With the first pick.....2009 draft thread

[Van]

Understood, but the point is they need a receiver. Dungver needs just about everything except another running back.

Plus, Denver has shown time and again that RBs are a dime a dozen, especially there.

Maybe that won't continue to be the case, now that The Rat is gone, but when he was there Denver certainly didn't need to blow high picks on RBs in order to recieve great production from their backs.

So, yeah, in that sense, you're right.

Question, though. Do you really think the 'Duhs' main need was WR? I don't. Like it has been for a long time now, I think it's O line. They have to be able to protect JaDumbass before he's going to be able to find a WR. Oakland wants to run, and to throw deep. That's Al's Pinciple For Duh Football.

Running and throwing deep is all about a dominant O line, which is what he had back in the 70's. He's still living there, obviously, but he seems to've forgotten what made it possible back then. His best QBs (Stabler, Plunkett and Gannon) never had big arms. His best RBs (Clarence Davis, Mark van Eeghen and Marcus Allen) were never speed burners.

Cliff Branch and James Lofton were speed burners, but Biletnikoff, Tim Brown, Todd Christenson and Dave Caspar sure weren't.

Oakland's success was built on Art Shell, Gene Upshaw, Jim Otto, Dave Dolby and Henry Lawrence. It was built from the inside out. Al seems to've forgotten this, along with his teeth.

Oakland should've taken Eugene Monroe or Michael Oher, before Bey. They should've taken Brian Orakpo or B.J. Raji, before Bey. They definitely should've taken Crabtree or Maclin, before Bey, even among WRs.

They're the Titanic. Their structure is ruptured. By taking Bey all they did was add another deck chair.

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

He traded down after the Chargers snatched him up.

Seven picks later. That's your... proof?


After reading your previous post, I took a shit. Are you saying your takes are filled with 20 lbs of fiber?


Does the term Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc mean anything to you?

[KC Scott]

All you 40 yd. dash lovers meet:

Troy Williamson - The 7th pick in the 2005 NFL Draft by the Vikings (Who drafted him to replace Randy Moss who they had traded to the Raiders)

A few Highlights - his Pre-draft measureables

Wt - 203
40 yd- 4.32
20 ss - 4.03
3-cone 6.99
Vert - 41.5"
Wonderlic - 21

I'd show some of his NFL highlights but there havn't been any.

[Van]

mgo, I know you've been following football long enough to know there's a big difference between "combine speed," which is straight line sprinting in shorts and track shoes, vs "football speed," which is usable speed, in full pads, making football related moves.

Then there's quickness, both in terms of burst and cutting ability.

Nobody but nobody who watched Maclin or Crabtree play football had any doubts that their slight straight line "combine speed" deficit compared to Bey's matters a hill of beans, in terms of real world football. They both catch the ball better. They're both more competitive, Crabtree in particular. They're both better route runners. They were both WAY more productive.

They're both just better football players.

On a football field, doing football moves, Maclin was about as fast as anybody. Maclin also showed it as a returner.

Bey? He has nice size, and a good 40 time. That's his resume. He didn't do a fuckuva lot else, and the people who scout this shit for a living were all in agreement that Crabtree was the far better NFL WR prospect.

Pick any era. Your best WR was not the fastest guy out there. Randy Moss might be about the only exception, but really it's his height that made him dominant, moreso than his speed. It was ability to be un-coverable, on fade routes and jump balls.

Otherwise? Your best WRs generally don't do any better than 4.45, and many don't do that. 4.30, indoors, in shorts, at twenty one years of age? It's just not going to matter a whole lot, not in Foxboro in winter, not with Rodney Harrison crossing into your peripheral vision...

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

You guys aren't getting it. In terms of draft status, the 40 yard time is huge. HUGE. Wags seems to think there's no diff between a 4.3 and 4.45; and perhaps there isn't much, but to the guys operating the stop watches there IS. That's the point here. Regardless of what we think and what we know about straight line speed vs football speed, cutting ability, route running, etc., it doesn't negate the fact that 40 yard times are a huge factor in the selection process by the guys who do this stuff for a living. Of course it's not the end all, be all, but it's something that is weighted big time, whether any of us agree that it should be or not.

[War Wagon]

Great stuff, Wags.

as good as this?

It's drapes, you fucking dunce. How long have you been posting here?

or this?

Guess that one flew over your prepubescent looking dome...as per usual.

See, I was going to delve into things other than what a stopwatch can measure, things like football intangibles, but decided your feeble effort deserved another feeble effort.

Not sure why you thought taking this tact was going to work out well, you're smarter than that. Usually.

Maybe you were just trying to stimulate discussion, and that's cool.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Great stuff, Wags.

as good as this?

It's drapes, you fucking dunce. How long have you been posting here?

How can you criticize a joke that you didn't even get?

[War Wagon]

You guys aren't getting it. In terms of draft status, the 40 yard time is huge. HUGE. Regardless of what we think and what we know about straight line speed vs football speed, cutting ability, route running, etc., it doesn't negate the fact that 40 yard times are a huge factor in the selection process by the guys who do this stuff for a living. Of course it's not the end all, be all, but it's something that is weighted big time, whether any of us agree that it should be or not.

Dude, only Al Davis weights a stopwatch time like that, not the other 31 teams "who do this stuff for a living".

And we've seen how that's worked out.

Sure, if everything else is equal... but in this case it most decidedly was not.

[poptart]

Nobody but nobody who watched Maclin or Crabtree play football had any doubts that their slight straight line "combine speed" deficit compared to Bey's matters a hill of beans, in terms of real world football. They both catch the ball better. They're both more competitive, Crabtree in particular.

Crabtree is more competetive than Bey?

Well I guess, if you say so.

He played in an entirely different system than Bey did.



Van, you're really setting yourself on a tee by carrying on about how Crabtree and Maclin are superior to Bey, because you really just don't know how they'll do in the NFL.

You are ASSuming a whole lot.

Crabtree may end up being nothing more than a possession receiver.
Maclin is smallish, can't/won't block, and may not have the toughness needed to play at the NFL level.

Those are glass-half-emty observations of those dudes.

This thread may get *bumped* sometime down the road.

If so, a good time will be had by all.



Mgo, the only reason I brought up what Mel Kiper said about Nnamdi Asomugha is because Van said Kiper believes Bey was a HORRIBLE pick ... as if Kiper's opinion is gospel.

It ain't.


And yes, Dungver's first rd pick didn't get slammed like Oakland's did for obvious reasons.

Al Davis is an easy target.

[War Wagon]

How can you criticize a joke that you didn't even get?

I got your lame attempt at a joke, if that's what you need to hear.

Picking on Derron, for shame.

[War Wagon]

Van, you're really setting yourself on a tee by carrying on about how Crabtree and Maclin are superior to Bey, because you really just don't know how they'll do in the NFL.

Nobody circles the wagons like 'duh fan.

One minute, they're starting threads bashing Al unmercifully for another stupid pick, the next, they're rationalizing said pick.

Only you can talk bad of the 'duhs.

It's like abused wife syndrome. They'll always defend the man that beats them.

"Nope, that black eye didn't hurt... and look at these shiny baubles he bought me for Valentines day... 27 years ago. He's really a good man, just misunderstood."

Bitches.

[poptart]

Bey taken at #7 bothers me, Wagon.

Bey himself as a Raider draftee ... doesn't bother me.

He could have been had by trading down.


Let's face it, if Bey ends up being a terrific player, nobody cares where he was drafted.

And if he flames ... this pick will be legend, Tony Mandarich style.

[Van]

mgo, of course 40 times matter. The point is that if you're doing a 4.45, you're plenty fast enough. Everyone agrees on this. At 4.45, you have legitimate separation speed, and you're a deep threat, provided you can at least get off the line. 4.30, vs 4.45? It's just not that important, and it's completely irrelevant compared to all the other factors that matter so much more.

pop, please don't act like it's just Mel Kiper, or me. You know full well it's not. It's the entire draft analysis industry. Flip through any listings of draft analysis and you'll see that the first two picks by the 'Duhs are considered the worst two picks in the draft.

Does this guarantee that Bey will be a flop, and Crabtree will flourish? Of course not. No matter what anyone predicts, this is still an inexact science.

Crabtree's not exactly going to WR Nirvana, either. Mike Singletary as the coach, with the Niner's passing game?? Being a possession receiver would be a step up for them...or Oakland.

I haven't predicted what any of these recievers will do in the NFL, except to say that initially Bey will be nothing but a gimicky situational receiver for the Raiders. I said that until they shore up their O line he's nothing but an additional deck chair on the Titanic.

So, go ahead and trot this thread back up, years from now. It won't change a thing. The fact remains that there are basic tenets of sound draft strategy, and one of them is to not spend the #7 pick on a sure fire late first rounder/second rounder. The Raiders could've EASILY traded down to get Bey, along with whatever else they would've gotten in the trade. There's no disputing this, and there's no disputing that this is how smart teams conduct their drafts.

There's also no dispute that over the past decade the Raiders have demonstrated an utter lack of smarts, when it comes to the draft. This is just another example of same.

[Van]

Van, you're really setting yourself on a tee by carrying on about how Crabtree and Maclin are superior to Bey, because you really just don't know how they'll do in the NFL.

Nobody circles the wagons like 'duh fan.

One minute, they're starting threads bashing Al unmercifully for another stupid pick, the next, they're rationalizing said pick.

Only you can talk bad of the 'duhs.

It's like abused wife syndrome. They'll always defend the man that beats them.

"Nope, that black eye didn't hurt... and look at these shiny baubles he bought me for Valentines day... 27 years ago. He's really a good man, just misunderstood."

Bitches.

Exactly. When they say it, it's being a smart fan, and it also happens to excuse them from the coming pile-on when their team tanks.

When others say it, they back pedal and get defensive.

pop, the reason Oakland was an easy target for getting hammered over these picks is hardly confiend to the Al Factor. No, it's the fact that when it was time for the 'Duh pick everyone and their brother was expecting the Commish to say "Michael Crabtree," "Jeremy Maclin" or even "Percy Harvin"...and the whole football world blew up in astonishment when he said, "A WR, but not one of those guys."

No matter where you were, no matter who you were with, no matter which show you watching, the reaction was the same: "WHAT????? Are you fucking kidding me??? THAT guy, at #7? Al, you're a fucking IDIOT!!!!!!"

This doesn't compare to Mandarich. Mandarich actually wasn't a total bust, first of all. He had a decent little career. He just didn't live up to the hype. Picking him, though, nobody had any problem with picking the guy where he was picked.

This is totally different. This is picking a guy who NOBODY thought should receive that pick, so if he busts it'll be nothing but "I toldja so!" smack, and deservedly so.

[poptart]

The Raiders could've EASILY traded down to get Bey, along with whatever else they would've gotten in the trade. There's no disputing this, and there's no disputing that this is how smart teams conduct their drafts.

That's been my assumption, too, but maybe it's not so.

Some food for thought on Oakland not trading down ...


Giants targeting Maryland receiver Darrius Heyward-Bey

BY Ralph Vacchiano
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

Friday, April 24th 2009, 12:29 AM
Wass/AP


Just because the Giants don't expect to make a trade for Braylon Edwards on Saturday doesn't mean they won't make a deal for a receiver. That's still their intention on Day 1 of the NFL draft.

And their target appears to be Maryland receiver Darrius Heyward-Bey.

According to two sources familiar with the team's plans, the Giants are looking to trade up in the first round with the hopes of getting into position to draft Heyward-Bey. The 6-2, 210-pounder is one of the fastest receivers in the draft - he once ran a 4.23 in the 40-yard dash - and the Giants view him as the big-play, deep threat they so desperately need now that Plaxico Burress has been released.

They are also optimistic they can move up high enough to get him. The Giants have an excess of picks this weekend - 10 altogether, including two picks in both the second and third rounds. They had previously offered second- and fifth-round picks - both of which they got from New Orleans last summer in the Jeremy Shockey trade - to Cleveland in an attempt to land Edwards.

Those two picks, plus their first-rounder, could be enough to get the Giants as high as the 14th selection in the first round, according to the "draft pick value chart" that NFL personnel people often use.

Of course, they can do that only if there's someone willing to drop down to the Giants' current 29th spot, and several NFL sources have said that many teams are looking to drop down in this draft - some for economic reasons, and others because of the talent they feel will be available late in the round. It's not clear just how high the Giants would have to jump to get Heyward-Bey, who made 45 catches for 694 yards and five TDs last season as a junior.

However, assuming Texas Tech receiver Michael Crabtree and Missouri wideout Jeremy Maclin go in the Top 10, as expected, it's hard to imagine Heyward-Bey even getting close to the Giants at No.29. The Jets (at 17), Eagles (21), Vikings (22), Dolphins (25), Ravens (26), and Colts (27) all could have an interest in Heyward-Bey. Even the Cleveland Browns, who could pick up a mid-to-late first-round pick by trading either Edwards or quarterback Brady Quinn, are interested in the Maryland receiver. They even sent a contingent to College Park, Md., to work him out this morning.

[RJ]

This thread will surely get re-bumped mid-season.


Excellent action all the way around on this draft weekend-nice to see Wags, Scott, Trev, Felix, MV, Mike, Pop, Ucant, and other old skoolers bring it down for the first time in awhile. Nice work.



UNRACK the hell out of me for forgetting about the 90's and our road to the Super Bowl getting blocked by the Bills the 2 times we came close......and a fat RACK to R-Jack for the mullet smack.



Cant wait to throw down again throughout our respective training camps.


And RACK 'tart for the latest article he threw down. I LOL'd at the Kiper talking about the Bears front office 'doing thier homework' on Mitchell right before we drafted him, only to change it to 'The Raiders reached with that 2nd round pick'.

Fuck 'Em.

[Van]

pop, your link there only lends credence to the notion that the Raiders easily could've and should've traded down. At least from that link it sounds like they could've held the Giants over a barrel.

[poptart]

Maybe.

Depends how badly the Giants wanted to be held over a barrel.


The speculation and posturing is really endless, so I'll bow out and just wait and see how our new guy and our team performs.

[trev]

He traded down after the Chargers snatched him up.

Seven picks later. That's your... proof?


After reading your previous post, I took a shit. Are you saying your takes are filled with 20 lbs of fiber?


Does the term Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc mean anything to you?

There are numerous articles about the draft, who Cheat was interested in and what the Pats needed. Larry English is mentioned in all of them. You are a certified idiot if you are dismissing the fact that Cheat would not have taken him. In the meantime F off.

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

There are numerous articles about the draft, who Cheat was interested in and what the Pats needed.

LINK?


Belichick shared information with someone about whom he was interested in drafting?


For someone who is unwilling to go on the record regarding what he had for lunch, I find your take to be highly unfuckingbelievable. I am going to have to call utter and complete bullshit here. Have another drink, cunt...

[Neely8]

As a fan of New England I can honestly say that I had no clue who they were planning on taking going into the draft. In reading Belichick's comments afterwards it does not appear that they were overly impressed with this years class. I think stockpiling 2nd rounders for next year was a great move. It appears to be a much deeper draft next year....

[Felix]

This thread will surely get re-bumped mid-season.

you're right and I'll probably be eating my words about Moreno...that kid can flat out play....and given the fact that McDaniels spent his next three high round picks addressing defensive woes is encouraging....

overall, I'd give the Broncos a B- in the draft-not great, but serviceable (hopefully not Kyle Orton :( serviceable)

good god, the thought of him running Denver's offense is just too depressing to contemplate...

somebody, say something encouraging

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

somebody, say something encouraging

At least you're not AP.



You're welcome.

[Diogenes]

somebody, say something encouraging

Chargers
Chiefs
Raiders


You're welcome.

[Felix]

Chargers
Chiefs
Raiders


You're welcome.

that actually made me feel better

[Van]

Same holds true for Dio's heightened mood...

Lambs
Seachickens
69ers

[Diogenes]

Falcons
Panthers
Eagles

Yeah, nobody saw that coming.

Except me and Slash. And the Cards.

[Van]

Dio, if it weren't for...

Lambs
Seachickens
69ers

...the Cards don't even get into the playoffs. That 9-7 record of theirs is more like 6-9 if they'd played in a real division. Beyond that, please, don't try and sell me on their playoff run as being anything all that remarkable. The Carolina win was the only impressive one. Atlanta was nothing and Philly was nothing. Those were two thoroughly mediocre teams who took advantage of a thoroughly mediocre conference, just like 'Zona.

[Diogenes]

Playoffs don't count? Good to know.

And for the record, aside from losing to a pretty good Giants team at the time and laying an egg against the Vikes after already clinching the playoffs, all of their losses came with the benefit of a three hour jet lag and playing three hours early. And the entire west coast got slaughtered playing in the east in the AM (I think there were only 3 total wins all season).

And all of their losses were in games they beat themselves due to stupid turnovers.

[Van]

Dude, do NOT go m2 on me. Jet Lag excuses are verboten.

Didn't you get the memo?

[Diogenes]

Jet Lag excuses are verboten.

No excuses. When your team makes the SB in its second year under a new head coach (better than Walsh did, BTW) you don't need them. I am mearly pointing out a general problem in the NFL's scheduling. IMO, they need to move more of the west to east games to the later time slot, this has been a problem with all west coast teams.

But I'm confident the Cards will do much better on the road this season, playing in the Central rather than the Eastern time zones and having one more season under Whisenhunt (and a SB appearance) under their belts.