Time for a Second American Revolution

[Smackie Chan]

Are you happy with what our country has become? I'm not, and I doubt you are. Not sure who's participating in the polls being cited in the media regarding the job performance of our elected officials, but I have to believe those responding as being satisfied are doing so by keeping in mind the difficulties under which lawmakers are working, or are just utter dipshits. However, if we give them the benefit of the doubt and assume it's the former, what they are failing to realize is that, as the clip below mentions, the difficulties were created by current lawmakers and their predecessors.

The clip makes some good recommendations, but what it doesn't suggest is the formation of a new political party with enough strength to rival and eventually topple the two current major ones. This isn't a partisan battle - it's an American battle. Democrats will point to the Bushes, Reagan, Ford, and Nixon as being at fault. Republicans will blame Obama, Clinton, Carter, Kennedy, and FDR. The fact is, though, that it doesn't matter who's to blame. We are in a bad position that isn't going to get better anytime soon, and will likely never improve if we stay on the current path of letting Republicans and Democrats represent us.

This board is a microcosm of our society, and illustrates the divisiveness between those who support one party over the other. But the differences between the two are insignificant. Democrats are relatively happy now because we don't have Dubya in office, and a new era of "change" has dawned. Republicans don't agree that the change is for the better. Whatever these changes are and represent, they are cosmetic at best, when overhaul is what is needed.

A large part of the problem stems from the fact that we have become a country of complainers and wordsmiths rather than one of activists. We have no shortage of individuals, myself and most of you included, who absolutely know what must be done, and have no trouble expressing it. But what are we doing about it? Posting on message boards and hurling playground invectives toward those with whom we disagree ain't gonna change anything. Action is what is needed, and I'll be honest - I'm not sure where to start. How do we effect a Second Revolution? Will marching on Washington get it done? I doubt it. It may be a start, but only that. Do you even agree that the time has come for revolutionary as opposed to evolutionary measures? Sure, I'm an idiot for coming here looking for answers to questions that should be addressed by minds far greater than those possessed by the posters on this board, but wtf - it doesn't seem like those with the brain power are doing anything either.

What major changes do want to see this country undergo, and how do you suggest they be made?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeYscnFpEyA

[Arch Angel]

Why do I have visions of Kent State in my mind?

[PSUFAN]

Armed popular insurrection hasn't been realistic since at least 1794, when the Whiskey Rebellion was quashed pretty effortlessly by the Father of our nation. The Whiskey tax ended up being repealed in 1803... The way to make change in this country is to gather support for your cause and get your hands dirty politically.

[Smackie Chan]

Armed popular insurrection hasn't been realistic since at least 1794, when the Whiskey Rebellion was quashed pretty effortlessly by the Father of our nation. The Whiskey tax ended up being repealed in 1803... The way to make change in this country is to gather support for your cause and get your hands dirty politically.

My first thought regarding your response is to say, "So how's that workin' out for ya?" But there is truth to it, and it is really the type of revolution that is needed. Regardless of whether you agree with their platforms, Ralph Nader and Ross Perot took the right approach by trying to work politically outside the two-party system. Their lack of success is likely a combination of not having platforms with enough widespread appeal to convince hardcore contributors of the major parties to shift allegiances and, therefore, donations and support, and that the time just wasn't right. But it's getting tougher to seriously make the timing argument anymore. There are enough issues that could be addressed in a new party's platform and mission statement to sway voters away from both major parties given the number of significant problems currently plaguing us to realistically think the time is right for doing so.

[Smackie Chan]

Great idea, but it ain't gonna happen.

I tend to agree, and it's unfortunate. In your resignation to our country falling victim to inertia, do you see us recovering eventually, or dooming ourselves to the scrap heap of history?

[Smackie Chan]

What major changes do want to see this country undergo, and how do you suggest they be made?

We need to blow the whole thing up and start over from scratch.

And how does that start? Are you willing to lead the charge? If not you, who would you suggest?

[Mikey]

Politicians in this country have always been dishonest scumbags, and yet we've had the best run country in the world for over 200 years. If you "blew the whole thing up" and started over, what would you replace it with?

People with attitudes like this are just too lazy or too dumb to work through the system. Or else they're pathic little crybabies who can't stand the thought the they are out of touch with their elected leaders. Work with the system we have or get the fuck out.

[Smackie Chan]

Work with the system we have or get the fuck out.

When you say "Work with the system," are you suggesting that the system as it currently operates is capable of resolving some (few? all? any?) of our current problems? Or do you mean that there is a more civilized and peaceful way of changing the system to meet the extraordinary demands?

If there's a silver lining to not doing anything, it's that there is no rival country benefitting from our current misfortunes waiting to fill the void that would be created by our collapse. China? Their economy is too dependent on ours. A Muslim nation? Give me a break. A European country? Which one? Russia? Not likely. Even though there are plenty of countries that don't have a favorable attitude toward ours, they are also grudgingly dependent on us to recover, and are therefore not in too much of a hurry to hasten our demise.

[Smackie Chan]

It would necessarily begin as a tax revolt.

But that again begs the question of how to start it. Sending teabags to Congress is symbolic, but impotent.

[Smackie Chan]

If you "blew the whole thing up" and started over, what would you replace it with?

The US Constitution is pretty good place to start. It would work quite well if the government confined itself to those parameters.

What steps should be taken - action on the part of ordinary citizens - to get gov't to do that? As you say, even if it were achieved, it's only a start. There are plenty of other problems that don't necessarily stem from the lack of strict Constitutional constructionism.

[Smackie Chan]

You begin a tax revolt by not paying taxes.

But to qualify it as a revolt, it has to be done on a very large scale in a coordinated fashion. Easier to do when you have a relatively small population in a confined geographic area like the colonies against an enemy everyone agrees is an enemy than under the current circumstances. A handful of disgruntled non-taxpayers isn't going to achieve anything. How should a true tax revolt, which I would certainly accept as a revolutionary measure, be initiated today?

[Smackie Chan]

The US Constitution is pretty good place to start. It would work quite well if the government confined itself to those parameters.

See Libertarian link above.

Let's assume you're right - that Libertarianism is the answer. This should be an easier solution than creating a new party, since it's already established and has been around for awhile. What'll it take to get Joe Sixpack to come around to your way of thinking and throw his support behind it? How can we raise the party from perennial also-ran to true contender?

[Stan Fukkken Pickle]

A large part of the problem stems from the fact that we have become a country of complainers and wordsmiths rather than one of activists.

The biggest problem is that the bottom of the totem pole are having three times the amount of offspring as the people on the top of the totem pole. The result is a smaller and smaller number of people that CARRY the water and a larger and larger amount of people that drink the water.

But what are we doing about it?

I'm going the the TEA PARTY in Madison on April 15th. You can all expect a Stanley Pickle P.E.T. of the event!

[Smackie Chan]

No matter how disgusted we become with the two main parties. People are so deeply ingrained with the idea of being either Republicans or Democrats.

This is true as long as the problems we face are relatively minor and are believed to be able to be overcome by working within the current system. Apparently, that is the case, and our problems are not really that big. But there is certainly a tipping point at which popular opinion, which some consider to be the voice of God, changes our collective thought and forces us to the realization that if we don't take drastic measures, we are doomed. Given how ingrained the two parties are to our political system, a shift toward Libertarianism could be considered drastic. Do you believe we're still a long way from reaching the tipping point?

[Smackie Chan]

I'm going the the TEA PARTY in Madison on April 15th.

Do you expect it will make a difference?

[Smackie Chan]

I registered Libertarian for a few years, but they're a complete joke. All chiefs and no indians. Totally disorganized.

I used to routinely vote Libertarian. If their ideas and platform are sound but there's a problem with its leadership, that should be easier to overcome than starting a new party from scratch. Does it need to be dumbed down to recruit more "indians"? Sounds like its leadership needs to be replaced with individuals who have stronger organizational skills.

Let's move in and take over.

[Smackie Chan]

The platform itself tends to attract the 'rugged individualist' types who don't take direction well. Organizing Libertarians on a par with herding cats.

Then the problem is in the packaging. It needs to be given a shiny new label and better shelf space. If the ideas and platform are sound, it can be sold. It just takes good marketing. Here's what we do:

1. Use the "Cola Wars" approach on the American public. Subject it to side-by-side comparisons, on a large scale, against the Republican and Democratic platforms. Challenge people to make the argument that this isn't a better product.

2. Take a page from Obama's campaign and make this a local issue. Use the Internet and grassroots organizations to promote it. Conventional wisdom said there was no way Obama should have been able to rise from relative obscurity to top dog in the little time that he was able to. There is now a new conventional wisdom. Let's exploit it.

3. Emphasize the lack of difference between the two major parties. It's easier to fight one enemy than two. Make the opponents "Republicrats."

4. Appeal to the qualities you say is possessed by the type of voter the party currently attracts. Don't we all want to see ourselves as "rugged individualists"? Craft a strategy that makes even the wimpiest follower believe he is actually rugged by supporting the party.

5. Package the message in such a way that it doesn't appear anyone is taking direction. You used the herding of cats as an analogy for organizing Libertarians, but what we're trying to do here is recruit people who aren't currently Libertarians. They're used to taking directions.

These are just a few initial ideas that need to be refined and expanded upon. With some hard work and dedication, we can make it happen.

[Tom In VA]

You're the Systems Engineer. Design the system, define the components, delegate, delegate, delegate.

L-E-A-D.

[Smackie Chan]

You're the Systems Engineer. Design the system, define the components, delegate, delegate, delegate.

L-E-A-D.

Jeez, I started the thread, then asked for solutions. Doesn't that qualify as leadership followed by delegation?

[Tom In VA]

Idea guys are a dime a dozen.

Let's start talking a bit of logistics.

mvscal's proposition runs the risk of .... prison ? Does one abandon their family obligation and financial responsibilities to go to prison to prove a point and start a revolt ?

Or will the "movement" vow to take care of the family and children of those arrested and imprisoned ?

[Smackie Chan]

Let's start talking a bit of logistics.

Oh, well, since I am a professional Navy logistician, now you're throwin' it in my wheelhouse.

I still got nothin'.

mvscal's proposition runs the risk of .... prison ? Does one abandon their family obligation and financial responsibilities to go to prison to prove a point and start a revolt ?

Or will the "movement" vow to take care of the family and children of those arrested and imprisoned ?

A small price to pay for patriotism.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

... throwin' it in my wheelhouse.

Is that how you kids are refering it these days?

[Tom In VA]

No it's a huge price to pay.

Which is why "leaders" need to figure out a way to address it.

"Accomplish the mission AND take care of your people".

Straight from a senior NCO for whom I have great respect and admiration. A man needs to know that his family will be taken care of in the event he takes the bullet.

It's fundamental.

[Mikey]

If you "blew the whole thing up" and started over, what would you replace it with?

The US Constitution is pretty good place to start. It would work quite well if the government confined itself to those parameters.

That wouldn't be "blowing the whole thing up and starting from scratch" then, would it?

[Van]

Smackie, here's a large part of the problem...

Growing up, I was highly political, and highly idealistic. Never missed an election. I was fairly well involved in political debates, and political study. In college I even majored in Poly-Sci, I was so into this shit.

These days? I'm so disillusioned by our political system that not only do I no longer bother wasting my time to vote, I barely even pay attention to the process anymore.

I see no worthwhile candidates in either of the two main parties. As a nation, we're being insulted. We're a joke to the rest of the world, when all we have to offer are the Obamas, Bush's and Palins of the world.

Third party options are strictly a waste of one's vote, which means they're strictly a waste of one's time and effort. The best one can hope for with their third party vote is to help or hurt the two party candidate who would've normally received that vote.

Here in California, our vote flat out doesn't even matter. The majority of the time, the presidential election is decided before Californians even vote, much less see their vote tabulated. On top of that, there was only one viable candidate in this last election. As a Californian, you knew that if you didn't vote for Obama your vote was wasted. McCain had no chance of winning California, and no third party choice was even going to show up on the radar.

mvscal talks of blowing up the entire system, and starting from scratch...

Well, jesus fuck, where would we even start?

Here are a few things...

-We ditch the electoral college, and this practice of states counting as one solid voting entity. We are no longer a colonial era agricultural society. It is no longer difficult to gather up the votes from around the land, the way it once was.

One person, one vote. No more does a candidate carry a thirty million person state and all 57 of its electoral votes, merely for winning the state by 2%.

-No more privately financed campaigns. Every candidate receives the exact same tax payer funded campaign budget, and it'll be a fraction of what's spent now on campaigns. No more fund raising dinners. No more outspending your opponent, as a means of winning. Hell, no more spending thirty million dollars, to win a $500,000 per annum gig.

No more fund raising, period. No more being beholden to lobbyists and special interest groups who funded your way into office.

We have to stop this compartmentalization of a term of office, whereby a person's term always consists of The Honeymoon Period, The Real Work Period and then The Trying To Get Re-Elected Period, which effectively ruins the last quarter of any re-electable politican's term in office.

-Flat income tax rate, for everyone. Something along the lines of 15%, regardless of who you are or what you earn.

-You're legally one of us, or you're gone. We enforce our borders, and the integrity of our tax payer base.

-Term limits on both the House and Senate, to equal that of the president. Same campaign financing rules apply, as well.

-Our bloated government is completely dismantled. No longer will governing be a thriving business. The government's job will revert back to collecting necessary taxes, maintaining the necessary infrastructure and providing for the defense of its people. All these bloated programs...all these endless layers of government bureaucracy...gone.

Go back to the fucking Constitution. If it's not described as a necessary function of the government in the Constitution then we need for it to undergo a thorough examination as to its necessity to even exist.

Oh, and one other thing: Get a fucking playoffs already, for BTPCF.

[poptart]

It's utterly APPALLING the degree to which members of both parties routinely snub their nose at the Constitution.

If our elected officials simply REALLY followed the law we would see many of our large problems diminish or disappear.

Ron Paul, for example, was able to make some in-roads within the Republican party.
He (or others of his ilk) might make more in-roads by '10 and '12.

But I really doubt that it'll ever be enough to get him, or another Constitution supporter, elected.

The two parties simply have a stranglehold on the money and machinery which drives our political system.


So Smackie, I think a large scale tax revolt is perhaps the only hope the people have of taking back their country.

Small hope it is, imo, but at least it's something to maybe move toward.

As 88 said, if you could manage to get a large group of the HIGH income tax payers to revolt, some serious shit would occur.

But motivating them to actually revolt ... is the trick.

Out of fear, I think the vast majority of people will continue to take it up the @ss rather than risk the consequences of not paying up.

[Stan Fukkken Pickle]

I agree with Van's post 100%!!!!


BRAVO!

Standing Pickle Ovation

[Smackie Chan]

I agree with Van's post 100%!!!!

I do, too. I also agree with a tax revolt. But the question remains:

How?

Few of us are willing to take on the IRS as individuals. The revolt would have to be on a scale that completely overwhelms its ability to collect and enforce. It would have to include corporations as well as individuals. It could potentially serve as the trigger for the other changes Van and others have suggested. But at this point, they're only words. They need to be translated into actions. How can enough Americans be coerced into taking the step of refusing to pay taxes to make the gov't stand up and take notice?

I don't think it can be done. I'd love to see it, but it ain't gonna happen. We're too soft.

[socal]

Just abolish the Constitution and dissolve the nation with a stroke of the pen. Voila! No more debts to burden the country. What trillions of dollars? We ain't got it. We can become eastern Europe overnight.

[Bobby42]

-You're legally one of us, or you're gone. We enforce our borders, and the integrity of our tax payer base.

Noble task. But we're way too late on that now.

"We don't have enough ammunition to shoot them all in the head. The time to have done that would have been in the beginning. No, we let them overrun us. We are in the minority now." - Day of the Dead

Sick but true analogy.

[TVO]

What major changes do want to see...

I want you guys to stop harassing me because I'm gay and a lawyer.


Why do you hate America?

[Van]

Smackie, if America truly wants a united front tax revolt, there's only way way to get it done: porn!

You wanna reach tax paying Americans? Spam their porn. Let the entire nation of porn watchers know that come next April nobody pays their taxes.

Blacks, whites, Mexicans, Asians...and especially Scandinavians.

You spam those goat fucking porn sites, the Big 'Uns sites for the midwesterners, the Disgustingly Fat Cellulite Booty sites...I'm telling ya', you'll reach everyone.

The next step? Once you've got everyone's attention, you threaten them all with...NO MORE PORN!

That's right. Either we take back this country, or you have to go fuck your wife, or your sister, or your Chevy's tail pipe, or your goat.

See, most of these grand plans of ours involve the need for too many people to get on board. The genius in this plan is all we need to do is round up enough heads of porn industries, and we appeal to their patriotism. Or, we threaten them with fat chicks. Fat lesbian chicks, with garden shears.

Far fetched? Of course it is, but then so was a round planet and a Boston Red Sox World Series victory, and look at us now.

[Truman]

Regarding your initial take, well said, Van. Little to quibble with here other than offering up the Fly Over perspective on the Electoral College.

While I can certainly appreciate the one man, one vote sympathy, our EC system actually forces the disingenuous, lying, shit-bird bastards who seek to lead this country to engage in political discourse in places other than New York, Philly, Chicago, Houston, and El Lay.

Despite the Obama machine out-spending McCain 4-1, bell-wether Missouri remained red, bucking a trend for picking the presidential winner that had held fast for well over 50 years. Something to be said, I suppose, about a population-base capable of distinguishing between the greater of two charlatans. Still, the popular vote would have easily split the Electorate. Instead, McCain was able to comfortably pad his defeat with the 11 votes we were able to contribute.

To hell with this. Count me in as a Conscientious Dissenter. I’m sick of having to hold my nose when I vote and to have to choose between “the lesser of two evils” every four years.

What mvscal said: Every president since TR has taken a solid, square dump on the Constitution. Of course, they've all had help: Enabled by a power-hungry, special-interest-driven Congress quick to fling little balls of legislative poo at the American electorate and effectively change the way we live; and a feckless judiciary that cannot resist the temptation to do a bit of legislating of its own from the Bench, nor has the collective sack to cast out 9/10ths of the horseshit Congress passes as being blatantly unconstitutional.

Lemme know if any of you fellers need barrel staves or pitchforks. We actually use 'em out here in these parts....

[Tom In VA]

mvscal's proposition runs the risk of .... prison ?

What revolution doesn't?

True. But obviously the revolutionary has a stake in something. The revolutionary is "revolting" to improve the quality of his/her life and the life of their family.

What the fuck good does it do to rot in prison for not paying taxes while one's family winds up on the dole - sucking off the welfare state ? In case you haven't noticed, there's a host of "revolutionaries" in prison right now whose families are on the dole. "Revolutionaries" who do not believe the government has a right to wage a war on "drugs", revolutionaries who did not sit idly by while police harassed them, "political prisoners". At least that's how they perceive themselves. To you and most people they are nothing but law breakers.

Where's the line ?

Over 50% of "We the people" believe in what the current administration is doing. I'm not one of them but I know we have the capability of waging a "revolution" in 2010 and 2012.

Who says third party candidates can't get in ?

[Van]

Truman, I see your point, but the reality is the system is genuinely ruinous when a candidate can simply take all of California's massive electoral college vote simpy by being a Democrat, which is what we saw in '08.

Simply by being a Democrat he will take the Bay Area, the greater L.A. County region and the Sacramento region. With California becoming more and more latino, this will only get worse.

The entire rest of the state is completely ignored, as you describe, only it's getting ignored because of this current Winner Takes All system. I'm sure the same thing holds true vis a vis NYC and New York state, and Chicago and Illinois.

Simply be a Democrat, and you'll carry the entire electoral haul from these huge electoral states. The rest of the state's votes will never matter, because the Democratic candidate will automatically carry the big cities.

California's unheard voters are simply too numerous to ignore.

In other states, where simply being a Republican insures victory, same deal. The other side's votes still deserve to count.

[Van]

Who says third party candidates can't get in?

Modern history, an understanding of the political machinery required to get elected and basic common sense, that's who.

[Tom In VA]

If this last election proved anything, it proved, if you can whine the loudest, scream the loudest, be patient, be an "activist" and organize communities, you can win.

No need to go off the deep end. Just think more strategically. The side that won has been thinking and acting this way for a long time. They paid their dues. Sure, there were a few domestic terrorists in the lot, sure there's a host that can be said negative about them - but they won.

Using the tactics outlined by Saul Alinsky. Educate yourself about them, fight fire with fire. Don't be a "coward" as the Attorney General said. Childish people lacking brains will label you all kinds of things - as they too were labelled. But they perservered, raised the cash, infilitrated an entire infrastructure (Schools, Unions, Entertainment Sector, you name it they spread like a human version of the Mydoom internet worm).

It's going to take time. The more the shit hits the fan, the more things will, balance out.

To quote one of our O.G. revolutionaries - in a symbolic sense - "Don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes". I'm not so sure we're at the point for illegal tactics to be necessary.

Oh and Van, by third party candidates "get(ting) in" I meant have the third party infiltrate the major parties .... knowwhaddimean Vern ? Worked for the socialists infilitrating both Republican and Democratic party.

[SG's Son]

Abolish corporate personhood.

End of thread.

I'm so clever.

[Screw_Michigan]

8. English shall be the sole official language of the United States.

Vapid racist fuckhole. --TVO

14. Every able-bodied citizen of the United States shall serve at least two years as a member of the armed forces or in a Community Service Program established by Congress by age 25.

In your dreams.

[Van]

88, why do we even need the electoral college? What possible purpose do they serve, and what argument can be made against one person, one vote?