of platoons, but Fernando Perez has emerged as a pinch-runner with significant tactical value, and he might be the best defensive right fielder on the team. Ben Zobrist won't play much, but as a switch-hitter with a little pop he gets called on occasionally to hit for Bartlett or Gross, and his ability to play the outfield has given Maddon some in-game options. Hernandez is trying to get a ring on the Chris Turner Plan.

Starting Rotations
Phillies IP ERA SNLVAR SNW%
LHP Cole Hamels 227.1 3.09 7.1 .621
RHP Brett Myers 190.0 4.55 3.5 .522
LHP Jamie Moyer 196.1 3.71 5.0 .556
RHP Joe Blanton 197.2 4.69 3.0 .495


Rays IP ERA SNLVAR SNW%
LHP Scott Kazmir 152.1 3.49 4.8 .600
RHP James Shields 215.0 3.56 5.4 .636
RHP Matt Garza 184.2 3.70 4.9 .550
RHP Andy Sonnanstine 193.1 4.38 3.0 .591


The decision to flip Kazmir and James Shields in the ALCS rotation costs the Rays now, as they can't go with Shields in Game 1 against Cole Hamels. They have yet to announce their rotation, but there's no reason for them not to just run Kazmir out there, followed by a rested Shields and Matt Garza. Kazmir has his command issues, but a power left-hander isn't a bad idea against the Phillies. The Rays have gotten very good starting pitching in this postseason, with Garza the breakout star off two excellent outings against the Red Sox. If there's a concern, it's that everyone but Garza can be beat with the longball. That Game 4 matchup of Andy Sonnanstine and Joe Blanton looms as a long night in Philadelphia.

For the Phillies, it's really all about Hamels. The lefty has three of the team's seven wins in October, and he hasn't been challenged in any of them. For the Phillies to win the World Series, they'll need to win both of his starts. In fact, were I in charge, I'd push Hamels to 1-4-7 and either drop Blanton from the rotation or use him in Game 5 and put Myers in the bullpen after his start. The gap between Hamels and every other Phillies' starter is large, and the gap between Hamels and Blanton, given the Rays' team platoon split, is massive. If the Rays beat Hamels even once, they should win the Series handily. This makes Game 1 even more significant than it already is.

Bullpens
Phillies IP ERA WXRL FRA
RHP Brad Lidge 69.1 1.95 7.59 2.32
RHP Ryan Madson 82.2 3.05 2.00 3.43
LHP J.C. Romero 59.0 2.75 2.23 3.02
RHP Chad Durbin 87.2 2.87 1.75 2.90
LHP Scott Eyre 25.1 4.21 1.06 3.39
LHP James Happ 31.2 3.69 -0.02 3.82
RHP Clay Condrey 69.0 3.26 0.26 3.75

Rays IP ERA WXRL FRA
RHP Dan Wheeler 66.1 3.12 2.09 2.94
LHP J.P. Howell 89.1 2.22 4.64 2.78
RHP Grant Balfour 58.1 1.54 3.43 0.96
LHP David Price 14.0 1.93 0.09 2.47
RHP Chad Bradford 59.1 2.12 1.52 2.65
LHP Trever Miller 43.1 4.15 1.67 3.32
RHP Edwin Jackson 183.1 4.42 4.2* 4.62
*SNLVAR


The Phillies' full set of lefty relievers could come in handy, as a redundancy in lefty specialists that was overkill in the NLDS and moderately helpful in the NLCS becomes a feature in the World Series. James Happ is more of a long reliever for low-leverage situations, but the ability to turn a lineup around if you fall behind 4-0 in the third has its benefits. Brad Lidge, of course, is the story here, perfect in save situations in 2008 on the strength of allowing just two homers all season long. If you're tired of that note, consider this one: Lidge walked 31 men unintentionally in 69 2/3 innings, a very high rate for a closer. There's no way around it; when he comes in, Phillies fans are going to be nervous, because his combination of free passes and fly balls is scary. All the Phillies relievers, save Ryan Madson and Scott Eyre, are prone to walking the park, and the Rays are as patient as they come.

We've seen the Rays' bullpen in action, and it's a very good one, with power arms missing bats, two effective tactical guys and now David Price. It's not clear how Maddon will use Price in the Series, although given the importance of his last two appearances, it seems fair to say that Maddon is comfortable with his rookie in high-leverage situations. If Price supplants Dan Wheeler as the closer, that's probably a good thing. Wheeler may move into Grant Balfour's spot, at least at the beginning of the Series; Balfour pointedly did not pitch in Sunday's Game 7, on the heels of a couple of rough outings. He's still the biggest strikeout threat in the pen, and would be an overpowering reliever against the bottom of the Phillies' lineup. The Rays' pen, on the whole, has a considerable advantage in this series, maybe their biggest one.

Defense
Let's not let a few high-profile mistakes drive the story; the Rays were one of the best defensive teams in baseball in 2008, and remain so right now. We saw some flaws close up over the last couple of weeks. Evan Longoria can get sloppy on his throws; B.J. Upton tends to drift, rather than run, back on fly balls; Gross isn't a fast man. Still, the Rays don't let you beat them on balls in play. Gross' metrics aren't bad, but Perez or Baldelli should be in right field late in games.

The Phillies were also strong defensively, sixth in the majors in Park-Adjusted Defensive Efficiency. Their highs are higher and their lows lower than the Rays'. Utley is a fantastic, if unheralded, second baseman; Victorino is excellent in center and while I'm no Pedro Feliz fan, he is a very good glove man at third. On the other hand, no Ray is as bad anywhere as Howard is at first base, and Burrell is below-average in left field. Neither team has an overall edge here, although if I had to pick, I'd probably take the Phillies' defense because of Utley's skill.

Managers
Maddon is entertaining, and I think the one thing you can say for him is that he's not going to get tied down to roles. That was Mike Scioscia's defining trait at the start of his career as well. Maddon used Balfour and J.P. Howell in the fifth inning of Game 2 of the ALCS. Price went from an extra guy in the bullpen to the man he chose to save his season in Game 7. Wheeler was asked to get 10 outs in Game 2. That kind of flexibility is admirable. However, Maddon has occasionally sat on his hands in the wrong spots, passing up a chance to gain an edge. I suspect we're seeing a learning curve here, and a very steep one, so there's always the chance that Maddon will make a mistake along the way with the 'pen. Otherwise he's a very good manager, not overly enamored of smallball, and by all accounts, he's good at the off-field stuff.

I mentioned earlier in the postseason Manuel was growing on me. The refusal to separate Utley and Howard in the lineup is grating, as is the refusal to play Dobbs more often. Outside of that, though, he runs his pitching staff well, even using Lidge for four outs for the first time all year because the situation warranted it. There was one massive gaffe in the NLCS, asking Victorino to bunt in a clear swing situation. That seems to reflect less an affinity for one-run strategies as an inflated opinion of the bottom of his lineup. That's not fatal.

Both of these guys are assets, and the only thing I'd note is that Maddon might be more likely to make a costly mistake. He is the man who issued a bases-loaded intentional walk during the season and let David Ortiz face a right-hander in a few critical situations last week.

Prediction
For all of the detail above, I keep coming back to one point: The Rays are a much better baseball team than the Phillies are. The gap between the leagues is real, and when you adjust for it and other factors -- as third-order wins do -- you find that the Rays were actually 10 games better than the Phillies this season. They've also beaten better teams to get to the Series. Compare the rosters, and while the Phillies have their share of frontline talent, perhaps even more than the Rays have, the Rays have almost no dead spots on the roster, and are much stronger toward the bottom of the lineup, the back of the rotation, the bullpen and the bench.

Three of the last four World Series have been AL sweeps. The presence of Hamels makes that result unlikely, but even he won't be enough to save the Phillies. Rays in six.

For more cutting-edge player and statistical analysis, visit baseballprospectus.com.
Offense- Rays
Pitching- slight edge to Phillies
Defense- significant edge to Phillies

Bullpen- slight edge to phillies
bench- slight edge to rays

manager- push

Phillies in 6
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Re: World Series- Call it!

Post by Goober McTuber »

I’m not reading all of that. Devil Rays in 7.
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Re: World Series- Call it!

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Something tells me that just like the Royals in 1980 shot their wad finally beating the Yankees, the Rays have also spent themselves getting over the Sox.

Phillies in 6, just like 1980.
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Re: World Series- Call it!

Post by Shoalzie »

I really don't expect the wild swings in momentum in this series that we saw in the ALCS. I think we'll see the old cliche 'momentum is the next game's starting pitcher'. I love the Game 1 matchup in favor of Phillies with Hamels against Kazmir. Hamels should get two wins in that matchup. Shields against Myers is a slight edge but I think they split those games. Garza against Moyer...you have to give the edge to the young gun who had a great series against the Red Sox. Garza should win Game 3 and if it did go to Game 7, I'd take him in that scenario. The swing game of the series will be Game 4 with Blanton against Sonnanstine, which in my view is the most even of the four pitching matchups. With the way I have the series shaking out, Blanton would have to win Game 4 for them to win in 6 games...since I've got the Phillies up 3-2 in the other three pitching matchups.

Offensively, I think both can explosive and we didn't really see the best of the Phillies in the Dodgers series. Rollins, Howard and Utley were fairly quiet while you saw the Rays big bats...Upton, Longoria, Pena...help carry them over the Red Sox. I really don't see Upton or Longoria going off like they did against the Sox...both will have good series but not monumental. I do see Upton passing Bonds and Beltran by getting his 9th homer in this series to post a new record. I think the X-factor in the series will be Victorino. I also think Rollins needs to have a strong series from the standpoint of getting on base in front their big boppers to give them RBI opportunities. With how potent both teams are in the middle of the order...the table-setters are a big key.

In the other key areas...I don't think the Rays are as bad defensively as what we saw at the tail end of the ALCS. I'll chalk that up to nerves. Longoria and Bartlett are both very sure handed players and they'll shake out of their mini-funk and make the routine players and not give the Phillies gift base runners. I think the area where the Phillies have a good size edge is at the back of the bullpen. I don't buy Price (ban pun) as a closer just because of one outing. Maddon will probably shuffle his guys based on matchups and circumstances. Manuel has the steady and more established options with Madson to set up Lidge with a good lefty/righty combo of Romero and Durbin for the 6th and/or 7th inning.

The manager matchup is fairly even...Maddon has been this far before under Scioscia and Manuel has been in multiple postseasons with the Phillies and Indians. Maddon has the tendency to try to get too cute with his decisions and maybe one crazy idea might get him hurt. I'd be curious to see how he manages with the 3 games in Philadelphia and having to use his bench and what he decides to do with his open situation in the bullpen with no clear roles for any of his guys. He'll have Aybar as a pinch hitter rather than a DH and has some serviceable guys like Floyd, Gross or Baldelli (whomever isn't in right), and Zobrist with Perez being his chief option as the pinch runner. He's got decent hitting pitchers with Garza in Game 3 who was 2 for 5 this year and Sonnanstine in Game 4 is 4 for 10 in his career. Kazmir in Game 5 his the lightest hitter with only one hit in 8 career at bats.


Phillies in 6
MVP--Cole Hamels...he'll get 2 wins and have an ERA under 1.50
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Re: World Series- Call it!

Post by Yer a Fuckin Jerkoff »

I think this one goes the distance- seven games.

These two teams are very evenly matched and there's no way that it will be a dominate four game sweep by either team. if Boston or the Yankees (or maybe the Angels) had made it from the AL, then you might be looking at a sweep of 5 game win for the AL. Nevertheless, it's Tampa vs. Philadelphia. Tampa seems to live and die by the home run in these playoffs and that will hurt them at some point. Plus, those middle relievers have been shaky as balls.

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Re: World Series- Call it!

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Yer a Fuckin Jerkoff wrote:Tampa seems to live and die by the home run in these playoffs and that will hurt them at some point.

That's a fair statement...I went ahead and looked at the numbers to see how reliant they are on the long ball.

In the 11 postseason games they've played:

They've hit 22 home runs (2 per game)
They've scored 64 runs, 33 runs have come in on home runs (51.6% of their offensive output)
They've had 102 hits (21.6% of their hits have been home runs)
Their postseason batting average is .268 and if you subtract the home runs hit, their average would be .223.
Their record in games that they've hit a home run is 6-4.
Their record in games that they've hit more than one home run is 5-2...one of those losses was the big collapse in Game 5 when they had the 7-0 lead and seemed be on their way to a win.
The only game they didn't hit a home run was in Game 1 of the ALCS when they were shutout by Matsuzaka.

To put it into perspective with what they did in the regular season:

They hit 180 home runs in 162 games (1.1 per game vs. 2 per game in the postseason)
They had 1443 hits as a team (12.5% of their hits were home runs vs. 21.6% in the postseason)
Their team batting average was .260 vs. .268 in the postseason.
Their non-home run batting average was .236 vs. .223 in the postseason.

As for their runs per game...in the regular season, they averaged 4.8 runs per game and in the postseason, they've averaged 5.8 runs per game.


So in short, they have been more reliant on home runs in the postseason than they had in the regular season but their offensive output in the posteason is greater than what they did in the regular season. If the Phillies can keep them in the yard, we'll see if they can score runs by more conventional means. I certainly think guys like Utley and Howard can match Upton and Longoria when it comes to power.
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Re: World Series- Call it!

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Rays in 6
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Re: World Series- Call it!

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I am amazed at the lack of respect the Rays continue to get, not here specifically but from the talking heads we hear and read. I dont have the patience to break this game down as well as some of you have but I think we will see a very competitive series with no blowouts. I believe the Rays will benefit tremendously from the experience gained in the Boston series and carry it over here, I'll take the Rays in 6.

On a side note I'm curious if they are playing it up in Philly the fact that Tampa's other pro teams all went through Philly in route to their respective championships? It is getting some play on sports talk down this way. Good luck, Go Rays...
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Re: World Series- Call it!

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Bucmonkey wrote:I am amazed at the lack of respect the Rays continue to get, not here specifically but from the talking heads we hear and read. I dont have the patience to break this game down as well as some of you have but I think we will see a very competitive series with no blowouts. I believe the Rays will benefit tremendously from the experience gained in the Boston series and carry it over here, I'll take the Rays in 6.

On a side note I'm curious if they are playing it up in Philly the fact that Tampa's other pro teams all went through Philly in route to their respective championships? It is getting some play on sports talk down this way. Good luck, Go Rays...

Funny. Everything I've read, heard or seen on tv has favored the Rays (ESPN has been sucking major Ray cock for the past 48 hours). And technically the Phillies have to go through Tampa for their championship this time, fella.

If you're into numbers:

last time the Philles won the WS 1980. It's now 2008.
Tug McGraw's number was 45. Brad Lidge is 54.

In all honesty though; these are 2 evenly matched teams and it could come down to bullpen where the Phillies do have a slight advantage.
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Re: World Series- Call it!

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jiminphilly wrote:And technically the Phillies have to go through Tampa for their championship this time...
Not necessarily.

So I'm wondering, jim...

If it comes to Philly being able to clench the Series at home, will there be a need to have mounted police all up and down the foul lines, circa 1980?

In KC, we were like, you have got to be kidding me.
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Re: World Series- Call it!

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War Wagon wrote:
jiminphilly wrote:And technically the Phillies have to go through Tampa for their championship this time...
Not necessarily.

So I'm wondering, jim...

If it comes to Philly being able to clench the Series at home, will there be a need to have mounted police all up and down the foul lines, circa 1980?

In KC, we were like, you have got to be kidding me.
Last I checked the series opens in Tampa. The Philles MUST win at least 1 game there to win the WS so technically, yes.

As for the mounted police; not this year; not enough room. Running onto the field to celebrate a championship didn't orginate in Philly, Whitey and if you somehow thing that's a bad thing (running onto the field) then you don't know how to celebrate. It happens all the time in college and pro basketball games so what's the difference?
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Re: World Series- Call it!

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I didn't ask you about running onto the field, dolt.

I asked about the need for mounted police to prevent it.

I don't know how old you are. Did you see that shit?

Even though KC lost that series, at least we weren't Phillyfan.
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Re: World Series- Call it!

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Phils in 7
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Re: World Series- Call it!

Post by jiminphilly »

War Wagon wrote:I didn't ask you about running onto the field, dolt.

I asked about the need for mounted police to prevent it.

I don't know how old you are. Did you see that shit?

Even though KC lost that series, at least we weren't Phillyfan.

Maybe because the Philles org knew at the time that nothing short of a cop with a gun was going to stop the championship starved fans from running on the field. Count yourself lucky for not being a Philly fan. Not because of the behavior or bullshit like that but because it's been since '83 since this city and it's fans have had a team win a championship. Say what you will about the Philadelphia fans but they have always supported their teams through the good and bad years. Not sure that can be said about other cities.

And for the record I was 4 so I have very little memory of that time except I was probably dressed in Phillies gear all the time.
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Re: World Series- Call it!

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jiminphilly wrote: And for the record I was 4 so I have very little memory of that time except I was probably dressed in Phillies gear all the time.
Good enough for my record, jim.

Good luck to a true fan. I hope you enjoy it half as much as I did at the time.
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Re: World Series- Call it!

Post by jiminphilly »

Christ old mighty would someone please tell them it was not a BALK! What's funny is Buck wanted to call Pena safe at 2nd on the pickoff attempt before the ump even made the sign to call him out.
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Re: World Series- Call it!

Post by jiminphilly »

Rack Phillies pitching tonight. Offense came up very small though. Need a rebound against a RH starter tomorrow.
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Re: World Series- Call it!

Post by jiminphilly »

War Wagon wrote:
jiminphilly wrote: And for the record I was 4 so I have very little memory of that time except I was probably dressed in Phillies gear all the time.
Good enough for my record, jim.

Good luck to a true fan. I hope you enjoy it half as much as I did at the time.

Thanks Wags. Had my 2 kids (ages 3 and 5) watching it with me for a bit before they got tired to watch. No better feeling than watching a game with your kids.
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Re: World Series- Call it!

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jiminphilly wrote:Christ old mighty would someone please tell them it was not a BALK! What's funny is Buck wanted to call Pena safe at 2nd on the pickoff attempt before the ump even made the sign to call him out.
Definitely not a balk. My seats were right down the rightfield line and you could tell Hamels did not make an attempt toward moving to home plate. The problem was Pena left before Hamels got to the top of his leg kick. That was an easy pickoff move for a lefty.
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Re: World Series- Call it!

Post by Dinsdale »

MuchoBulls wrote: Definitely not a balk. My seats were right down the rightfield line and you could tell Hamels did not make an attempt toward moving to home plate. The problem was Pena left before Hamels got to the top of his leg kick. That was an easy pickoff move for a lefty.

I agree that it was a really easy pick... but he balked.

The leg went towards the bag (although the toe never went to the plate).

So... I say "balk"... you (and the ump)say "no balk."


Who's right?

The ump is the obvious answer. Funny how that works.

But technically, we're all right... since balks seem to be one of the least-defined, most subjective calls in sports.


Andy Pettitte agreed with the call-btw.
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Re: World Series- Call it!

Post by MuchoBulls »

I am not even rooting for Philly, but that was no balk. I used to pitch and am I am a lefthander. The basic rule of thumb on pickoffs, as I was coached, was that you took the front left edge of the pitching rubber and you had a 45 degree angle (90 degree angle being formed from 1st base to home plate) at which you could work with without being called for a balk. Pettitte use that perfectly and Hamels did last night as well.
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Re: World Series- Call it!

Post by Shoalzie »

MuchoBulls wrote:I am not even rooting for Philly, but that was no balk. I used to pitch and am I am a lefthander. The basic rule of thumb on pickoffs, as I was coached, was that you took the front left edge of the pitching rubber and you had a 45 degree angle (90 degree angle being formed from 1st base to home plate) at which you could work with without being called for a balk. Pettitte use that perfectly and Hamels did last night as well.

Exactly...that's the rule I remember from high school ball (a lefty as well). I was one that pitched quite often with runners on base...you can draw your own conclusions to why. :oops:

I can remember learning how to mix up my delivery with a man on first. I did sort of a modified slide step where I swung my right foot towards first base and stared at the runner before I decided to deliver to the plate. My foot took of a semi-circle path where I could either drop the foot down in front of me to throw over or continue on and deliver the pitch. It was fairly effective in freezing the runner and not allowing them to get a huge secondary lead. I didn't throw all the hard so I had to come up with a good move to the plate to deceive the runner and keep the double play in effect.

To the game itself...seeing Upton, Pena and Longoria held to a combined 0-for-12 with 5 K...the Rays will have a hard time winning against any pitcher, let alone Hamels and the way he's been throwing. Conversely, Utley has the big home run in the first inning to get him off to a good start in the series. Howard and Burrell were quiet but Werth, Victorino and Feliz chipped with two hits each.

I like the Rays to bounce back tonight with Myers going against them. He's not nearly as good on the road as he is at home and he's got a problem with giving up the gopher ball. I think the Rays' big 3 in the middle of the order will have a better night and get to Myers early and often and take some pressure off Shields. I was thinking this would be a 1-1 series going to Philly.
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Re: World Series- Call it!

Post by MuchoBulls »

I had a real good move to first and it was pretty easy to freeze runners with the slide step and a head fake.

The move the Rays pitcher used toward second base last night was closer to a balk than Hamels' was.
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Re: World Series- Call it!

Post by Shoalzie »

Tonight will be the only game the Rays win in Philadelphia. Garza has been on a nice run and I think he continues to pitch well in Game 3. Moyer does allow the occasional gopher ball and I think the Rays knock a couple out and win in somewhat comfortable fashion.
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Re: World Series- Call it!

Post by jiminphilly »

Nothing comfortable about the phillies win tonight. Crazy crazy crazy game.

Interesting story that broke after the game- Tim McGraw was on the field for some charity photo-op thing where he was on the mound. The story is he sprinkled some of Tug McGraw's ashes on the mound before the game.

I'm not the spirtual type these days but this story will get a lot of run. I hope it means we see a lot of Faith Hill as a result.
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Re: World Series- Call it!

Post by Shoalzie »

I'm kind of glad they had the rain delay last night so I could watch most of the game amidst all the hockey and college football games yesterday. I did stay up and watch the entire game and caught the wild ending. Although Moyer and Garza weren't the pitchers of record, it was a big win for the Phillies given the pitching matchup. Moyer threw well and got a lucky break with that near home run by Longoria fell short because of the wind.

It's been an unusual series by the different ways these two teams have scored their runs. All 4 Rays runs were scored with a single hit. The way Bruntlett ultimately scored the winning run was far from typical. I think Maddon did the right thing by walking the next two batters to load the bases and create a force play at the plate. Ruiz unintentionally put that soft ground ball in a perfect spot where Longoria had no chance of throwing out of Bruntlett at home.

With tonight, I consider it a push with the pitching matchup. With the way the series has gone, you definitely can't take allowing guys to get on base for granted considering the multitude of ways players have scored. All you need to look at is how Upton and Bruntlett scored runs last night for an example that. It's a bit much to call it a must win for the Rays but I don't think they want to face Hamels on Monday night with their season on the line.
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Re: World Series- Call it!

Post by Mikey »

Mikey wrote:Rays in 6
Can I change my call?
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Re: World Series- Call it!

Post by jiminphilly »

Mikey wrote:
Mikey wrote:Rays in 6
Can I change my call?
absolutely.


Already planning on being in the city tomorrow along with 1,000,000 of my newest friends.
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Re: World Series- Call it!

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jiminphilly wrote:Already planning on being in the city tomorrow along with 1,000,000 of my newest friends.

After Game 4, I don't know how the Rays come back now. Hamels is the wrong guy to run into when your team is in dire straights. You can tell when a team is living a charmed life when the pitcher goes yard. I'd be shocked if the Phillies not only finish it off on Monday night but wipe the floor with them like they did on Sunday.

In a way, this is shades of the Tigers in '06 when I see the Rays. They're puckering under pressure and getting unexpectedly dominated across the board. I looked at this year's World Series as being a fairly even matchup but I just stunned at how one-sided this has been.
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Re: World Series- Call it!

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jiminphilly wrote: Already planning on being in the city tomorrow along with 1,000,000 of my newest friends.
Break out the riot gear.
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Re: World Series- Call it!

Post by jiminphilly »

War Wagon wrote:
jiminphilly wrote: Already planning on being in the city tomorrow along with 1,000,000 of my newest friends.
Break out the riot gear.

yup.

:hfal: :hfal:
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Re: World Series- Call it!

Post by Bucmonkey »

Sad they have to play a championship game under these conditions. That is football weather, not baseball. Props to the Phillies nevertheless, be nice to extend this series out another game at least.
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Re: World Series- Call it!

Post by Screw_Michigan »

Isn't that Pena's first hit of the WS? See Maddon, have your hitters be patient instead of swinging at the first two pitches and good things can happen.

Great game to watch from your warm living room, for sure.
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Re: World Series- Call it!

Post by Mikey »

jiminphilly wrote:
Mikey wrote:
Mikey wrote:Rays in 6
Can I change my call?
absolutely.


Already planning on being in the city tomorrow along with 1,000,000 of my newest friends.

Phils in 5 2/3
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Re: World Series- Call it!

Post by jiminphilly »

I have no problem with the suspended game nor do I have any issue with Selig stating the game would not end in a rainout. The WS should never end in a rainout. But the field was in absolutely no condition to be played on in the 6th inning and the Rays should not be gaining an advantage by starting the bottom of the 6th when the game resumes with a clean mound.

Why did they change the suspended game rule?
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Re: World Series- Call it!

Post by jiminphilly »

Great article from Bill Conlin.

Bill Conlin: On a rainy night in Philly, MLB drops the ball
By Bill Conlin
Philadelphia Daily News

Daily News Sports Columnist

'ONE DAY it started raining, and it didn't quit for four months. We been through every kind of rain there is. Little bitty stingin' rain . . . and big ol' fat rain. Rain that flew in sideways. And sometimes rain even seemed to come straight up from underneath.'' - Forrest Gump, describing Vietnam rain
It began during Rays batting practice, a fine mist with the texture used to moisten indoor plants wilting from low humidity.

Then it increased - in dribs and drabs, so to speak - to what I fondly call "Chub Feeney Rain." It is rain substantial enough to cause umbrellas to pop open in the stands. Chub Feeney rain was what fell in swirling curtains during the anti-climactic Game 4 of the 1977 National League Championship Series - the night after the civic trauma of Black Friday. A sycophant held an umbrella over National League president Chub Feeney, who bravely soldiered on while the post-Tommy John surgery Tommy John outpitched Steve Carlton. Lefty's stand-tall-and-fall delivery was ill-suited to the slick mound conditions, while John used the smoke and mirrors he later passed down to Jamie Moyer.

The region was too deep in shock to realize the Dodgers won the pennant - and even if the Phillies had won, they still would have needed a Game 5 victory.

Here, last night, it was somewhere between mist and Chub Feeney rain when the ground crew actually hosed down the infield in a show that seemed to be the Lords of Major League Baseball saying, "Monday Night Football our butts. We're playing this game come hell or high water, so to speak."

And play they did. Or at least they got in five and a half disgrace-tainted innings. It was in the low 40s when Cole Hamels delivered his first pitch to Rays leadoff hitter Akinori Iwamura. A keening wind hammered at his well-stretched back.

Before the game went totally to watery hell, Shane Victorino ripped a bases-loaded single in the first for a 2-0 lead off lefthander Scott Kazmir. Rays first baseman Carlos Pena arose from his profound lumber slumber with a fourth-inning double off the fence in right high enough to bring rain - were it not already raining. Fellow slumper Evan Longoria sliced the Phils' lead in half with a single to left that raised a rooster tail of spray aquaplaning to Pat Burrell.

And by the bottom of the inning and with the KPHL Doppler radar showing that South Philly was on the edge of a curtain of moderate rain - stinging rain, thanks to the blustery wind pushing it - half the crowd was waving rally towels, half was drying their faces with them. Not even Forrest Gump himself would play in that kind of weather.

Kazmir walked Ryan Howard and Burrell, then left with a pitch count of 103. Longoria stood uncomfortably in a growing puddle behind third base. The basepaths were turning into glop. The mound was a skating rink. An army of ground-crew ants scurried out with bags of quick-dry clay and tried to stem Mother Nature's onslaught.

Phillies fan and climatologist extraordinary Joe Bastardi had fired off an angry 6:30 p.m. update to his blog on AccuWeather's professional site under the headline: "Cancel the Game Tonight."

Bastardi wrote there was no way in hell or Sea World the rain would let up. Indeed, a rapidly developing coastal storm off the Mid-Atlantic States had slowed the progress of a massive upper low funneling cold air across the Great Lakes. Result: The worst weather fiasco in World Series history and another stain on the boobs who run the cash-obsessed national pastime.

Bastardi's take: "Cancel the game tonight, and even tomorrow, and then play this when it's warmer, less windy and there is not precip in the air. It's the World Series, for goodness sakes . . . "

Tell that to the used-car salesman running baseball and a Fox network paranoid over the prospect of being forced to play a Friday night makeup game, when America is off watching high school football in thousands of towns.

With two outs in the sixth, a trained seal named Hamels was pitching while surrounded by an infield closer to an Everglade than major league. And when

Pena splashed a single to left, B.J. Upton belly-surfed across the plate with the tying run.

The game had splashed totally out of control.

At 10 p.m., Bastardi was foaming at the mouth. The hurricane and winter-storm expert led an update with this headline:

"Stupid Is As Stupid Does:

"I am a Phillies fan and I hope they win. But why are they playing this game tonight? It stinks for both teams, stinks

for the fans and as the rain explodes [around] them, it doesn't prove anything. I want to see my team win, but the championship of this sport should be played in better conditions. It's coming down so hard, it looks like it's snowing now . . . "

MLB president, COO and flak-catcher Bob DuPuy had to know that by the late- afternoon updates of a rapidly deteriorating situation involving bad weather to the west, east and south, chances of getting the game played without serious interruption were down to slim and none.

If I knew it and flashed a midafternoon heads up to my office along with a GFS Rapid Update depiction that showed the entire region under a soaking rain that would grow heavier as the night ran past midnight, why didn't MLB's jokers know it?

Selig said that as of 6:30 p.m. only a tenth of an inch of rain was forecast to fall between game time and midnight. About the same time that Bastardi called for a cancellation.

At 6:30 p.m., rain was falling without a break from the Carolinas through Central Pennsylvania at an intensity and coverage that was rapidly expanding.

And why did a crew of umpires that has performed at a rookie-league level throughout the Series wait until the Rays tied it, 2-2, in the top of the sixth to order the ground crew to cover the partially submerged infield?

Selig said the game will be resumed "whenever appropriate" to guarantee safety and fair competition. "We're not going to resume until we have decent weather conditions," the commissioner said. "We'll stay here if we have to celebrate Thanksgiving here."

A Perfect Storm has put Game 5 into the most bizarre hold since the 10-day earthquake postponement in 1989. Too bad the imperfect men running Major League Baseball performed like landlubbers trying to sail an America's Cup yacht in a hurricane.

Bud, you're no Chub Feeney. *
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Re: World Series- Call it!

Post by Mikey »

jiminphilly wrote:I have no problem with the suspended game nor do I have any issue with Selig stating the game would not end in a rainout. The WS should never end in a rainout. But the field was in absolutely no condition to be played on in the 6th inning and the Rays should not be gaining an advantage by starting the bottom of the 6th when the game resumes with a clean mound.

Why did they change the suspended game rule?
If you've got no problem with it, then why are you bitching about it?
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Re: World Series- Call it!

Post by jiminphilly »

Mikey wrote:
jiminphilly wrote:I have no problem with the suspended game nor do I have any issue with Selig stating the game would not end in a rainout. The WS should never end in a rainout. But the field was in absolutely no condition to be played on in the 6th inning and the Rays should not be gaining an advantage by starting the bottom of the 6th when the game resumes with a clean mound.

Why did they change the suspended game rule?
If you've got no problem with it, then why are you bitching about it?

I'm bitching about Selig's decision to allow the game to continue into the 6th inning and make no mistake about it- Bud himself was making all the decisions at that point, not the umps. Everyone and their mother could tell by the radar that Fox kept putting up that this storm was not going way nor was it going to lighten up. The Rays gained a competitive advantage in starting the 6th inning that the Phillies will not get in the bottom of the inning when play is resumed. Cole Hamels admitted he could not throw his changeup b/c of the condition of the ball. One of the Rays relief pitchers admitted that the game should have stopped after the failed attempt by Rollins. That failed attempt at a routine pop-up in which he had absolutely no shot at catching in the top half of the 5th along with the umps not calling the infield fly rule in the bottom half of the inning due to the conditions should have been enough evidence that the best thing to do was to suspend the game after 5 especially if they knew this game was going 9 innings. But their decision to start the 6th when conditions were clearly at their worst was total bullshit on many many levels.
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Re: World Series- Call it!

Post by Shoalzie »

That would've been an awful way to end a World Series...glad they at least stopped the game when they did and hopefully they finish in better conditions. Whether they should've played the game in the first place...that's up for debate but it would've been one of the biggest embarrassments for league to have their champion won in a rain-shortened game. Props to the fans that stuck it out but I don't think any of them would've wanted to leave early and risk missing a championship celebration. It's a bad break for the Phillies since Hamels isn't going to be able to continue pitching...at least I assume he won't.
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Re: World Series- Call it!

Post by MuchoBulls »

Bucmonkey wrote:be nice to extend this series out another game at least.
I hope so too, especially since I have tickets for Game 6.

I couldn't tell what was more painful last night, watching Selig try to explain the situation or how painful it was to get it out of his mouth.
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