Van wrote:Terry, no matter how you slice it, no matter how you attempt to dodge it, no matter how you attempt to frame it to your advantage, the fact remains: ND joining the Big 10 means you're picking up Ohio St, Penn St, Iowa, Illinois and Wisky on your schedule, in place of cupcakes. Would you get all of them, every year? Maybe not. Some years you might, if you're good enough, because of the CCG. Would you get them a lot more than you're getting them now, guaranteed? No question. You'd at least get them the majority of the time.
You like to cherrypick some of the cameos off ND's schedule. But we've been through this before. There will always be some variety on ND's schedule, regardless of whether ND joins a conference or continues to be independent. Where you need to look at this is the permanent games ND would gain versus those they would lose by joining the Big Ten. Essentially it would boil down to this:
Gain: Minnesota, Northwestern, Wisconsin
Lose: Boston College, UConn, Pitt, Stanford
From where I sit, that's pretty much a wash. Maybe a slight advantage to the Big Ten if ND also gains Penn State while losing Purdue, but I don't see that happening (see below).
And there's no reason the Big 10 wouldn't set up ND-Penn St as an annual inter-division game. The whole point would be to get ND there for the purposes of creating a more compelling league. Keeping Penn St on an island and shuttling ND off to play Purdue makes no sense at all. They're going to want ND playing Ohio St, Michigan and Penn St. No matter what, you'd at least play them more years than not.
Except for the fact that the Big Ten is the personal oligarchy of Michigan and tOSU, and they kinda like it that way. ND-Penn State is the only potential alliance within the Big Ten that could threaten that hegemony. Michigan and tOSU know that, and for that reason they'd keep ND and Penn State as far away from each other as they could within the conference, were ND to join.
Let me ask you this: why do you think JoePa was advocating for Pitt, Rutgers or Syracuse, and against ND? Jmho, but I think he was eyeing expansion as the solution for Penn State's lack of a rivalry. He knows the Big Ten will give him a rivalry with Pitt, Rutgers or Syracuse, but not ND.
If ND were to join the Big Ten, interdivisional matchups would look like this:
Michigan-tOSU (sin, Marcus)
Iowa-Minnesota (makes sense geographically, since these are the only two schools west of the Mississippi)
Illinois-Northwestern (in-state rivalry)
ND-Purdue (in-state rivalry, and continuation of traditional rivalry. More importantly, it keeps ND and Penn State separate)
Michigan State-Penn State (continuation of the "land grant 'rivalry'")
Indiana-Wisconsin (by process of elimination)
Regardless, there's no arguing that joining the Big 10 helps ND's scheduling, especially with the way ND's been trending lately, with their ever more pussified scheduling.
You're looking at a single season's schedule, which was the handiwork of the good Dr. Kevin White. You remember the guy: the one and only AD who tried to steer ND into a football conference.
If ND were to join the Big Ten, they'd draw tOSU and Penn State twice every five years each. The likelihood that they'd draw both in the same year is pretty slim, and even if they did it definitely wouldn't happen more than once in a five year period.
It's pretty simple. When was the last time you played a regular season game against Ohio St?
1996.
Penn St?
2007. Not a real good example on your part. And fwiw, the ND-Penn State series is no thanks to the Big Ten, historically speaking. During the height of the rivalry, Penn State was an independent. As soon as they joined the Big Ten, the series ended.
Wisky? Iowa?
1964 and 1968, respectively. Those series were each a victim of the Big Ten's decision to freeze out ND in the 1960's. Before that, it wasn't uncommon for ND to play four, sometimes even five, Big Ten opponents in a season (back in the era of the ten-game season). Since 1968, though, ND has played four Big Ten opponents on only six occasions (1991-94 and 2006-07), two Big Ten opponents on four occasions (1977, 1983-84 and 1996), and three Big Ten opponents in every other season. Those three started out as Northwestern, Purdue and Michigan State, with Michigan replacing Northwestern, for the most part, beginning in 1978.
When was the last time you played San Diego St?
A one-off last season, due to the fact that White owed San Diego State a favor. That he owed them a favor is a bigger indictment of him than that he scheduled them.
Syracuse?
A three-game series that stretched over six seasons and ended last year. Syracuse's program had yet to go into freefall when the series was scheduled.
N. Carolina?
Not quite sure why you have the hard-on you do about last year's game. North Carolina was a decent team last season, and a much better team before Tate went down with an injury (which didn't happen until after the ND game). In any event, that two game home-and-home likely was the result of White's flirtation with the ACC.
Didn't you just sign up to play Army again?
Yes, and admittedly, I'm not too happy about that. I would've liked to see a one-off in the new Yankee Stadium, but I fail to see any upside to a long-term series with them. But fwiw, we're also allegedly in negotiations with Alabama, Miami and Texas, among others. And Oklahoma does come on the schedule for 2012 and 2013. Throw in the rotating game against a third marquee opponent, as I previously advocated, and that offsets any advantage that playing Penn State and tOSU in the Big Ten would provide. Hell, those two schools could even be part of that rotation, so long as the Big Ten were to relax its September-only rule for scheduling ND.
Join the Big 10, and stupid games like those become your one pan of meatloaf OOC match-up per year. They don't make up the majority of your schedule, as is now becoming the case.
ND still employs the virtual conference scheduling model, so the games you like to cherrypick will never comprise the "majority" of our schedule.
The financial hit ND would take to join the Big Ten would be huge, and we've only scratched the surface. The biggest hit would be in donations from alumni. Remember the Call for Change? It seems that the on-field product was not the only thing that came in for criticism in the Call for Change. White's flirtation with both the ACC, and to a lesser extent, the Big Ten, also was criticized. In fact, the Call for Change was signed by a number of major contributors (as in, seven figures per year major) who vowed to cut off donations to ND if ND joined a football conference.
I know you like to pooh-pooh that aspect. But it's one thing to quit following the team altogether. Several people, myself included, probably would never get past the withdrawal pains from this action. OTOH, eliminating, or at least reducing, a $1 million/year donation is relatively easy. From the standpoint of a football fan, there really is no difference between donating $1 million/year and donating $1,000/year. You'll still get to see all the games you want in the latter category. The only differences are as follows: (1) you won't get your name on any buildings on campus if you're donating $1,000/year (although you might not be able to do that, either, if you're donating $1 million/year; the donations may need to be much higher to accomplish that); and (2) you free up at least $999,000 every year. If only ten donors in this category do this, we'll lose more money than we will from the NBC deal. As I mentioned to Schmick, one thing ND has done with its newfound wealth is create a program which guarantees financial assistance to every qualified student demonstrating financial need. I wish they had had this program when I was a student, and I bet you wish USC had had a similar program when you were a student. I suspect that this program would be among the very first on the chopping block should ND ever suffer that kind of a revenue hit. Imho, any benefits membership in the Big Ten might provide would not be worth giving up this program.
A decline in the fanbase will occur as well. Right away? Perhaps not. But over a generation or two, there will be an unmistakable decline in the fanbase outside the midwest, if we restrict ourselves to a midwest schedule every year.
No other school would take the financial hit from joining a conference that ND would take if it joined the Big Ten. ND joining the Big East would be the second-biggest financial hit any school would take from joining a conference. It wouldn't be quite as big a hit as the Big Ten, only because ND would be able to keep the NBC deal. The alumni donations issue would still be there, though.
Terry, for years and years I always held up ND as an example of one of the teams who scheduled aggresively. It's only in recent years that I've begun to give them shit about their scheduling and even there I don't give them nearly the same amount of shit I give to the 8-4 home and away teams who load up on cream filled Sunbelt and D1-AA pastries.
Back in the day, the joke (tongue in cheek, but only slightly) around campus was that the guy who wrote ND's football schedules was the same guy who flipped the switch for the electric chair.
It all goes away, just as soon as ND stops hiding behind their need for preferential treatment. The moment ND joins the Big 10, I'm off their back. That is, unless of course their OOC schedule suddenly looks like Wisconsin's, with only USC still sitting there. If they join the Big 10 and their OOC schedule retains the teams you say are untouchables (USC, Navy and Pitt) then they can schedule anybody they want for that fourth OOC game, as long as it's not a D1-AA team.
Since you're holding up the Big Ten as such a shining example of scheduling manliness, and since you brought up OOC schedules . . .
Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't there some sort of rule, written or unwritten, that every Big Ten school must schedule at least one MAC school every season? Sure seems that way, given how often you see Big Ten vs. MAC matchups. Yet another reason for ND to avoid the Big Ten. When was the last time ND played a MAC school? In the leather helmet era, perhaps? Personally, I don't see much difference in scheduling San Diego State as opposed to, oh, say, Eastern Michigan. If anything, SDSU might be the better team.
If I'm ND, I'd rather play Fredo than Pitt. Fredo seems like the more established rival for ND.
The kindest answer to that would be to check the history behind the two series. Pitt ranks fifth all-time in games vs. ND -- only Navy, Purdue, USC and Michigan State have played ND more often. Fredo never played ND before 1975, and only three times (including one bowl game) all time prior to 1992.
You can make a case that Fredo is a bigger rival today than Pitt is, but that's driven entirely by Fredo's fanbase. Among ND's fanbase, one of the more commonly expressed sentiments is that on the field, Fredo should be an opponent somewhat akin to Navy. A bit arrogant, perhaps, and borne out of frustration, certainly. But there was a time in the not-too-distant past when that sentiment would've had a basis in reality. It's also a pretty common complaint that Fredo's fanbase is classless.
Rockne once said that ND should never schedule other Catholic schools. I'm not entirely sure I agree with that, but keeping Pitt rather than Fredo certainly would be more in keeping with Rockne. In any event, ND recently signed a series extension deal with Pitt, and Fredo is going off the schedule in the not-too-distant future.
