NYC Mid Air

Cuda · Post by **Cuda** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:45 pm

Airplane vs Helicopter

looks like the Piper's right wing still suspended in the cloud of smoke

War Wagon · Post by **War Wagon** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:10 pm

wow - awesome pics. Looks like the folks onboard had more than enough time to realize what was getting ready to happen to them as they went down. Truly scary shit.

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:02 am

If these two can find each other in mid-air...

maybe there's hope they can make missile defense work after all.

Atomic Punk · Post by **Atomic Punk** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:33 am

Aerodynamics test - Cuda, now tell me which direction the Piper PA something is corkscrewing.

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:36 am

Atomic Punk wrote:Aerodynamics test - Cuda, now tell me which direction the Piper PA something is corkscrewing.

down

Atomic Punk · Post by **Atomic Punk** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:42 am

Mike that was good. hahaha

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:43 am

....and left, seeing as he hasn't one of those silly wings on the right side to slow him down.

So, I spose it will be a ccw downward death spiral. Pretty shitty way to end a life if you ask me.

Atomic Punk · Post by **Atomic Punk** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:45 am

Hmm, let's see what Cuda says.

Rooster · Post by **Rooster** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:08 am

From the Piper pilot's perspective, clockwise. The loss of the right wing causes the left wing to rise as there is no counteracting lift on the other side of the aircraft, thus making it snap clockwise and down until the wing stalls from the cg shift.

The helicopter immediately rolled left as the aircraft is a French made A-star, which has counter-rotating blades. The loss of one of it's three blades from impact with the Piper would result in a hard snap roll left, a severe out-of-balance condition pinning the occupants right and down in their seats until the next one or two blades separated from the aircraft as well. You can see the left horizontal stab was cut off by the Piper's wing, which would also contribute to the tucking of the nose due to a significant cg shift forward, also likely to result in the tailboom being cut off if it didn't impact the ground first.

It'd have been a wild ride. For about four seconds.

Rooster · Post by **Rooster** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:16 am

In the second picture you can see the main rotor system has departed the aircraft with the transmission attached to it. It broke free before coming contact with the tail section, turning the A-star into a giant Yard Dart (tm). Think E-ticket ride on the Helicopter Horror at Six Flags to Hell.

Cuda · Post by **Cuda** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:46 pm

Atomic Punk wrote:Aerodynamics test - Cuda, now tell me which direction the Piper PA something is corkscrewing.

depends on whether or not the left wing is still flying or if it's stalled at that point. torque fom the engine would make it want to turn left, but with the nose pointed down, p-factor is cancelled out if not reversed. also, with the right wing gone, there's asymmetrc drag from the remaining left wing.

Mikey had the best answer: down

Cuda · Post by **Cuda** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:49 pm

Rooster wrote:It'd have been a wild ride. For about four seconds.

I'm guessing it was more like 10. How about a compromise at 7 seconds?

Atomic Punk · Post by **Atomic Punk** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:15 pm

Ok Cuda, down is a good call. P-factor isn't a factor on a PA-28 (for example) unless you are starting the roll on a runway. Once in motion, there isn't enough torque to counteract gravity and a HUGE left lifting surface called the remaining wing.

I am being Dinsdalian on this since I've flown those maintenance nightmares for a few hundred hours.

I'll bet the flight instructor was the same guy that signed off JFK, Jr's last check ride. They both have that nose dive into the "drink" down pat. Sucks to be the passengers with tard pilots.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:57 pm

OK - is there just one thread out there where AP doesn't kick his own ASS?

L45B · Post by **L45B** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:59 pm

This happened right behind my apartment. I happened to be traveling for work over the weekend, or else I'd have some pretty sweet pics to add to the PET contest.

Atomic Punk · Post by **Atomic Punk** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:21 pm

PSUFAN wrote:OK - is there just one thread out there where AP doesn't kick his own ASS?

This one.

Derron · Post by **Derron** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:21 pm

Atomic Punk wrote:
I am being Dinsdalian on this since I've flown those maintenance nightmares for a few hundred hours.

I'll bet the flight instructor was the same guy that signed off JFK, Jr's last check ride. They both have that nose dive into the "drink" down pat. Sucks to be the passengers with tard pilots.

Yeah...Piper has a lot AD's out on most all of their aircraft....I don't fly Pipers at all..I did get checked out in an Arrow about 18 years ago..nice plane..but I will stick with my Cessnas and Maule..

Seems to me that Piper pilot dude was likely taking his passengers for the "look at the city" route...right down where a bunch of cowboy helicopter pilots lift off and then back up off the flight pad....that's enough right there to make me never get near one of those "scenic" flights any where...if I am not PIC or know the PIC real well..we are not going.

My choice would have been to clear Teterboro airspace asap, which I believe there were, but then get the fuck out of that congested area by the best way possible as soon as possible, rather than fly right into it. Since it was uncontrolled airspace under 1100 feet MSL, then that indicates a clear cluster fuck in that area. Don't have any sectional or on line at my finger tips, but that Piper had to be getting close to controlled airspace maybe ?

Diego in Seattle · Post by **Diego in Seattle** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:28 pm

L45B wrote:This happened right behind my apartment. I happened to be traveling for work over the weekend, or else I'd have some pretty sweet pics to add to the PET contest.

Do you go to ogrish.com when you need cheering up?

Bobby42 · Post by **Bobby42** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:33 am

"...traffic..."

What?

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:36 am

Toddowen wrote:
smackaholic wrote: Pretty shitty way to end a life if you ask me.
I don't know about that. I hear that fighting cancer for weeks/months/years until you're withered and give up can be pretty shitty as well.

Personally, I'll take the plane crash.

OK, withering from cancer kinda sux as well, but, if making it through that flight and getting in another 30 or 40 relatively healthy years before the big C got me, I'd be a'ight with it.

Cuda · Post by **Cuda** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:50 am

Atomic Punk wrote:
PSUFAN wrote:OK - is there just one thread out there where AP doesn't kick his own ASS?
This one.

except for the fact that you apparently don't know what p-factor is a result of- but then only a handfull of us here would have noticed

Atomic Punk · Post by **Atomic Punk** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:08 am

Cuda, are you seriously calling me out on "p-factor" in relation to flying prop aircraft? How many fucking hours do I have logged in prop planes? I think 1800 or so. Come on man. I'm sure the tard hit full throttle when his left wing got clipped too.

Rooster · Post by **Rooster** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:59 am

Derron, I don't know that you can characterize those Liberty helicopter pilots as being cowboys. While I'd agree that as a rule helo guys are in general more... spontaneous, the amount of traffic, the size of the VFR corridor there, and the congestion pretty much precludes any horsing around in the air. Granted, I have not flown there, so I could be completely wrong, but from my contacts in the industry and the reputation of Liberty says that these guys aren't doing return to targets, negative G manuevers, or anything.

All that aside, however, it must be said that only beauty queens use runways.

Moving Sale · Post by **Moving Sale** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:05 am

Atomic Punk wrote:How many fucking hours do I have logged in prop planes? I think 1800 or so.

And how many of those were you not dressed up like a tranny?

Derron · Post by **Derron** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:39 pm

Rooster wrote:Derron, I don't know that you can characterize those Liberty helicopter pilots as being cowboys.

12 minute scenic flights ? If that is not turn and burn what is ?

While I'd agree that as a rule helo guys are in general more... spontaneous,

Aggressive is the word you are looking for.

the amount of traffic, the size of the VFR corridor there, and the congestion pretty much precludes any horsing around in the air.

To a pilot not trying to make 12 minute turns, and the likely resulting inattention to details.

Granted, I have not flown there, so I could be completely wrong, but from my contacts in the industry and the reputation of Liberty says that these guys aren't doing return to targets, negative G manuevers, or anything.

No shit ?? Just the kind of things I would expect to see in excursion flights

That does not lift the cowboy label off them...I think that with flying the helo, trying to keep an eye out, and making that 12 minute turn, that some where attention got diverted. It is also likely that the Piper pilot, was in a climb and would have a nose up attitude that may have contributed as well.

All that aside, however, it must be said that only beauty queens use paved runways.

FTFY. Farm roads, fields will all do just fine.

Derron · Post by **Derron** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:41 pm

Moving Sale wrote:
Atomic Punk wrote:How many fucking hours do I have logged in prop planes? I think 1800 or so.
And how many of those were you not dressed up like a tranny?

The 400 or so where he was jamming his dick in your mouth.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:18 pm

No one but no one visualizes T1B poster fellatio so readily and confidently and frequently as Derron. VERY unnerving.

Cuda · Post by **Cuda** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:18 pm

Atomic Punk wrote:Cuda, are you seriously calling me out on "p-factor" in relation to flying prop aircraft? .

I wasn't the one who said

P-factor isn't a factor on a PA-28 (for example) unless you are starting the roll on a runway

when that's one place it has no fucking æffect at all. Even Derron is fucking laughing at you not with you.

Cuda · Post by **Cuda** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:28 pm

Rooster wrote: the amount of traffic, the size of the VFR corridor there, and the congestion pretty much precludes any horsing around in the air.

pretty much the same things I hear. it sounds to me like that VFR corridor is a fucking zoo as far as traffic is conerned. An on board traffic system should probably be required for flight in there.

Derron · Post by **Derron** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:52 pm

Cuda wrote:
Rooster wrote: the amount of traffic, the size of the VFR corridor there, and the congestion pretty much precludes any horsing around in the air.
pretty much the same things I hear. it sounds to me like that VFR corridor is a fucking zoo as far as traffic is conerned. An on board traffic system should probably be required for flight in there.

Really ??

Then it would be IFR with flight following, take off sequencing etc and all those troublesome FAA regulations...would go over real well on those 12 minute turns the excursion flights are running..Picture an upside down wedding cake, with all kinds of aircraft, varying skills of pilotage, crammed in that small top portion.

Cuda · Post by **Cuda** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:14 pm

Derron wrote: Then it would be IFR with flight following, take off sequencing etc and all those troublesome FAA regulations....

You really don't do much flying near the big city, do you, you hick?

We're talking about a VFR Corridor- Underneath the class B airspace. Flight following is strictly voluntary for VFR traffic only and is on a workload permitting basis in any event- the workload being IFR traffic being handled. Just how much spare time do you think the NYC controllers have for VFR services in that corridor when they can barely handle the IFR traffic? If your answer is anything other than zero, you're a goddam moron

With flight following out of the realm of practicality, the only options left are: 1) eliminating the Hudson VFR corridor and making it part of the class B airspace (which ain't gonna happen), 2) doing nothing (which probably ain't happening either), or 3) requiring all VFR aircraft to have on board traffic avoidance(TCAS, TIS, or ADS-B) if they want to fly in that corridor- and that's already coming in the FAA's NextGen ATC system, so it would make a logical place to start.

Derron · Post by **Derron** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:57 pm

Cuda wrote:
You really don't do much flying near the big city, do you, you hick?

Hardly any if I can avoid it...have not been in controlled airspace but one time this year.

We're talking about a VFR Corridor- Underneath the class B airspace. Flight following is strictly voluntary for VFR traffic only and is on a workload permitting basis in any event- the workload being IFR traffic being handled. Just how much spare time do you think the NYC controllers have for VFR services in that corridor when they can barely handle the IFR traffic? If your answer is anything other than zero, you're a goddam moron

Your point is taken and correct, and one which I would have made, but you have the time to type it all out. Probably why that airspace will remain VFR corridor. No way is that added to IFR for any reason. It will remain VFR under 1100 MSL and you better watch your ass if you are in there.

With flight following out of the realm of practicality, the only options left are: 1) eliminating the Hudson VFR corridor and making it part of the class B airspace (which ain't gonna happen), 2) doing nothing (which probably ain't happening either), or 3) requiring all VFR aircraft to have on board traffic avoidance(TCAS, TIS, or ADS-B) if they want to fly in that corridor- and that's already coming in the FAA's NextGen ATC system, so it would make a logical place to start.

The traffic avoidance seems to be the most logical step. That will take a lot of the morons out of that airspace alone due to the cost of the technology.

But then again, some bad ass like yourself might like riding some heavy's wake turbulence and fucking up the sequence at a big time controlled airport...myself, one of the main reasons I fly, is to get away from all the ignorant fucks driving on the road, to fly along and enjoy the scenery, and not worry about some fuck 20 feet from me running into me. Flying into that VFR corridor seems pretty dicey to me..but that's my choice..I don't practice that level of skills..I could , but have no need to.

I am alive to fly another day, and those dudes are not. I will stick to my grass strips, and my weekly flights around the area with out all the bullshit.

Cuda · Post by **Cuda** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:47 pm

Derron wrote:
But then again, some bad ass like yourself might like riding some heavy's wake turbulence and fucking up the sequence at a big time controlled airport...

Jesus, Derron, you really don't get anywhere near controlled airspace, do you?

Don't fool yourself into thinking that even though you "don't practice that level of skils" that you could do it if you had to. If you haven't flown into a controlled airport- or even a busy uncontrolled one- on a regular basis, you're a statistic waiting to happen.

Imus · Post by **Imus** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:18 pm

Atomic Punk wrote:Cuda, are you seriously calling me out on "p-factor" in relation to flying prop aircraft? How many fucking hours do I have logged in prop planes? I think 1800 or so. Come on man. I'm sure the tard hit full throttle when his left wing got clipped too.

Sure, but subtract out your hours "logged" tossing bags on and off a cart and sweeping up cigarette butts, and what's left? About 20 hours, asleep, doing a non-rev ticket, sitting in a seat by the shitters.

Ok. We see.

Derron · Post by **Derron** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:03 pm

Cuda wrote:
Derron wrote:
But then again, some bad ass like yourself might like riding some heavy's wake turbulence and fucking up the sequence at a big time controlled airport...

Jesus, Derron, you really don't get anywhere near controlled airspace, do you?

Don't fool yourself into thinking that even though you "don't practice that level of skils" that you could do it if you had to. If you haven't flown into a controlled airport- or even a busy uncontrolled one- on a regular basis, you're a statistic waiting to happen.

OK CFI..Complete Fucking Idiot...I will make sure I look you up for my next check ride...If I was going to fly in some shit like that NYC area, I might...just might work on it a bit...but I don't...and my one trip in this year was uneventful and without problem...and probably will make another one this weekend...and with out a problem...and I make numerous flights in and out of busy uncontrolled airports..but your the fucking expert here right ?..

Atomic Punk · Post by **Atomic Punk** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:42 am

Cuda wrote:
Atomic Punk wrote:Cuda, are you seriously calling me out on "p-factor" in relation to flying prop aircraft? .
I wasn't the one who said
P-factor isn't a factor on a PA-28 (for example) unless you are starting the roll on a runway
when that's one place it has no fucking æffect at all. Even Derron is fucking laughing at you not with you.

Let me ask you this... When you start the take off roll in a prop airplane, are you the only pilot that doesn't hold right rudder then ease off as speed builds?

Cuda · Post by **Cuda** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:13 am

Holding right rudder on the takeoff roll has nothing to fucking do with p-factor. I'll give you a hint why that is: prior to rotation, the airplane is in a level attitude. Maybe the Russian subs (or were they tanks?) you flew were different?

Diego in Seattle · Post by **Diego in Seattle** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:27 am

Moving Sale · Post by **Moving Sale** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:41 am

Atomic Punk wrote: Let me ask you this... When you start the take off roll in a prop airplane, are you the only pilot that doesn't hold right rudder then ease off as speed builds?

Depends on whether the right-seater is wearing gandma panties or not.

Atomic Punk · Post by **Atomic Punk** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:22 am

Cuda, you must not know a fucking thing other than pedo and mental midget are going to chime in.

What level of a pilot are you anyway?