President Hussein's changes to Freedom of Info Act

[Left Seater]

President Hussein has proposed sweeping changes to the Government's reaction to the Freedom of Information Act. I agree and I think that an open government is the only way to go. However, there is one problem with the act that has never been addressed, cost. Let me give you a little background.

I am an elected member of my local Municipal Utility District. If you don't know what one is (.m2blue) this link will give you an over view. http://www.jbgoodwin.com/knowmud.htm

After President Hussein was sworn in our local district along with 700 other districts in the state recieved a request from someone wanting all records, email, letters, face to face conversations, etc, etc, the districts or directors had with Senator Hutchison. Our district is forced to go back to 1989 and search thru all of our archives for anything that has her name anywhere near it. (Federal law requires us to keep records for 20 years)

As such our law firm, who also represents many of the other districts on this request, will have to spend thousands of hours to fulfill this request. The only thing we can charge the company or person making the request is for copies. All of the man hours are unrecoverable. My district expects a bill of close to $50,000 to comply with this request. Not a small amout of money for us. As such we are not lowering our tax rate this year as expected. Each penny we lower the tax rate is a reduction of about $30,000 in tax revenue. Most of the other districts are in the same boat.

We are also unable to ask who or why the request is being made. The only other useful info we get is a delivery address. A simple on line search reveals the address belongs to a 4 month old PAC, citizens for elected change. Their office is 1200 square feet a mile south of the Capitol. Using this info one of the other elected directors had a great suggestion at today's meeting. We are going to pool with all the other districts to deliver the info all at once and all in hardcopy form. Our lawyers estimate it will be 7 tractor trailer loads with 70% of the info being duplicate, ie her office sends the same info letter to all 700 districts.

With that said, there needs to be some way that those requesting such huge volumes of info pay some of the burden in sorting thru it all and compiling it. Otherwise you pay for it.

[Derron]

In our state they went as far as requiring every one in an elected or appointed position, volunteers etc..to file these reports listing our assets, our tax records, our relatives..etc..this was required of Local School Committee Members, school boards and on and on..

So at one meeting, a member of the audience asked us on this particular group if we intended to file these reports. I addressed the small audience, public meeting none the less, and told them I had no intention of filing these reports, and if he wanted us too, I would be the first to sign my own recall petition, and we will all resign and you can figure out how to conduct this particular entity's business with no elected directors or quorum.

I said you best ignore this bullshit law, and let some one with deep pockets and free lawyers challenge it, because none of us are paid that well, (at all) and I sure as hell could walk right out of there, hit the tavern on the way home for a couple of pops, and not give a shit either way.

Silence followed, we transacted business, and have continued to, to this day without filing a thing. Other places panicked and their whole boards, commissions, and directors quit and they were fucked.

Stupid government fucks.

[Left Seater]

The law in theory is a good one. Government needs to be open. Problem is if you put an undue burden on it or those conducting its business, it fails to work.

In your example, until every state worker filled one out down to the lowest level janitor you have a good arguement.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

If you had a real job, you'd be too tired at the end of the day to come up with infantile jack-assery like this.
Are you in the slightest bit embarrassed? At all?

[Left Seater]

If you had a real job, you'd be too tired at the end of the day to come up with infantile jack-assery like this.
Are you in the slightest bit embarrassed? At all?

So what exactly is a real job? Further which of my two jobs are not real? What makes a job real?


What exactly is infantile jack-assery about fiscal responsibility? How would you handle same situation?

[smackaholic]

If you had a real job, you'd be too tired at the end of the day to come up with infantile jack-assery like this.
Are you in the slightest bit embarrassed? At all?

So what exactly is a real job? Further which of my two jobs are not real? What makes a job real?


What exactly is infantile jack-assery about fiscal responsibility? How would you handle same situation?

In marty's worker's paradise, everybody only needs to work one job.....for the gubmint. You do what the fukk they tell you. You don't need to worry about silly folks asking for info. Those nosy fukks are taken care of.

[BSmack]

LS,

Here's your solution.

Scan your records into a searchable database.

Make said database available online.

End. Of. Fucking. Problem.

[Derron]

LS,

Here's your solution.

Scan your records into a searchable database.

Make said database available online.

End. Of. Fucking. Problem.

Hire more gubmint workers, create more gubmint expense, tax the evil rich more.....these rich mother fuckers need to learn to give MORE of their money to the gubmint, instead of using it to create more jobs or other added value process's...

Never mind the fact is is no ones business what you make, how much your relatives make, or where you keep your money.

Since there is an overwhelming number of drones working for the gubmint, we only have to get the data from those pesky private business's and private employees, and then we will have every ones information, and are one step closer to that Glory Day, of getting more money from that evil social class, and we can redistribute it to those who need it more than they do, and where the gubmint can keep more files on your activities.

If it is that simple Comrade BSmack, feel free to post your tax returns, account numbers and other relevant financial data in your reply. We need to make sure you are paying your fair share to help the repressed masses that are so deserving of sharing the wealth but having no skin in the game. RACK SOCIALISM...

[Left Seater]

B Smack,

That is a decent idea for today, but paying for that much electronic storage and the time for the law firm to scan it all in is a significant amount of money. Not to mention all the "historical" records.

[Screw_Michigan]

LS,

Here's your solution.

Scan your records into a searchable database.

Make said database available online.

End. Of. Fucking. Problem.

Hire more gubmint workers, create more gubmint expense, tax the evil rich more.....these rich mother fuckers need to learn to give MORE of their money to the gubmint, instead of using it to create more jobs or other added value process's...

Never mind the fact is is no ones business what you make, how much your relatives make, or where you keep your money.

Since there is an overwhelming number of drones working for the gubmint, we only have to get the data from those pesky private business's and private employees, and then we will have every ones information, and are one step closer to that Glory Day, of getting more money from that evil social class, and we can redistribute it to those who need it more than they do, and where the gubmint can keep more files on your activities.

If it is that simple Comrade BSmack, feel free to post your tax returns, account numbers and other relevant financial data in your reply. We need to make sure you are paying your fair share to help the repressed masses that are so deserving of sharing the wealth but having no skin in the game. RACK SOCIALISM...

Yet another rabietic, hysterical, schizophrenic, paranoid, and hand-wringing post that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic on hand from Duhhron and doesn't even come close to expressing a cognitive thought. You are truly a certified quarter-wit. Good job, dumbfuck.

[Derron]

Yet another rabietic, hysterical, schizophrenic, paranoid, hand-wringing post

Have a hard time expressing yourself in less than one descriptive word ?

I know it is hard to get away from your teen age girl habits..."OMG...That is very,very,very cool..."

But then none of us care....I know it is hard for tards like you to comprehend things like that..What was your tard site again ?

[BSmack]

LS,

Here's your solution. Scan your records into a searchable database. Make said database available online.

End. Of. Fucking. Problem.

That will cost a fuck of a lot more than $50K, idiot.

It's also a capital expense not an operating expense. In other words, it will provide value beyond the first expenditure in the form of lower overall costs.

[Tom In VA]

The inference I'm drawing is that BSmack is suggesting a fully searchable document library for anyone who wants to know anything. I.E., no need for a bureaucratic process of disseminating requests and "scrubbing" the product prior to delivering it.

Make it all open.

[BSmack]

B Smack,

That is a decent idea for today, but paying for that much electronic storage and the time for the law firm to scan it all in is a significant amount of money. Not to mention all the "historical" records.

Why would you have a law firm do the actual scanning?

[BSmack]

The inference I'm drawing is that BSmack is suggesting a fully searchable document library for anyone who wants to know anything. I.E., no need for a bureaucratic process of disseminating requests and "scrubbing" the product prior to delivering it.

Make it all open.

Pretty much. Why these documents are stored at a law office makes no sense to me. They should be in a public library for starters.

[Derron]

B Smack,

That is a decent idea for today, but paying for that much electronic storage and the time for the law firm to scan it all in is a significant amount of money. Not to mention all the "historical" records.

Why would you have a law firm do the actual scanning?

Because even at $ 150 per hour for a paralegal , it is probably cheaper than having a bunch of gubmint drones do it.

[Derron]

LS,

Here's your solution. Scan your records into a searchable database. Make said database available online.

End. Of. Fucking. Problem.

That will cost a fuck of a lot more than $50K, idiot.

It's also a capital expense not an operating expense. In other words, it will provide value beyond the first expenditure in the form of lower overall costs.

Typical gubmint / gubmint honk rationale.

After the capital cost their is no additional cost to maintain or administrate the capital asset, therefore there is no cost beyond the capital expense.

[Cuda]

That would depend on how many FOI requests they get and whether or not they can even afford the capital outlay.

Don't forget the updates. Yeah, lots of updates.

Oh, and corrections too, like when a prominent congressman loses track of how many rent-controlled apartments he's got, for instance.

That shit doesn't get done free.

[Left Seater]

B Smack,

That is a decent idea for today, but paying for that much electronic storage and the time for the law firm to scan it all in is a significant amount of money. Not to mention all the "historical" records.

Why would you have a law firm do the actual scanning?

Who else do you suggest to do the scanning? The district has no employees. Everything already goes thru our lawyers office so they would be the natural choice to handle. Otherwise we are hiring another contractor to scan and maintain a huge searchable database. While a decent idea, unless we get some of the handouts President Hussein is throwing around, the expense is way out of our means without a tax increase.

Why these documents are stored at a law office makes no sense to me. They should be in a public library for starters.

The public library wants no part of all of these documents. Further if our district is were to keep all records at the public library, all others would have to do so themselves. Who is going to build this huge new library?

[indyfrisco]

While a decent idea, unless we get some of the handouts President Hussein is throwing around, the expense is way out of our means without a tax increase.

Well, duh! Let's get on it!

Sin,
Liberals

Oh, let's see. Cap-ex only for a database? We've got to have a server, scanner, interface, back-up server, software licensing for OS, database and file access, disaster recovery procedures and costs, cost for group of people to maintain it including their benefits, etc., etc., etc...

[BSmack]

Who else do you suggest to do the scanning? The district has no employees. Everything already goes thru our lawyers office so they would be the natural choice to handle. Otherwise we are hiring another contractor to scan and maintain a huge searchable database. While a decent idea, unless we get some of the handouts President Hussein is throwing around, the expense is way out of our means without a tax increase.

Yea, it's such a fucking difficult task to scan and archive documents that a guy by the name of Tom Tryniski has somehow managed to accomplish such a task with all the local newspapers of Central and Western New York. He's scanned and cataloged 7,486,000 pages and counting. And he provides the resource FOR FREE.

http://www.fultonhistory.com/

Maybe you people should drop him a line. I'm sure he'd get a kick showing a bunch of dudes from Texas how to hook up a scanner. You could probably have some local high school kids do the project for school credit. Jesus man, think outside the box for once.

The public library wants no part of all of these documents. Further if our district is were to keep all records at the public library, all others would have to do so themselves. Who is going to build this huge new library?

Some ask why and some say why not.

[PSUFAN]

LS,

Here's your solution.

Scan your records into a searchable database.

Make said database available online.

End. Of. Fucking. Problem.

Wow...and I guess travel via magic carpet is no problem for you either.

Like others have said, simplified - Open Records is a laudable goal...but you're burdening organizations often unduly. For a really simple example, if a newspaper requests murder stats from a police department so that they can create a google mashup, then someone in said department is locked down while they assemble the stats. It would be great if organizations could convert legacy systems - where they even exist - at the snap of a finger...but that is not the reality of the situation.

I will be interested to see the changes Obama has suggested - because this quandry started well before his administration took office.

[Derron]

Yea, it's such a fucking difficult task to scan and archive documents that a guy by the name of Tom Tryniski has somehow managed to accomplish such a task with all the local newspapers of Central and Western New York. He's scanned and cataloged 7,486,000 pages and counting. And he provides the resource FOR FREE.

http://www.fultonhistory.com/

So dude is a no life having socialist unemployed welfare leech. Tell him to get the fuck on it and do it ALL for free...fucking leech..

You could probably have some local high school kids do the project for school credit. Jesus man, think outside the box for once.

Riggghtttt..that should be consistent and dependable solution to have a bunch of "high school kids" do it. Until the local gubmint drone union gets wind of it and the flood of bleeding pussy blood hits the street.

[Derron]

I will be interested to see the changes Obama has suggested .

Kind of like that " I will post shit on the internet for 5 days before voting or signing it" thing ??

[smackaholic]

Yea, it's such a fucking difficult task to scan and archive documents that a guy by the name of Tom Tryniski has somehow managed to accomplish such a task with all the local newspapers of Central and Western New York. He's scanned and cataloged 7,486,000 pages and counting. And he provides the resource FOR FREE.

http://www.fultonhistory.com/

Maybe you people should drop him a line. I'm sure he'd get a kick showing a bunch of dudes from Texas how to hook up a scanner. You could probably have some local high school kids do the project for school credit. Jesus man, think outside the box for once.

Are you suggesting that dude has personally scanned 7.5 million images himself?

I'm gonna guess that scanning 2000 images a day would be a good days work. it would take around 10 years to do that. If this fukker has done that for free, he's a fukking idiot that needs to get a life. I would guess that he has that amount of stuff because many other people produced it and sent it to him.

[Left Seater]

Maybe you people should drop him a line. I'm sure he'd get a kick showing a bunch of dudes from Texas how to hook up a scanner. You could probably have some local high school kids do the project for school credit. Jesus man, think outside the box for once.

Yeah, that would be great.

Look, everyone knows how to hook up a scanner and save the document. Thinking outside of the box is great, but you have to balance costs against it. So why not finish your outside the box thinking? Is this HS kid supposed to scan all this stuff at the new local public library that doesn't want it to begin with? Is same HS kid going to maintain the huge searchable database? Does same said kid transport this stuff back and forth from the long term storage site?


Any of you IT types have an idea of what it would cost to set up a searchable database for records going back 20 years? Then what would be our yearly maintenance costs?

[indyfrisco]

Any of you IT types have an idea of what it would cost to set up a searchable database for records going back 20 years? Then what would be our yearly maintenance costs?

I'll shoot to answer this from my company's perspective...

We use SAP as our ERP system. I develop and maintain the data warehouse (called Business Intelligence or BI). The data warehouse is a repository where we store data such as financials, accounts receivable/payable, HR, sales, purchasing, material management, billing, receiving, etc. We store it in a SAP product called SAP Netweaver BI (formerly BW for business warehouse).

Now, we have data back to 2001 when we initially installed SAP in our company. SAP is housed on many servers. We have 4 "landscapes" for each SAP instance. Sandbox (S), Development (D), Quality Assurance (QA) and Production (P). S and D reside on one server each. That server has a MS SQL database. We were using Oracle as our database, but Oracle licensing was running us about $385,000/year. Microsoft struck a deal with SAP to become partners and we went to MS SQL to the tune of about $20,000/year. Heckuva savings.

Anyhow, each of the servers S and D run us about 60k. QA and P are each housed on 2 servers. One is the central instance that has the database and the other is an application server that is utilized to load balance batch processing and queries. Each of these servers cost 120k.

Then there's disk space. Our production data warehouse is about 3 terabytes right now. The QA instance is a copy of production so it takes up 3 TB as well. S and D are small at about 500 GB each. This disk space costs about 60k.

All this disk is backed up to tape each day for disaster recovery. We use a product from EMC for backing up our databases. The EMC licensing costs 15k/year.

The maintenance fee we pay per year to SAP is about 1 million for support. There are 2 other developers like me in the company. We are paid well. We have an infrastructure team of about 20 others that maintain the hardware, operating systems and SAP systems. They are paid well too. And the 2500 users we have who access this data warehouse are all licensed through SAP for about $1200 each.

Now, some will tell you that all you need is a little linux box and all the open source software is out there. For a system to be reliable, you need many of the controls and processes in place I have mentioned. I'm not saying you need an ERP system. I just described what the data warehouse system entailed.

[PSUFAN]

If it's as easy as you're making it sound, BSmack - then I guess this guy's going to be pretty popular in the next couple of decades.

[Tom In VA]

Now, some will tell you that all you need is a little linux box and all the open source software is out there. For a system to be reliable, you need many of the controls and processes in place I have mentioned. I'm not saying you need an ERP system. I just described what the data warehouse system entailed.

Not with DocuTron. DocuTron represents the latest in Document Management Systems. Need a document ? Reach into the Cloud. That's right, Cloud Computing, no hassles with hardware infrastructure, those pesky geeks with attitudes and an entire alphabet of worthless certifications after their name. Nope, incorporating the latest in Web 2.25 technology, virtualization, and developers ? Developers, schmelevopers, we have a state of the art sweat shop in India where we can customize YOUR VERY OWN implementation of DocuTron at pennies on the dollar for development.

[BSmack]

If it's as easy as you're making it sound, BSmack - then I guess this guy's going to be pretty popular in the next couple of decades.

What these guys need is nothing more than a document dump. SAP? Fuck, they could use MS access and a Share Point Site if they wanted to go cheap. Mix in a decent automated scanner/copier and some redundant drives and get to scanning. When they scanning's done, get some part timers to do the data entry.

[Tom In VA]

Fuck, they could use MS access and a Share Point Site

[PSUFAN]

Indy, I know you're used to hearing people promise the moon with open source software, but what you're describing can certainly be developed using open source tools. Heck, you downgraded when you switched to MSSQL from Oracle. Oracel is a better DB, but it costs a lot to license. Why not consider tasking your Oracle DBAs - or one of them - with implementing PostgreSQL as a DB? It's as powerful and reliable as Oracle, and unlike either MSSQL or Oracle, it's free.

Sharepoint is garbage. If you want to go the document management route, have a look at Alfresco - also free.

However, software and platform choices can save you money...but either way, you need IT staff to implement solutions to maintain them.

Bsmack, you can't derive useful data metrics from scanned documents. Scanning newspapers and documents is a much different thing than warehousing data. Can you cross-reference murder stats over decades by looking through scanned newspapers? Nope. If you could, then microfilm archives that have existed for decades would have already slain this beast.

[indyfrisco]

Indy, I know you're used to hearing people promise the moon with open source software, but what you're describing can certainly be developed using open source tools. Heck, you downgraded when you switched to MSSQL from Oracle. Oracel is a better DB, but it costs a lot to license. Why not consider tasking your Oracle DBAs - or one of them - with implementing PostgreSQL as a DB? It's as powerful and reliable as Oracle, and unlike either MSSQL or Oracle, it's free.

Actually, the performance between Oracle and MSSQL from a batch processing and query standpoint is pretty much the same. When we migrated to MSSQL, we went with MSSQL 2005. The main drawback to this was that MSSQL did not have compression capabilities at the time. Therefore, our database grew about 2.5 times the size. But like I said, we were not seeing any degradation on the data load and query performance side.

Now, the main reason we went with MSSQL was due to the partnership between SAP and Microsoft. These two companies are working closely to integrate their products. With SAP's acquisition of Business Objects, which really is integrated with Microsoft, it looks like we made the right choice.

Now that we are on MSSQL 2007 and at the latest patch, we can now take advantage of compression in the SQL environment as well freeing up disk space.

I'm not bagging on open source. It has its place. For a document store that is to be used nationwide to house documents for public domain, I'd shoot for something that has skin in the game.

[Tom In VA]

With the amount of data needing to be stored, coupled with - purportedly web servers - there's a host of other things needed before determining which software or DMS you'd use.

Mr. San Man, send me a stream, make it the fastest, I've ever seen.

[PSUFAN]

Sounds reasonable. Did they downsize the Oracle DBAs?

[indyfrisco]

Sounds reasonable. Did they downsize the Oracle DBAs?

No, we trained them on SQL and maintained the same staff.

[BSmack]

Fuck, they could use MS access and a Share Point Site

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY hates Sharepoint more than I do. But you could use it. And it would have the added fringe benefit of rendering the search results utterly unusable.

[Tom In VA]

Sounds reasonable. Did they downsize the Oracle DBAs?

No, we trained them on SQL and maintained the same staff.

RACK YOUR COMPANY

[PSUFAN]

Yes indeed, rack them...Oracle DBAs are usually pushing 6 figures, right? So these folks stepped off a Harley and onto a moped, and stayed at the same pay grade. That is indeed exceptional loyalty shown by your organization.

[indyfrisco]

Oracle DBAs are usually pushing 6 figures, right?

In the city, yes. We have a unique situation. Small town with a multibillion dollar company headquartered here. Cost of living is pretty low here and the pay grades reflect that. I'm banking ok with what I do, but I know I can go to Chicago, Dallas or any other major city and triple my salary. I just don't need to nor want to.

That being said, I do have access to company payroll and our Oracle DBAs were not pushing 6 figures. They were closer to 50k than 100k but somewhere close in between. For this area, that's damn good money. And what amazes me is the competence of our talent, especially from a rural town. We invest in our employees, and it pays off. People that work for us want to work for us for less. It is because they want to live here.