Here's some shit to ponder

[Tom In VA]

RACK PSUFAN


88, cool. I think most dude's are liberal in college, mostly, because so many hot chicks are liberal and the dude's are trying to get laid. That's human nature kicking in.

Hell I ran with Dead Heads, fell in love with the music and even certain aspects of "the scene". Not all Dead Heads were "hippies" and leftists but those that were, what always struck me as ironic was that profiteering was OKAY when it involved getting money to go to the next show in the next town or getting/selling some doses or shrooms. There was also, of course, college and the professors who would decry profiteers, the profit motive, etc.. etc.. sitting high atop their "ivory tower" of comfort and contemplation.

[Mikey]

What ever gave you the idea that being politically "liberal" means you're against making a profit?

I guess true "conservatives" would be in favor of the fuedal system.

[Tom In VA]

I wasn't referring to "politically liberal", I was referring to people who on one hand were vocal about their disdain for profit motive while at the same time - engaging in their own profiteering.

Sort of like our current Administration and Congressional majority leaders.

[Dinsdale]

WTF is wrong with you people?

but you can't quit wiping your ass.

Exactly how long are all of you not named PSUFan going to leave this one sitting on the tee?

[PSUFAN]

but you can't quit wiping your ass.

Ooooooh yes, you can.

Sin, me

[LTS TRN 2]

In fact, if Phil had been on his game, he could have cut Friedman up like sushi. He could have pointed out, for example, that Capitalist expansion has only worked during those relatively short periods of post-war divvying of the loot, as it were.

Then Phil would have pointed out to Friedman the many instances in human history in which socialist economies have flourished, such as, for example _________________________

_________________________

As I pointed out, and as you can see for yourself, Friedman (and O'Reilly, same technique, louder) doesn't allow full responses. He interrupts and plows ahead with his abstractions and logic fallacies. In fact, Phil could have pointed out any number of European models that incorporate various degrees of socialist policy. Same with Japan. But with Friedman and his ilk, it's all a very simplistic dichotomy. Either Free market (i.e., totally deregulated!) or it's Soviet totalitarianism.
But moreover, Phil could have pounded him like an abalone by describing the vast array of historical models in which great and powerful nation state/empires were led to ruin by virtue of their distinctly "Capitalist" policy of somehow expecting a future of endless expansion and consumption. For example, Rome. And the Mayans. On a much smaller, but equally demonstrative example, the original Easter Island culture.

The point is that the notion of an ever expanding market, an ever rising profit, and ever expanding production, is childishly naive. And that this constant growth should be necessary to the system is quite simply suicidal. And...as you can see by the fact that our debt based economy (since Reagan took office in '80) has indeed been revealed as a gigantic Ponzi scheme, well...what the fuck is your argument?

Look, you presume to offer some kind of retort, yet you can't deal with my first observation:

Capitalist expansion has only worked during those relatively short periods of post-war divvying of the loot, as it were. In America, this was the 1950's through the 1990's, to be generous. Accompanying these spurts of conspicuous gorging in the victor society has always been a pattern of a larger group of societies being subjugated to supply the thriving Free Market societies. In America's case we can see a concerted effort on the part of the CIA and so forth to essentially bring the entire region of Central and South America into the American portfolio of client states--non-union sweat shop zones of carefully maintained underdevelopment. This is why the U.S. military has invaded Central and South America over thirty times since WWII. And why they resent us so much.

Friedman's "theory" of Free Market Capitalism is based ultimately on the utterly immature and childish supposition that permanent expansion of markets are somehow possible. To understand the bizarre tunnel-vision of this idiocy, consider the source, Ayn Rand and her book, "The New Left: The Anti-Industrial Revolution," where the ranting harpy inveighs her bile against the "hippies" and other environmentalists. She of course has been proven a joke, Greenspan was last seen appearing to be in a state of shock as he appeared before congress, and Friedman is dead. We now have to deal with the disaster wrought by the utter Ponzi scam that has been Free Market Capitalism.

[LTS TRN 2]

the utter Ponzi scam that has been Free Market Capitalism.

As opposed to.....?

We're all open to suggestion here. What've you got. Lay out it out for us. Lead us out of the economic wilderness.

You may begin at any time.

Sure...first, for the immediate jump start, all mortgages are dropped to a very low number. All of 'em. Second, we cut off aid to Israel and thus eliminate the entire (fake) War On Terror almost overnight. Third, we restore corporate taxes and make sure they actually get paid. These three steps alone will more than save our economy. Now as for moving ahead in a sane and viable fashion, we go Universal Health care just like Japan. If you think it doesn't work, you've been lied to. And then tremendous investment in education--with all that money not going into the Military Industrial etc. And more...

Next thing you know....

[LTS TRN 2]

LTSTRN2-

McDonald's and Wal-Mart profits are going through the roof at a time when Starbucks is losing its ass. Their products haven't changed appreciably, but the spending habits of the average Joe sure have.

Take the oil companies. Exxon Mobil and the other companies were reaping the benefit of their billions in private investment in 2007 and 2008. But now that oil prices have hit the dumper and these companies are not bringing in the record profits at the pace they were before...

You scoff at the Roman empire. It existed for 700 years and only collapsed when its government debased money in an attempt to maintain itself. (actually , about 1000, with about 500 as republic and 500 as Empire)

And you scoff at Ayn Rand and her ideals. But she was right.

Get government out of the way and let the people flourish. We will all benefit from it.

End of rant.

Nice rant, really. I've trimmed it to your actual take. And ...you are seriously walking around in a coal mine. As Pollyannish as you regard the good folks of WalMart and the Golden Arches, and as ludicrously as you attack "socialists," you seem stumblingly unaware of just what has occurred--and who and what is to blame.

pssssssst....

this (very) weaselly little slime ball is supposed to be "very good with money".... :o


and ..this little weasel went to jail...


and this little weasel said , "let's start a war!"


and this little weasel ran....around in a desperate nervous panic--and then called his lawyer


'cept he's fucking dead!



Now...start waking up!

[Wolfman]

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."

Ayn Rand
Nobody's listening.

[Dinsdale]

Did LTS Tard really just counter 88's wonerful rant about Constitutional capitalism (which I agreed with just about every word of... except "point in time" which is a grammatical pet peeve for me) by making mention of Alan Greenspan?


WHOA!

Yo, Let's Turn 3 -- Greenspan's former job was grossly at odds with Constitutional capitalism.

As are Fannie McFredstein. And a whole bunch of other fedral bullshit.

It really got started when Lincoln decided therewas profit to be made and wheels to grease by overturning the 10th Amendment.

[titlover]

the utter Ponzi scam that has been Free Market Capitalism.

As opposed to.....?

We're all open to suggestion here. What've you got. Lay out it out for us. Lead us out of the economic wilderness.

You may begin at any time.

Sure...first, for the immediate jump start, all mortgages are dropped to a very low number. All of 'em. Second, we cut off aid to Israel and thus eliminate the entire (fake) War On Terror almost overnight. Third, we restore corporate taxes and make sure they actually get paid. These three steps alone will more than save our economy. Now as for moving ahead in a sane and viable fashion, we go Universal Health care just like Japan. If you think it doesn't work, you've been lied to. And then tremendous investment in education--with all that money not going into the Military Industrial etc. And more...

Next thing you know....

wow, dude. you really fukken need some help.

[PSUFAN]

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."

Ayn Rand
Nobody's listening.

What a steaming load of childish bullshit. "An unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others" is as perfect a description of capitalism as it is of socialism. What exactly allows even the most "free" economy to exist? Force.

Our own economy is ultimately based on the threat of force. We take shit from the weaker guy, and either he likes it or we crush him.

I am very thankful that our forefathers secured access to resources for us. We have benefited from this - we live comfortably. We shouldn't kid ourselves that this was achieved by a pious group of saints, however.

No one should listen to Rand - unless they like smoke to be blown up their assholes.

[Dinsdale]

Something else to ponder...

The mad rush to accept socialism, despite its monumental failure in every attempt by large nations.


If I come up with some radical new technology... where's my incentive to develop it and get it implimented, if the government is just going to sieze my profits?

It would be in my better interest... and as badly as socialist tards want to believe otherwise, human beings will ALWAYS act in their own better interest, and always have... but it's in my better interest to keep my technological breakthrough to another country, where I can actually reap the benefits of my hard work.

We're very foolishly creating yet another environment for American failure by removing incentive, while creating incentive to take our ideas away from the USA, since excellence is no longer rewarded.

Simple fucking supply/demand economics combined with basic human nature... but for some odd reason, we think we've found some magical end-around on these very basic premises of the human condition... foolishness embodied.

Then again, we're dealing with a population thatsat idly by while the government created incentive to reduce lower wage jobs, while importing lower-wage workers from another country, then allowing the government to put a gun to private industries head and forcing them to offer housing loans to the lower wage earners, while the job-base of lower end wage earners was being exported (eesentially by government mandate). I suppose with a precedent like that, combined with an apathetic public, socialism doesn't sound like such a stretch, despite the obvious long-term disaster, which will render the US a 3rd world nation eventually.

[Derron]

Something else to ponder...

The mad rush to accept socialism, despite its monumental failure in every attempt by large nations.

And every ugly Americans inability to read the written word in history books and turn that into a rational thought.

If I come up with some radical new technology... where's my incentive to develop it and get it implimented, if the government is just going to sieze my profits?

It would be in my better interest... and as badly as socialist tards want to believe otherwise, human beings will ALWAYS act in their own better interest, and always have... but it's in my better interest to keep my technological breakthrough to another country, where I can actually reap the benefits of my hard work.

We're very foolishly creating yet another environment for American failure by removing incentive, while creating incentive to take our ideas away from the USA, since excellence is no longer rewarded.

Simple fucking supply/demand economics combined with basic human nature... but for some odd reason, we think we've found some magical end-around on these very basic premises of the human condition... foolishness embodied.

Then again, we're dealing with a population thatsat idly by while the government created incentive to reduce lower wage jobs, while importing lower-wage workers from another country, then allowing the government to put a gun to private industries head and forcing them to offer housing loans to the lower wage earners, while the job-base of lower end wage earners was being exported (eesentially by government mandate). I suppose with a precedent like that, combined with an apathetic public, socialism doesn't sound like such a stretch, despite the obvious long-term disaster, which will render the US a 3rd world nation eventually.

Well that has to be one of the best analysis I have read in a long time..so I am going to fucking RACK that take big time.

History books contain multiple accounts of such situations and the ultimate result for the socialist experimentation. Unfortunately, the stupid fucking ignorant bastards that elect our leaders, are begging for the government dole, because they have failed in the private enterprise system, one way or another, and have become convinced by the liberal left wing socialist government lackeys, that more, and bigger government is the only way you can get your free handout whilst sitting on your fat asses, and make the white capitalist dogs pay for it.

Stimulus bill passing as we speak..but not one dime address's the real estate problem, it just pours more of the taxpayers money down the government rat holes. My 4 month old grandson and his generation won't be able to pay for this shit...

[Dinsdale]

How funny is it thatwe're rushing into a system that China can't get away from fast enough?

They've dedicated much of their policy towards becoming more like us, while we're trying to mimic their failed system.


Something to ponder, indeed.

Obama Bolshevik will lead us to the Promised Land, I'm sure.


But the Soviets got free health care, right? Must have made the place an economic utopia.


And I've touched on this before -- I spent the first 30 years of my life having it hammered into my head how evil socialism was, and that sacrifices needed to be made to stop it.

Now, I'm supposed to forget all that brainwashing that I got since birth?

If that's the case, why doesn't Mao Tse Obama come out and tell me how wrong we were, and explain why the New Way is so wonderful, rather than trying to pull a fast one behind my back?


Be very afraid.

[LTS TRN 2]

Wrong, Dins. If you invent some new wonderful gadget, you'll be able to develop it and market it much easier in a socialist based economy--where the government has an interest in funding the company, etc. If your Randian model is true than other socialist based economies--like Britain, France, Sweden, Japan, and Germany--would not be producing new and innovative technologies, etc. But of course this isn't the case at all. Rather, they have all walked away from us, not only in technology, but health care, education, and basic infrastructure, etc. Certainly the U.S. has the potential to be among the true world leaders again, but don't kid yourself. The malignant "theory" of Friedman, Greenspan, Ayn Rand, etc., has in fact been the basic American business and social model for these past fifty years or so, and we have steadily fallen. The list of criminals I posted are not in any way a random sampling, but represent essential policies and actions of the U.S. in recent years. These guys really do represent what's gone horribly wrong. Of course I've omitted the obvious current facilitators, you know...



But what you parrots of Capitalist cheer leading seriously avoid dealing with is the plain fact that our forty year run of unrivaled prosperity was in fact paid for by our outright exploitation of a wide variety of third-world nations. The thirty-plus invasions of Central and South American nations since WWII, for example. And it's not just America. Consider, say, France during the late nineteenth and up to the mid twentieth century. They had not only invaded Viet Nam and occupied it--and systematically looted it of incalculable resources and wealth--but did so while maintaining a strict policy of preventing any development of the Vietnamese people themselves. For example, during their entire occupation, no Vietnamese were allowed to attend a university. Gee, I guess that keeps them qualified to work in those textile mills, eh?

[Dinsdale]

Britain... Rather, they have all walked away from us... in health care

I made it this far... and consider yourself lucky, since that's about as faras I'll ever make it into one of your posts.

I'll adress this one with another "Hmmm, who to believe" ponderance...


The members of my immediate family who have spent over 3 decades in both the US and the UK, or... you?


Hmmmm..... tough one.


Since the people I've known for over 40 years who are dependent on the British health care system think it's a complete joke -- with the care of major health issues somewhere between "pathetic" and "nonexistant." Matter of fact, they just emptied their bank account to have private doctors/hospitals try to fix the damage thatwas done by the public system (who couldn't keep the cockroaches out of the room, nor the shit off the floor of the room... and was considered one of the better public hospitals, getting high marks). This isn't an isolated incedent -- it's the rule. All the taxation that one would expect from such a massive undertaking, yet you still need to spend your last penny when you have a major health issue.


But don't let me interrupt your dreams of equality-by-force (the only world you'll ever succeed in) with actual reality, or anything like that.


And what is this infrastructure and technology you speak of? My regular eyewitness accounts tell me they can rarely find anything produced in the UK to purchase, which they would gladly pay a higher price for.


But what the hell do I know... I mean, it's not like I'm a British citizen, or anything like that (wait... yeah, I am), with a very regular ear to the ground there, or anything like that, with accounts from people who have lived in both countries longer than you've been alive.


But maybe you're just what they need... can I PM you a phone number, so you can call my people and tell them how wonderful their health care is? Let it ring several times, since one of them is having trouble getting around after being subjected to that wonderful "health care," and is in and out of PRIVATE hospitals that are trying to fix the damage.


I'm sure your superior knowledge would set them straight.



BTW -- any competent doctor from the UK either works in a private hospital, or is in the USA. Ever notice all of those English accents in your local hospital, that you see at a rate inconsistant with the % of British population? Ever wonder why that is? Think hard now.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

The mad rush to accept socialism...

Apart from the hysterical ravings of right-wing blogs, where exactly is this "mad rush to socialism"?

Ohhhh...you mean socialism for the rich. Gotcha, no worries.

Privatize the wealth, socialise the risk.

[Derron]

Wrong, Dins. If you invent some new wonderful gadget, you'll be able to develop it and market it much easier in a socialist based economy--where the government has an interest in funding the company, etc.

As long as you give the government all the profits you make in exchange for your health care, and all that shit.

Government has an interest in funding your company ?? Bwwwaaahhaaaa... smokin the crack will do that to you...try a history book instead of the deke you fucking imbicle..

There is not a government in the world interested in funding your company unless they get all the proceeds....and you don't get shit...show me one example of where the shareholders / owners etc of a private company have any success after government interference..and Airbus is not that company..

But what you parrots of Capitalist cheer leading seriously avoid dealing with is the plain fact that our forty year run of unrivaled prosperity was in fact paid for by our outright exploitation of a wide variety of third-world nations. The thirty-plus invasions of Central and South American nations since WWII, for example.

Yeah..starting naming and quantifying that "prosperity " that resulted from that...

And it's not just America. Consider, say, France during the late nineteenth and up to the mid twentieth century. They had not only invaded Viet Nam and occupied it--and systematically looted it of incalculable resources and wealth--but did so while maintaining a strict policy of preventing any development of the Vietnamese people themselves. For example, during their entire occupation, no Vietnamese were allowed to attend a university. Gee, I guess that keeps them qualified to work in those textile mills, eh?

Dien Bien Phu anyone ??

Go ahead and starting naming and quantifying that prosperity that resulted from the Vietnam war.....I will wait while you do that and get my neighbor over here to read your response...his 2 tours, 2 Purple Hearts and his PTSD might disagree with you.

Shut the fuck up socialist dog..

[Dinsdale]

Anyone who thinks national health care is a great idea needs to spend some time in a VA hospital.

Oh, I have (the local one needed massive seismic upgrades to even be safe).


Nothing brightens your day quite like watching a Vietnam vet with tubes hanging out of him who's still dealing with his PTSD hiding from Charlie behind the chairs in the lobby...


always uplifting.


Cafeteria ain't bad, though.

[Dinsdale]

BTW -- I believe the VA hospital was built in the 1930's, to deal specifically with injured troops from WW2.

Sin,
AmericanHistoryXXXL

[Wolfman]

Years ago I had to sign a suicidal friend into the psych ward at the VA hospital in Syracuse. Very scary place with a huge guard inside the locked door with a key around his neck on a big key ring. Bathrobes and slippers---no belts or shoelace, etc.
There were a few guys in there from WW2--- they used to call it "shell-shock"-- anyone who has ever been near a mortar/artillery barrage understands. Say what you will about gubmint hospitals----at least my friend did get straightened out and went on to help troubled teens for a career.
I have no problem that some of my tax money goes to helping vets.Of course we should be doing a better job.

[LTS TRN 2]

Go ahead and starting naming and quantifying that prosperity that resulted from the Vietnam war.....I will wait while you do that and get my neighbor over here to read your response...his 2 tours, 2 Purple Hearts and his PTSD might disagree with you.

Shut the fuck up socialist dog..

Well of course just like the French and the British in China, the locals said fuck you! I cite the obvious catastrophe of America's Vietnam invasion as an example of how this whole "system" of Free Market Capitalism is in fact based squarely upon just such disasters--the entire continent of post-colonial Africa for example. As for my being a socialist dog, I really don't think anyone's income tax should ever be above twenty percent or so--because if we're not wasting some galling majority of our revenue on the Military Industrial Nightmare we won't need more than twenty percent. And if you have been conditioned to believe that constant (expensive) warfare is the natural and unyielding state of human society--well you've been lied to.

Now Dins, I appreciate your erudition and I do sympathize with what must have been nothing less than an early traumatic experience with a British matronly nurse, no doubt entailing all manner of humiliating orders and probes--and forced to piddle in a cold pail as she tersely mocked...oh , they're nasty...

Was this her, Dinny? Now..did she touch you..here?...did she touch you..here?...it's okay...

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Nicky, do you care to dispute anything he said?

Please -- enlighten us with your vast and personal knowledge of universal health care.

[Dinsdale]

Please -- enlighten us with your vast and personal knowledge of universal health care.

Actually, he exhibits the signs of being dropped on his head by a nationalized nurse, so maybe he can speak to it.

Myself, I was born in a private hospital in Portland, OR, which meant the doctor needed to be competent to keep his job.

[smackaholic]

nickie,

Let's just go ahead and suppose that you are right about socialist paradises funding your private idea.

Who decides which ideas get funded? There are plenty of jackasses out there that think they have great ideas....but they don't.

In a capitalist system, you risk your own dough or the dough of someone you can talk into backing you.

How does this work in your wonderful little socialist garden of eden?

Some fukking hack decides who gets the money...somebody else's money. Did I spell that right? WGARA.

It's really simple, you fukking dolt. If you put someone else in charge of your money, they are likely to take advantage of the situation. Actually, that's not right. They WILL take advantage of the situation.

Why is this soo hard to understand. Let people do with their money as they see fit. Not because they will do the right thing or the wrong. Do it because it's THEIR FUKKING MONEY!!!!!!

[smackaholic]

Dins, I'd just like to thank you for not using stupid assed british spelling like nationalised. notice the upper mexicans dropping it all the time, but, I guess it's hard to blame them as they were a colony like, what, about 6 months ago.

[LTS TRN 2]

I haven't offered any definition of "socialism" in the first place, except to refer to those rather obvious examples of modern nations actively promoting the health and education of its citizens. And while there are unending tales of people waiting on lists and getting unsatisfactory health care, there are plenty of untold tales of just the opposite. Japan is a very good example of a modern nation actually providing for itself. Of course Japan is similarly fucked in the current financial meltdown, but it's hardly their fault.

Obviously the factor which will allow America at least to save itself is to divert the huge percentage of our budget that goes to military spending back into the nation itself. Because while Capitalism is itself a short-termed and thus very flawed approach to long term planetary survival, Corporatism is much worse. And this is exactly what the Military Industry is: Capitalism on a sixty-year steroid binge--morphed into an utterly toxic budget-busting corporate monstrosity. And until this critical situation is itself addressed and repaired any talk of "socialism" and so forth is just balloon juice.

[Dinsdale]

And while there are unending tales of people waiting on lists and getting unsatisfactory health care, there are plenty of untold tales of just the opposite.

Oh yeah?

Cite one.

[Dinsdale]

BTW, for those unfamiliar...


Japan's national health care system is broken, and about to go broke.


And no, I'm not making this up... their solution to this is to ask everyone to pleasepleaseprettyplease pay their bill out of pocket anyway.


No, seriously.


So, since Nicky's example he keeps citing is shit, would he care to cite a system that's actually working?


Their number they roll out are complete horseshit. The reason they spend less as a country, is because they don't actually pay the bill -- sort of an Obama-esque model. Yeah, sounds like a sustainable system alright... if you're retarded, immoral socialist.


But here's a point blank question, Nick:

What believes you're entitled to any portion of what I own to pay YOUR bills?

Did you take a bullet for me back in Nam or something?

There's another word for people who lay claim to that which belongs to others -- they call them "thieves."

[Dinsdale]

BTWBTW --

FACT: The USA had by far the most advanced, least expensive health care in the world, and it wasn't even close.

FACT: The rapid rise in health care costs coincided with GOVERNMENT MANDATES TO INSURANCE COMPANIES AND PRIVATE EMPLOYERS. FACT.

FACT: What Nicky and The Commies aren't telling you, is the federal government already handles 67% of all health care transactions in the United States.

FACT: Health care costs have increased in reasonable proportion to the percentage of medical transactions handled by the federal government.

FACT: If putting 2/3rd of the nation's health care into the feds hands resulted in disaster, only a complete fucking idiot who has never cracked a history book would have any reason to believe shifting 100% of the transactions to the fed would create improvement.

[Dinsdale]

Let's see if Fidel Frisco can connect the dots, and see if he can't figure out why he's A) Wrong, B) Lying, and C) A fucking idiot.

[Dinsdale]

Don't get me wrong -- military spending is wayyyyyy too high.

Unless the Iraqi Navy is crossing the Atlantic right now, and nobody told me.

It don't fucking say "Provide for the common OFFENSE."


Bring every last one of them home from every country. Just let it be known that anyone who fucks with us, loses their capital city, and any further transgression result in the rest of the country being leveled.

Pretty fucking simple, and very efficient.

[H4ever]

Please -- enlighten us with your vast and personal knowledge of universal health care.

Actually, he exhibits the signs of being dropped on his head by a nationalized nurse, so maybe he can speak to it.

Myself, I was born in a private hospital in Portland, OR, which meant the doctor needed to be competent to keep his job.

Myself, I was born in a University hospital full of interns and medicaid patients. Now I enjoy beer, pornography, and football...I think I turned out alright.

[poptart]

What a steaming load of childish bullshit. "An unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others" is as perfect a description of capitalism as it is of socialism. What exactly allows even the most "free" economy to exist? Force.

Our own economy is ultimately based on the threat of force. We take shit from the weaker guy, and either he likes it or we crush him.

How do you imagine socialist/communist nations have secured and maintained land and resources, if not by force?

Take your time.


It's very evident that the country's founders drew up the Constitution so as to reign in government while expanding personal liberty.

This bill turns that on it's head, to say the very least.

Every bit of government spending this bill calls for could be done by PRIVATE entities.
And if there is something that could not be provided by a private entitiy, then it sure as hell isn't worth having.

It's common sense that when a private party has HIS money on the line in an endeavor, he sees to it that it is cost-efficient.
But whenever the gov does something you have dipshits slacking, passing the buck, and saying, "Fuck it, 'the gov' is paying for this mess."

Waste and incompetence ... at the taxpayer's expense.
Inevitably.


There was a season for a lot of us when we sat in a college classroom and listened to our ponytailed prof' expound on the virtues of socialism, while trashing capitalism ... inbetween sips of his double frappucino.

We soaked it in, thought it sounded cool, fresh, ... rebellious.

We went back to our dorm, fired up a doobie or two, thought about it some more, jerked off ... and then went over to the registrar's office to make sure mommy and daddy had in fact made the tuition payment on time.

If you're a working adult and you're still drinking the kool aid your ponytailed prof' is mixing up, you are quite simply one sad and stupid motherfucker.

[Tom In VA]

No reason to lose hope. This doesn't have to last. And as Biden said, there is a 30% chance it MIGHT do some good.

[XXXL]

BTW -- I believe the VA hospital was built in the 1930's, to deal specifically with injured troops from WW2.

Sin,
AmericanHistoryDinsdale

Fixed that 4 ya :)

[PSUFAN]

How do you imagine socialist/communist nations have secured and maintained land and resources, if not by force?

Take your time.

You might take the time to notice that I never said anything like that - or that I am not advocating socialism over capitalism, or any other system. I'm reacting to a particularly short-sighted and ill-placed Ayn Rand blurb that was posted in the thread - one that could equally true for either side of the zealot spectrum.

[poptart]

PSU, what you've done is take on the postmodern squid line of thinking that everything is sort of ... ok ... in it's own way.

Instead of taking UP for capitalism, you posted this ...

Hell, capitalism has gone well, until...

Hell, socialism has gone well, until...

Hell, instant replay has gone well, until...

Hell, communism has gone well, until...

Why would you lump socialism and communism right in with capitalism?

If you have no conviction that capitalism is better than communism, then just say so.

The quote from Ayn Rand, "Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others." which Wofman posted, is absolutely correct.

Her take is based on a model of government which would already be in place.

It's a given that ANY nation with political system gets established and maintained by force ... or threat of force.


If you took two groups 100 random people and placed them each on equal isolated islands, one operating with communism and one operating with capitalism, it is MY belief that if we checked back in 50 years, the one set up with capitalism would be a MUCH stronger, vibrant, and healthy society than the one set up with communism.

As 88 pointed out, there ARE some big gainers in a capitalist system, but the middle tends to get pulled UP in such a system, whereas in communism there is little incentive to rise, and everyone just sort of bunches together in a sub-mediocre glob of ... "Oh well, so what?"

[Diego in Seattle]

As 88 pointed out, there ARE some big gainers in a capitalist system, but the middle tends to get pulled UP in such a system, whereas in communism there is little incentive to rise, and everyone just sort of bunches together in a sub-mediocre glob of ... "Oh well, so what?"

And you think the middle & lower classes have been pulled up in the last twenty years? Where do you think the incentive is to work hard for those who have done exactly that & fallen behind?

Those who mock socialism are usually the ones who embrace capitalistic feudalsim (I'm not for complete socialism, but we need to move closer in that direction than capitalism to get this economy going).